Emirates - a threat for SA Airlines??

[gb346]

Emirates gets another 38 frequencies into SA :eek:

I have heard that they can use those frequencies to fly to other destinations ie. Dubai - Joburg - Lusaka and then return on the same route.

Does anyone know if this is true and if it is, how will Nationwide and Comair (who is planning flights to the UK) going to do. SAA and all our local Airlines will be in the poo.

They wouldn't apply for those extra frequencies unless they had a specific plan.

[taperlok]

All the SA airlines are going to be int he sh1t. Apparently they are going to be allowed to do domestic flights for the 2010 world cup. Some politicians must have got serious bribes for this decision.:ugh:

But according to AV8tor this is the global economy.

[B Sousa]

As one who has spent some money with Emirates, I can say that there has been no bad experiences and quality service..........

[Aspen20]

Sousa

Shouldn't you be selling fish & chips on a corner somewhere

[nugpot]

Emirates is the official carrier for 2010. You might find that the Sa government had some persuasion...........

[gb346]

Will be interesting to see how the detractors of SAA and Gov't sponsorship respond when other local SA Airlines are directly affected by a foreign carrier that is subsidised by Gov't money.

[putt for dough]

Taperlok there is no way in hell Emirates will get approval
to fly locally in SA. Ever heard of a little law by ICAO called
Cabotage?Look it up son.

I sense a troll who knows jack about aviation :=

[ByAirMail]

At least Emirates is making money for their Tax Payers / Government. If S.A.A. could do the same they would be welcome to 100% of my tax money. It is government’s job to increase the government’s coffers by any means. Unfortunately in true African style we have forgot what the word govern mean.

S.A.A. / Africa's biggest threat is itself

[Frogman1484]

Putt For Dough have you heard the term Corruption...look it up, in fact ask one of your politicians , they will know what it means.

[ByAirMail]

Putt For Dough
Does their status as “official carrier” not entitle them to certain routes under a “charter operation”? I don’t know, but they would not spend money if there is no return.
Drive For Show.

P.S. I see you are from the U.K. Don't know if you are familiar with the African way of doing things.... just look at the latest debacle re: the Minister of Health!!

[DropTheDunlops]

I think the most immediate and damaging effect Emirates is having on local airlines at present is, the rapid employment of pilots.

I don't think SA airlines can keep up with training new crews to replace pilots leaving to earn real money.

I foresee a big crew shortage in the near future - not for lack of qualified pilots, but for the lack of resources to train replacements.

This will affect all the airlines, Comair, NTW, 1Time and EVEN SAA!!!

Rumour has it that 120 SAA pilots got interviews at the recent Emirates roadshow. How will you ever train enough replacements to fill that gap? I do of course realise that not all 120 will leave at the same time, but considering the fact that it takes on average 3 months to train a pilot to qualify him/her to fly on line - it will be a tall order I must say!!

[putt for dough]

Firstly cabotage is not one of the freedoms of the air.
The point I was trying to get across was that
countries have laws in place to protect themselves and prevent foreign carriers from operating domestically within its borders.

Emirates will get their return on investment by the publicity
they will get during the soccer matches and pre and post match interviews.
They signed a commercial deal with FIFA and as far as I know, FIFA have
got no authorisation to permit flights by a foreign carrier within RSA.

[gb346]

Its a fact that Emirates got the extra slots. It might only be for the World Cup soccer though. One would have expected a formal announcement with an explanation of the implications to domestic Airlines - or maybe I missed it.

I would agree with DropTheDunlops - the biggest threat to the airlines is the flood of pilots leaving for offshore jobs. Our political situation and the way pilots are treated in SA also don't help to stem the tide.

[ThreeHolerHauler]

I'm sorry gents, but I have trouble imagining a profitable domestic route with a B777 or A340. Especially when their main base is a continent away. I seriously doubt that EK will be buying new equipment in order to satisfy a possible gap in a far-off market. It is the smaller operators who will make it in the long run. 1-Time, Comair, SAX, Airlink, Nationwide. Less red tape and time wasting. Less image and more bottom line.:p

[helen-damnation]

Except that they will make money by doing routes like Cape Town - Durban-Dubai etc. Stay on the aircraft, less hassle etc etc.
Since there are 2 X 777 and shortly 1 X 330 daily, it's not hard to see that there is a demand for the services out of SA and if they can pick up some domestic on the way..............

[saywhat]

OOOOHH look it's another "my willy's bigger than your's thing"
Whoopy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[grgplanes]

Since there are 2 X 777 and shortly 1 X 330 daily, it's not hard to see that there is a demand for the services out of SA and if they can pick up some domestic on the way..............

It's only the extra two flights a week that starts in November that will be operated by A330, all other 18 flights will be 777-300ER. From February when the 21st flight starts, then all will be 773ER.

If they believe they can do it, so let them be, rather have EK as SA's 'national airline' than an airline which cuts back routes more than what they start new ones! In that sense we'll have a few new destinations soon...Venice, Toronto, Houston, Ahmedabad...

[sbh684b]

Newcatle's runway is shorter than Durban and Emirates Operates out of there. Just did the sums, An A330 can do a 220000kg's take off out of Durban at a temp of 35C. Max is 230000kg's. Max zfw is 170000kg's plus 48000kg's of fuel gives u 218000kg's. So no probs for the A330 to operate out of Durban with a full load.

[merlinxx]

Freedoms of the Air

8th Freedom:

The right to transport passengers, cargo and mail within the territory of a state which is not the aircraft's state of registration. (full cabotage)

[kingpost]

Gents, surely you can see that once EK get there full quota of flights per week SAA will suffer in a big way. By going direct from CPT or DUR to DXB and onto Europe and where ever will impact on the carriers domestic loads and international loads.
Give EK half chance and they'll have your market, the price is better and their service is better. They don't care who runs the show, it's a battle for the buck and market share. If SAA just focuses on the "African market", it will alienate them from providing services overseas and EK will eat into their revenue big time.
As someone previously mentioned, Rome is burning, the time has come. I forecast the downfall of another jurasic legacy carrier within 5 years, SAA RIP.

[B Sousa]

Sousa
Shouldn't you be selling fish & chips on a corner somewhere
Aspen
I missed the punchline, what does this have to do with the price of Tea in China??

[jumbo1]

just for info when EK starts flying to Durban it is supposed to be to the new airport at LA Mercy, which should be longer. The big question is when will La Mercy be ready?

[Avi8tor]

I have heard that they can use those frequencies to fly to other destinations ie. Dubai - Joburg - Lusaka and then return on the same route.


I am sure EK will not be using 5th/6th freedom rights on the JNB-LUN leg. That will be pax will be from/to DXB only.

The fact that EK is offering opportunities to SA pilots I think is a great thing. If Comair/1time/Airlink can't train quick enough, then they will have to come up with retention packages. Its the old train vs retain debate.

It will drive salaries up top to bottom in the SA industry. Said it before, u have gotta love globalization.

[Ketek400]

Believe me EK can make money on any sector however short the sector. Eg. Dubai - Doha, flying time 00:40. Aircraft A332. Seats full. Making money, yes.

EK will soon populate the rest of the world. The Sheik said he wants to be the biggest and most proffitable airline in the world by 2012. Wait for November and Dubai airshow to see another hugh >100 aircraft order.

I am sure EK will be doing dct CPT daily soon as well as DBN.

[Aspen20]

The earth moving equipment which has been parked at La Mercy for a while due to local objections, have now started working. Not long till new airport is done. Ek is still going to give all local airlines carrots.:ugh:

[jumbo1]

I heard the 3rd Jo'burg is going daily Nov or Dec this year, with CPT in Jan and Dbn towards the end of next year. Still waiting for official announcement though

[fractional]

Ever heard of a little law by ICAO called Cabotage?As long as the agreements are there among SA, ZA and AE (DXB) governments, this can be done. I ack it's going to be hard to achieve but it isn't impossible. Sky is the limit...Cabotage is the transport of goods or passengers between two points in the same country.

[innersole]

The fact that EK is offering opportunities to SA pilots I think is a great thing. If Comair/1time/Airlink can't train quick enough, then they will have to come up with retention packages. Its the old train vs retain debate

The problem is, if SAA goes t:mad:ts up, you'll have a bunch of SAA pilots looking for work in SA. The senior guys won't be going to EK, as the EK pilot on the last roadshow said they only look at guys " like Americans who have 15 000 hrs, of which 7 000 are PIC on the 777 " for the DEC program. As far as I know, none of the SAA guys have 777 time. I can't see working conditions improving in SA for a while, as RF,VB etc.. may have a huge pool to choose from shortly:E

[MrBernoulli]

Interesting thread. But having looked at the title, "Emirates - a threat for SA Airlines??" , I feel sure that SAA are more of a threat to themselves than any other major carrier! What an outfit! Not 'if', just 'when' with regard to it collapsing in a pile of its own poo.

[FuelFlow]

Another Roadshow in Johannesburg and Cape Town! 26th -28th November.
Check the EK website for details.:ok:

[REO]

All Emirates has to do, is to initially set up a base in S.A., employ any number of well qualified pilots to operate the flights, which will generally all be SAA guys. Then as they grow the base, SAA will start to shrink further! Give it a bit of time, and they will swallow up the national carrier, maybe even buy it out! (if there's anything left to buy!!) And there you have it, the new national carrier, Emirates South African Airlines. Sound far fetched? I dont think so... Look at Virgin. They have already become the national carrier for Nigeria. Expanding in Aussie (V Australia), and getting going in the States! So there you have it.... Come and show these clowns how it's done EK!!!

[vref+10]

Just to correct a common misconception. Emirates is a privately owned carrier based in the UAE. Etihad is the government backed flag carrier of the UAE based in Abu Dhabi. And no I don't fly for either of them just in case anyone wants to climb on their soapbox and get personal or accuse me of bias. I fly for a privately owned company based at Johannesburg.

African governments and, to a greater or lesser extent, the managements of the majority of African flag carriers are to blame for the predicament that these airlines find themselves in. The privately owned carriers on the continent (especially in South Africa ) are, for the most part, doing OK. Same conditions w.r.t to weak currencies, high fuel prices, competition from other carriers etc.

These are the indisputable facts of the matter! It's a global world and companies have no option but to be competitive if they wish to survive and thrive. Keep national politics out of the airlines and hire professional people who can make the companies succeed, not cronies, lackies and Employment Equity wannabes! Jobs for pals just won't work anymore.

[Biff99]

Putt for dough
I won’t be so sure if I were you,Qatar flies JNB to CPT