Saving up the snags

[vascani]

Would you assume that if a pilot suspects a fault on his plane he reports it immediately? Apparently it doesn't get reported until the end of the day.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/today

it is about 16 mins in

[Rigga]

This thread will either take off with people chipping in - or go very, very quiet!

[WOTME?]

Glad I don't work nights.

[TURIN]

Nothing new it's been going on ever since I can remember.

Along with the... "I can't find a fault 'ere capn would you like to report it back into base?????" :suspect:

[keel beam]

Perhaps get the Cabin Service Director involved - some have a sheer joy, and boast about how many cabin defects they have raised in the cabin log (sorry eng, only been able to fill 5 pages - 5 snags a page). No little fault goes unnoticed!

[Kengineer-130]

There is no harm IMHO of Captins "carrying" minor snags that don't affect the safty of the aircraft.
Coming from an RAF background, we use 3 systems, the ADH log- Acceptable deferred husbandry, for stuff like fabric patches missing, missing/scratched paint etc.

ADF long- Acceptable deffered faults- minor stuff like only 1 of the two tail lights working/ bulb gone etc etc, anything that is a grievance but has no adverse limitation or operational effects on the A/C.

Lim log- Limitations log, anything that will affect the performance or operation of the aircraft, like a generator that is not working/ 1 of a pair of instruments no working like an ADI for example. Being mil we obviously can take larger faults than civvy airlines, and sometimes operate the aircraft with major faults just to get them back to a safe service centre. But again, the degree of the problem we are allowed to carry is balanced against the risk to the A/C and personel.

I think the system works well, and if used properly is a very safe way of flying with minor snags to prevent the loss of the sortie. All down to the Captin though, if he refuses to fly with any problem it's his/her call and the problem will get fixed before the next flight.

[EGT Redline]

Being mil we obviously can take larger faults than civvy airlines, and sometimes operate the aircraft with major faults just to get them back to a safe service centre.
K-130

It’s actually the other way round. Airlines cannot afford to have their aeroplanes sitting on the ground, it costs them lots of money. If a dispatch is allowable iaw the MEL then it will fly, you will be surprised what snags they can and do carry. Aircraft are also released with major faults to get them back to main base, an example being un-pressurised flight due to structural damage.

I remember the good old days on the TriStar in the mob. You’d regularly get a load of blokes dithering around wondering what to do about the EPR gauge that had just gone U/S or the aircrew demanding it to be fixed before they flew. Delays were commonplace because some EngO was frightened of putting his name to a snag that was perfectible acceptable.

Unlike the MOD F700, civvies do not complicate matters with load of separate sections in their Tech Logs. A simple ADD (Acceptable Deferred Defect) log suffices for all deferred defects, including the ones that impose limitations on the aircraft.

[mafibacon]

EGT Redline

I doubt any civil reistered pressurised passenger carrying aircraft would be released back to service per the MEL due to structural damage.
`
Structual variations to the tdc are covered in the CDL - ie missing panels etc., which are allowable. The CDL is part of the Flight Manual.
`
A normal pressurised passenger aircraft with structural damage could be cleared to ferry unpressurised, to a place where repairs can be carried out under a "Permit to Fly" - normally issued, now, by EASA. - Assuming the aircraft is regestered in the EU.
MB

[joepatroni]

You also have to consider that airlines are run by people who look and act on statistics. For example if these people see that there are no defects entered into Tech Logs then GUESS WHAT!!!! They pop an e-mail to there mate and say how these airplanes are really good and safe and that we employ far too many engineers for the amount of defects we get. This happens. Pilots would be the first to complain that there are not enough engineers to fix or rectify any defect. So if there are any pilots out there looking at this I am sure that you have a defect/tech log in your office. Please use it as often as you like. You are not doing yourselves,the engineers,the aircraft,the passengers and the industry as a whole any favours. Jesus boys and girls THINK ABOUT IT!!!:=:ugh:

[EGT Redline]

A normal pressurised passenger aircraft with structural damage could be cleared to ferry unpressurised, to a place where repairs can be carried out under a "Permit to Fly" - normally issued, now, by EASA. - Assuming the aircraft is regestered in the EU.
MB, this is exactly what I meant. NOT releasing the aircraft for revenue service with structural damage as per the MEL.

[ericferret]

To illustrate Hossers comments I offer the following on statistics.

I contacted a major UK airlines technical department to point out that nowhere in their maintenance schedule did it call for any lighting to be checked other than emergency lights.

This is from Preflight to C check.

I had just received an aircraft off C check with over 40 cabin filaments out.
The response was

"" If you can statistically proove that this would lead to an aircraft delay we will do something about it""

Well it is'nt my job to statistically proove f**ck all, so nothing was done.
This gives a small insight into the mentality that engineers now have to deal with.

[smudgethecat]

The level of structural damage that is acceptable is dictated by the SRM most aircraft carry a fair bit of structural damage ranging from minor scrapes to some fair old dents/ buckles

[Notar31]

1. End of the day
2. End of the day at a Maintenance Base
3. Crew change (Hands A/C over to another crew with Nice log book writeup)
4. One crew writes up reading light Immediataly other guy flys around all day with 2 knob throttle split. No worries. Aint aviation grand.:oh:

[Rigga]

"1. End of the day
2. End of the day at a Maintenance Base
3. Crew change (Hands A/C over to another crew with Nice log book writeup)
4. One crew writes up reading light Immediataly other guy flys around all day with 2 knob throttle split. No worries. Aint aviation grand."

...and then there are those that are "Carried" by crews for a later time (such as when another aircraft becomes available) and/or they can fill the TL with snags as the aircraft comes in for hangar maintenance!

[sevenforeseven]

:confused:You got to look at shorthaul airlines in the UK. Prime example.(A/C are Blue and white, and it ends in a I))

[SpannersatVS]

Not like you to point the finger sevenforeseven:= You must have time on your hands after a day of "reset satis", only joking, when are you going to come down for a cup of tea at the working end.

[yamaha]

Encounter at 07:53 maintenance inspection 16:45 at first airport with sufficient staff and facilities.

As the person flying when the lighning strike occured, wouldn't I be best placed to know if something was up?

All systems continued to function normally, aircraft continued to handle normally.

Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?

[vs69]

Depends how many rivets melted in the aforementioned lightning strike I guess.....

[Rigga]

Well stated vs69.

The amount of rivets that melt next to Pressure Bulkheads or Skin Lap Joints, or even holes burnt through skins, is not really seen by our feathered bretheren as a threat to their fragile wax.

Its amazing how they know so much more than the so-called experts.

In the end, even UAV's will still need maintenance.

[yamaha]

I am not claiming to be an engineering expert, I just posed a question.

Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?

[smudgethecat]

Why??because yamaha the aircraft might be unairworthy and clearly your not qualified to make that judgement, bit of a "no brainer" really

[yamaha]

So are you saying that there is some substance to the radio 4 report then?

Looking back over this thread not many seem to be concerned about saving up the snags. I wonder how many are qualified to make that judgement as you put it and don't.

People in glass houses an all that!

[Clarence Oveur]

People who can't distinguish between say a U/S map light and a lightning strike, really should consider their position.

[yamaha]

So where exactly lies the limit between save till the end of the day or deal with immediately?

And where are those limits laid down?

I heavily suspect most posters here suffer from "do as I say not as I do"

[mafibacon]

Yamaha
Below is an extract from the UK ANO Article 15 - as appropriate to your question of "where is it laid down"
`
I sugest that before you take umbridge at other posters on this topic that actually know what they are talking about, you make sure you attempt to learn the rules by which the UK aviation industry operate to.
`
I take it by your previous comments that you are one of the Prima Donnas that occupy the front of the aircraft when it flies - if so, enough said!
`
Article 15 of the ANO
`
(4) Subject to paragraph (5), at the end of every flight by an aircraft to which this article applies the commander shall enter in the technical log or the approved record as the case may be:
(a) the times when the aircraft took off and landed;
(b) particulars of any defect which is known to him and which affects the airworthiness or safe operation of the aircraft, or if no such defect is known to him, an entry to that effect; and (c) such other particulars in respect of the airworthiness or operation of the aircraft as the CAA may require;
and he shall sign and date the entries.
(5) In the case of two or more consecutive flights each of which begins and ends:
(a) within the same period of 24 hours;
(b) at the same aerodrome, except where each such flight is for the purpose of dropping or projecting any material for agricultural, public health or similar purposes; and
(c) with the same person as commander of the aircraft;
the commander may, except where he becomes aware of a defect during an earlier flight, make the entries specified in paragraph (4) at the end of the last of such consecutive flights.
MB

[Golden Rivet]

Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?

Duty of Care.

[yamaha]

but an aircraft on the ground costs money and could in fact cost you your job.

what I see here is nothing more than an us and them discussion. When you decide to ignore the faults its ok but should pilots do it, its not.

Duty of care applies to all of us.

[spannersatcx]

Yes we all have a duty of care. Which is why you have a legal duty to report it.

What will cost more is a smouldering hole in the ground rather than a small delay when a lightning strike check is carried out.

pic of a strike (http://www.b737.org.uk/lightning.htm)

It seems commercial pressure in this instance has more importance than safety. :rolleyes:

[yamaha]

Oh I left one bit out.

I did report it. Maintenance (an engineer) told me to continue to the next suitable base (as it would be alright) and they would check it there.

Ummmm, glass houses springs to mind yet again.

[smudgethecat]

Christ yamaha your scary, however something tells me your a bit of a "walter mitty", lets hope so anyway.

[yamaha]

Just trying to get to the bottom of this.

An engineer? goes on radio telling the world that pilots do not enter faults into the log books until the end of the day.

A damning statement if factual. As I said, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Point being that one shouldn't make unsubstantiated claims especially if one doesn't hold the moral high ground.

[Rigga]

I wonder what airline he pushes a drinks trolley for?
He can't be a pilot! surely not? I don't think I ever met one that obtuse.
Journalist maybe?

[itwilldoatrip]

You want to try padantic Aussies Rigga.:ugh:

[Ahua]

Surely if an aircraft takes a lightning blast, and all seems good, the pilot cna continue to destination. no problem. Obviously this isnt a "capt map lt us" sort of defect. But if he does not feel the need to write it in the snag pad, whilst the planes doing the flying for 2 hours fine. but definiltly should report to an Eng once on the deck.

The eng, would then check it out. against the SRM. if found out of limits. oops! grounded. sorry! now thats the way I see it. I know the big comercial boys don't want that. but tough its the way it has to be. the only expection would be to get a special permit for 1 cycle to return to base if no approved maint is available down route.

Pilots may feel that they are under pressure to keep the machine moving. I think eng's may also be feeling that pressure. But I am sure that there is a greater prwessure not to do anything that will put safety at risk. Am I wrong??

oh, if found within limits, fine note on the dent chart, and defer for further evaluation at next C. or whatever the SRM states. easy!:p

[Rigga]

"You want to try padantic Aussies Rigga."

Did you mean pedantic?

[AVOdriver]

"As the person flying when the lighning strike occured, wouldn't I be best placed to know if something was up?

All systems continued to function normally, aircraft continued to handle normally.

Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?"

To reply to your query without the, us and them comments, glass house comments. etc. as to why you are NOT best qualified:
below are the systems of the aircraft that require checking on the aircraft I work on. Please pay particular attention to systems that are active but not used in normal operation. Maybe check the aircraft maint manual for your type you maybe surprised.


NOTE: The following inspection shall be done whenever aircraft is subjected to lightning strike.

(1) Using a torch and inspection mirror, visually inspect all engine electrical connectors and wires for evidence of damage. (Ref. Honeywell EM 72-00-09, page block 801, Honeywell EM 72-00-10, page block 801, Honeywell EM 72-00-11, page block 801, Honeywell EM 72-00-16, page block 801, AMM 74-20-01, page block 201, AMM 74-20-02, page block 201, AMM 75-10-03, page block 201, AMM 76-20-02, page block 201, AMM 76-20-03, page block 201, AMM 76-20-04, page block 201, AMM 77-12-01, page block 201, AMM 77-20-01, page block 201, AMM 77-20-02, page block 201, AMM 77-20-03, page block 201).

(2) Perform a ground run to determine proper operation of all engine electrical components and sensors as follows:-

(a) Ignition system.

(b) Vibration system.

(c) Anti-icing system.

(d) Rotor speed indicators.

(e) Oil system indicators.

(f) ITT system.

(g) Fuel flow indicators.

(3) Perform overspeed trip system redundancy and latch check.
MRB/MPD REF : 72-17B,72-17C

When a lightning strike has been reported, the aircraft and/or engine must be inspected for damage, and tests performed before the next flight (Ref. AMM 05-51-15, page block 1). All details of system malfunctions that occurred at the time of the strike, and subsequent to it, must be obtained from the flight crew.
In the following inspection requirements, the tasks are divided in phases as follows :-
Phase 1 - the initial inspection phase which, if found serviceable, will require no further action.
Phase 2 - the repair and replacement phase, if damage is found at phase 1. All structural repairs are to be performed in accordance with the procedures detailed in the Structural Repair Manual (SRM).
Phase 3 - used where tests are required after work at phase 2.

2. Inspection procedure
A. Equipment and materials

ITEM DESIGNATION
(1) Access platforms 11 to 24 ft. (3.35 to 7.32m).
(2) Warning notices.

Referenced procedures
SRM Structural repair manual.
WM Wiring manual.
AMM 05-51-15, page block 1 Lightning strike inspection (engines).
AMM 12-10-24, page block 1 Servicing - electrical power.
AMM 12-10-29, page block 1 Servicing - hydraulic power.
AMM 22-10-00, page block 501 Autopilot.
AMM 22-13-00, page block 501 Yaw damper.
AMM 23-11-00, page block 501 VHF communications system.
On aircraft 303
AMM 23-12-00, page block 501 HF communications system.
On aircraft ALL
AMM 23-60-11, page block 201 Static dischargers (tips).
AMM 23-60-14, page block 201 Static dischargers (trailing).
On aircraft 301,304-305
AMM 25-60-17, page block 201 Emergency locator transmitter.
On aircraft ALL
AMM 27-11-00, page block 501 Aileron control system.
AMM 27-12-00, page block 501 Aileron trim control system.
AMM 27-21-00, page block 501 Rudder control system.
AMM 27-31-00, page block 501 Elevator control system.
AMM 27-32-00, page block 501 Elevator trim control system.
AMM 27-50-00, page block 501 Flap control system.
AMM 27-61-00, page block 501 Lift spoiler system.
AMM 27-62-00, page block 501 Roll control system.
AMM 27-63-00, page block 501 Airbrake control system.
AMM 30-31-00, page block 501 Pitot, Q-pot and airflow sensor vane heaters.
AMM 30-32-00, page block 501 Static plate heaters.
AMM 30-41-00, page block 501 Windshield de-ice and demist.
AMM 30-42-00, page block 501 Windshield wipers.
AMM 30-71-00, page block 501 Water pipe heaters.
AMM 30-72-00, page block 501 Drain mast heater.
AMM 30-81-00, page block 501 Ice detection.
AMM 31-52-00, page block 501 Audible warning system.
AMM 32-30-00, page block 501 Extension and retraction.
AMM 32-41-00, page block 501 Brake controls and indication.
AMM 33-41-00, page block 501 Landing/taxi lights.
AMM 33-42-00, page block 501 Navigation lights.
AMM 33-43-00, page block 501 Runway turn-off (exit) lights.
AMM 33-44-00, page block 501 Wing inspection lights.
AMM 33-45-00, page block 501 Strobe lights and anti-collision beacons.
AMM 33-46-11, page block 201 Logo light unit.
AMM 34-11-00, page block 501 Pitot static system.
AMM 34-16-11, page block 201 Outside air temperature.
AMM 34-19-11, page block 201 Total air temperature.
AMM 34-21-00, page block 501 Compass system.
AMM 34-22-11, page block 201 Standby compass.
On aircraft 303-304
AMM 34-25-00, page block 501 Electronic flight instrument system (EFIS).
On aircraft 301-302,305
AMM 34-23-00, page block 501 Flight director system.
On aircraft ALL
AMM 34-33-00, page block 501 Marker system.
AMM 34-41-00, page block 501 Weather radar.
AMM 34-42-00, page block 501 Radio altimeter.
AMM 34-44-00, page block 501 Traffic alert and collision avoidance system (TCAS).
AMM 34-51-00, page block 501 Distance measuring equipment (DME).
AMM 34-52-01, page block 501 Air traffic control (ATC) - Mode-S.
AMM 34-53-00, page block 501 Automatic direction finder.
AMM 34-55-00, page block 501 VHF navigation.
On aircraft 303
AMM 34-60-00, page block 501 Navigation management system (GNS-X).
On aircraft ALL
AMM 34-61-02, page block 501 Flight management system (GNS-XLS).
AMM 53-00-00, page block 1 Fuselage.
AMM 53-10-52, page block 201 Radome.

[BAe146s make me cry]

AVOdriver

This looks familiar :E

BAe146??? :{:{:{

[itwilldoatrip]

Rigga
Yes your right I used the Urban Dictionary.
AVO
Blxxdy ell you do all that!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like better put in for a pay rise and next lightning strike check get all my workload a/c for the day ditched and carry on and hand over to next shift:).

[yamaha]

you should read the Cypriot Captain thread.
He was the one who dared challenge, most don't.
The quicker you people lose your blinkered "it don't happen to me so it don't happen" attitude...................the better for the whole of industry.


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3628863#post3628863

[tflier]

Last company's DFO advised us by e-mail (very naiive) not to put defects in techlog, as they could not be rectified on turn arounds......at base. This included u/s engine anti-ice valves (2 u/s on a heavy 3 eng. jet) potentially contaminated hydraulic system, u/s engine instruments N2 and F/F on one eng and N2 on another, one u/s VHF radio, one u/s H/F radio, u/s APU, one tyre worn to limits, only one QRH between the 3 flight deck crew, unusable main forward exit, one u/s landing light and one u/s taxi light on same side. I completed 4 pages in the tech log, and the A/C still departed after mimimum turn around at base. This aircraft flies into the UK, and it is scandalous.:mad:

[Clarence Oveur]

I do enjoy posts which have no apparent connection to the thread they are posted in.

So yamaha, you reported the lightning strike, but reading between the lines you only did so verbally. Who is then negligent and to blame really?

[yamaha]

me of course. That's one of the reasons for me posting here.

It is a serious issue that needs to be brought out into the open. Just because some may not witness such actions many others do and are keeping quiet.

The connection is clear to see, this thread was about faults not being entered until the end of the day. A captain is now suspended because he entered a fault during the day.

Even Clarence should be able to work out what effect this action will now have on the rest of the team. Faults will not be so readily entered.

[TURIN]

Faults will not be so readily entered.

So, no change there then!! :suspect: