Ultra STOL aircraft [Archive]

Contacttower

20th Sep 2007, 18:27

I am looking for an aircraft (not a microlight or helicopter) that could operate safely out of a field that is only 200m long...does such a plane exist?

I've got a number of hours on the Super Cub which in my opinion would be OK on take-off but landing might be a bit tight...perhaps something like an Auster or Maule? Suggestions please.

fernytickles

20th Sep 2007, 18:37

Have gone into, and out of, a 600' (3.28 feet to a metre, so just a wee bit shorter than 200m) grass strip in a clipped wing Cub with two on board. Would only do it with the right conditions and a straight forward approach/departure path.

gcolyer

20th Sep 2007, 19:01

Try a Maule 235 it is the absoltue dog's dangly's. I just test flew one in New York.

http://www.mauleairinc.com/Our_Planes/Maule_M-7-235B_and_235C/maule_m-7-235b_and_235c.html

Contacttower

20th Sep 2007, 19:29

Try a Maule 235 it is the absoltue dog's dangly's. I just test flew one in New York.

I don't suppose there are any clubs in the UK that operate them?

justinmg

20th Sep 2007, 19:44

I am not sure if this would suit, but think this has a group A version.

http://www.mcp.com.au/sting/movie/movie.html

Looks like less than 50m take off roll, to me on the video from 6mins onwards....

J.A.F.O.

20th Sep 2007, 19:45

What about a Husky?

gcolyer

20th Sep 2007, 20:03

The Maule 235 out performs the Husky.

It has a good MAUW
Very very short STOL ability
Decent cruise speed
Can be rigged for full IFR
Is a true 4 seat tourer

Dont get me wrong i do like the Husky (not that I have flown one) and super cub on both floats and wheels. But after my Maule 235 test flight I am convinced it is the better aircraft.

IFollowRailways

20th Sep 2007, 20:13

One of the larger engined Rallye's would do it. I own a 180 with a constant speed prop which I operate from a 400m strip, but I don't use half of the length available - On a good day, I can land on the apron in front of the hangar and not even use the runway! A Rallye Minerva (220) or a 235 would be even better from the takeoff performance point of view.

Fuji Abound

20th Sep 2007, 20:34

gcolyer

What is the cross wind performance of the Maule like - I dont mean demonstrated by real use from early days on type up to a pilot who is really current?

Did you try the 180 or the 540 version?

Always facied a Maule :).

QDMQDMQDM

20th Sep 2007, 20:35

Of course a 150 Super Cub will do it, but the question you must ask yourself is a different one. With 200m, the margin for error is very small in any aircraft. If this is your home strip 99 times successful out of 100 isn't good enough. What if you're having an off day....?

shortstripper

20th Sep 2007, 20:39

Zenair STOL 701

SS

gcolyer

20th Sep 2007, 20:55

FF

I took the Maule M6 235 (IO540) to Pottsdam New York, when landing I had an 82 degree cross wind at 21 kts. There was no issues at all with the handling of the aircraft...a tad faster than usual just because I don't have a million hours on type other than that what a machine.

Cruise at 160mph...60% power cruised at about 140, usefull MAUW, not bad fuel burn, great STOL machine, spacious for a 4 seater. Personaly it ticks all the boxes I am interested in.

The aircraft I flew reg is N55TG. During the flight in the Adirondaks I elected to land in quiet a few forset clearings and short strips to get a feel for the aircraft. With 48 degree flaps it is like a helicopter! My main trip was from NY10 to NY79 and back for the test flight, all the stops and hops I made was during this trip. Right now I am looking to buy an aircraft or a share, if a Maule 235 (i am not bothered on what M series) came along I would jump at it.

visibility3miles

20th Sep 2007, 20:56

Try searching on youtube or Google for
STOL Alaska

or
Bush pilot Alaska

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZW85T_1LTA

gcolyer

20th Sep 2007, 21:34

Vis

That is the bees knees and my sort of flying fun. I need to look in to that competition.

IO540

20th Sep 2007, 21:49

Loads and loads of planes can operate out of 200m grass.

The question is whether you want to fly for very long in any of them ;)

An interesting one to check out is a C182 with the canard kit. It has to be N-reg though.

A C182 is good for going places for real, and being a trike undercarriage has better crosswind performance than the more obvious candidates which are mostly taildraggers.

IFMU

21st Sep 2007, 00:33

A C182 is good for going places for real, and being a trike undercarriage has better crosswind performance than the more obvious candidates which are mostly taildraggers.
IO540,
The 182 is a great airplane. Why do trikes have better crosswind performance than taildraggers? I always thought crosswind performance was about control power and ground clearance.

Contacttower,
200m is only part of the picture. What is at either end of the 200m? Trees or fields? Wires or a cliff?

-- IFMU

Contacttower

21st Sep 2007, 07:32

200m is only part of the picture. What is at either end of the 200m? Trees or fields? Wires or a cliff?

It's a field with other fields around it- some trees at either end and a standard cattle fence.

Spruit

21st Sep 2007, 07:41

200m

some trees at either end

I'm scared for him! :eek:

Spru!

gpn01

21st Sep 2007, 12:26

Buy the adjacent fields and increase the runway length ?

Broady

21st Sep 2007, 12:39

As someone who has just made the decision to get my PPL starting in the new year, I've been looking at the options for a STOL aircraft due to similar circumstances and am currently investigating the purchase of a slepcev storch in a kit or preferably purpose built form (apparently approx 45,000 euro's new from the factory).

This may provide you with another option to review. I prefer to buy a ready to fly version however, I understand that the registration of a purpose built may be somethinng of a challenge - but one I'm presently contemplating once I've the PPL under my belt.

See http://www.slepcevstorch.com (http://www.slepcevstorch.com)

Major Major

21st Sep 2007, 14:41

The Storch is interesting indeed:

"By keeping the weight down to a minimum, yet keeping the aircraft structurally still very strong, (+6 -3), the Slepcev Storch is very original in both appearance and performance. The aircraft will fly at 22mph at full flap and 30% of power. Take off run into a 16mph wind is vertical with no forward roll."

I'd suggest the Maule is a different beast entirely though - 2 seat tandem lightweight Euro45k vs 4 seat 160mph $200k tourer with STOL capability.

wilma80

21st Sep 2007, 16:43

The Wilga is a great aircraft and will do the job like no other.

QDMQDMQDM

21st Sep 2007, 21:51

Loads and loads of planes can operate out of 200m grass.

I0540, you should stick to commenting on what you know about. There are not that many Group A aircraft which can operate out of 200m of grass and, of those which can, very few can do it at gross.

I do operate out of 200m grass strips in a 150 Super Cub and, as I said in my previous post, it does not matter at all how good the aircraft is, 200m is very short for most of us. To use a strip like this, you have to be able to place the aircraft ultra-precisely every time, you have to nail the speed with utter precision, you have to instinctively know and feel how your aircraft will handle at different weight and CG combinations, you have to have a very good sense of the wind and you need to have the sense to know when it isn't going to work. If there are also trees at the end, this guy is stacking the odds against himself to an absurd level.

If we were talking about a 5,000 hour Alaskan Super Cub pilot using this as his home strip I may be a little more forgiving, but in any other circumstances this is a disaster waiting to happen.

The most important thing to appreciate in flying is that there is often a surprisingly large gap between what is possible and what is actually sensible. It doesn't do to explore that interface too closely.

eltonioni

22nd Sep 2007, 02:20

Perhaps the 200m is often more dependant on the pilot?
(all factors taken into account)

Billredshoes

22nd Sep 2007, 08:55

Simply buy an AN2 its only 200lts per hour + 5 lts oil

flyme273

22nd Sep 2007, 13:40

Rallye Minerva
Flight Manual for max weight sea level 15 deg slats + flaps 30 deg, ground run required is 120 metre. Landing run max weight 130 metres.

Figures are hard surface and dry. Factors for grass; take off wet grass 1.3 landing 1.35. This gives the critical condition of landing 180 metres.

Per previous post, would suggest acquisition of ajoining fields at least try for 300 metres.

Send PM if you want scan of Performance tables.

Contacttower

22nd Sep 2007, 16:16

The most important thing to appreciate in flying is that there is often a surprisingly large gap between what is possible and what is actually sensible. It doesn't do to explore that interface too closely.

Indeed, thanks to everyone for their replies, but at the moment at least my question does remain theoretical. The field in question (as many have rightly guessed) would be very marginal for even the most experienced pilot and capable aircraft. QDM, the level of precision you describe is something I have yet to achieve in the Super Cub (although I'm sure I could with lots of practice)...it was just interesting to hear everyone's views and see what suggestions everyone had. I've always fancied an AN-2 though so perhaps I might come back to this question in a few years time...

Pilot DAR

22nd Sep 2007, 23:33

QDM has it right here. 200M is achievable, but having operated a number of STOL types in and out of my own runway at 700' length, for over a year, I scared myself so many times that I lengthened it to 1400', then 2100'. No more worries now.

If you're really up to it, 200M will work for even a regular 172 if everything is going well, but grass, winds, gusts, obsticles etc. will get you one day. And when they do, did the prevailing conditions still qualify in the performance charts for the 200m requirement? Your insurance adjuster will be checking....

Just because it is possible, does not make it fun or safe...

Of the types mentioned, Wilga is the best choice. Zenith 701 gets off the ground quick, but can get stuck in ground effect badly. Husky, Cubs, STOL kitted 100 series Cessnas (not 177), and Maules can all do it, but one day it would be very scary.

Whenever I contemplate the wild thing, I ask myself: "would I want to be explaining the reasoning behind that decision to the insurance adjuster, and accident investigator?" Nope!

I'm presently learning on a Schwiezer 300.

Cheers, Pilot DAR

shortstripper

23rd Sep 2007, 07:57

Zenith 701 gets off the ground quick, but can get stuck in ground effect badly.

That's a new one on me?

Anyway, back to the main topic ........

My strip is exactly 250 yards from one hedge to the other. One hedge is 10-15' high with 50' trees a further 200 yards on from that, and the other has a 25' high telephone cable 15 yards beyond it. However, it's flat and has the prevailing wind straight down the runway. My Slingsby, like many single seat PFA types, microlights and proper STOL aircraft can be operated perfectly safely from this length if the pilot has the right experience. The thing is, these types "could" operate from a strip half the length, so we have a safety margin. So, I "could" fly my Slingsby from a 100 yard strip, but there would be less margin, so I wouldn't contemplate it on a regular basis. Other aircraft that we've flown into and out of my strip include a Tigermoth, Supercub, VP2, and even a C150! (that one was a bit errrmm "squeeky"). It's safe enough to fly in now and then when the conditions are OK, but the safety margin is reduced. To operate these types regularly from the strip (or mine from 100 yards) would be courting disaster. There would always be an urge to fly on a nice day when maybe all the safety boxs aren't ticked! As QDM and others have said, what is possible and what is sensible, are two very different things.

SS

krungbin

23rd Sep 2007, 08:45

And what about an "old" DHC 2 Beaver? Sure, the aircraft is 60 years old, as I am, but it takes off fullpayload (2000lds) on a 17O m run... And they are some turbo versions available on the market...i

larssnowpharter

23rd Sep 2007, 12:38

Arclite01

23rd Sep 2007, 23:28

Pilot DAR is right about what he says and leads to another thing.

What about EFATO ?

Arc

exlatccatsa

24th Sep 2007, 21:02

Take a look at this c182 conversion. http://www.katmai-260se.com/ you wanted 200m .. this'll take off at max weight (2950lbs) in 400 feet!!
1000nm range 150kt cruise stalls at 35kts.. wish i had one!!

QDMQDMQDM

24th Sep 2007, 22:28

One is rather surprised that no-one has mentioned the Helio Courier. With one up and low fuel could probably operate out of half that length.

Handley Page leading edge slats, trailing edge slotted flaps, main wheel castering allowing a 20knt cross wind, tried and tested design. What more do you want. Unless you go for a Stallion!

Oh yes, and great low speed handling.

Have seen them on the market in recent years from around $78K upwards.

The Couriers are utterly unbelievable aircraft, but two problems:

1. No spares availability
2. The geared lycomings. Expensive to overhaul and can bugger them up if you don't look after them well.