What The Real Problem Is At Saa

[SAT_BOSS]

There are many posts on the woes of SAA, and as I have never worked for SAA or the SAAF (I was a Diensplig not a PF Konstabel in the SAP – because it paid better for my available brain power for 3 years in the early 80’s) with a lekker Klippie & Coke (that my Boet sends me) & watching the Rugby & munching on my biltong that I shot during a Moose hunt (I live in Canada now) with my two sons (Flying my own and fully paid for 206) I would like to gooi n lekker klip in die bos. But hey it’s a gossip column so hate it or love it but here goes:
We have to understand that SAA has never made money since its inception simply because it’s not held accountable to make money because the tax payers fund all the shortfalls. SAA needs one simple route to make money and that is to:
1. Level the playing field and hire people because they can do the job, not because they are American, Boers or Blacks and hold them accountable for their jobs.
2. Be absolutely 100% privately owned, not a Para State, Semi State, Quasi State or anything like that.
The level playing field is not just about “Africanization” it’s about the inherent history & philosophy of SAA since its inception. For a start it was always an Air Force old boys flying club, where you went to make better money and have all the Spoorie Advantages of never having to worry about bread in your mouth when your contract was over in the SAAF.
That’s where it got pilots from, in the pre Nat days it hired RAF / SAAF & “i.e. sworn Bloed Sappe” and after the Nats took power it hired SAAF old Boys many of them Broederbonders! Off course within its ranks it always had the “Mak Ingilse & Mak Joodse” faces for the sake of appearances.
From that philosophy came “Africanization”, they are hiring exactly in the same manner that SAA taught them to hire from, i.e. “your own kind”. They also put in the odd “Mak Wit” face in there cadet Program for the sake of appearances. Now we are playing this gigantic cry baby hullabaloo because “Africans” are so unfair. Hell they are not, we taught them, and they are for the sake of transparency and expediency doing exactly the same thing that SAA did after the Nats took power.
Fact of the matter is whether we like it or not the National Airline should never have allowed ex Air Force members in their ranks, because over the years (Second oldest airline in Africa I believe) the poor boy that actually had to pay for his license from day one and then got it after sweating blood and tears for lack of money never really had a fair playing field to enter SAA. Had we helped out the “Civvies” to fly “Civvies” we would have had two very good and different pools or groups of pilots.
Now before we get the ex SAAF contingent cry foul, fact of the matter is when you signed on the dotted line after selection you chose voluntarily to fly for your country, with excellent career prospects. But when the National Airline allowed you to finish your contract and join, the countries pilots suffered heavily because the guy that went up “through the civvy ranks” and actually had to use something called money to learn how to fly was put out of a job for many years.
Let’s thank our heavenly stars that the playing fields are now more level and let’s accept without tears that the SAAF / SAA boys had a good training background, thanks to the tax payers and can now fly for all the other great airlines, if they so choose. Let’s also acknowledge that SAA has gone the “civvy route” and had the balls to take previously disadvantaged kids that want to fly and give them a chance in a cadet scheme. The Nats never had this foresight because they had a pool thanks to the Air Force from which to choose.
So let’s make some figures and see how many ex “well known Air School” kids had wealthy enough daddies (thanks to being Captains in SAA and now other Airlines, courtesy of the SAAF and the Tax Payer) to pay for their Com / then Van & 1900 ratings so they can “pole” at a relatively young age Turbines on contract throughout the world and get time to enter a level playing field in the World’s Aviation market, not just in South Africa.
Now about me, yes I never made the SAAF selection because my mathematics were not “enough” and I never got into SAA, yes it made me very “de moer” in because I was still young and stupid. But I had a thing called brass balls and that was to beg borrow and lend money so that “Oom Colin Campbell” in Pietermaritzburg could take me under his wing in his beloved Cherokees and teach me how to pole. After that I had to write a Comm. (3 times it took me! – because I was stupid according to the SAAF and had to work while I flew). That Comm. Gave me a lowly paid job “when the market” was there so I ended up Poling Piston Pounders over angry skies for very little money.
So please grow up, get used to it, its life, it’s tough and there are very few winners. And “wannabee SAAF & SAA” kids please stop this crying game that your daddies taught you and grow up, there is a way, but it might take more years and a thing called guts. Now that the fields are level for all the population groups in South Africa, use your current opportunities and make the best of them. Trust me they are a lot better than in the 80’s as there are many more 1900’s flying on contract all over the world and very few Cessna 206’s and 310’s being poled alone on contract today.
Today I am still in Aviation, I am content, and I still fly and I make good money. The past is past and the future looks good. As I am pouring another Klippies & Coke & looking at my beautiful wife and two sons at our lovely home with its pool and braai area where I actually sleep every night I will be slaaning lekker dekking and hope to God that my two kids grow up knowing that nothing in this thing called life comes easy and sometimes you might have to work for it, whatever your race may be.

[taperlok]

couldn't have said it better myself. Specially the SAAF bits.
Have a klippes & coke on me.:ok:

[Frogman1484]

By the sounds of it I think SAT BOSS has had one too many Klippies and Coke!

Still remember the days of 1 liter of Brandy 2 liters of Coke and a 3 Liter Cortina!!!:ok:

[taperlok]

The dudes from Brakpan will remember that with fond memories:}

[777Contrail]

Get over it.

I spent 8 years in the SAAF. Paid for my own Comm. licence that I did after hours.(passed all subjects first time)

Paid for my own ALTP that I did after hours. (passed all first time)

Did my selections with SAA 12 years ago - was put on the famed short list and had to wait. Again 9 years ago................

I've seen many SAA captain's sons & daughters get in with only a comm.lic. and MANY darker skinned and fairer sexed ones as well.

And today I'm glad that I'm not there to see the cookie crumble...........

[CJ750]

:D:D:DSAT BOSS:ok::ok::ok:

Well said old chap.

Do you need ice at this time of the year with the KLIPPIES and COKE. Enjoyed your piece but don't know if everyone will. This debate of SAAF and CIVVIES will go on forever. I think this is also the case at COMAIR too. I was not AIR FORCE enough there either. :=:=:=

Enjoy the nightstops at home every night and keep the wings level

CJ750

[Floofy]

Guys ! There is life after and without SAA. Best of luck to everyone endeavouring on a new career.

[Nickerbal]

:mad: kn reg ja! Great to see a sensible post, but then you can understand sense becasue seems that Sat_Boss had to pay for what he has.

Shame on all the :{ babies .... and the moonlighters that are still eating into the GA market ....

Interesting I was wondering if we can post the number and maybe more info on all the SAA Captains "kids" that got in with only a Comm. It will be very :O and the rest of the community can ;) and say well how are those selections really conducted?

Are they :ok: or are they a bit := and and and and ...... maybe a committee is called for, time to Africanize this lot and get on with it :}:}:}

Oops I have been bombed off a long time ago, lost my medical so I have no more milk to spill or cry over

[nugpot]

Do I have this correctly?

This thread is a whinge because you were not good enough to get into the SAAF and because of that could not get into SAA?

So I guess SAA's troubles are due to the fact that you could not do math and weren't at SAA to keep the arrogant SAA captains from earning huge salaries.......

Interesting logic.

[Avi8tor]

SAA needs one simple route to make money and that is to:
1. Level the playing field and hire people because they can do the job, not because they are American, Boers or Blacks and hold them accountable for their jobs.
2. Be absolutely 100% privately owned, not a Para State, Semi State, Quasi State or anything
Logic seems pretty sound to me. History on hiring profile thru the ages is about right too.

But looking backwards is not gonna solve SAA's problems. Right size it and list.

[AAL]

SAT_BOSS, so you reckon SAA are in trouble just because you did not manage to get in to the comapny?

Sounds more like sour grapes to me!

[Avi8tor]

SAT_BOSS, so you reckon SAA are in trouble just because you did not manage to get in to the comapny?
Sounds more like sour grapes to me!

There seems to be a train of thought running through all of these threads.

If you are IN SAA, its your god given right to ride on the tax payers coat tails and bugger the rest of the industry.

If you want to see a healthy airline industry and your NOT IN SAA, its all sour grapes and ur an idiot.

Have I about summed it up or have I missed something?

[skyvan]

I have realised, over the years of Pprune-ing, that an SAA pilot is, according to those who are not in SAA, an overpaid, underworked recipient of some kind of nepotism, who, if not working for SAA would be incapable of holding down a "real" job, mainly because he battles to tie his own shoelaces in the morning.

At the same time, many of the people most interested in SAA, what it pays it's pilots, and how much money it loses, are normally people who do not work for SAA, some have tried to get in, but were turned down (for any of a myriad of reasons), others never even tried, others feel that SAA was responsible for the closures of Sunair, Pheonix, Bopair etc.

It stikes me that the people who should be worrying about SAA, are having to take flak from a bunch of unsuccessful wannabes, and other assorted no-hopers.

So I will enjoy watching the vitirol which shall follow this posting, for it is time to worry about only what you can influence, and I know that I cannot influence the minds of those whose psyche bears a grudge.

[Avi8tor]

YIP...I think I got it about right. The great thing is they NEVER fail to disappoint.

[Greeson]

Skyvan,well f:mad:ing said.
It amazes me how the biggest SAA bashers on the African Aviation forum are people that have bailed on SA and live overseas. Avi8tor, why are you and your cronies so worried about whats going on here? Are you trying to justify your decision?

Most of us who choose to stay will never begrudge those that want to leave. Everybody has their reasons. But when you leave you give up your right to sit in the sand and throw darts at your old country.YOU'VE LEFT, MOVE ON ALREADY!!!

Dont your regions have their own forums? Go stir s:mad:t there.

[Avi8tor]

And just because we earn a living somewhere else, that give me NO right as SAA's only shareholder, as I am still a taxpayer and a voter, to voice an opinion?

The fact that you see yourself as representing the whole nation, I find somewhat arrogant. And that to criticize how the state controlled loss maker is in someway unpatriotic?
You champs fail to see is outside your own little self interest. And the fact that SAA is able to totally distort the rest of the industry, is totally lost on you.

We live in a world of globalization. You work for a largely piss pot, state controlled, african loss maker. In a country that has huge social and econonomic challanges coupled with mass unemployment. There is NO shortage of pilots in SA, plenty waiting for your jobs at 1/2 the money.

Sorry friend, barking at the critics wont change the facts. This is not about anti SAA, its about being PRO a healthy aviation industry. Level the playing field, cut the purse strings, let the market decide.

[Greeson]

So let me get this straight. You earn your wage in Dubai, but still live in SA. Time to come clean avi8tor. Are you one of the above mentioned pilots? Trying to convince us to leave, to improve your chances. We onto you pal.

Here's a tip,proof read your CV better than your posts.

[Romeo E.T.]

I also didn't make the SAA cut and resigned myself to the fact almost 15years ago, at the time similar thoughts of "anger" and dissapointment at the percieved favouritism welled thru me...today I am content where I am and actually pleased not to have gone the SAA way, what with all their current and still to come problems.

[Frogman1484]

Greeson...when are you going to finally come and realize that SAA is not what it used to be and it is not going to be either...the end is near my friend. The conditions at SAA are only going to get worst and worst!!!

Just look all around you, look at the whole of South Africa. Do you see a trend? Are things getting better? Is crime on the decline or has it moved in to the security compounds...sorry estates? Can you even go to a shopping center and feel safe? Are any of your friends leaving for other parts of the world?

I do not think that people that have left need to bash SAA in order to reassure them selves that the right move was to leave, all you need is one newspaper, one drive from the airport.

[Avi8tor]

Trying to convince us to leave, to improve your chances. We onto you pal.
Do you guys undergo a lobotomy when you get into SAA?

[ByAirMail]

Just caught a glimpse of the CNN Sport update as I pass through SIN airport… something about a Twenty/ 20 cricket game postponed due to cable theft and no lights at the stadium? Roll on 2010 Soccer World Cup!! Excuse the pun, but “see the light guys”.

[JetNut]

frogman and mates...I'm sure you are very content with your situation in HK, GF etc, with its own problems, weather, pollution, lack of legal recourse, expensive living conditions, etc.

But at the end of the day, those who choose to remain in SA do so at their own free choice, and thereby accept it warts an'all.

Migration of people has been occuring for centuries and its nothing new to South Africa. Many SA citizens who have the means to immigrate never the less do however, choose to stay in their home country and make it the best that it can be.

I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in.

Negative and unjustified criticism from back seat drivers like yourself add to an economical phenomen referred to as the "law of diminishing returns" . so for you to leave, in a way is for the betterment of SA society.

Good luck in whichever country you make your new home.

I'm sure you'll make it the best you can, as I will in SA.

[nugpot]

Negative and unjustified criticism from back seat drivers like yourself

Jetnut, how many faces do you see in the mirror when you shave in the morning?

I would like to refer you to your previous negative and critical posts on various threads on this site.........

SAA will probably survive the restructuring process and I think the pilots will lose relatively little, but I do think that this has served as a wake-up call for those who were contemplating leaving this lovely little corner of Africa.

For Avi8tor and his mates. The playing fields are as level as they will get for the foreseeable future. The other airlines knew what the conditions in SA were when they started operating here. Their pilots knew that they would operate against a state supported airline and that they would never earn SAA level salaries. Those that could not abide by that, left the country and now sit in some forsaken desert or monsoon area and chirp from the peanut gallery.

Get over it guys. SAA will not be privatised and will continue to be supported by the state, even if it uses up every cent of VAT that Avi8tor pays on his trips to SA.

This is from the LABOUR AND PUBLIC ENTERPRISES SELECT COMMITTEE
11 September 2007
SAA RESTRUCTURING: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES BRIEFING.
Ms Terblanche stated that the tax payers have always bailed out SAA in the past. DPE should state whether privatization would be a possibility, if the restructuring process were to fail.

Mr Shaw responded that it was true that SAA had been bailed out before; however the restructuring process would be different from the previous attempts. DPE was looking at a process which would be monitored on a regular basis. However when it came to privitisation, one needed to look at the industry and determine who would take on an airline such as SAA under the conditions that it was facing. DPE was focused on making the restructuring process work.

[SAT_BOSS]

Many thanks to all the guys with the very positive feedback. Its still as clear as daylight to me = Minus the Math Off Course!:}
That:::
For as long as I still pay taxes in South Africa (and I do) I actually am by default a co owner of each and every one of your SAA :{ babies's asses. And for as long as that is the case I will be on the case of SAA to be accountable for my money.
See some guys actually work to get it together and others don't. That's irrelevant, what is very relevant is that for as long as I am a Tax Payer, I am a co owner, and thus by default have the right to know what you do with my money.
Nothing in life is perfect, but its pretty perfect when you had your kid fall of his bycicle, take him to the county hospital for an X Ray, 3 Stitches, Injections, Antibiotic, Tetanus and then waslk out having had to pay NADA, then its not so bad.
Heck I dont even OWN key for my garage, we would not know how to lock it ... Thanks once more guys & blessings .....

[Avi8tor]

SAA will probably survive the restructuring process and I think the pilots will lose relatively little
SAA will not be privatised and will continue to be supported by the state
You are totally correct in both of the statements. I have said as much in many of the threads. Personally I think the restructuring will change very little.

But just because its the status quo, doesn't make it right. The point is that we have to change attitudes. Otherwise aviation is SA will remain in the dark ages.

This is also NOT a pro/anti new SA debate. Neither about 'jumping ship'.

Negative and unjustified criticism
I see NOTHING unjustified in demanding change at an airline that has wasted BILLIONS of the taxpayers money. Actually its called being a responsible citizen.

P.S. find an economics text book, chapter 1 for the definition of 'the law of diminishing returns'.

[square leg]

Somebody mentioned getting into SAA with only a comm...

The following is from SAA's website:

In order to qualify, applicants must be :-

South African citizens,
matriculated, with a pass in Mathematics or Physical Science
in possession of a valid SA Commercial Pilot’s Licence or higher with an Instrument Rating Endorsement
a valid Class 1 medical.
All applicants should have at least 1,000 hours experience which should include at least 220 hours experience on multi-engine aircraft.

I fail to see why somebody who's only got a comm shouldn't be taken by SAA.

[Frogman1484]

Jetnut let me see if your theory is correct

"I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therefore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in."

So according to that statement Zimbabwe should be the best place to live in right, the zimbo's that are still living there must have the best personalties around and because the rest of the people have left Zimbabwe it is now a much better country to live in....right!!!

Jetnut , name we one thing that has gotten better in the last 5 years, apart from your security system.

[nugpot]

For as long as I still pay taxes in South Africa (and I do) I actually am by default a co owner of each and every one of your SAA babies's asses. And for as long as that is the case I will be on the case of SAA to be accountable for my money.
See some guys actually work to get it together and others don't. That's irrelevant, what is very relevant is that for as long as I am a Tax Payer, I am a co owner, and thus by default have the right to know what you do with my money.

You are actually completely wrong. The state is a legal person, represented in a legal sense by an elected government. It owns certain commercial ventures. You as taxpayer actually has no say except to use your vote to get your choice of government elected. You also do not get a say in how tax money is spent, again only by utilising your vote can you have any input in this process.

After you have paid your taxes as is required by law, the money ceases to be yours and belongs to the state. The same way that you don't get to tell Raymond Ackermann how to run his business after you have spent money at his enterprise.

So to sum up. Whether you like the stance of the current government regarding SAA or not, you have no say and can whinge as long as you want. I suggest you canvas a few more votes to get your personal favourite elected to government and you can then badger him, as your representative to change things at SAA.

I am no fan of the current SAA setup, but I work in an industry where we have lots of other challenges. Safety standards in Africa is on the slide and the regulator seems to be unable to tackle the problem. SAA, using their significant resources has been addressing some of these problems and are doing something to help all the pilots in this country. The have used their pilots and aircraft to get GNSS approaches and RNAV routes validated for all of us to use. They have used their commercial muscle to improve facilities at the airports they operate to, all to the advantage of those that follow. Their pilots are well trained and all of the CRM programmes in SA are based on theirs. Their pilots have maintained high operational standards despite being subjected to revolving management intent on raping the company for personal gain.

That the SAA pilots earn huge salaries in the SA context is true, but they have negotiated those salaries without resorting to strike action. If their current management was prepared to negotiate in good faith, the pilots might have had to take a paycut, but as things currently stand - SAA management is putting themselves in a position where the pilots will win the day. Unfortunately management is trying to threaten SAAPA with an empty gun, and they will fail to win significant concessions.

And Jetnut, please don't applaud this post, because I do not agree with you on anything! I have many other mates at SAA though, and I am particularly tired of the taxpayer argument.

[SAT_BOSS]

After you have paid your taxes as is required by law, the money ceases to be yours and belongs to the state. The same way that you don't get to tell Raymond Ackermann how to run his business after you have spent money at his enterprise.
That about sums it all up, someone pays & you have no leg to stand on ....
If Raymond Ackerman ran SAA he would have had the whole lot of you fired and the few good ones left over would have become tire cleaners!!! Raymond is actually for your information very accountable; it’s called shareholders / stock exchange and things like that.
But after being lobotomized you have to have big Government Protect you. So far SAA has done about two things right:
1. Got a Cadet Scheme going thus leveling the playing field.
2. Sorry can't do the math .... :E

[Gyro Nut]

Nugpot, that reply has to make the most sense I have heard in a long time. Well done. Everything you say is very true. The salary issue for the SAA pilots is also very stale now.

[Avi8tor]

Everything you say is very true. The salary issue for the SAA pilots is also very stale now.
I take it you earn one of those salaries?

Its not about SAA pilot's salaries. If SAA could afford it, they could pay the tea girl a million rands. They cant, and SAA, top to bottom is over paid and underworked. Its broke.

I am fairly sure SAA cant use less fuel, catering is cut to the bone. SAA has entered some silly lease deals to hide its losses. SAA seems to charge market related fares. So what is left?

I still have not seen any viable arguments from any of you SAA types.

[Gyro Nut]

No, also didn't make the cut, but am not bitter and twisted about it. I don't begrudge them their salaries. Nugpot's right, what the government does with our taxpayer's money is the governments prerogative. If we don't like it, the people must vote in a new government. Unfortunately the average SA citizen is clueless as to the financial position of SAA.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

So I guess little fingers in the govt till is OK then.....

[ZERO3L]

Hey Avi8tor! You must have the best job of all judging by the amount of time you have to respond to the various threads! I mean it-I enjoy your inputs, but wish I had the time to reply like you do!!:)Keep it up.:E

[Avi8tor]

LOL...I do.

I don't begrudge them their salaries
Neither do I, its SAA's inability to pay them that gets me.

I find it really funny that guys complain about the government being totally useless on crime, roads, hospital etc, but see totally cool with the idea the government can run the national carrier the same way. I wonder why the double standard?

And if we dont complain about SAA, then how can we complain about anything else?

[fluffyfan]

Avi8tor even though I am out of here, I am still firmly on the side of the SAA pilots.

I find it really funny that guys complain about the government being totally useless on crime, roads, hospital etc, but see totally cool with the idea the government can run the national carrier the same way. I wonder why the double standard?


Not one SAA pilot I have met is happy with the way things are done at SAA, the union has been fighting against those useless :mad: in management for a long time, they refuse to listen to us on account of there pig headed arrogance that lets them believe they know what the :mad: they are doing. Every SAA pilot would like the company to be a profitable suastainable organisation however when the government insists on interfearing and making SAA a social employment agency what can we do?

Are you suggesting that the pilots take a pay cut because of government interference and the total lack of accountability of any of the previous management? I think thats what DJ would like to see (you still not taking the bait DJ?) because he believes pilots are dispensable and there are 500 CV's waiting.............little does he know that even though there are 500 CV's, they may not be many people left who are qualified who want to come to SAA, the pilots run most of the flight Ops department most importaintly the training department and I know for a fact they are struggling right now converting 60 or so 747 pilots to the A340......Only DJ could explain to you how 100 new pilots are going to be trained from a training section that is already working hard.......God forbid the training pilots start leaving then we will see some fun.

Like it or not SAA is a legacy airline that has been around for a very long time (they say second in the world, although cant confirm this) we operate big aircraft and we fly around the world, the pilots deserve to be remunated as such, we are not Comair, Nationwide, 1time Kulula so please dont compare us to them. I am not sure what fleet size has to do with how much we should get paid, maybe we should look at how long the airline has been around versus how much we are paid, what that got to anything you may ask.......its taken that long for the pilots at SAA to negotiate a decent wage. Pilots are like Aircraft you need them to run an airline, I dont see SAA running off to Airbus or Boeing and demanding a cut in the lease rates.......because management :mad: up. So why must we cut the pilots salaries, the waythings are going experienced pilots are a rare comodity, Emirates (which you may know) need 500 pilots next year, 600 the following year and it continues up, they themselves dont know how they are going to crew the aircraft they are getting, Qantas needs 500 pilots....the list goes on and on, so my untrained management brain tells me that maybe you should pay your pilots well and keep them or let them go and open a whole can of worms as to how you replace them........DJ dont be short sighted on how easy it is, you may think that your experience at Mango is how it works.....not really, try talking to the Emirates recruitment people, you may get the true picture then, oh I forgot you want to make us all contractors with no pension plans..........thats fine, but go and find out how much the rest of the world is paying for contractors, why would anyone work for SAA on a contract basis when the rest of the world is offering twice the amount (and you are safe in those countries)

[fluffyfan]

Suity yes they could outsource there training......at huge cost

Salaries are big at SAA I admit that, this is only a recent developement however, the pilots were paid :mad: in the past, the good salaries are due to clever negotiations and 100% representation from our union, if the local competition pilots could only stand together like SAAPA you may find things somewhat different in Comair, Nationwide, 1Time etc.

Its my understanding that SAAPA is willing to negotiate big concessions to the company, however they want assurances that it will be sustainable and that when things change the agreements revert to how they were, the company is demanding an unrealistic profit in the years following restructuring, they are in fact aiming for a target not achieved by any airline in the world that has undergone restructuring, the company is demanding a few things that are unrealisitic including stardard conditions of employment across the board........so the tea lady has as many free tickets as a Captain who has been there 35 years.........the pilots will give concesions, we are just gun shy because this company negotiates in bad faith and they have proved this time and time again.

SAA is short of pilots at the moment, that is a fact so if they start retrenching pilos you can start closing routes and shutting down fleets.....end of SAA.

Lufthansa flies E135's (or 145's) thats a small jet, I bet there pilots are paid well, you may find its just a seniority thing as to which aircraft you fly at Lufthansa.

To be honest with you Suity I dont know which way to go, that song "should I stay or should I go" comes to mind........lets just say that its up to SAA to make the move, the only reason I stay in SA is because of the Job at SAA, why else would I live in a country where I am a second class citizen, my kids are disadvantaged because of there skin colour, there is rampant crime where life means nothing, horrific corruption etc etc etc.....all this for 40+% tax on my salary

[propdrop]

There are certainly some very interesting opinions expressed, and being everyone having iq's of a decent nature all of them have merit. :mad:t is in the eye of the beholder methinks. What i think though is the nature of SAA's competition is being ignored. They may be competing against 1time, comair etc locally, but they are in an international market which the local carriers knows very little about. Becuase of this you can never compare pilot or any other persons salary for that matter against that of the local guys. They have to compete on an international level, in terms of salaries and numbers(to be the devils advocate you are allowed 1000hrs in 365 rolling days, why not reach that??).

Pilot salaries are not the issue here. Total company HR cost is. The quetions are simple a)how does SAA salaries compare to the BA's,virgin etc of the world. b) if they are competing with the major carriers, in terms of seats per flight filled, salaries paid across board and aircraft operated, why the :mad:ck are they losing money. the reasons may be as big and obvious as SAA's pilot salaries, but those need to be adressed, what the pilots are being paid are irrelevant provided that they are competative salaries.

[Avi8tor]

Salaries are big at SAA I admit that......if the local competition pilots could only stand together............you may find things somewhat different in Comair, Nationwide, 1Time etc.

The staff at the other airlines could go on strike for SAA style money, but the difference here that if the airline doesnt have it, it doesnt have it. At SAA, the begging bowl comes out and the taxpayer chips in.

I see NO difference between SAA's B738's and Comair's B734's, maybe a few extra windows. Ditto with the A319.

If SAA didnt have the magic begging bowl, its staff would have been the highest paid ex employees.

[Gyro Nut]

Apparently the Yank consultants Seabury admitted that SAA has one of the lowest labour costs in the world. Strange that they are seeking the R638 million to come from concessions from labour then. :hmm::hmm::hmm:

I think Comair could well afford to pay better, or to back off the work load a bit, but when you see who runs Comair, what can I say, they like to get their pound of flesh. CPA need to put a new demand on the table re: salaries, or negotiate a Extra Flight Pay agreement, like SAAPA did.

[line-driver]

I think Comair could well afford to pay better, or to back off the work load a bit, but when you see who runs Comair, what can I say, they like to get their pound of flesh. CPA need to put a new demand on the table re: salaries, or negotiate a Extra Flight Pay agreement, like SAAPA did.

The CLAN will never go for this, its not in their nature to help non-CLAN members.

[ByAirMail]

Jetnut,
It is called a brain drain, and judging by statements like " the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." you will definitely not qualify.

The majority of emigrants are in the medical field ( just visit a Doctor or hospital in Aus. or Canada) and engineers , now followed by pilots it seems.

Like frogman said, the same foundation Zimbabwe is build on.

[fluffyfan]

The staff at the other airlines could go on strike for SAA style money, but the difference here that if the airline doesnt have it, it doesnt have it.

I think that the airlines we are talking about do have "it". They will let you believe they dont however because then the money goes elsewhere and not always to the right place, how come VB has so many nice sports cars? How come Easyjet and Ryanair salaries are so good (comparitivley speaking), I just did a search.....Mango on Dec 02 JHB-DUR -JHB is R600 (approx).....Easyjet on Dec 02 LON-Edinburgh-LON is R690 (46 GBP) so the revenues are similar, the infratructure in SA and the labour must be vastly cheaper than in the UK, so where is all the money going, maybe the airlines here in SA are just honest hard working businessmen who pay what they can out of the goodness of there hearts..........I doubt it, its all numbers and risk assesment to them, they want the most profit they can get and bank on the fact that there is a pool of labour waiting to sell there first born child to get into an airline.......I dont think this is very wise, times are changing fast and these SA airlines might just realise to late, its simple maths, how many pilots are being produced vs how many pilots do you need (and I am not talking PPL)

[Avi8tor]

How come Easyjet and Ryanair salaries are so good (comparitivley speaking),
What is the colour of the sky in your world?

Please refer to a current thread in terms and endearments. http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434)

"....SFO EZY on a sell your soul TRSS. About 3300 net."

And remember in the UK you need 50% of ur salary for accommodation and that would be for a cupboard with a shower in it!!!

Transport is crazy expensive and that is based on 85hrs a month. Would like to know what a SFO at SAA would clear with 20 hrs of exceedance and compare life styles?

[Frogman1484]

Fluffyfan...I think they call it Credit Card Debt :}

[fluffyfan]

What is the colour of the sky in your world?

Blue.....yours?

Had you read the posts properly you would have knoticed I was not comparing SAA salaries, I was comparing Ryanair/Easyjet to our equivalent in SA and the result is.......Ryanair and Easyjet pay much more to there crew, the whole discussion was based on your quote

The staff at the other airlines could go on strike for SAA style money, but the difference here that if the airline doesnt have it, it doesnt have it. At SAA,

What was interesting to note on that forum you kindly shared with me was BA and Virgin.....take home GBP 4000 and thats 2 years of service, Ryanair Captain takes home about GBP1700+flight pay...lets call it GBP2500.....so in summary

Virgin/BA.........GBP4000 or R56 000 (2 years service)
Ryanair Captain....GBP2500 or R37 500 (about 5 years service)

I can assure you both those amounts are higher than what a SFO at SAA is taking home with 5 years or more service.........

Yes the cost of living is much higher there but the interest rate is very small so mortgages are affordable, there is law and order, descent public schooling is available, descent free medical, public transport systems.

We are paid well at SAA, but you have to put it in the context of the country we live in and if its worth paying the pilots well to keep them or letting them go to greener pastures...........the way things are going worldwide, taking the cheap option now might just cost you later on

[JG1]

The posters here aren't having a go at the SAA pilots per se. What I've noticed is there are some SAA pilots who post on here who come across as very arrogant and superior, the main basis of their argument is that (1) they are correct in whatever they say and (2) the only reason others are moaning is that they are not in SAA. So they get shredded. But its not all SAA pilots. We all know people at SAA and by and large they are great guys. We are not having a go at SAA pilots.

That said, the problems still remain.

Why should SAA pilots be paid comparative rates to 'other global airlines'? If you are a lawyer in SA should you get paid the same as a lawyer in NYC? A doctor? Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate. SAA pilots should be paid on a par with other local pilots.

Half of SAA's fleet is domestic. Whats the diff flying a 738 for SAA or a 738 for Mango? The Mango pilots work twice as hard and get paid just over half as much. No diff flying domestic, if you're on a 737, MD, F28, etc you are doing the same job - no reason why salaries should be double. There is something to the argument that internationally we compete (if you can call it that) with other airlines, but remember they are based overseas, and have foreign networks, they are not just returning to JNB like SAA does. And if it comes to that, SAA isn't even competing healthily on that route, so all the more reason to cut costs. When SAA goes to Lagos or Libreville or Lusaka are they competing with the 'other African airlines'? If so, should they get what a 737 driver from Brazzaville gets?

Someone hit the nail on the head with the taxman stepping up to the begging bowl. The only reason why SAA pilots get paid so much is that their union pulled the wool over managements eyes, management didn't really care as it was all coming out of state coffers anyway. Bottom line is....SAA pilots are getting overpaid by local market standards because they are state-subsidised. If SAA were a private airline it would never have happened, it could not sustain such high FDC salaries. And now it's being rationalised, and costs are being cut, things have got to come into line. If negotiations fail, because SAA is technically broke, the govt has a very good case in shutting the whole airline down completely, and forming a new one immediately with the same aircraft, just a new set of staff, all being paid market related salaries and a new set of management systems.

It all boils down to this. SAA could kick out most of its pilots tomorrow (obviously not all at once) and replace them with pilots from the local pool for much less pay. You all know this is true. So the only market-related rate they should pay pilots is the local rate. It does'nt matter what some 777-driver from Hong Kong is getting. Hong Kong has nothing to do with it, SAA just lands there and comes home. Doesn’t matter who flies them, SAA just need to fly their machines from JNB to X and back safely, thats all. Endex.


Someone else responded to a gripe that pilots are getting into SAA with only a comm with " I fail to see why somebody who's only got a comm shouldn't be taken by SAA" after seeing SAA's minimum requirement is only 1000hrs and a comm on their website. Well there's the heart of the matter. Why should people with only a comm get into SAA when there are hundreds of multi-thousand-hour ATPL's who could be employed? Whether it's nepotism or affirmative action, not taking the best person for the job is what has killed (not "is busy killing") SAA. Until the airline gets the best people in the jobs it needs them to do, its never going to recover on its own. Poor staff = poor company = poor results, proven again and again.

Someone else said "I rejoice at the fact that its people like you who actually decide to remove yourself from South Africa, as in the end, the people who remain are of a special personality with specific levels of tolerance tailored for the South African way, therfore that in itself will make this a better country to live and work in." Ja the people who remain are either stuck there or criminals preying on those who are stuck there or BEE elite who are bathing deep in the gravy.

Just listen to South Africa's national anthem - its just as much of a mess as the state of the nation. Three or four different tunes, dunno how many different languages, all cobbled together, hardly anyone knows the words. Its embarrassing. Anyway at least the rugby team looks good to win the world cup this time round again. Nice to have something good happening for a change.

[JetNut]

Shame, you really are a confused and narrow minded individual. Your answers to various posts are so far from the truth its frightening.


Ja the people who remain are either stuck there or criminals preying on those who are stuck there or BEE elite who are bathing deep in the gravy.



Yet another expat justification based on a subconscious regret stemming from the realisation of an illinformed decision to leave.

The above quote by you is based on a flawed theory, as by showing only one highly skilled individual who chooses to live and work in SA will cancel that argument.

Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills. The fact that the UAE society consists of 80% expats should tell you something about there business ethic.

Why can't you just be happy for the people who have decided to stay behind and make SA the best they can. We are all happy for you living in a "safe", "clean" country abroad. So give us a chance too man.

As someone correctly mentioned earlier, the desert is a short term solution, so at the end of the day we all want to return. Who's then going to make sure that everyting is still as the way you left it when you do decide to come back.

I too was tempted by the glitz and shiny aeroplanes in the desert...but through introspection I decided against it....ah well time will tell whether this decision was a good one, or not.

[Jamex]

"If negotiations fail, because SAA is technically broke, the govt has a very good case in shutting the whole airline down completely, and forming a new one immediately with the same aircraft, just a new set of staff, all being paid market related salaries and a new set of management systems."


Look out at FAJS next time around. Notice the bright orange Mango livery? This is happening already! Negotiations should be done in good faith. Clearly SAA management will not be showing any good faith in their negotiations. DJ always responded previously to set the record straight. He has been conspicuously quiet on this one!

[JG1]

Jetnut, I don't regret leaving SA. The modern SA is not the SA I had a childhood in and grew up in, its a totally different place. Sure, I miss the african sunsets and sunrises and the landscape....but all I have to do to justify my decision is pick up a SA newspaper.

If its not serious crime or runaway corruption its government ineptness, or another scandal where they all get away with it in the end. MP's and Ministers with criminal records, the Telecommunications Minister not far behind the Health Minister in uselessness, more renaming places, and more political infighting between people and parties whom you fund yet you will never ever have the slightest say. I even heard a radio advert on 94.7 streaming the other day advising refugees of their rights:{ Gotta say, Mugabe's done the impossible, every time we think it can't get any worse, it does!

In the aviation scene more old jets being bought or sold or painted different colours, the flag-carrier failing....eish what a great place. Going African. The jungle is closing in.

Jetnut there's a whole world out here, places which are every bit as beautiful as SA, where your kids have equal opportunities at education and employment. If they want to get ahead they don't have to find a black parasite to partner just so that they can start a business. Places where you can sleep soundly at night without fear of being beaten and killed after your wife is raped in front of you. Places where your car can break down and you have more than a 50-50 chance of survival. Where you can park your car safely without the everpresent 'Hello boss' extortion. Jetnut, there are places with sidewalks in the outside world, neat, kept sidewalks, instead of the dust and rubble the SA taxi drivers use to fly past you ruining your Sunday-afternoon polish job.

Places where, if you bend over backward to help people, like most whites in SA have done with the blacks since transformation, they respond in kind instead of always demanding more. See the light.

You ask "Why is it that many world-renowned surgeons, engineers, scientists etc. still choose to live and work in SA (they're obviously stupid, or smoking pot, huh), this homegrown expertise provides for a very sustainable economy. Whereas in Dubai, HK etc. these governments need to import the skills." Jetnut, many many many have. Why are SA hospitals in such a state? Why are there foreign contract engineers required? Ones that I know who stay in SA do so because of elderly parents whom they don't want to leave (but will leave as soon as the last one has pegged) or a wife who doesn't want to leave for family reasons. Some do want to stay, they like it there, but you do get some stoopid doctors too:p

[journeyman]

JetNut,

Yet another expat justification based on a subconscious regret stemming from the realisation of an illinformed decision to leave.

On the contrary, I think it was a very well-informed decision to leave. Since you're a fellow that likes to bandy the facts about, try these for size:

I refer you to the UN Human Development Index (HDI), which ranks countries based on the usual criteria such as life expectancy, literacy, education, standard of living, etc. The countries that you love to bash for their climate, pollution, lack of legal recourse, etc (although you deny doing it) are normally the "sandpit" (see EK, EY, QR, etc) and HK.

Although the HDI does not list HK specifically, Singapore (which I'm sure you'll put in the same category) and the UAE rank 25th and 49th respectively. SA, on the other hand, finds itself in a rather lowly 121st position, wedged firmly between Equitorial Guinea and Tajikistan. You must be so proud.

For the record, I - like suitcaseman - have no intention of returning to SA in my latter years, so please don't leave the outside light on for me. You'll also note that according to that survey, with the exception of Haiti, the 30 least livable countries in the world are all in Africa. Ill-informed decision? I think not.

[JG1]

These days, it not 'last one to leave turn out the light', its 'last one to leave turn off the generator':}

In later years it'll be 'last one to leave blow out the candle':p

[fluffyfan]

JG1 your quote
Why should SAA pilots be paid comparative rates to 'other global airlines'? If you are a lawyer in SA should you get paid the same as a lawyer in NYC? A doctor? Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate. SAA pilots should be paid on a par with other local pilots.
Are there global rate scales? No. The local market determines the pay rate are you sure about this JG1...have you done any research or you just hoping like :mad: you are right?

Ok, then please go to the Middle East forum and post the same :mad: about Emirates......they should be paid the same as Jupiter Airlines Jupiter Airlines is an airline based in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates. They began by flying domestic routes within the United Arab Emirates, but have added various major cities in the Middle East to their list of destinations.The company has grown from humble beginning with one 737 in 1996, to become one of the largest flights network in the region

Maybe BA should be paid the same as Ryanair, maybe United the same as "Startedyesterdaywith1Kingair Airlines"

In fact here is an idea, every time a new airline is started, and no matter who the boss is or how he has found a new way to screw the crew.....we should re-evaluate everyone else's salaries and bring them all in line with the new company

:D dont think you thought this one through bright boy

[nugpot]

Ryanair Captain....GBP2500 or R37 500 (about 5 years service)

I can assure you both those amounts are higher than what a SFO at SAA is taking home with 5 years or more service.........

I beg to differ fluffy. In any case, even with only 5 years service, he IS a captain......

That's besides the point though. We all know that pilot salaries at SAA is not why the airline is in trouble. That reducing pilot renumeration will solve the problem is just pure fantasy.

[fluffyfan]

I beg to differ fluffy
Beg all you want, I have a small car on the car scheme (R130 000 Rand worth) that comes off my salary, and 3 others on my medical aid.
I take home less than that published above a month.......and according to suitcaseman that figure is too low
I just spoke to a couple of Ryanair pilots - youngsters earning a whole lot more than whats posted - remember, most of those posts are from cadets.

But yes fully agree.....pilots salaries never were the problem

[JetNut]

that makes pilots so reluctant to leave.

Just heard that an FO handed in his resignation, and after coming to his senses, withdrew the resignation just four days later. Guess, he's not going to make that mistake again :}.

[saywhat]

To move is a very, very big issue. Especially if you have a family. If you are young and single, it's as easy as pissing in a bucket, but when there are other people to consider, it becomes increasingly difficult. I take my hat off to those that have left, it's a bold move. I'm staying for now though, and I don't give a rats arse what others think of my decision. Emirates, et al will always be there, they are not going anywhere. If required I'll apply at a later stage. I'm not going to panic now, that's exactly what is expected of me by management.

[SAASFO]

The only pilot who handed in his resignation was a very junior Indian FO who had been offered a job by Qatar. He withdrew it after both his fleet Captain and the director of flight ops called him in and convinced him to do so.

Why haven't others withdrawn their resignations (17 so far) - because they are all white and the company did not call them in and ask them to stay!!!!

[JG1]

Fluffy... start thinking and you will, albeit very slowly, realise that Emirates hasn't got herds of local pilots clamouring at the door like SAA has. The UAE simply hasn't got a large pool of experienced local ATPL's knocking on the door to get into Emirates, so Emirates has to pay better or on a par with the other airlines it is recruiting from to attract them to the UAE. Bet you as soon as the Jupiter guys get enough experience Emirates will take them in.

And, lightie, if I had wanted any sh1t out of you, I would have squeezed your head:E

[fluffyfan]

:ooh: you got me running scared JG1, but my point stands, even if we excluded Emitrates from your little scenario, which I dont think we should but ok lets do it just for fun.......what about BA? should they get the same as Eezyjet or Ryanair? what about Qantas? United? ok I will stop there

And, lightie, if I had wanted any sh1t out of you, I would have squeezed your head

Big talk for a bullet, just have your prunes tonight and have a nice sleep Grandpa....ok

[FlingWingKing]

FANTASTIC post SAT_BOSS.

People, focus. The last two pages on this thread were all about who earns what and who not.

The problem at SAA is not the pilots or any of its operational employee's.

....it is not the fact that it used to be an old SAAF boy's club.

....neither is it the fact that SAA pilot salaries are not on par with the local market.

The problem with SAA is simply just K:mad:K management....from day one. It has been a place where "connected" people can make a little money from a badly controlled state department....ie, thieves stealing taxpayers' money.

The problem at present seem to be the worst management yet. We have a totally incompetent management team, lead my a photocopier salesman of the early nineties, who is totally in over his head.

Combined with this total lack of leadership, is corruption in the form of BEE contracts. BEE companies have been paid for services rendered but are yet to render the service.

[JuniorFO]

Just to set the record straight. All employees submitting a letter of resignation are given a 2 week "cooling off" period in which resignations may be rescinded. Due to personal circumstances at the time, I decided to exercise that option within the window.

It has nothing to do with race, or that I'm "indian". Hopefully this will clear any misconceptions and reduce animosity.

All pilots at SAA are treated equally. And one has to only look at pilots who have been dismissed in the past, and you will note that race has played no role whatsover in that decision, only competence.

[411 B]

Dont TUNE Bru:DObviously your a fantasic Airbus pilot. I don`t know who my fleet Captain is:ok:Well done, did they offer you a COMMAND:E to stay? Looks like they may need a few pilots to stay, now that EK are looking at SAA for crew. Good luck, and fly the flag high:eek:

[Yossarian]

Been very quiet in Dubai for the last few years, but suddenly my phone is starting to ring a lot with guys "making enquiries". A few have gone further. The sign is there. Read it anyway you like.

[SAASFO]

JuniorFO, nobody is having a go at you, and you are certainly the calibre of pilot that SAA should be trying to retain, but the fact is that you were personally contacted by two SAA flight ops managers, but no white pilots were contacted.

Additionally, SAA's negoatiators have stated to SAAPA that if there are retrenchments, they would exclude DG pilots, meaning that their original intention has been to try and reduce the number of white pilots at SAA. In fact, I believe they have actually stated that to the SAAPA negotiators. Obviously SAAPA would not allow that but that the company actually thinks they can discriminate against white pilots makes me sick :yuk:

[fly nice]

JuniorFO,

Quote:
All pilots at SAA are treated equally.

And one has to only look at pilots who have been dismissed in the past, and you will note that race has played no role whatsover in that decision, only competence.

....only some are treated more equally than others. It did get at least one individual some massive leeway and a foreign audience before being shown the door anyway. This is not a dig at you, just your misguided statement.

[nugpot]

I think this article is a good illustration of "Command and Control" at SAA:

SAA told to 'pay up'

September 20 2007 at 07:20AM

National carrier South African Airways is facing a hefty legal bill after no-one arrived at the Durban High Court on Wednesday to represent it in a matter in which it was suing a local travel agent for more than R4-million.

KwaZulu-Natal Judge President Vuka Tshabalala first looked incredulous, and then laughed, when no-one appeared when the matter was called on the trial roll.

"No appearance for SAA?" he said, shaking his head. He ordered the usher to call the name outside, jokingly asking if there was a plane out there.

He then dismissed the action, ordering the airline to pay punitive costs.

The matter which should have gone on trial was a claim for R4,7-million against Riaz Motala, the manager of Globetrotters Travel and Tours, trading as Skylink, in Albert Street.

In documents before the court, the airline claimed that Skylink had sold tickets on its behalf. Between November and December 2004, Skylink had processed cash ticket sales to the value of R4,7-million but had failed to hand over the money.

The airline further alleged that between 2003 and 2005, Motala had carried on business "recklessly, with the intent to defraud creditors and/or grossly negligently".

It was alleged that, acting with others, he had developed a credit facility with major banks to channel funds from Globetrotters "to other unknown facilities".

He had also deposited personal cheques into the business bank account to misrepresent to financial institutions and the airline that the company had sound financial standing.

Motala was opposing the court action, describing the allegations as "wanton, reckless and vexatious".

[ERASER]

(This was e-mailed to SAA staff on Friday afternoon. Question # 11 about sums the actual purpose of the restructuring. :* )


Questions & Answers
(GM Roadshows)

Question 1

Now that the company has issued Section-189 letters to all employees, what is the process?


The section-189 letters that SAA issued on 5 September gives the company 60 days to consult with recognized trade unions in order to come up with solutions to the R638-million gap. We are talking about alternatives to retrenchments, the bulk of which relates to renegotiating conditions of employment and labour agreements to standardise employment conditions across the board. A number of agreements have been put in place with employees over the past 10 to 15 years, some of which are highly onerous to the organisation. Rather than having different agreements with different groupings of employees, be it management, pilots, crew members or junior employees, the proposal is to standardise and simplify conditions of employment throughout the organisation. This will help SAA to return to profitability on a sustainable basis.

Question 2

What’s going to happen if management and the unions cannot reach agreement?


At the end of the 60 days, if there is no viable alternative on the table and we cannot close the R638-million gap, we will unfortunately have to start retrenching. Given that SAA has looked at every aspect of the business and done all it can to reduce costs and grow revenue, the only alternative will be to retrench employees. The current estimate is that if no savings are achieved in negotiations with labour on employment conditions and labour agreements, a total of 2 232 employees will have to be retrenched. This will take place in a staggered manner.

Question 3

What happens if we save only a portion of R638-million in the consultations?


The number of people to be retrenched will be determined by the extent to which we can close the gap. The more that we can save through renegotiating conditions of employment and labour agreements, the fewer people we will have to retrench.




Question 4

What are the timelines, ie, when is the final decision to be made?


At the end of the 60 day period, SAA management will announce the extent of the retrenchments as well as the process and timing thereof.

Question 5

What impact will the Section-189 process have on me?


Every job in the organisation is affected by the Section-189 process. This consultation process has already taken place with managers, with the result being that we have reduced management by 223 positions. We are now moving into the next phase, which means that all jobs in the bargaining units are affected by Section-189. There has to be consultation with the representative unions which will make recommendations to management on your behalf. Employees in the bargaining units should make their recommendations through to the unions.

Question 6

Will junior employees receive Voluntary Severance Packages (VSPs)?


There will be VSPs offered to junior employees whose jobs are affected. This will take place in a similar manner to those positions affected due to the grounding of the Boeing 747-400s.

Question 7

To what extent have the recent resignations reduced the 2 232 figure?


The R638-million gap is based on the budget at the beginning of this financial year. Any resignations will contribute to a reduction in the 2 232-figure.

Question 8

Are the pilots being affected and if so, how?


The section-189 notice applies equally to all employees of SAA. To the extent that flight numbers are being reduced, an appropriate number of pilots and cabin crew will be affected.

Question 9

Have the unions agreed to make concessions to their existing agreements?


The unions have made some concessions but these are not fundamental in nature. We need to standardise all conditions of employment if we are to reduce costs on a sustainable basis and secure the future profitability and stability of the airline. We are hopeful that our negotiations will lead to an outcome that is in the best interests of the airline.



Question 10

If SAA cuts 2 232 jobs, will it be able to operate effectively?


The plan is not to retrench this number of people, but rather to fundamentally restructure and reduce SAA’s cost base through renegotiating all labour agreements and conditions of employment. If we do have to retrench the total of 2 232 jobs, it will be staggered over a period of time and we will have to consider the options regarding how SAA operates in the future.

Question 11

Why has SAA management said that all agreements with unions should be scrapped and that a clean-slate approach should be adopted?


The aim of having standardised labour agreements is to have an equitable agreement across all employee groups so that there are no privileged groups, including management. The current agreements were inherited from the past when the country’s apartheid policies were still in place and they must be reformed if SAA is to grow in the future. In their totality, they prevent the country’s employment equity regulations from being fully implemented.

It is not possible to retain these agreements as they will ultimately hold SAA back in the future – we need to adopt a clean-slate approach and renegotiate all labour agreements. These agreements were put in place when SAA was effectively the only national airline operating in SA; and we now need to be able to reduce costs to operate in a competitive environment.

Some examples of these agreements include:

· SAA cannot open a new route without negotiating with labour, typically resulting in additional costs for the airline;

· In terms of employing pilots, the experience of the new pilot cannot be taken into consideration in terms of being promoted to a captain. Promotion is made in terms of seniority, which tends to prejudicial to black pilots

· Retrenchment of pilots is also based on seniority so, for example, a 60-year old pilot cannot be retrenched ahead of a 40-year old pilot. Again, this tends to affect black pilots who were employed at SAA most recently.

Question 12

Why has the figure of proposed retrenchments increased in recent months?


SAA has approached the issue of labour in a phased manner. The first phase was management, the second phase relates to 711 employees who will be affected by various initiatives being implemented, such as the grounding of the B747-400s and the launch of the One-Stop-Shop, which combines SAA’s check-in, ticketing and Voyager functions. The current phase is the re-negotiation of labour agreements and conditions of employment, which aims to result in the saving of R638-million.




Question 13

What sacrifices will management be making?


All initiatives, including the standardisation of conditions of employment, include management. In the process to date, 223 managers are currently being retrenched. SAA’s challenge regarding costs is not a recent one. Over the past two years, senior management has not received any salary increases or bonuses, which they were entitled to. It is also worth noting that with the exit of 223 managers, the remaining managers will have to take on more work than they currently have.

Question 14

What can go wrong during the restructuring?


If SAA employees take their eye off the ball and lose focus, it will affect the business. Employees need to ensure that they keep their focus on customers to protect SAA’s revenue, and to make sure that the business continues to operate effectively.

Question 15

What if I want to contribute to cost savings?


SAA management remains open to all suggestions from employees on saving costs and generating revenue. There are various avenues for people to come forward – you can go to your union representative, your line manager or write directly to the CEO.

Question 16

Will the sale and partial privatisation of certain divisions of SAA help the financial situation?


SAA is currently doing a due diligence exercise of each of the entities to establish the possibility of getting outside equity partners. One of the reasons SAA management plans to unbundle the business is to simplify and make it more manageable. This will give management greater control over the finances of the organisation.

Question 17

What happens if any division of SAA gets more work?


All additional work will be evaluated against the overall strategy for that unit. If it makes sense to take on additional work as it will allow SAA to grow, then we will do so. But SAA cannot grow its way out of trouble, it first needs to turn the airline around, stabilise it and then grow.




Question 18
SAA has set a target of a 7.5% profit-margin before tax within a period of 18-month. Why has SAA set such a high profit-before-tax margin?


The average profit-margin for the peer group of airlines against which SAA benchmarks itself is forecast at more than 7, 5% this year. This includes airlines such as British Airways, Qantas, Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Delta and Air New Zealand. These airlines are SAA’s major international competitors. Qantas, for example, is expecting a profit margin of 12% this year while British Airways’ is expected to reach more than 10%. It is important for SAA to set and meet this target to protect our future, given the volatility of fuel (the oil price this week hit a record high of US$80); fluctuations in the exchange-rate and vigorous competition in the market. A profit margin of 7, 5% is essential if SAA is going to generate a sufficient cash-flow to acquire new aircraft without which we will not be competitive in the future.

Question 19

Does SAA have a plan in place to counter the threat posed by the increased frequencies given to other airlines, most recently Emirates?


While SAA welcomes competition, any increased frequencies allocated to another airline raise the bar for the airline. This will require the airline to find additional cost-savings as well as new sources of revenue. One element of the current restructuring plan is to scale down SAA’s cost-structure to allow SAA to compete effectively, which in turn will help to restore the airline to profitability over the next 12 to 18 months. The vigorous nature of competition from other airlines is one of the reasons we have set a profit margin target of 7, 5%. It is a critical element of ensuring that SAA can survive, be competitive and grow in the future.

[thincatblue]

The problem is Suitcaseman - the political puppet masters in the goverment would still holding the ropes - the only inprovement that I would suggest to your solution is to privatise SAA completely- no more BEE or afirmative / equal opportunity employment- get the best man or woman for the job - let SAA fly to destinations that makes financial sense and not becauce they were supportive of the "struggle".

Would this ever happen? I think not!

[Avi8tor]

Amen brother. Get the state out of the airline business.

Sadly the history of the nation will haunt SAA for many years to come. The good ol' SAR&H was for white, mainly afrikaans males after 1948. Now 60 yrs later, the new lot are off down the same road.

Kinda didn't think we were gonna get away with a 'sorry', did you?