Vfr To Ifr / Ir And Imc

[skyhigher]

If an aircraft departs vfr and unavoidably enters imc conditions, what are the legalities and practicalities of using instruments approaches to break cloud and return to vmc. If you contact ATC and inform them of such an issue are you still considered VFR or IFR? I understand in the uk there is no such thing as vrf on top.

Do the caa frown on such cases and are ATC comfortable with such practices?

Would an airborne IFR need filled, even if the aircraft was not certified for IFR flight (2 radios, autopilot etc...). What other practicle aspects would need considered? Is this a grey area or are there clear rules for such cases?

Any experiences or thoughts would be welcomed.

[GASH !]

If you enter IMC then you're now IFR. You can cancel IFR and revert back to the visual flight rules once you regain VMC.

A flight plan is not required for IFR unless you wish to enter controlled airspace. You should look at the ANO and see exactly what equipment is or rather isn't required to fly IFR outside controlled airspace, you might be surprised.

[skyhigher]

would you know where this would be located in the ANO?

[GASH !]

Indeed, if you go to section 1 - schedule 4 articles 16(9) and 19(2) you will find the equipment required.

It may also be worth looking at section 2 - section 6 for the Instrument flight rules. I'm still amazed at the amount of pilots I meet that are qualified to fly IFR that are clueless as to what the Instrument flight rules actually are.

You can view all this on the CAA site, just do a search there for CAP393 and take it from there.

Cheers

[homeguard]

There is no such thing as inavoidably entering IMC other than owing to a lack of pre-flight planning or failing to look out of the window.
If IMC conditions are entered then undetake a 180 Rate1 turn or descend if it is safe to do so.
IFR or VFR has nothing to do with ATC but are mearly the rules under which you have chosen to fly. If the visibility is less than VMC (<1500m and the relevant closeness to cloud minimas) then you must fly in accordance with IFR whether you are talking to ATC or not. A UK issued PPL will further restrict the pilot to a minimum of 3000m in flight visibilty.
Your next point is obvious (or should be). If the road speed limit is 40mph would you ask if the police frown on the speed being exceeded or if the Dept. of Transport are comfortable with your speeding.
You are either VMC flying VFR or IFR or IMC flying IFR and there are no ifs or buts.
The Certificate of Airworthiness will state whether the aircraft is approved for IMC flights. If it is certified for VFR only then you should remain so.

[skyhigher]

gash, thanks for the pointer as to cap393, just what i was looking for.

anymore input welcomed.

[foxmoth]

Homeguard,
A number of inaccuracies in your post, it is possible to end up IMC unintentionally without bad planning (unless you are only going to fly in absolutely perfect wx - probably about 3 days a year in the UK:}) - the met man has been known to get it wrong!:eek: Good planning should mean this happens very rarely, but it does happen.
secondly, besides You are either VMC flying VFR or IFR or IMC flying IFR and there are no ifs or buts. you can also be VMC flying IFR (yes, if you are IMC then you must be IFR).
If someone should end up in the situation of being above or even in cloud when not qualified for whatever reason, I think you will then find ATC will do their best to sort it out for them, normally helping them to an area they can descend safely in VMC, but should it be needed then it could even be to an instrument approach, probably a radar approach so all the pilo thas to do is follow instructions, because this is getting someone out of trouble the normal equipment/qualifications go out the window, what happens then will very much depend on why it happened, if say the forecast was bad and the pilot had not got one or had gone anyway then it could possibly result in a prosecution, though even then I think the authorities are reluctant to do this in case it puts people off calling for help when they need it and just a caution letter and possibly some xtra instruction is all that results.:\

[Chilli Monster]

I understand in the uk there is no such thing as vrf on top.

Another misconception - of course you can be VFR on top. However, to be able to do so you must hold either an IMC rating or an IR, as a plain, no extra ratings UK PPL holder is not permitted to fly out of sight of the surface.

It's a licence limitation - not a rules of the air limitation

[Deano777]

Quite right chilli, alot of pilots have a mis-conception of the rules regarding VFR/IFR & the privilages of their license.

[DFC]

I am totally with homeguard on this.

Inadvertent entry into IMC by a non-qualified pilot = wait for the accident.

Inadvertent entry into IMC only happens when one does not look out the window. If one was VMC in the first place then one must leave VMC to go IMC.....why not simply look out the window and ensure that you stay VMC.

Planning will not help predict when the weather is not as forecast....but....planning for that posibility can prevent one being left in the position where the safer option is to land in an unprepared field.

We do not teach operation at minimum level and the precautionary landing simply for those to be ignored when the only alternative is unqualified flight in IMC.

If weather at the place where one flies usually only permits 2 or 3 suitable days per year then either move to a better climate or obtain further training/ qualifications and/or better equipment to permit flight on more days per year.

Reading the comments passed on the qualifying crosscountry regarding the minimum safe level to fly at (incorrectly called a minimum safe level or Safty Altitude etc) mentioned the need for such a level in case the flight entered IMC..........no! no! no!
That level is there so that if you are being forced down to it by the cloudbase, it is time to make a decision to turn back or divert. Going IMC in such a case is simply not an option.

Finally. Recently heard while inbound to a regional in the UK;

XXX Approach G-YYYY request FIS

G-YYYY, XXX Approach pass your message

G-YYYY is a PA28 from AAA to BBB via CCC 3000ft on QNH10?? VFR intermittant IMC request FIS.

Lovely R/T but how can they believe that they are VFR when flying in and out of IMC?

Regards,

DFC

[Contacttower]

VFR intermittant IMC request FIS


Surely they should have asked for a radar service if they were going in and out of clouds?

[Oktas8]

VFR intermittant IMC request FIS

Well, at least he was honest! More experienced pilots might have transmitted "having difficulty maintaining VMC, request FIS". Let's not shoot the poor guy just because he makes the mistake of telling the truth...

[foxmoth]

We do not teach operation at minimum level and the precautionary landing simply for those to be ignored when the only alternative is unqualified flight in IMC.

Whilst I totally agree with this people do end up in inadvertent IMC and if, in spite of all the instruction not to do so this happens, then they should feel they can get the best assistance without being overly concerned about the legal implications.:bored:

[SKYYACHT]

As ChilliMonster has said, you can not fly VFR On Top, But you can be VMC on top, and fly out of sight of the surface with the privilieges of the IMC rating.

:cool:

[homeguard]

Of course you can fly VFR on top even when out of sight of the surface, unless your particular licence held precludes so such as the UK issued PPL! Even the UK issued PPL holder may may fly VFR on top should they be able, at all times, to maintain some sight of the surface.
You may fly VFR at all times that it is VMC (within Class A airspace - SVFR) and when in addition the VFR vertical and horizontal distances, that are prescribed, are maintained from cloud.

[flybymike]

Class A SVFR clearances apply to CTR's only, not CTA's and airways