Life in Monarch Air 2000 Airtours JMC

[Set_max_Thrust]

I currently work as a captain for a regional jet operator. But would like to know what the inside story is in regard to quality of life in the above mentioned companies.
Salary info I can get from BALPA but what life is like in regard to :-

1. Hours flown per month
2, Days worked per month
3, How much night flying
4, Standby periods and callout periods
5, How many days away from home ...
6, What bases are available

Generally quality of life issues more important than jumping ship to earn a few thousand more or less.....

Anyone out there from Monarch,Air2000,JMC,Airtours out there tell is what the lifestyle is really like ...

Cheers ....

[Mr Benn]

Well I can give you an idea of Air 2000. Generally its not as bad as people think. They still have this outdated view of the holiday airlines. In reality we doa mixture of scheduled and charter flights and in winter ad hocs as well, which adds to the interest.
For specifics I can give you an idea based on you joining as an FO on the short haul fleet.
1. In summer, between 60-90 hours a month. Usually around 70-80 hours. In winter about 15-30 hours a month unless you are off on contract somewhere.
2. Days worked - we normally get a minimum of 8 days off a month, average of 9 maybe 10. There is a contractual minimum of 104 days off per year (not including leave, etc.)
3. On average 3 to 4 nights per month in summer, one or two over the season in winter. It will vary depending on that year's program and also your base.
4. Standbys are 8 hours. The company will sometimes try and get you to do a flight after the end of your standby. We do have a scheduling agreement to cover such matters. Callout is a standard hour and a half. There are also rules about how far away you can live (based on mileage, but basically same as callout). Don't get called out that often though. I get called out maybe 5 times a year or less.
5. Again depends on base and fleet. Talking standard short haul, in summer, one month you might not be away at all, other times you might get 5-10 days away (usually stopping in UK). I probably average one nightstop a month of up to 3 days.
6. We have bases all over the UK, from Bristol to Manchester to Glasgow to London.

Pay isn't that bad. Compared to BA you'd probably do better over 10 years to be with Air 2000. Time to command is very good, starting salary around £38k plus allowances. Other benefits too.

If you go on the B757/767 fleet you do a mixture of long and short haul. In winter the 757s do VIP round-the-world trips too. There are also a few ad hoc contracts, based abroad, for anything from one month upwards.

[Set_max_Thrust]

Mr Benn thanks for the information very interesting and useful. One final question do you see yourself at Air2 in long term or do you still feel the urge to move on. Is it a career company or is it a stepping stone company ?

[knows]

Just a note to correct the observation about pay. There are lots of things to consider , pension, overtime, allowances, etc . Needless to say....over as little as six years,, you are far better off as a DEP in BA than in the LHS of a UK charter carrier.
Clearly this means that there is absolutely no comparison for F-O scales.

[SAM 2M]

In response to the question as to whether Air 2000 etcare career Companies I can definately say yes. The carriers you mention such as Airtours JMC Monarch are all -in my book- 'League Division 1. As a 40 year old Captain on the B757 I am very content. Most people seem to join with about 2000-4000+ hours so are generally in the Mid 30s bracket. As I joined at 36 and with a Command at 40 it would make no sense to look elsewhere. Further more the flying is interesting with lots of varied routes and approaches/ destinations + ETOPS flying also available. In addition as mentioned above we have such things as a schduling agreement which includes (ideally) no start before 9am after a day off. The package also includes Private Health, PHI and the Comapny put 15% of gross salary into the pension (The Pilot puts in a further 5)This is only a personal observation but expect that it applies to most. :)

[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: SAM 2M ]

[Frederic]

I'm applying to several UK charters for the moment. Anybody have any contacts?

[Mr Benn]

Answers to a couple of questions.
Is it a career? Well, seems to depend on who you know and what squadron you were in! Only joking....
Time to command is very good, the company is expanding and basically people are on the short list for less than a year.
There are also plenty of line training and sim trainer jobs available as well as other things like tech instructors.
Most pilots who get into management seem to go upwards quite well and quite quickly, if that is what you want.

As for comparison with BA, well, over six years, if you were with Air 2000 you would spend a year, maybe two, in the RHS on £38,000 a year basic (increments each year) plus allowances, etc. then move into the LHS where you'd start on around £60k basic. The Captains salary rises to around £81k plus there are % add ons for training people.

I believe that DEPs at BA now start on a salary much lower than ours, but that information may be wrong. Times that by six years (you won't get a command at BA in that time) and then compare what you have earnt.

Of course, in time, I guess you'll overtake your Captains salary at Air 2000 if you were at BA.

Depends what you want.

First Officers and Captains have left to go to other companies, including GO and BA as well as others.

But people will always apply to BA thinking the grass is always greener. From the feedback I get I have to say I am not totally convinced. Really it comes down to, do you want to work for a huge company where you don't know anyone and you are just a number of do you want a more personal touch, flying with people you know, etc.?

[Bounce]

Knows, are you having a laugh?

[Set_max_Thrust]

SAM 2m and Mr benn good information and good to see people happy in their work. Money is important but also quality of life as most guys in mid 30's have families/wives/girlfriends ( but hopefully not all of the previous gets far too expensive). What are basings available, standby periods, bidding for leave, are u able to get Xmas off and at least wife birthday and anniversary.

Money is important but you can never buy a good roster the chance of xmas off and some weekends now and then coupled with a nice base and good standby period.
I believe as companies start to employ the mid 30's more mature guy these issues start to become more important. Interested on what you guys have to say on the non cash benefits..

[knows]

Dear Mr Benn , Bounce;
I had a command on a 757 and worked with a fantastic bunch of pilots at my old charter employer. The training was superb and I loved every minute of it! The routes were interesting and I was proud of the company.

BUT don't forget that when working for a charter Co you get worked flat out each Summer, you will miss every Wedding/BBQ etc etc. Rostering will use CAP 371 as a target and you may fly 100hrs (including knackering Night LPA,TFS,DLM) + in a calendar month.
My employer paid me nothing for working on a day off - and they always expected me to go up to 3 hours into discretion.The staff travel was very poor indeed. ( Since joining BA I have flown Club class longhaul many times!)

By posting this I'm not knocking the very experience that I benefitted from; (charter - Air 2K JMC, Monarch et all) I'm simply trying to put the other side of the argument!
Believe me ... with overtime ( perhaps 1 day a month), the pension (it is worth as great deal to me to be able to retire at 55), roster stability + fairness etc I find I'm far far better off at BA.

PS Friends of mine achieved EOG and BHX commands within 4 years! I know it will be longer in the future - but it's worth waiting for.

If you are <38 don't beleive every thing you read on PPRUNE... find someone who works for BA (preferably a recent DEP)and ask them!
Don't disregard it.

[B clam]

What is right for one individual is not necessarily right for another. I joined BA from one of the leading charter outfits mentioned here and have no regrets.
I am one of those early 30s chaps with wife and kids and so quality of life is right up there on the priority list. Having control over my life is more important than an early command.
It would be boring if everyone wanted the same!

[earnesteric]

I beg to differ with "knows"

I've got friends in that outfit that have had to take second jobs to make ends meet. In the outfit I work for command can come in 2 - 3 yrs, captains' package around 70-80k with pay, allowances and free shares plus a cracking pension. We have plenty of cammanders in their early 30s with scope for advancement into training and management positions. Compare that the 39 year old popping out to job no 2 after his days away on his B777!

[Bounce]

I've been in one of the above mentioned charter companies for over ten years and i have to say that my winters have consisted of about one flight a month and the summers generally around the seventy hour per month mark.Total hours a year less than 500 which from previous threads i dont think can be matched in BA.This may not be the norm. in charter but it is in my experience.
Command after 5 years,better pension than BA,BUPA and loss of licence insurance.Salaries also very good.Flown 4 types in this company with some very interesting routes.Interesting people that you actually get to know.
Staff travels pretty crapp but otherwise i,d recommend it. :)

[Mr Benn]

I have found the roster stability to be generally pretty good. Home most nights. Rarely get roster changes unless some major problems, like Spaniards on strike or 3 aircraft tech in one day, but that rarely happens!
Average 500-600 hours per year flying. If you do more than 800 hours a year they pay extortionate overtime rates so will generally choose to stop you flying rather than pay. So you can pretty much guarantee you won't do more than 800 hours a year. Sectors are generally 2-5 hours on short haul, usually fly an out and back.
I understand your concerns, and although there will be events you miss, there are ways round it, certainly in Air 2000.
There are basings all over the country, where are you looking for? Generally they are pretty good at getting you into the base you want and keeping you there.
Standbys are, as previously mentioned, 8 hours long with a one and a half hour call out. Depends on base, but generally called out maybe up to 5 times per year. All standbys are home standbys, and as long as you are contactable (eg. mobile phone) and are within an hour and a half of the airport you're OK.
We have a system whereby you get 12 Requested Days Off (RDOs) per season. That is 12 in summer, 12 in winter. If you want a weekend day you have to use 2 RDOs, ie. you cannot only book at Saturday you have to book the Sat and Sun. There is a limit of 3 RDOs per month and a limit on weekends, I think its 6 weekend days per season. But you get rostered days off at weekends sometimes too. You also get Personal Days (PDOs) which can be wife's birthday and anniversary and they will try and keep them free for you, but for a guarantee you are better using the RDOs.
As for leave, there is a rotating seniority system. So you take it in turns to get first pick. You cannot bid for the same weeks two years in a row. You can bid for either Xmas or New Year leave and you only work one or the other. You can also volunteer to work one or the other thereby getting the other one off. Once you know people in the company you can sometimes arrange swaps too.

[Set_max_Thrust]

Mr Benn first of all good to see someone being really positive about their company.
I am looking at bases in southern half of UK e.g gatwick etc ...

So on an average flying month how many days are committed to work, given i suppose you could end up doing 2 sectors that total 6-7 hours. But seems everybody is very positive about air2000 seems like a great outfit.

[9g]

knows

'Needless to say....over as little as six years,, you are far better off as a DEP in BA than in the LHS of a UK charter carrier'

However you look at it, you are incorrect. The only way to get good cash with BA is longhaul, and the only way to get a longhaul command is to spend (optimistic) 5+ years in the RHS. Game, set and match...

[beamer]

Dear Bounce

If you are in the UK charter market and flying one trip a month in the winter season
I would be more than a little concerned that
your company is not making any money - my
'quiet season ' averages 30-40 hours per
month notwithstanding the fact that I have
to take the majority of my leave in the winter not to mention SEP, Tech courses etc.
Anybody else underworked in the quiet half
of the year ?

[Mr Benn]

Air 2000 are OK, like most companies it has its weaknesses. Its best if you are out of the main bases, that is LGW and MAN if you want to avoid politics etc.
Bases would be LGW, STN, BHX and we are currently also doing W patterns through LUT, don't know if it'll ever be a base though.
Air 2000 is I believe the biggest charter company at LGW, I don't think you'd have a problem getting based there.
Average days off per month I would say is 9.
Unfortunately, even when they don't need you, they would rather put you on standby (even when there are no flights from your base that day/time) than give you a day off.
In fact they often roster a number of you on the same standby "just in case".
They are days at home, but not free from duty as there is the theoretical possibility of being called out. In summer, probably around 3-4 standbys per month, in winter depends on your base and fleet. If you are on the Boeing there are lots of winter contracts and so its a different kettle of fish, if you are on the Airbus nothing happens in winter so you'll have most of the week at home.
There is a very strong military feel/ attitude within the company, that is its main minus point. If you ever read the article about Korean Air a couple of years back, who used exclusively ex-military pilots until they realised what a mistake it was, then you'll know what I am talking about. It is starting to filter down a bit now, with pilots being taken on from a range of backgrounds/ hours, which is great.

Other than that, the usual one sidedness and lack of management negotiation when it comes to anything that might benefit the pilot (and possibly reduce the director's bonuses).

I reckon its no better or worse than most other airlines of its size.

[FlyboyUK]

So any info on the other charter companies apart from air 2000?

[GROUNDSTAR]

Spent a few years on turboprops averaging 720 hours a year. Joined Monarch nearly four years ago and haven't managed to exceed 600 hours a year yet, for roughly two and a half times the old salary. The maximum number of hours I have ever accrued, in 28 days, at MON is 73 in August 2000. If the lifestyle was anything like that suggested on some of the postings I think I would have left several years ago.

[had_enough]

Do any of the aforementioned Companies have a Glasgow base ?

Thanks in advance :confused:

[beamer]

Groundstar

73 hours a month ! LUXURY

I think you will find that Airtours/A2K/ and
Britannia will work their crews rather harder
than that !!!!!!

[Mr Benn]

had-enough, Air 2000 have a base at Glasgow.
Beamer, can't speak for the other companies but with Air 2000 I have only once done more than 73 hours in a month (in summer). And in winter its much, much less.

[Set_max_Thrust]

Mr benn .. what aircraft do air2 operate out of BHX?
and any Monarch driver what bases are Monarch operating from is it still just Luton and Manch ...

cheers

[beamer]

Mr Benn - I'm staggered at your quiet life -
you must know somebody in rostering !!


Set Max Thrust - At last count A2K have two
757's at Brum in the summer and one in the
winter - crews well up to establishment at
the moment. Occasional 767 work but most of
the goodies go to LGW and MAN crews. There
are some nomadic 320/321 chaps around but by
all accounts they just use the place as a
maildrop awaiting their long rumoured aircraft at East Midlands - they all seem
to have adopted Irish accents recently !

[Mr Benn]

Nope beamer, probably just on the right fleet. If I was working more than this I would find it hard to think of a reason to stay with the company.

[Nine Forks]

Mr Benn

Slightly off topic this, but am sure you can help.

How do the new cadets fare that are part sponsored in Air2000?

I had a go last year and got to quite a late stage before being chucked out, although didn't have a PPL then.

This year I do, and would like to try again.

[beamer]

Mr Benn

You are probably right - Airbus pilots do
seem to have an easier life - mind the DFO
and CP do fly the thing so perhaps that fact
is related. Guess I won't see you on the
beach over the winter !

[Mr Benn]

Nine Forks, don't know much about the cadet scheme, but if I was you I would apply again, if you get in I believe you go and fly turbo props for 2 years with another company then come to us but I might be wrong.

[FL390]

Well, thank you very much everyone for this very useful info about Air 2000. I am currently a young wannabe that has just taken his GCSEs. I have eventually come round to the fact that there are other airlines other than BA ( :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) and have been attempting to get info about airlines, such as A2K, JMC, Monarch etc etc without much luck. I fortunately found this thread and it has been most enlightening!

SO, thank you very much! :) :)

**Hmmm, first edit didn't work.... :confused:

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: FL390 ]

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: FL390 ]

[Set_max_Thrust]

well now Air2000 is on the lost of extremely desiribles anyone from Monarch,JMC wish to add anything .....

[t-bag]

Normally short at LGW so if that is what you want you would probably get it. all recruitment at the mo is on the bus. Good luck!

[ia1166]

I'd have to agree with knows. you have to look at the whole package. moving into the left seat is nice but i'd rather spend a few more years in the rhs at BA than in the LHS of any charter outfit. I'd also like to know which charter airline offers a better pension than BA. Check out the number of roster requests you have. I can ask for 4 days plus a non ops day per 4 week roster. put a request in at the end and start of a roster and you have 10 days off every 7 weeks. couple it with first class id90's on almost every major airline for you and the family and heavily discounted hotels and you have a very nice life indeed. i've been all over the world this year and I have yet another 3 weeks off in November. I've worked for a couple of charter outfits in the UK and had a great time although over summer i was always tired and could never seem to get to BBQ's, sports events etc cause they always happened at weekends. My advice is if you want to live in the UK join BA. everyone else tried to get in but won't admit they failed. ( I'm going to sit under the table now to avoid the incoming )

[In the slot]

Hmmmm. Recently read threads about how half the cabin crew in the 747 at BA were earning more than the FO! Maybe it would be better to leave AIR 2K/MON/JMC to put on an apron for birdseed!

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

I simply cannot believe the contents of the last three postings. Waken up! The music, as far as changing jobs is concerned, stopped on the 11th. of September. It might interest you to know that there are some pilots, recently departed from Monarch, who have now found that the seats they were heading for have been hurriedly whipped away. Course cancelled. NO JOB. No job back at Monarch either. Yes at least one of them asked and he was heading for BA A320s. Gettit? It is therefore tragic to read of people speculating about bases/types/time to command and deluding themselves.

[Wet Power]

Totally agree George - the last few posts on this subject are on a different planet in the light of recent events.

There is carnage going on out there as a result of, in particular, the BA fallout. I know of several people who have put their notice in to go to BA and are now being told they cannot have their original job back. I also have heard rumours of people who have just joined BA, having paid off outstanding bonds, who are being told they are being laid off into a marketplace full of well qualified pilots.

Not nice.

[Ella]

Thing to remember about Monarch is that the owners have been trying to sell it along with Cosmos for the last few months. No one wanted cosmos because it has been losing money for a long time, does not carry that many pax, and the owners stipulated that all Cosmos seats were to be given to Monarch for a minimum of five years.

Every holiday company replied that they would buy Cosmos, but let Monarch got to the wall as they all had their own airlines they could absorb Cosmos's lowly numbers within their own.

Right now, I would not wish to be working for Monarch.

[Bounce]

ella, your bitterness is astounding.Failed interview perhaps?

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Ella, we could argue, to no avail, over the veracity of your posting about Monarch.
The message is, whoever you're with, strap in tight, it's going to get very bumpy, it's going to get worse before it gets better and I'm sorry to say, some people might not make it out the other side.

[qwertyuiop]

Ella,

Strange post that one. You may be right, you may be wrong, but I think most guys and gals in Monarch are happy to be where they are at the moment.

Havent seen your name on the spotty M forum so I guess your having a wild jealous outburst.

[Capt.Slackbladder]

Ella

Get your facts right before you post.
Monarch have made a profit for virtually every year they have been going and own most of their a/c outright (which is more than can be said for many other companies)
It was Cosmos up for sale and not the Airline, but if the price is right any company is up for sale. Airtours, JMC, Air 2000, Ryanair could all be sold tomorrow as could Monarch.

[Wet Power]

And for $64 000 please name three airlines that are recruiting pilots at the moment?

Monarch is one of them - they were interviewing in the last couple of weeks!

[Ella]

I have nothing whatsoever against Monarch, Cosmos or anyone employed by them.

My posting reflects only the information published widely in the business sections of several reputable newspapers a month or so back.

I am glad those in Monarch are happy and wish the airline every success. However compared to the other charter airlines in the UK I would have thought that as a large amount of their work is from companies that will now be bringing their work in house they would be feeling exposed.

I will be as pleased as anyone to find I'm wrong.

[GROUNDSTAR]

Ella,

I very much doubt that you have the slightest idea who Monarch is even owned by! It may also interest you to know that the majority of our fleet are owned by the company so the asset value of the company is quite phenomenal when compaired to many other airlines. This puts the company in a slightly better position to weather the forthcoming storm, because it doesn't have to incur as many leasing costs for aircraft that may end up being parked on the ground due to lack of business next year.

[ia1166]

Actually dragon air are interviewing this week as are bmed i think. jobs are out there for if you have the right quals and decent hours.

[Podge]

You're right Ella, Tour Ops ARE moving most cap back to in house, which can only mean the wall for the likes of HH and those piddly little airlines who rely on charter bad luck and the need to sub - MON however I am sure will survive. Their headcount has always been lean and as they are by far one of the best charters, I suspect that Tour Ops would turn to them as first choice for any 3rd party flying. :p

[dan296]

Hi everyone, im only 16 and i really really want to become an airline pilot. Im studying a-levels at my 6th form in maths,physics, geography and computing.Soon, i am going to start the ppl course at coventry and after school i am going to apply for air atlantique. Im hesitant about doing this as i dont know wheather a university degree would help or the airlines would consider you to be too young?
Does a ppl help?
I know that sponsorship schemes are very competitive, but what are they really looking 4?
If i dont get sponsorship, whats the next best way in?
lol-some of you are complaing about the hours you are working!!You are so lucky getting paid to fly 752's and 762-300's!!ill take your place!lol
thanks