Hong Kong Airlines - more resignations?

[Eff_Ohh_Ron_Jeremy]

Well... i hear another HKA F/O is off... and a couple more to follow (???)


Sure, a number of F/O’s recently tried to jump ship to Oasis... only to find themselves dog-paddling back to HKA (sadly), for reasons already discussed in previous threads. Perhaps this gave the Upper Management at HKA the false impression that they had them by the ‘short and curly’s’. Little do they realise the resilience and determination of the modern, western-minded airline pilot (generally speaking of course) to improve their working conditions/career prospects.


Perhaps the mass exodus, as previously alluded to in previous posts, isn’t imminent... but from several accounts, certainly the slow trickle of attrition is definitely present. Will HKA become a ‘training school’ for low-jet time pilots, as previously suggested?


Why oh why does the upper management of HKA fail to realise that they are not dealing with local pilots on the mainland? (Before there are howls and cries of “racism”, i think 4 years in Asia allow me to refer to the cultural differences in mindset. No disrespect intended to my Chinese brethren.)

Why can’t HKA upper management accept proven business ideology of modern (western) times that state employee satisfaction will lead to greater success and overall prosperity... albeit with lower profit margins in the interim?


The company has several highly experienced middle managers (not known personally... but by reputation and word of mouth – the two i know of anyway) who apparently would be very capable of really taking the company forward... in a way that would result in happier employees across the board... more growth and development... and quite possibly a far more successful airline than anyone can conceive right now... but their hands are tied by upper management.


I presume upper management are highly experienced in their own regard (some, all or most from a major mainland Chinese carrier)... but how are they in dealing with westerners... and tackling a western market? Surely a shared understanding of various cultures is vital in this business? Practices and policies that make for a highly successful airline in mainland China may not successfully apply in a more western market (something to consider with the talk of long-haul operations... and more specifically with a high proportion of western flight crew).


Certainly airlines, like most commercial enterprises, are driven by the all mighty dollar. That, I suppose, is the world we live in... but at the risk of sounding too ‘Jerry Maguire’, wouldn’t it behove employers and employees alike if a fairer, more empathetic (on both sides) and less egotistical attitude was utilised.


Most astoundingly... why can’t HKA upper management, who culturally (apparently) are so concerned with image, perception and the idea of ‘saving face’, see that their current attitude only serves to embarrass them and the company... which has developed a poor reputation (managerially speaking) even half-way around the globe? Do they not care how the ‘western eye’ perceives them?


If they don’t care... fair enough... but considering: the company needing experienced ‘foreign’ pilots (and having difficulty acquiring them)... looking at tackling a western market (eventually)... and China's desire to be an intimate part of global trade and development... isn’t this counterproductive? Does it not embarrass them to be seen as archaic and ‘old world order’? Strong-arm tactics are so passé.


Does upper management at HKA realise what’s actually happening beyond their golden walls? The aviation community at large tend to raise eyebrows and speak in sympathetic tones about a company that many of us don’t see developing very far in the long-term... and certainly not becoming a major player in global/Asian aviation circles. Does HKA management not see this? Are they not concerned at the general perception of the company?


Certainly (to paraphrase Lincoln), “you can’t ‘please’ all of the people all of the time”... but surely a fairer, two-way attitude would go a long way. (Try) to look after your crew... and they’ll look after you. True loyalty is earned, not enforced or demanded (ahem... a concept even employers in this part of the world would do well to note).


Undoubtedly, HKA is not the only airline to have its battles between management and pilots. One need only glance at the greater proportion of posts from disgruntled/disappointed/ (and let’s face it folks... in some cases...) whingeing CX, EK, JQ and QF pilots (to name a few)... but does that make it alright?


C’mon HKA upper management. Grow a pair... and try a different tact... spend some money... and let your middle management do what they were hired to do. You may be pleasantly surprised.


You may just find you’ll stop being considered a small-minded, short-sighted, slightly comical operator in HK aviation. Don’t know what i mean? Just read a few posts re: 51 airbuses, command upgrades, housing (you-got-to-be-kidding) allowances, overnight allowances, lack of medical, lack of income protection, long-haul ops, B787’s ...etc...etc...etc... need i go on?

Those of us outside HK who have actually heard of you (thanks to ex-colleagues and friends), do wish you well...sincerely... but aren't holding much hope.


My viewpoint is based on second-hand information, albeit from trustworthy sources... and of course, good ol’ pprune... so please forgive any errors or misconceptions. Ultimately, i don’t really care what the final outcome is. I have my own frustrations and battles to worry about. Just a few pennies really... but what the hell do i know?

Good luck (to all concerned).

[dirka]

Good post. So true....... :ugh:

[Sqwak7700]

Why can’t HKA upper management accept proven business ideology of modern (western) times that state employee satisfaction will lead to greater success and overall prosperity... albeit with lower profit margins in the interim?

I can assure you that western companies, at least airlines, don't believe in employee satisfaction. I've worked for 2 american companies and I can assure you they are just as rotten as non-american airlines.

Corporate greed is all arround, in different degrees, but it is all the same ****t. You are gonna need to put up with it no matter where you go. It is a conflict of interest for managers to act any other way, just as it is for us. It is a constant tug of war in which one side wins only temporarily, but only takes a little time to return to the middle. The middle is determined by the state of the economy and the general mindset.

Sadly, we are our worst enemy, which I'm sure you already knew. You and I might say piss-off to a company that pays ****t and is especially greedy, but trust me, there is always someone standing right behind us saying "I'll take it". They might be coming from a CFI job or towing banners and to them it is a step up.

One man's garbage is another man's treasure. Sad but true. :( That is why it is more effective to be united in enforcing contract compliance when your management lot gets particularly greedy. It is definetely more effective than voting with your feet, which actually saves the company money. :D

[Night Watch]

Hong Kong Airlines finalized its order for 30 A320 family aircraft, 20 A330s and one ACJ initially announced at the Paris Air Show. Engine choice has not been finalized, Airbus said.

Who is going to fly them?????

[cpahka]

Hong Kong Airlines seals Airbus deal at Asian Aerospace
12 September 2007Hong Kong Airlines has signed a firm contract with Airbus for 30 A320 Family aircraft, 20 A330s and one ACJ, herewith firming up an initial commitment announced at Le Bourget Airshow in Paris in June. Engine choices have yet to be finalised.


does it meant Boeing abandoned by HKA?

[mairyhinge]

I heard a wee rumour that KA is going to offer low jet time pilots (1200 hrs) jobs as locals ie No housing etc....

[knackeredII]

They're having trouble getting/keeping people on current conditions! You think offering less will work better?

And there's a little matter of the current COS (agreed Conditions of Service) which might be a stumbling block to that.

[Shot Nancy]

Now I heard that CX couldn't get pilots for their Oz freighter bases a while back. So what did they do? They lowered the salary to attract a less qualified applicant!
You cant argue against it if it isn't logic.
KA is having problems attracting and retaining pilots, so what do they do?
Lower the salary for the same job.

[hongkongfooey]

I think you'll find the Airbus order is Hainans, HKA could get 50, 5, or none of them, and yeh, who the fcuk is going to fly them :confused:
The pilot shortage is only going to get worse, not better :ugh:

Wonder how many Aussie/kiwi Gwailos ( sorry about spelling ) will hang around when they work out they are getting less than a Virgin Blu driver, yes thats including the :mad: Oz tax, and considering the hsng allowance wont cover a 1 bedder in Tung Chung, why would you stay? :{

[Numero Crunchero]

Not strickly correct.
In the withdrawn 'offer' there was no pay rise for Aussie based freighter pilots in the first year cause it would have put their salaries above the new UFO scale.

So it wasn't a pay cut - they were just offering freighter salary for flying pax aircraft - about $92K a year.

phooey
what I find interesting was that when i joined it was a payrise (300%) to join CX from my air force job. Now whether you join as an SO in hkg or a DEFO on the proposed UFO payscales you are taking a paycut in salary from 10% -30%. Additionally, an ex RAAF pilot joining as a DEFO/UFO loses some housing assistance and a superior provident fund.

How times have changed!

[hongkongfooey]

Not so much interesting as bluddy ridiculous, Crunchero.
Surely with the way things are going in world aviation, these tight:mad: can't get away with it for too much longer :confused:

[hongkongfooey]

HK Airlines : Rapid command from low time. Great for Jet hour building and moving on, or getting that jet command

At least thats what they're tellin' everyone Verm.
Do the figures and I dont think it will be that " rapid ", they don't even have upgrade approval yet, 2 A/C delayed 'til next year, large backlog of existing effo's promised commands, 6 months just to CTL, etc etc.
I think Rapid might be 3-4 years ( MAYBE 2 1/2 if real lucky ), depending on growth which is a big " If " not necessarily when.:rolleyes:

Of course, once you attain the lofty heights of HKA skipper, you can enjoy a package ( depending on if you have kids or not, and where you chose to live ) somewhere between 7 and 37K a month LESS than a Dragon F/O :{

[Yippi Kai Ah]

the Shenzhen refueler told me's HKA have sacked there CAD inspector, apparnetly he just about drove one of there new 737-800 in to the big hill on take off few months ago......big cover up :=

[Blown Seal]

Well that's the best rumour I've heard...today.
He has actually been promoted.

[NoseGear]

Promoted eh? Must be true then!! Well done EC:ok::E

Nosey

[Peak Tram Driver]

Yep its a sinking ship alright.........and too much hot air from manangement. the best chance they had was getting Zeb and hickory stick back, and even they changed there minds.... . fifty airbuses my ass.They couldn't even operate a ferry to tsuen wan on schedule. According to the tranvestite by the wan chai kebab stall, the goings on between HK airlines and CAD are political! can u believe that....politics at CLK! I am off to fenicks to for quiet beer and improve my colombian.

[hongkongfooey]

Gotta admit, the new paint job looks nice.

Heard a rumour the Airbus order was firmed up, but lets not get too excited, we all know that 1 or 51 of those 'buses could end up at Hainan.

Does'nt matter where they end up, if things don't get better around here, there will be no bugger around to fly them :ok:

[boocs]

"According to the tranvestite by the wan chai kebab stall, " ????:confused:

I just thought she was a cute tall girl with a husky voice and firm hand shake.... Then again, that Adams Apple did look a bit Manish.....

b.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Two more walking in tomorrow to resign.....(off to VB apparantly). This is starting to get interesting.

[diablo_caliente]

Hmmm!! Off to VB are they? Thats a good move!

[hongkongfooey]

A very good move :ok:
Better pay and conditions, get to live at home ( if u an aussie ) and they have a, shock horror...................................... upgrade programme.
Just like a real airline :uhoh:

[diablo_caliente]

If going home is what you want, then, it is great!! As for the "shock horror" up-grade programme. Well, If that's your idea of a "real airline" Then you are either very naive or very old fashioned! Good luck with the shock horror up-grade, hope you learn heaps, become a better pilot and benefit from their wisdom!

[beerboy]

Each to their own, and I've never been down to OZ diablo, and maybe you've come from down under, with the relevant experience to be able to write off VB as being competent, however facts are facts..
VB do indeed have an upgrade program and that means guys will be flying in the left hand seat at some point. You will be back home or close to it. You will also won't have the pollution to deal with. Other terms and conditions are unknown but these things in itself are pretty big selling points, guys will be willing to take it if it means a quicker command with the added bonus of being at home.
At HKA, there is no upgrade program and that is a fact, you are away from home and you do have to put up with the pollution.
Seems that you're being a bit harsh on Mr Fooey, as getting into the left hand seat as well as enjoying your flying (and lifestyle) is pretty much what most pilots want, no?.. and yes, I have no idea what lifestyle you're likely to get, or if VB have lied to guys, but I'm sure anyone willing to join them aren't going in there without some idea of whats it all about OR they do know, AND its still a better option than being here.

[El Kabong]

Good grief Diablo :mad:, you miss the point entirely. A clear and concise command path and upgrade programme is a fundamental basis for career progression. There is no such thing as marking time in this game. If you are not or "cannot" (theres that phrase again) work towards your career advancement, the rest of the world is passing you by. If you are happy to be a career FO, then good luck to you. However most of us are keen to get moving and while the powers that be "dick around" they are preventing us from advancing our careers.

Lets face it, 6 months to line, no command upgrade programme, delayed aircraft delivery, cr@p pay and conditions, this is not a place to advance your career as things stand right now. Maybe things will change, maybe they wont, no wonder people are looking elsewhere. But hey, keep deluding yourself that such things don't matter if it makes you feel better :ugh::yuk:

[diablo_caliente]

BB
Wasn't being harsh with Fooy.

Still trying to get your point from the last post! However, your description of VB is all speculation. Hardly factual! They're all tared with the same brush, HKA VB and the rest of them. But you're correct about the clean air.

[diablo_caliente]

el kab
Whats with the agro? Did I touch a raw nerve? I'm not trying to support HKA or others of similar ilk.

I just passed a comment regarding someone's idea of an up-grade programme. Please, don't shoot from the hip, a good Captain wouldn't do that. Let that be your first lesson towards the up-grade!

[AAIGUY]

So who Resigned then?

I have been flying all day (Ningbo now) and haven't heard.....Initials please

[pilotinasia]

good suggestion AAIGUY, initials anyone ?

[El Kabong]

Gee Diablo, thanks so much for those profound pearls of wisdom. I now feel so much more equiped to handle the chance of an upgrade when ever the opportunity may come my way.

The "agro" is with the attitude that the lack of an upgrade programme doesnt seem to matter. Maybe it doesnt to you, but there are quite a few fellows to whom this particular issue matters a great deal.

[AAIGUY]

mmm..soo.. Was at the office today...no one has resigned.

[Allou dri]

heard that over numbers RHS guys n gals, LHS pal work harder, only to blame the upgrade program no go?!

[AAIGUY]

Yeah ..fat on FO's but upgrades seem to coming to fruition.. (I know..I am laughing that I even wrote it, but hey..you gotta believe in something... and I think I ate the easter bunny @ a Dim Sum restraunt yesterday.)
My pick is not JP at all.

[diablo_caliente]

el kab
There you go again! Shooting from the hip! Please, milky bar kid. Put your pop gun back in its holster and cool your heels.

I've never indicated that up-grade program's don't matter. Those are your words. I was refering to the quality of some up-grade program's. Any reasonable individual recognises the need for such things.

I can understand your right seat frustration, but your allowing this to cloud your judgment. Your posts are proof of this. Is it any wonder you don't have that precious command? Remember its a privilege not a right.

Maybe some anger management is in order.

[El Kabong]

Whatever Diablo, whatever :ok:

[hongkongfooey]

Not sure you understand me, or my sarcasm Diablo.
I was referring to VB, and the airlines I have worked for ( not to mention the 1000s I have'nt worked for, that have an upgrade programme ) having an upgrade programme for their FOs, unlike HKA at the moment.

If you mis-understood my comments, then fine.

If not, you are an uninformed moron who deserves all the vitriole El Kabonger can dish out. Who the hell are you to question VBs training ability.

I could'nt give a rats either way, I am a left seater, have been for over a decade. Just feel bad for the FOs, most of whom deserve a go.

[diablo_caliente]

Fooey
Most of your 29 posts are aggressive and immature. If its true you've had the left seat for >10yrs, you should be ashamed of yourself. You've learnt nothing in your time as a leader! I hope for your crew and pax you don't lose your cool in the cockpit like you frequently do here in prune. The only programme you need, is what I recommended to el kab!

[El Kabong]

Hey Diablo, ever heard of a saying that "EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE" because sunshine you make plenty!! :ok:

[Fella]

A little lady in Wanchai told me you HKA boys are up for 2 more HKD a month? True or just a nasty rumour to twist the knife a bit more?:cool:

[AAIGUY]

The shoe shiner on Pender behind Central MTR said the same yesterday. Could be brighter days ahead.

[El Kabong]

If you think that wanting to improve employment conditions is "screaming for help" then you really are a monkey willing to put his hand out for peanuts while the organ grinder cranks your tail. But hey, its probably the only gig you could get. And besides, if I was looking for help it wouldn't be from the likes of you. I should imagine that your advice would be pretty much like contracting a dose of venereal disease!! Feels good at the time but the long term ramifications are pretty ugly.

[pilotinasia]

maybe alot of guys wants, intending, trying, saying, thinking or show the company how frustrated they are.

but still no one has resigned yet according to posts here :ugh:

my guess is awaiting for a better package ? or a chance to jump to LHS ? just a guess :)

[pilotinasia]

looks like things are heating up here but in real life, i guess diablo_caliente could be right besides the weak part of p!lots.

[diablo_caliente]

el kab & fooey
See you both at the EK roadshow. I'll be the one in the little red suit..

[hongkongfooey]

i guess diablo_caliente could be right besides the weak part of p!lots.

Thats about the ONLY thing he is right about :hmm:

Dabbo, dont look too hard for me at the EeK roadshow, I cant stand sand up my :mad: :}

[El Kabong]

Hey Diablo, happy to oblige with the laughter. Yes I will be at the EK roadshow, for the money I'll take the sand up the :mad::eek: I'll be the rather belligerent looking one with a permanent scowl!!!!

If I see a fellow in a red suit I will wave hello, might even buy you a beer (cheapest one cause I'm broke) and we can continue our little "waltz" around the subject matter. :ok:

[Dragon Spice]

Going back to the resignations with the guys thats were heading for Oasis....rumours were rife at that time that the housing allowance would go up to HK$20,000. When the 3 f/o's were turned down and had to go back to HKA with their tails between there legs HKA put aside the plans for the housing aloowance increase.
What do u guys think about these guys resigning and then coming back and retaining their seniority numbers? Before they left they wernt happy and were bagging the company...do you think they would stop doing the same....ie nothing has changed in the company.

[beerboy]

Not sure about the details, but the three chaps had all intentions to go over, and it was only due to HKA and Oasis coming to some sort of no poaching agreement which stuffed them up. They hadn't resigned, they weren't allowed to!! Its ironic, the big man sent an email out once to say vote with your feet if you're not happy..and the guys couldn't even do that!! LOL
This means that the guys are still looking to leave anyway, once an opportunity comes around and in any case the seniority number doesn't mean much to the chaps as 1) no command course 2) not enough of the required hours to be up for the command course.
I know that one of the guys who tried to resign, has left the company. The other two will also leave when they have got another opportunity, this time making sure that they can actually leave!

[Dragon Spice]

The latest one I heard today is that a few of the boys from Eagle in HKA have interviews with PB, JC and ANZ. One if them has had an interview with CX. I suppose even though PB and JC dont pay as much its still better to be home.
I have a feeling that it'll be a case of Deja Vu for the management at HKA when these guys leave. I am aware that they a overstocked with F/O's but if there is a trend of guys joining then leaving after 6-12 months then others will see HKA as a stepping stone to the major carriers.
The pilot management pretty much have their hands tied with the issue with salary and housing allowance increase. If HKA want to be serious competitors in HK (:rolleyes:) then the mainland management need to adopt a 'western' attitude towards ther welfare of their pilots and staff.
They'll need to pull up their socks with basic things like the way cabin crew and even some flight crew carry themselves with interaction with HKA's travelling public....ie big improvement in their english standards. I hear that sometimes communication between cabin crew and flight crew is a huge mission.
Competition in HK is a good thing for the public but HKA better be careful not be tagged the budget/low cost/no frills airline of HK.

[hongkongfooey]

I believe 3 or 4 F/Os have interviews with KA shortly. If they walk upright and have a pilots licence, they will probably get in.
If true, they will be leaving well short of their 3 year commitment and not a thing, other than dock a months pay, HKA can do about it.
Way to go HKA, real good operating philosophy, train pilots for other airlines, we should be in business for at least another, oh say, 12 months :D:{

[pilotinasia]

but isn't there a agreement between some carriers and HKA for jumping ship ?

Thought that happened to the 3 stooges :} who went back to HKA from Oasis and the 20K allowance did not go thru ?

News in the air is saying more a/c's arriving. 9 for 2008 ?

But till now, no one has resigned yet (moi could be wrong) to date except alot of shouting out LOUD with interviews.

[Dragon Spice]

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6085712&nseq=0

Looks kinda ordinary with the Hainan name......needs more creativity with the colors and livery. (hard thing to find in the mainland ie creativity)

[hongkongfooey]

Anybody else sick to death of hearing about the pay and conditions increasing :mad:
Well, I am, and also sick of being the lowest paid jet pilot in HK ( inc corporate ), probably not far from lowest in Asia.:ugh:
Its been nice flying with you guys/gals, most of you are waisted at HKA.
I know there probably isnt much call for a middle aged pilot with 15000+ hours, 9000 jet command,:rolleyes: but I'm going to give it a go, and as soon as I get a bite, I'm outta here.
Suggest you do the same, I doubt this place will ever get any better, you will grow old and grey waiting for it to.

[El Kabong]

Tuesday has come and...............GONE!! And the big announcement was......................... SWEET FA!!!!!!!!!!

Good bye Rumour Tuesday,
Who could hang a payrise on you,
When you change with every new day,
Sure AINT gonna miss you

(apologies to Mick, Keith, and the boys)

And then they lied to my face,
Now I'm a believer,
Not a trace, of doubt in my mind
I'm getting a raise
Hmmmmmmm, I'm a believer I couldn't leave em if I tried

(Monkees is kinda apt don't you think?) :ok:

[hongkongfooey]

Kabong, you're talents are waisted on aviation ;)

[Dragon Spice]

Why dont you guys and gals go for a mass interview with CX, KA, Oasis etc etc...that'll rattle the HKA management!

The next 2 aircraft are rumoured to be going to HKE not HKA!

With 500 jet there are widebody positions available at places like Gulfair, Etihad, Air India, Jet airways etc.

Why fly for a commuter airline where lies and deciept are a part of life???

[pilotinasia]

looks like it's getting more & more interesting between hka/hke. what is actually happening ? anyone knows ? agreed, there are alot of openings out there . . . GO GO GO ! :ok:

[Dragon Spice]

I hear that the HKA crew have a pilots meeting today...wonder if its good news or the same news?

[Dragon Spice]

Is it true that 5 guys resigned yesterday? All off to KA?

Is it also true that the meeting was a non-event? ie "Please guys...stcik around for bigger things to happen etc etc?

[El Kabong]

3 "definites" don't know about the other 2. Meeting went around in circles and produced nothing, nothing at all, except the vague assertion that there may be something by christmas. Still no upgrade process.

Unfortunately you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time. I think that our esteemed "upper" management believe that the second part of the previous sentence is how it works. :yuk:

[Allou dri]

KA is desperate need drivers, very firm promise to offer but need to prepare work with the terrible roster:D

[Dragon Spice]

3 confirmed resignations.....I am aware of a handful of others that have their CV's in with some major carriers. The indication is that most of them will give HKA till June 08. If it remains status quo then they will definatly leave for bigger aircraft and better pay.
I do feel for GR as he is doing his best with Management :ugh:. Wouldnt be suprised if he hands in his resignation next year!
Whats wrong with giving the pilots a better housing aloowance..say $15,000HK - $20,000HK. Atleast this way guys will be prepared to wait for the command upgrade.
Whats the deal with "CAPTAIN" EC from CAD??? My understanding is that he has never held a command as he was deemed unfit to hoild a position on the left hand seat? You'd think he was the GMF of HKA/HKE with the way he carries himself in his "4 bars"!!! :}

[El Kabong]

Why would you wait until June? That's the whole bloody problem!! Most want to sit on the fence unprepaired to 'tinkle or get off the pot". This attitude is playing right into management's hands. Why will they improve pay and conditions while people "wait until June" and still more keep arriving. If you don't have the courage of your convictions then just shut up and eat the cr@p you are served. Unfortunately the vast majority of pilots are just full of p1ss and wind.

[Dragon Spice]

Ouch.....dont shoot the messenger. Maybe have a word to your comrades.

El Kabong you are right though. I personally think that they are only waiting for the command upgrade to be approved by then...if it hasnt happened by then...I know atleast 13 guys personally that will hand in their resignations in June. Most of them have the cv's on top of the pile with some major carriers.

Isnt it funny about one of the resignees yesterday...he hasnt even started line training yet and he's off! Good on him! (Good on the other 2 as well!)

HKA....a trend has begun!

[hongkongfooey]

15-20K housing, sorry, discressionary allowance just wont cut it :mad:
What about the :mad: poor wages ( 30% below Dragon for you deluded HKA managers ), lack of holidays, no 13th mth bonus, crap sick leave, crap ( ie no ) education allowance, crap staff travel, etc etc.
Hsng is the absolute tip of the iceberg.
These guys want to be major players, paying minor league wages.
Good luck with that HKA, I'm joining Kabong ( well, not literally ), and I have a feeling I wont be alone when the pittance is offered at the end of the year :{

[Dragon Spice]

As mentioned earlier...when the pittance is offered 13 pretty much confirmed will resign. A few cpatains also heading back to Shenzhen airlines. By the way...can anyone give me the latest figures for KA package?

[hongkongfooey]

Tick Tock, Tick Tock........................................................ .

Everybody I fly with is talking about/doing something about leaving if there is no improvement soon.
HKA, forget about the upgrade programme, their will be no one suitable left to upgrade, you are extremely ignorant if you think you can continue serving up the worst conditions, by a mile, in HK aviation.

Watch this space...................:cool:

[AAIGUY]

Just heard another SFO resigned . :ok:

[hongkongfooey]

Yep, and if Santa aint good to us this year he ( the resignee ) will be like the Pied Piper, trust me, I know boats :ok:

[pilotinasia]

just got the news, no improvement or reply even with email sent to the management, another 2 guys confirmed RESIGNING by this year so the total is 15, 20 ? sounds like a sinking ship :ouch:

[Allou dri]

Soon a new chief from AirHK will taking over both HKE & HKA flt operations and u will see more S'porean pilots!!

[Hoofharted]

15 to 20 resignations eh?...............What the hell have you been smoking? There may be 15 to 20 wingeing and whining, but only four have resigned. Only four have had the guts to "walk the talk", the rest just go blah blah blah blah blah. While they sit around and tolerate the lies and deceit generated by this company they deserve what they get.

"Action Talks and Bullsh1t Walks" on a road to nowhere :ok:

[AAIGUY]

21 pilots have left HKA since last fall.
Last 13-14 months
The latest four are a just this week.

[hongkongfooey]

Give us a chance hoof, even in the current climate it takes more than a couple of weeks to line up a new job.
Be assured there are plenty of applications going out, and interviews etc in the near future, not just whinging.
We will re-visit this in a couple of months.........................

[Dragon Spice]

Whats the story with the new 'Director of Operations"? Who is he....what will he do...when will he start? What's the story about the fracas at HKA HQ with him and other management pilots?

If the new package doesnt go through by xmas then 4 more guys are heading back to Aus/NZ by March at the latest.

[bazbogan]

I believe a base salary $44500 + $17500 rent or $25000 if you own. Other benefits include $2000/month for you and your spouse for travel home, education for kids and increases in gratuity payments.

Lets hope santa's sleigh is full!

[BOGAN]

Actually Hoofharted even though he sounds more like halfarsed, is half right.
If more guys actually spoke up and said something directly to management, they might realise pilots mean business. Not much can happen when only a few speak up. Good on those who walk with their feet, however, some may not be in the same situation to be able to pack up and leave.
So Hoofharted, I think the bullsh*t comes out your mouth.

[Hoofharted]

Actually Hoofharted even though he sounds more like halfarsed, is half right.
If more guys actually spoke up and said something directly to management, they might realise pilots mean business. Not much can happen when only a few speak up. Good on those who walk with their feet, however, some may not be in the same situation to be able to pack up and leave.
So Hoofharted, I think the bullsh*t comes out your mouth."Half right" or "bullsh*t" which is it bogan boy..............can't have it both ways. And while we are on the subject you say "good on those who walk with their feet" (don't know what else you might walk on, or maybe you walk on your hands like a circus monkey) what have you done or said "directly to management" in order to improve T&C's, anything, anything at all, Beuller, Beuller? Your post would suggest sweet FA mate so :D bravo :yuk:

[fruitless...]

"Singaporean mob" moving in..mates! One already in there in training..medically grounded AHK mgnt. pilot mooting in his trooops from AHK to HK Air management....wiping out the present guys....snakes in the grass...man!! :D

[fruitless...]

...check and training.... claimed as Capt. of GF in some malaysian airline ...belief..to be groomed as training manager...by incoming S'porean DFO...snake! Good luck mates!:D

[CAPT_BEER]

Why We Bother?
some of us have nothing better to do, so we come in here to slander others.

I drank myself out of a job @ SQ, then created a mess for myself over with Air Asia, came to hong kong when somebody gave me a break with AHK, ran off the runway soon as i started training, NO fault of mine, mind you, airbus didn't teach me the correct technique! But here i still am, with a job and lots of time on my hands.
Nothing better to do, just like you lot, really want to be somebody in the airline industry, but lack the abilities, cause everybody in the world just can't seem to see all my talents, which i know i have, i keep telling everyone that all the time.

I am one of the best, if not the best instructor in the world, if only they will give me a chance to share my knowledge and vast experience.

Guess the only way left for us LOSERS to get somewhere in this world is to slander everyone else. What have we got to lose? Got nothing better to do anyway.

[CAPT_BEER]

Sunny boy, I was with my CTC, good ole chap from CX, he was watching my technique for lineup and we ran off the hard surface when the brand new engines didn't rev up together. Like i posted earlier, not my fault. He didn't catch the uneven run-up. He was the PNF and instructor. If i were the instructor, nothing of this sort would have happened.

[xdc9er]

Damn, I love a good Novela.

Pass the popcorn
lol
X

[Kestrel120]

Hi CAPTAIN CAPTAIN BEER,

HA HA HA .... HA HA HA...... You just made my day, HE HE HE....

[Dragon Spice]

How did the old management 'not' work? They have 7 new 738's up and running, no incidents, training up to standard, IOSA audit...only 1 fault.......whats wrong with that???

I take my hat off to the old management (except for KW...not that she is managament!)

[hongkongfooey]

Agreed, pilots should stick to flying
and management should stick to telling the truth

[AAIGUY]

"I take my hat off to the old management (except for KW...not that she is managament!)"
That's just crap. If it wasn't for KW likely nothing would happen.
If you don't like the answer she has given you, or not received something you should have , do you think she is keeping it from you?
Or perhaps its the Moronic Muppets occupying the corner offices who don't allow flight ops the funding and support required.
I can think of a number of pilots who wouldn't be working now without her pushing thru the paper work. Do you think anyone else in that office cares?

[Hoofharted]

Dragonspice you are a moron. Just wandering why you might make the above-mentioned statement regarding KW. One can only assume that a) you are someone who thinks that he is waaaaaay more important than he really is or b) you don't actually work for HKA at all.

The person to whom you refer actually works very hard at HKA, more so than they are paid to do. The only problem that person may have is that they find it hard to hide the fact that they do not suffer fools easily, which leads to the conclusion that this may have something to do with your animosity towards them. After all if the shoe fits.......:=:yuk:

[Dragon Spice]

"Moron"....ouch :{ Good to see that we have people of all ages here on Pprune.....havent heard that one since Elementary school!

Ok I agree that it was low of me to do so....but I am entitled to my opinion. There are alot of opinions going around here about other people. I have met her at the local and she seems very arrogant. Also heard about her interaction with pilots at HKA....not good.

AAIGUY and Hoofharted I do apologise if I got your knickers in a twist I wont bring up her name again.

[knackeredII]

So are you following this thread?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=303232

[Hoofharted]

MORON:

–noun 1.a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment. 2.Psychology. a person of borderline intelligence in a former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69.

Doesn't appear to be anything in the above definition relating to "grade-school" or that it's use may be restricted to individuals of school age. I have not studied Einsteins E=MC2 since high school, so does that make it any less relevant?

The thing with your previous post Dragonspice, is that you hide behind the the protection of PPRUNE anonymity but you are quite happy to try and publicly name and shame another individual. Rather than displaying such rank cowardice, why don't you post your own initials and gender on this thread for all to see? And while you are at it, why not post your own professional details as you appear to be only too happy to "slag-off" those of others!

Its not me you should be making an apology to. :=

[Dragon Spice]

Hoof...I have apologised...if you want me to send you flowers then I would be happy to do so. I dont want to bother you to go open the dictionary etc for my posts. So please reeeeeeelax!:zzz:

[knackeredII]

Good to see the two of you took the weekend off from abusing each other.

Apologies for the above link. It referred to a post on the Malaysian pilot's website supposedly from someone recruiting fellow SE Asians to repopulate HKA.

Thread was removed shortly after my post above.

[MAPAWATCHER]

The Thread was removed after 168 got traced and is now in deep ****. Becareful, administrator have been asked to feedback info on HKA threads and it won't be long before all HKA threads will be banned or removed from PPrune.

[hongkongfooey]

Truth hurting, is it :}

[drool69er]

Sounds like there are already snakes in the grass a HKA. I heard that someone had an interview with another carrier in Hong Kong and had their photo taken by someone in HKA,as they were going to the interview, and sent it by email to management. What kind of low down insecure scum bag would do such a thing? I feel bad for the guys who have to work amongst that sort of carry on. If I were that guy that took the photo, I'd think about getting the f#@k outta dodge before someone finds out who it is that took the photo. Or, by the sounds of this thread, he may have found his element.
Good luck HKA

[hkdb]

Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to drop a line and give some feed back about the AHK mgnt pilot aka (Singaporian Mobster) who is in currently in training, coming into HKA as management.

As I am new to the company none of you know me. I am a new hire for HKA and am currently in training with the above mentioned pilot.

First I would like to say THANK YOU :ok:to former General Flight Manager GR, as if it wasn't for him and the break he gave me I would not be here in training. Thank you very much GR!:D Also the current flight training staff and HR has been more than helpful to bring me on board, thank you to you all.:ok::D

I am not familiar with airline politics as I come from 20 years in the corporate sector. So please forgive any of my ignorance concerning any airline issues mentioned.

If I may, I would now like to take a moment to talk about my training partner the above mentioned pilot.

Your information is right concerning a AHK pilot currently in training for HKA.

We have been sitting side by side in the box since 9th of November doing transition training in freezing Korea. Ironically tonight is our checkride. Hopefully a non event as the training went well.

So before my training partner and I return to Hong Kong this weekend I would like to tell you what I know about this guy that I have been with everyday for the last 35 days.


This person has been nothing but an absolute invaluable asset to my training. He was well prepared and had a very good understanding of the airplane and the SOP for HKA before we started. Not bad considering he has never worked for HKA and hadn't flown the B737 since 1995.

As far as flying is concerned, one of the best pilots that I have ever trained with. Example on the first day of air work this is a guy who could do steep turns +/- 0 on altitude and speed, stalls with no loss of altitude and perfect recoveries. When it came time to hand fly the aircraft, he would make the autopilot jealous. Flight directors?? This guy shot approaches with, flight director, raw data, even with stand by instruments to perfection! His CRM was very professional and a constant help in the cockpit during those stressful non-normals. Never getting excited or rushing through the checklists, instead always making sure I was ok first, then proceeded at a pace that was beneficial to both of us. Never making me look bad or feel inferior in front of staff and instructors. Any corrections suggested to me were positive and helpful.


Since my Type rating and previous experience is on BBJ's (B737-700IGW) business jets, I have flown only in the corporate world and have had little experience in the airline world. this person spent much of his off time bringing me up to speed on airline procedures and SOP's, which are quite different then corporate. When not helping me along, he would be working on other projects to help better HKA. This is a person who has other pilots in the training center come up to him and talk to him about "good old times", these are the pilots who flown with him as his junior in other airlines and now are Captains.

He has a true interest in making HKA a successful and pleasurable place to work. He has a keen interest in the pilots working conditions as well as the compensation packages. He is a an asset to any airline that he works for.

As far as ethnic cleansing (refer to remarks in the forum), all I can tell you is that I am a white American who without his help, would have had to work twice as hard to be at the level of airline understanding I am now.

I understand any change in any company whether for good or bad is hard. As I stated earlier, I am very grateful for the staff that brought me into this company and will give my full cooperation to them and to any new management staff coming in. I would hope that before making judgement on any person, he or she be given the chance to prove themselves worthy or unworthy. And be judged on merit not on hear say or slanderous remarks. I hope the best for all staff at HKA and that I am proud and happy to be a part of HKA's team.

I came to HKA as a customer, it was because of the new aircraft and professional attitude of the flight and cabin crew that I pursued this company.

Remember at the end of the day it is the customer who puts the food on our tables and give us the opportunity to work in such a great profession. Stay focused on the positive not the negative and it cannot help but get better.:ok:

Sincerely,
HKA New Hire

[sandu]

:ok:

hope u will enjoy working with them

[hongkongfooey]

He has a true interest in making HKA a successful and pleasurable place to work. He has a keen interest in the pilots working conditions as well as the compensation packages. He is a an asset to any airline that he works for.


Sounds like a great bloke hkdb, could you please ask if he can help with getting a HKA captains salary/housing alowance somewhere close to a Dragon FOs. After their recent pay increase I believe we ( HKA captains ) will be between 13000 and 43000HKD/month worse off than a KA FO.

Cheers

[eric is a loser]

Well said ulaula

In fact your version has been told to me as well from a reliable source, exatly the same as what you have said, so I also find the "love story" very disgusting.
I wonder if the AHK guy wrote it himself?
HKA and the new management reek of nepitism.
Oh and don't expect command upgrade programme in place until all the present hard working common sense good guys are gone and your CAD representative has passed his command upgrade. (He'll have to learn how to fly a VOR track first, so it may take some time!!)

[BOBO1769]

Hey Ulaula123,

Why! you tired of being 168 is it. We at Air Hongkong know that it is you CAPT.BIR SINGH.

You still have this jealously over RS is it. You like talking about people behind their backs. You never learn your lesson. Still being the same old liar and clever in making up stories.

Shame on you. No wonder you were demoted from the most Senior F/O in Singapore Airlines to the most junior because of your drinking problem and then got kicked because SQ got tired of you.

Look at yourself first before trying to paint pictures of others. No wonder you are not getting any where. Sour Grapes!

Grow UP Capt Bir Singh.

[BOBO1769]

Hey Eric is aLoser,

Why you using this name? What has the CAD done to you? Since you are in HKA why won't you ask HKDB himself. You should know who he is. Right!

[eric is a loser]

Sorry guys but while I'm on the topic................
As far as I know, all the problems arisin to date at HKA are at the hands of a certain individual from CAD, whom calls himself captain, wears 4xbars, but is NOT left hand seat qualified, nor has the technical or physical skill to pass his type rating as such.
This particular so called Captain, is NOT employed by HKA but continues to take valuable F/O flying time at his desire, even by late notice, (upon the authority of his bum buddy now ex CEO). For reasons I don't know.
He doesn't fly or get checked by senior trainers, my guess is that he knows he is incompetent.
And because senior trainers refused to give him a command because of his incompetence, he has systematically stabbed them in the back and manipulated CAD and management to have them removed, which of course is starting to happen now.
He is mates with this incompetent AHK snake. Together these two have worked behind peoples back, with management and CAD, to get Flight OPs removed, and these guys to take over.
This stinks to high heaven of nepitism, corruption, and creates and environment of distrust.
The CAD rep for HKA should be removed ASAP and prevented from flying before he has an occurence and blames it on someone else, and ruins the great potential that HKA has not only by his lack of pilot skills, but also his snake like behaviour, the kind you'd expect from a depressed fat teenage girl, not a government official.
If HKA is to succeed, he must be gone.

[BOBO1769]

Hello,

If you guys not happy with HKA just leave. No point getting so stress up. You come here to earn so behave. Just like some of us in Air Hongkong, we also not happy but we never talk about Air Hongkong like you guys about HKA. We just put in our resignation and leave. We already have HKG license so its natural that many of us will join HKA.

You guys should consider yourselfs lucky. If you leave no need to pay BOND. We at AHK have to you know - still we never bitch!

[eric is a loser]

Bobo
Its not what he's done to me, its what he is doing to HKA.

Don't assume I work for HKA. I don't know HKDB.

[777300ER]

This post seems to be way out of hand IMHO.

As an external observer, I must say, the path that HKA seems to be heading down is somewhat familiar. I can only take what I read here with a grain of salt (to put it lightly) but if even 10% is true, I am deeply concerned for all of you.

When politics and nepotism engulf a flight operation, it is only a matter of time before the unthinkable happens. I hope I am wrong...

Fly safely chaps.. It all depends on you..

[BOBO1769]

Sorry then "Eric is a Loser". Maybe you can ask someone from HKA.

[BOBO1769]

I agree 777300ER. This posts should be taken OFF by the Administrator just like what they did for the 168 Post. Forget about what's being said and do our work. Don't believe what you hear. Rumours are BAD.

[MAPAWATCHER]

Hongkongfooey what's stopping you from joining KA?
We need your slot.

[eric is a loser]

Bobo
You obviously don't know anything about the issues of guys trying to leave, the fact that they ARE bonded, some have been prevented by management to resign.
Some get away with it, others aren't so lucky.
Wish I was like you, just drifting through aviation thinking my sh^t don't stink.

[BOBO1769]

You know ERIC IAL, when we first started with AHK it was nice and pleasant atmosphere to work. The management team then was nice. Then the 3 years came and some retirement. New management took over (also got politics), then come changes. We were open minded - gave the new team a chance but then was not as nice as the old days. We want the nice team back. If they move to HKA we will follow. So just wait and see where the outgoing HKA team is going. If those HKA pilots like them then follow them. Give us the slots in HKA so we may join our old team.

By the way ERIC IAL did you move from HKA to KA?

[BOBO1769]

You know AHK also in need of pilots. They also getting Indonesians. No choice. All that is required is good training. Ultimately the company makes the pilots. HKA guys can apply to join AHK - very easy. Good chance to get on to widebody experience.

I think there are enough AHK guys willing to move in to exchange places with the HKA pilots whom are not happy. We like working with the new team but I hope they can work with CAPT.BIR SINGH who is actually a small fry in the company but always talk BIG.

[MAPAWATCHER]

Good one BOBO. We at MAS know him very well. His name itself is a JOKE. Ask any of us, especially when you are in Kimchiland on your stops. We are in HYATT also. We are most happy to tell you his stories.

[Leaving HKA]

There is no legal bond in HKG.

Period.

The only people prevented from leaving were saboutaged by Managment.

They are still leaving. Just to different employers.

If you stay @ HKA under the current conditions you are a p*ssy and deserve what you get.

[pilotinasia]

looks like more colors and truth are coming out at the end of the day ... more to come in the near future i believe ;)

[fruitless...]

Looks like BOBO is desperate. Post after post! :ugh:

Fly safe!

[MAPAWATCHER]

Hello MATREMIT69 you stay cool nothing to do with RS/RJ. Just Bir and his evilness. Email me direct.

[MatRempit69]

What's this 'Singapore mob' and is RS / RJ part of this mob ? :confused: :(

:sad:

[Blown Seal]

Another FO resigned yesterday.

[Flying Mechanic]

thats a great loss to the company, hed been there a while.

[AAIGUY]

I just heard.. thats a huge loss for the company.


People thinking of joining just give this tid bit some thought.

When the SENIOR FO NEXT to upgrade (presuming we ever get a company approved course) leaves after nearly 3 years service... why are you joining.

Best of luck to our Kiwi friend.

[Flying Mechanic]

he could put a free keg of puss on at the slashers arm to celebrate!

[bila]

As a MAPA member, I would like to put on record a few points before an interesting year 2007 comes to an end. Referring to the post by 168 for HKA recruitment (which was removed), though individual name’s should have been omitted, but facts remain that the particular post was posted on our MAPA Industrial Forum in March 2007. Wonder it was posted in SQ ALPA’s forum?

That particular post was then being edited 1st week of Dec 2007 ………kalian masih ingat kan????? Heard RJ/RS (together with SIN mobs coming to HKA through the back door perhaps????) have moved on to recruit AK / AA ;) boys in a ‘hide and sick’ manner.


Macam geng kita MR69 bilang, we MH boys as well as our ex-colleagues in KimChi land should not be drag into their own doings. Their bitterness should not make any of our MH boys (be it current or ex-colleagues) a scape goat … Aduhai…JANGAN NAK KENAKAN GENG-GENG SENDIRI kan???????? :{


Hope 2008 will be a glorious year of opportunities for Professional Pilots in Asia including Fragrant HarBour…….:ok:


Wishing all our friends in KimChi land, SandPit, Singapore & rest of the world a very Selamat Tahun Baru / HAPPY NEW YEAR!!………:D


Safe flights!

[hkrascal]

Thank you Bila for putting the record straight. I think most of us guessed that the 168 post was genuine and that the Singaporean Mob hi-jacked the thread to shut down and any reasonable discussion.
The 168 post should sicken any right minded professional for its sneaky and racist content.
The author should offer an explaination and apology and then resign the management position which I understand he holds.

[vsky72]

Hi.. I am new in this forum..and I have a friend who has over 10 years of experience as pilot and is now seeking for a pilot job in Hong Kong...
Does anyone knows any good airlines is recruiting pilots so my friend can apply to?? It would be great if anyone knows the contact person/ contact email address for pilot application..(I heard that u must need to know someone so to apply for a pilot job easier??)..
by the way.. Does anyone knows if Cathay is interested to recruit American pilot?? I heard that they only recruit Canadian/ British??
and... is there any pilot job available at the Fedex, DHL/ UPS??

hope you guys can help me out..

thanks a lot and hope to hear some news soon..
:)

[STVINCENT]

Bila you seem desperate to put your post here as well so I attached what I mentioned from the other:
............................................................ ..............................

Hi Bila, whats with you. This topic has been taken off by the Administrator. No one is interested in this anymore.

You want to bring this up again? You want to start another round? Nothing to put straight - are you straight? 168 died so let it be. No need to mention Kimchiland anymore. Who you collaborating with? I am Vincent. Letter was addressed to me. Who are you? if you dare to admit, otherwise call me. If you are truly what you say you know how to get in touch with me.

Nothing you say here can change the fact that people you are against have move up places and those opposing have been kicked out. You are going against those who have big followers and connections. Who do you have? Suggest you stay out of this.

............................................................ .........................
HKrascal you also better stay out of this. You are in collaboration with Bila. We know who you are so stay out. You lose.

[jack340330]

Hello Capt:

many tks for the airlines information in HK. Now, could you pass me more detail information about HKA? really appreciate your kindness help. such as: pay, house allowence....

I am working with Asiana in A330 now ( I have both A340and A330 type rating). I don't have kids. I am canadian chinese used to work in Etihad. cuz, both me and my wife like to travel and see all over the place since we don't have kid. once again, really appreciate your time and information. keep in touch!!

cheers,
Jack

[NewEssO]

There is no legal bond in HKG.

Period.



I believe the CX cadets are on a bond for a few years

[SMOC]

CX cadets are not bonded, CX like to make them think they are though, as said it's not legal in HKG to bond.

[HKSINGH]

Hi Jack,

Don't believe what people say about Ex-F/Os. These guys have more experience than Sunmoon claimed. Example: a pilot may have been an experience jet Capt in some Australian airline but if he joins Emirates, Cathay or Dragon he starts as F/O as per company policy. What is your impression of such an F/O?

I believe the criteria for Direct Entry F/Os in HKA has been increased. They prefer applicants with jet and airline time. At least above 40,000kgs and those for DE Capts must have PIC time on type above 50,000kgs I think!

So far the applicants with the new criteria so happens to be Asians. There are hardly any caucasian applicants with similar criteria for DE F/O. Those with only turbine time and small aircraft have a better chance with Cathay and Dragon. Since you are A330/340 rated why can't you join Cathay or Dragon why choose HKA?

[hongkongfooey]

Great advice from HKSINGH Jack, join Dragon as F/O and be on a better package than HKA management pilots :hmm:

[fruitless...]

Hi..

Is the new criteria for DE FO's to weed out the caucasians coincidently ?? :suspect: On the other hand what's the criteria for DE Captains ? Less than 1,000hrs PIC Jet > 50,0000 KGS ?? :confused:

Please advise.

[Bob Hawk]

Fella's, are the wheels falling off or have they gone completely. The word is HKA crews will join HKE.

Good luck.

Bob