SAA explaining to parliament

[Jamex]

Heard the report on radio702 around 12H30 this afternoon regarding SAA 'please explaining':) to parliament. Seems the consultancy they(SAA) hired has reported the obvious, namely, too many managers, managers earning too much, etc.The comparison is with other airlines of similar size, fleet, route network, etc. SAA had to endure critisism with regards to how SAA were screwing-up parliaments travel plans with lot luggage being mentioned. Throughout it all the one fact not mentioned, quite ironically, is how SAA pilots are raping the company with their "high" and "unreasonable" demands! Seems the pilots are way ahead of management and maybe management should do the honourable thing(What!! This is South Africa!!) Resign and let the pilots run the operation if you ever want to see profitability again! There, nailed MY colours to the mast.:D

[spacedaddy]

Poor SAA
They are doing well!
They have a PLAN (A Pappion Plan)
They are doing all the right things to become profitable
We should all get behind them and help them out as our "National Carrier"
We should sacrifice
Let them have their way
Coleman was bad
Andre was worse
Khaya? He is our hero!!!@@@????
He can't receive criticism,
Part of the new order
Come to think of it
We are bending over and
They are behind us. lol
The pilots are way overpaid but would you give it back?

[taperlok]

let me guess. Both of you haven't made the SAA selection yet.:{

[George Tower]

let the pilots run the operation if you ever want to see profitability again!

Last I heard financial management wasn't on the ATPL syllabus:ouch:

[Jamex]

Financial management may not be on the ATP syllabus but how 'good' do you have to be to run SAA? Looking at the arrogance of their current management I see little to be worried about. The pilots at least have common sense. Anyway, the actual purpose of my post was to get a rise out of Deskjockey. I have always enjoyed his posts. Very informed, reasoned and probably the only person currently in SAA management who seems to know what he is about. Unfortunately, he seemed to lose the plot in the other post regarding cuts at SAA. Come on DJ, heres your opportunity to make right with those who concede you actually know what you are talking about. Give us some gen regarding todays happenings. I, for one, sincerely hope SAA remains in business for the ever. I have no weish to see them disappear. I just feel the pilots should be taken seriously. They have a lot to offer and cannot always be wrong or at fault. Letsd get some healthy discussion going here. The company may just actually benefit from this. Im sure there are those who remember the good work done by Pine Pienaar. Gosh, I seem to recall HE actually was a pilot!

[fluffyfan]

Jamex

If SAA was run by the pilots let me assure you things would be very different, DJ the clown that he is was recently seen admonishing the pilot managers for not being at work enough....maybe because they were flying, on top of everything else they do.

SAA managemnet has consistently ignored every suggestion the pilot group has to offer, for some reason we are the enemy at SAA, maybe because we do our jobs well and are not scared to state the obvious how management is Fu:mad:ing up at SAA, maybe because we are not scared to point out the corruption, the mismanagement, the basic lack of any sort of management skills, SAA is about jobs for buddies, being in the ANC, being a certain skin colour.....its a government employment agency, the pilot group has known this for a long time, we have let the social experiment continue, but now suddenly the government wants to know why we can not make a profit.............well here is my explanation.

Maybe the reason SAA can not make a profit is because
A) Rampant crime..........police force obviousley useless
B) No Electricity (despite some of the highest taxes in the world)
C) No Water (despite some of the highest taxes in the world)
D) No Decent Health care system (where is the tax going)
E) No Decent Educaional system.....if it was why are all the ministers kids in private Education (where is the tax going)
F) Roads falling appart (where is the tax going)
G) the Health minister had a liver transplant on tax payers money because she is a rampant alcoholic and she killed her last liver, she used her status to bypass everyone to get a new liver
H) The Chief of Police in SA has connections to organised crime
I) Robert McBride is the boss of JHB Metro Police

these are just the ones I can think of right now after 1/2 a bottle of wine

The reason SAA is falling apart is the same as above, Morons are in charge, they have stolen all the money, they are just here to see a short term profit so they can take a bonus home, if that means selling everything then so be it.

I finally give up, I have been the ultimate SAA optimist for the past couple of years, I am now searching for further employment because my current employer thinks
a) I am too highly paid (despite my salary being lower than my contemporaries)
b) I am the wrong colour ( I am white therefore I am guilty of everything)

DJ I am sure you are oh so proud of your achievemets, you guys had the potential to be a "world Airline" via SAA but you have chosen a little no name no nothing instead aka Mango......RIP SAA.

[Jamex]

Well said Fluffyfan!! Good to see someone has the gumption to call it the way he sees it. As I said in my post, I would love to see SAA survive the current moronic management. Unfortunately, optimistic as I may be, I also have to be a realist. I cannot see the company surviving as things stand at present. I still believe Mango is an attempt to blow the unions off at SAA and that ultimately, should the unions or particularly the pilots, not play ball, then Mango will succeed SAA. This is nothing more than a SA attempt to do what a certain Frank Lorenzo in the US managed to do in the '80s. He managed to negotiate salary cuts with the pilot union, there was a "snap-back" clause negotiated for the end of the concession agreement. Comes the time for the airline to pay-back as per the negotiated agreement and the company declares Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and the snap-back is seen as debt which can now be written off! Pilots lose and there was nothing they could do if they still wanted a job. Fortunately, this exact scenario is not legal in SA, but look for a very similar tactic of creating perceived alternatives and getting the pilots to negotiate for their jobs instead of proper compensation. Let SAAPA be awake to ALL dirty tactics!

[spacedaddy]

Fluffyfan,
In most cases pilots do not know how to run an airline very well. Yes there are some good ones. Air Malawi and Air Seychelles are examples.

SAA had great potential but "potential" is just a word without top management being left alone and making the real tough decisions with no regards to AA. It doesn't matter what colour that top management is but the powers that be only see black. What a real fix. Khaya is inept and totally incompetent but can they come out and lump him with the white boys? You will see his imminent departure will be full of acolades.

AMEN! to the rest of your comments.

[asianeagle]

let me guess. Both of you haven't made the SAA selection yet.:{


Taperlok........... you are a box!! aka D:ooh::ooh:S!
Playing the "I am sh:}t hot cos I am in and you aint" card again.
Did you ever stop to consider that maybe these guys 'used' to be in SAA as many people once were till they saw the light.

[Avi8tor]

I love how the SAA lot love to blame the 'new SA' for there troubles. I fail to see how our friend Robert Mcbride has anything to do with SAA situation.

SAA over paid and under worked. Top to bottom. Always has been, always will be. And god forbid that pilots run an airline. That is a recipe for a monumental F up.

I finally give up, I have been the ultimate SAA optimist for the past couple of years, I am now searching for further employment because my current employer thinks
a) I am too highly paid (despite my salary being lower than my contemporaries)

I think your in for a nasty shock. I think you are going to to battle to find a job that pays so much, to do so little. Please feel free to browse the following:-
http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/Cathay_Pacific_Cargo_Pilot_Pay.php

Khaya is inept and totally incompetent
Apart from the 'come to work in the chopper to save money' scheme and his poor handling of the cabin attendants strike, his is THE FIRST one that has had the balls to tackle SAA's problems head on.

The upside to this whole mess is with any luck, it will finally get the SA aviation industry onto a level playing field. Sell off SAA/SAX and let the market play out.

[fluffyfan]

Actually Avi8tor, I dont think I am in for a shock, having done some research myself already and you may have heard about a big expensive study paid for by SAAPA and Audited by SAA on pilot salaries and how they compare....yes the big parity study, SAA pilots are still 30% behind there contemporaries, thats what the figures say.....not me.

However when you factor in that I have to pay for Security (security company levies etc), Schooling, medical etc you will possibly see where our money goes in this country, this dispite tax of over 40%

I fail to see how our friend Robert Mcbride has anything to do with SAA situation.

Really? you cant see how maybe this man got his job because of his connections in the ANC, you think maybe he is qualified to do the job........does this sound familiar?

And lets not give Khaya credit for anything, because its the consultants Seabury who have done his job for him

[Avi8tor]

I dont think I am in for a shock, having done some research myself already and you may have heard about a big expensive study paid for by SAAPA and Audited by SAA on pilot salaries and how they compare....yes the big parity study, SAA pilots are still 30% behind there contemporaries, thats what the figures say.....not me.

Last time I looked the highest paid job in the USA was at FEDEX Captain top scale. And that is $235k = R1.7mil*. I know captains on more than that at SAA. Let alone total cost to employer. That is based on 87 hrs (hard hrs) per month. SAA's pilots hit overtime at how many hrs?

The average captain in the US majors is $173K(R1.25mil) and 79.6hrs average flying per month.* That is TOP scale!!!

SAA is a P:mad:SS pot, loss making african airline. To compare SAA to Delta etc u would have to be mad. The bad managers at SAA that allowed the 'parity pony' should have been fired for gross stupidity.

Yeah, and the problem here is you are NOT about to walk into a job at Delta etc. SAA guys are gonna have to get their heads around CX/EK or any other middle/far east salaries. Those salaries are on www.willflyforfood.cc

If anybody thinks they are gonna walk into a SAA salary at another airline, they should stop drinking.

* Info out of Professional Pilot June 2007

[reptile]

having done some research myself already and you may have heard about a big expensive study paid for by SAAPA and Audited by SAA on pilot salaries and how they compare....yes the big parity study, SAA pilots are still 30% behind there contemporaries, thats what the figures say.....not me.

Except..............the other airlines in the basket are actually making a profit, and not riding the taxpayer bareback 'till it bleeds :}

[reptile]

let me guess. Both of you haven't made the SAA selection yet.
WHAT A TOSSER!!! :ouch::ouch::ouch:

I actually felt sorry for the poor bastards at SAA losing their jobs - but with that attitude I think you deserve to lose your house in the golf estate and your flashy BMW. Time you start slogging it out like the rest of the drivers.....you w:mad::mad:ker!

[esoterex]

Transformation successfully implemented. Well done.

Just a thought. If I or an organization would have been responsible for
the economic destruction of SAA we would have been convicted of
treason long ago.

[taperlok]

reptile

look in the mirror you will see a bigger tosser.
Yes some of the posts are from people who used to be at SAA. Due to their experience at SAA they got the jobs at EK etc. they all seem to forget that.

well said fluffyfan!!!:ok:

[nugpot]

look in the mirror you will see a bigger tosser.

Come on taperlok, if you SAA pilots are so much better than the rest of us you can surely come up with a better comeback.....

For every 10 immature SAA captains' sons like taperlok, there is at least one nice guy at SAA. We should feel sorry for those.

[Avi8tor]

Due to their experience at SAA they got the jobs at EK etc.
I wonder how the rest got in then?

If I or an organization would have been responsible for
the economic destruction of SAA we would have been convicted of
treason long ago.
As was said in the trial of the swissair bosses, 'stupidity is a lot of things, but not a crime'.

[fluffyfan]

Avi8tor I am not quite sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet about SAA salaries? and it does not bother me too much seeing as I am busy looking for new employment, I could go to the SAAPA web site and write a 5 page response to you on how the parity agreement was calculated but to be honest I could not give a :mad: anymore, lets just say that its not just Delta that are one of the comparisons there are about 8 others as well, and they were agreed to by both the company and the union.

SAA is a PSS pot, loss making african airline.

well yes, it is now......I wonder how that happened? but it is also the second oldest airline in the world and was once relativley big, the pilots were not always paid well, in fact they were probably the worst paid airline crew in the world prior to the 90's and once SA opened up and other countries started taking South Africans again there was a big exodus of pilots to better paid jobs, so the company had to come to the table and offer a reasonable salary base on world standards.

Let me just get your reasoning straight, SAA has been run into the ground by a succession of politically appointed 5 year wonders who had no intention of making the company health but just to make the books look good for there term of office.........so because SAA has shrunk and made a loss you think the pilots should take less pay to try and help out the poor management......oh ok, maybe the poor old Zimbabweans should pay more tax as well to help out Mugabe.

you quoted me Delta's figures....unfortunatley not an option for me, however there is BA, Virgin, a multitude of European airlines and freight operations, All Nippon.........and a host of middle Eastern and Asian Carriers, each one with better salaries (some of them tax free) than SAA.

I love how the SAA lot love to blame the 'new SA' for there troubles.

SAA has always made a loss, so no I do not blame the loss on the 'new SA' however the new SA has never had it so good in terms of passenger numbers. I would love to see the 'New SA' succeed, but alas I just have to look North at an entire continent and wonder how long it will be before the new elite pull a Mugabe, SA is in deep trouble, the police force is a joke, illegal imigrants are streaming across the border and turning to crime, nothing is run properly anymore, try get a licence disc for your car, try get a passport, its all been Africanized and thats how the rot starts, apart from the trouble at SAA I do not see a future in this country for my children, for starters they are white and discriminated against, the government of SA sees no value in me or my children, so I feel I must move to a place that does value what I have to offer.

[PAXboy]

Being a complete outside, but an observer of South Africa and one who made the decision not to make his adult life there ... I'm going to stick my unwanted nose into this thread. :=

Can you recall the things that were said about the 'old' SAA in the 1980s ... was it any different? But, as many of you are saying - the situation is not unique to SAA.

The things that you are saying here are identical with the things the pilots and staff say about BA in PPRuNe. They are the identical to things I have heard people say about the big corporations that I have worked for across 27 years in telecommunications and IT. Big companies always create their own weather systems and someone is always going to land up on the short end. The fact that pilots are treated badly I find highly irritating for all the normal reasons (and my nephew is a commercial pilot) so I am on your side.

But, my rather gloomy personal view is that: it makes no never mind which country you are in and what the line of business is. And it is certainly true that management can be wonderful and/or stupid, irrespective of skin colour. :(

[Avi8tor]

I am not quite sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet about SAA salaries
If SAA was making a profit and giving shareholder value, the could pay the tea girl a million rand for all I care. The sad truth is SAA is not, its is burning cash at an alarming rate. This is while Comair is posting record profits.

This is in a company that ALL the staff are overpaid and under worked but not only local standards but world averages too. What baffles me, is that this is in a country with a 30% unemployment rate. SAA also has a huge pile of pilot CV's.

Also the state subsidizing loss making airlines is wreaking the industry for the rest. This is NOT just about SAA, this is about getting the SA aviation industry on a healthy footing for secure long term growth. If some drivers feel that they can do better elsewhere, crack on. Thats called globalization.

No Nobel prize in economics required to see the solution here. Its called the Law of Supply and Demand.

BA, Virgin, a multitude of European airlines and freight operations, All Nippon.........and a host of middle Eastern and Asian Carriers, each one with better salaries (some of them tax free) than SAA.

I have a feeling you are in for a rude shock. But I do wish you all the best. But I couldn't see any senior F/O's at SAA leaving for a starting salary anywhere else. Let alone captains. Even if they did, plenty of ppl waiting for their jobs.

[fluffyfan]

If SAA was making a profit and giving shareholder value, the could pay the tea girl a million rand for all I care. The sad truth is SAA is not, its is burning cash at an alarming rate. This is while Comair is posting record profits.

Well yes it would be nice if SAA was making a profit, and if SAA was a private organisation that worked as normal businesses do ie Comair where no profit means big problems I would agree, however SAA is a government entity, its a Jobs for buddies programme, its a BEE lets employ as many black people as possible, its a government transport system, its a wave the flag for SA by flying to African S:mad:it holes...........so for you to compare SAA to Comair is ridiculous, Comair is run by a group that means to do business and make a profit that is all

SAA also has a huge pile of pilot CV's.

DJ is that you? is Avi8tor your alternate name?
Yes, it does and so does Comair, Nationwide, 1time etc, what does that mean to you? it sounds like you think the pilot group is dispensable because there are lots of people looking for jobs, you see once again you seem to be displaying a very short sighted point of view, fistly a CV on a desk is exactly that, its a CV on a desk not an experienced airline pilot with thousands of jet hours, those CV's you may find on the pile but thats just because HR is so useless that they have not updated there records, had they done so they would have found most of the experienced pilots have gone elsewhere, finally giving up on SAA and its BEE policies of only empolying a certain skin colour or gender. Chatting to my mates at competative airlines recently, not one is interested in SAA anymore. Let me ask you Avi8tor, what do you think the pilot turnover is like at BA, AA, Lufthansa? I would say not big maybe because its a career airline and they treat there staff with respect and pay them well, they have probably calculated the cost of training 50 guys every year versus paying there pilots descently, something I guarantee SAA managemnet has not done, there has never been forward thinking in SAA.

But anyway as I have said I am out of here, I look on with fond memories, it will make me sick to my stomach to see SAA become another Nationwide or Mango where the pilots are paid :mad: so they just get the rating and move on, I am sure it will make management and the government happy, it will give them more money to add to there bonuses and they can buy another house in the South of France or another big black BMW. Hey heres a thought, maybe there is a reason that the other "progressive" airlines in the world are looking for experienced pilots, in fact not just looking conducting roadshows, offering incentives, advertising etc maybe they realise that its experienced crews that are becoming rare and they would like there airlines to be crewed by experienced people........I wonder why? I think they are mistaken, I think you are correct Even if they did, plenty of ppl waiting for their jobs. yes lots of PPL's out there just put them in the uniform and sit them down, hey one of the bus drivers at work the other day expressed an interest in becoming a Captain........why not he just needs the uniform, thats how it is in SA, put on a Business Suit and you are a "Richard Brandson" put on a police uniform and you are a "Police Detective" put on a Doctors coat and you become a doctor.............no experience required, who needs to spend time at university or training facilities, what a waste.

But I couldn't see any senior F/O's at SAA leaving for a starting salary anywhere else

Open your eyes, you are looking at one, and latest info is that 30 F/O's have recently resigned, including 2 cadets whose training was paid for by SAA but I can blame them why stay in this :mad: hole and wonder if you wife is going to get raped or somone you love murdered

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Dang, Fluffy...:ooh:

You're beginning to make too much sense, Bro. Did you have a near death epiphany or something?:ok:

[fluffyfan]

;)

Just re-evaluating things....dont like what I see.

I have a friend who grew up in Zim, he says they were Optemistic right to the end, so trying to keep my eyes open

[millertime]

Never thought i would actually post on this site because my 6 weekly visits leave me either depressed or angry, but here goes nothing. I am a domestic captain at SAA on notch 18, I clear around R46 000 a month, no car allowance, no car scheme. Granted the company does pay about R4500 a month into my pension scheme and I contribute the same. Have just been in personal contact with Qatar and their package on offer for the same position is approx 13300 US a month (it's actually on their website.) Even if 3000 US of that comprises housing and other allowances, it is still about R30 000 a month more than my present salary, and this for an airline that everybody says does not have great working conditions and pays average. Disposable income is unfortunately the thing you pay bills and educate the children with(no education subsidy).

Avi8tor, I do not know your history,but assume you are an expat because of your intense interest in things South African and things SAA. You made a decision to leave, probably a difficult and brave one, but it is time to look forward and stop looking backwards, just as you have to stand or fall by your decision to go, so must I stand or fall by my decision to stay. Enjoy your new life, buy some golf clubs or a fishing rod or whatever piques your interest and whenever you feel an obsessive compulsion to save South Africa or SAA from ruin, hit a golf ball, catch a fish or play with your kids in the park. Good luck my man enjoy everything you have, we all have to live with our decisions and it is best to start immediately. The fact is that SAA will never disappoint if you are looking for something to bash them about. it's just too easy, and the stories are often 3rd hand

[fly nice]

FedEx - 670 planes
American Airlines - 650 planes
Lufthansa Group - 530 -planes
British Airways - 230 planes
SAA - 56 planes

PARITY ??


WL,
With 670 planes, Fedex must have negotiated a great discount on airframes. Jetfuel too. Hey, they must be getting their pilots at rock bottom prices!!!

Ok, time to 'slaan dekking'!

[spacedaddy]

C'mon and help me out now. If I fly for Nationwide or 1 Time or Comair does that mean that you SAA snobs don't consider me a contemporary? Is it only Europeans and Americans that rate up there with you rocket aces? Am I inferior because I drive a 737-400 and you have an 800? If you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. If you didn't have gov'ment behind you you'd be crying for jobs with us. You make me sick. I look mthe paymaster in the eye not with my back turned. Come back with something pitiful.

[Avi8tor]

The fact is that SAA will never disappoint if you are looking for something to bash them about. it's just too easy, and the stories are often 3rd hand
This is NOT about bashing SAA, this is about getting the SA aviation industry on a level playing field. The only way to ensure LONG term stability is to get the state out the airline business. ALL the SAA types here have been blaming bad management. But I don't see them calling for it to be sold off. Then it is out of the big bad ANC's hands and political appointments.

But I would like to draw to said peoples attention that, as i recall, only 2 SAA CEO's have been black. Mike, Coleman and Andre have all been pale males. This mess is definitly NOT of the latest CEO's making.

And on the subject, SAA under the boere was as broederbond then as it is ANC now. It didn't make any money then either.

buy some golf clubs or a fishing rod or whatever piques your interest and whenever you feel an obsessive compulsion to save South Africa or SAA from ruin
This is the world of globalization. If SAA cant make it happen for you, then maybe it is time to move. Me with new golf bats or fishing sticks is not gonna change the fact that there are young guys, in sh:mad:t holes all over Africa, that would give their left and most of there right for your job.

[fluffyfan]

is not gonna change the fact that there are young guys, in sht holes all over Africa, that would give their left and most of there right for your job.

Absolutley true.....and that is what I keep saying, " I can not believe how lucky I am to be in SAA"

However AV8 things have changed somewhat, apparently the Emirates roadshow was a huge success, peope are scared/worried/uncertain about there futures in SAA, it may all be a tactic of the management there to scare the **** out of us to bring us to the negotiating table.......unfortunatley they may have done more than they intended, as I have said before and I keep saying.....DJ chooses not to respond because I dont think he has an ans, but SAA mis-managemnet may have started something they can not stop, there are lots and I mean lots of SAA pilots overpaid or not who are now looking for further employment, I for one would be happy to live in a civilized country living in a tiny house earning half what I earn now knowing my family are safe and I wont have to dodge a taxi on the way to work.

Fluffyfan........OUT

[Avi8tor]

there are lots and I mean lots of SAA pilots overpaid or not who are now looking for further employment
Good for you guys, I wish you all the best in what comes next.

Movement in the industry is good. The profile of the guy that packs his bucket and spade is a junior F/O with a young family. I can't see a senior captain selling his house in Sandton and Plett to move to $6500+/- and a company villa in area51(aka Silicon Oasis).

I suspect Comair/Nationwide/1time will all suffer the same losses. SAX/Link will not be affected as much directly. Link ,being the bottom of the food chain will ultimately be the biggest loser. As the forward thinking RF, and now JvJ, will lose pilots to everybody else.

Net result, everybody moves up the food chain. The good management teams with decided if it is cheaper to train or retain. Salaries will start to head up again.

Sorry guys, I am an unashamed capitalist pig. And whats more I love the fact that I live in Arabia, in a house build by pakistani workers, furnished with indian furniture and chinese appliances, have a philippino maid, drive a british built (American owned) 4x4xfar, with money I borrowed from a Hong Kong bank.

The biggest failing of the new SA, black, white and indifferent, is its NOT embracing globalization.

And so endth the 207th lesson.

[SAASFO]

Maybe DJ has also seen the light and taken a package?????:}

[fluffyfan]

Please find below the details of the airbus positions that we are recruiting for, these positions are all permanent and we are seeking to select approximately 150 pilots on behalf of our client which is an expanding national flag carrier.

First Officers (A319, A320, A321, A330, A340)

Requirements
Total minimum hours 1000 (airline time) or 500 hours if Airbus 320/330/340 rated.
Valid ICAO ATPL or frozen ICAO ATPL.
Below 45 years of age for type rated applicants.
Captains (A319, A320, A321, A330, A340)

Requirements
Total minimum hours 6000 (airline time) with at least 2000 hours of jet command.
Valid ICAO license.
Below 57 years of age for type rated applicants.
The remuneration package is as follows:


These positions carry all inclusive average monthly remuneration packages of approximately 13,738 $US for Captains, approximately 10,440 $US for First Officers increasing to 10,990 $US for Senior First Officers (these values are correct based on the exchange rate dated 16/04/2007) . Other benefits include meal allowances, flying allowance, away from base allowance, school fee subsidy for children and Loss of License/Medical/Group Life Insurances. All remuneration is tax free.

Staff travel: Full staff travel privileges on all networks for employee and family.

Leave ticket: 100% free , once a year for employee and family I.e. spouse and children (maximum of three children up to the age of 18 years). First class for Captains and business class for First Officers. On client airline's network.

Leave entitlement: 45 days per year on full pay.

Medical insurance: Full cover for employee and family in accordance with the rules of the insurer (excludes dental and optical).

Monthly hours: 60-80 block hours on average with sector length varying between 45 minutes and 5 hrs 40 minutes (typical A320 rosters).

Down route accommodation: At least 5 star hotel accommodation.

Command time: 3 Years within the company including 3,000 total hours.

Avi8tor...................that is a :mad: load more than I earn right now

[Frogman1484]

Fluffyfan....which airline is that?

[Avi8tor]

Welcome to expat life. And what you earn is a SH:mad:T load more than the guys at Solenta. Its funny, they wanna get OFF contract life and your trying to get onto it.

Small word of warning, just watch what decent accommodation costs.

[millertime]

second message in 2 days,perhaps I am addicted. Fluffyfan good luck, I know you and you will be a huge loss to our company and an asset to where ever you go. Forget the people preaching macro and micro economics (its all a paper exercise anyway, who earns more , who earns less , who pays, who cares, doesn't matter as long as u look 4ward and sort out the family). To be quite honest in my opinion we live in a country where 75% of the population earn less than R1500 a month looking after our kids and cleaning our houses, all travel should be state subsidised, if it means my domestic help can get to the eastern cape in 2 hours instead of 2 days SAFELY and see her grandkids,,, cool. This means I have to be paid enough to keep me here, don't let anyone fool you, we are paid well (disposable) not great , don't let anyone con you into thinking that you are overpaid, we are in a country where a huge proportion of our population are poor and should have access to cheap long haul transport,SAFE, and you are the person that can do this. If it means that you are paid a salary that keeps you and your family here so be it. I will never pretend that SAA does not have huge problems, but it will never be solved on these pages and in Africa there is a massive case for cheap state subsidised transport(SAA not being necessarily a good example, but good potential) with content crew. Anyway fluffyfan good luck. you will be missed and please don't fill these pages with vitriol about how stupid I was to stay behind and how you have the solution to all Africa's problems. Good luck my man!

[millertime]

second message in 2 days,perhaps I am addicted. Fluffyfan good luck, I know you and you will be a huge loss to our company and an asset to where ever you go. Forget the people preaching macro and micro economics (its all a paper exercise anyway, who earns more , who earns less , who pays, who cares, doesn't matter as long as u look 4ward and sort out the family). To be quite honest in my opinion we live in a country where 75% of the population earn less than R1500 a month looking after our kids and cleaning our houses, all travel should be state subsidised, if it means my domestic help can get to the eastern cape in 2 hours instead of 2 days SAFELY and see her grandkids,,, cool. This means I have to be paid enough to keep me here, don't let anyone fool you, we are paid well (disposable) not great , don't let anyone con you into thinking that you are overpaid, we are in a country where a huge proportion of our population are poor and should have access to cheap long haul transport,SAFE, and you are the person that can do this. If it means that you are paid a salary that keeps you and your family here so be it. I will never pretend that SAA does not have huge problems, but it will never be solved on these pages and in Africa there is a massive case for cheap state subsidised transport(SAA not being necessarily a good example, but good potential) with content crew. Anyway fluffyfan good luck. you will be missed and please don't fill these pages with vitriol about how stupid I was to stay behind and how you have the solution to all Africa's problems. Good luck my man!

[ByAirMail]

Millertime
Fact is that I can get cheaper tickets on privately owned carriers, so all the wasted money is not even helping us to get cheap transport for our workers.

Anyway, time to put on my Springbok jersey and open the beers (will have a Miller Lite I think ;-)

Sad thing is that this will probably be the last World Cup where we will be able to support the “BOKKE”
Yet another sign of their agenda.
And yes I do have money on the BOKKE for a final and a win, but after that……..all bets off.
Enjoy the game!!!

[millertime]

you too i got big bucks on this one.

[Avi8tor]

75% of the population earn less than R1500 a month looking after our kids and cleaning our houses, all travel should be state subsidised
I am sure that would be music to the industry's ears. I am sure staff and share holders at Comair, Link, SAX, Nationwide and 1time would be happy to get their governement cheques at the end of the month.

[Kiepie]

:ok: Fluffyfan he’s our man! Well said, sorry to see you go AS WELL!

[JetNut]

Why is it that BA and Air France insisted on operating the Concorde (at a significant loss) for 30 odd years ?

If you know the answer to that one, then you will grasp the concept of how a parastatal is actually run.

[Frogman1484]

Jetnut...let me remind you that they have finally killed off the concord due to financial reasons...so eventually the dollar still counts

[Skylion]

BA made money with Concorde because, like Air France, it was virtualy given the aircraft to save national political embarrassment. This offset its high operational , crewing and engineering costs and low utilisation. BA was highly innovative in generating additional revenue through its charters ranging from the Round the World tours to the popular round-the-bay series. Air France was much less active in generating additional revenue although it did follow some of the BA initiatives.

[Avi8tor]

Sorry guys, all wrong. Concorde served 2 purposes at BA/AF.

- Advertising. Say no more on that subject.
- I don't know for AF, but I do know for that BA used it as 1st class 'hub feed'. It helped fill VERY high yield 1st class seats to London, then people flew Concorde to NYC.

Just also a small diff from SAA, BA has been listed for YEARS. Just had to go broke twice and needed Maggie to see the light.