SAA explaining to parliament
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SAA explaining to parliament
Heard the report on radio702 around 12H30 this afternoon regarding SAA 'please explaining'
to parliament. Seems the consultancy they(SAA) hired has reported the obvious, namely, too many managers, managers earning too much, etc.The comparison is with other airlines of similar size, fleet, route network, etc. SAA had to endure critisism with regards to how SAA were screwing-up parliaments travel plans with lot luggage being mentioned. Throughout it all the one fact not mentioned, quite ironically, is how SAA pilots are raping the company with their "high" and "unreasonable" demands! Seems the pilots are way ahead of management and maybe management should do the honourable thing(What!! This is South Africa!!) Resign and let the pilots run the operation if you ever want to see profitability again! There, nailed MY colours to the mast.
to parliament. Seems the consultancy they(SAA) hired has reported the obvious, namely, too many managers, managers earning too much, etc.The comparison is with other airlines of similar size, fleet, route network, etc. SAA had to endure critisism with regards to how SAA were screwing-up parliaments travel plans with lot luggage being mentioned. Throughout it all the one fact not mentioned, quite ironically, is how SAA pilots are raping the company with their "high" and "unreasonable" demands! Seems the pilots are way ahead of management and maybe management should do the honourable thing(What!! This is South Africa!!) Resign and let the pilots run the operation if you ever want to see profitability again! There, nailed MY colours to the mast.
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Poor SAA
They are doing well!
They have a PLAN (A Pappion Plan)
They are doing all the right things to become profitable
We should all get behind them and help them out as our "National Carrier"
We should sacrifice
Let them have their way
Coleman was bad
Andre was worse
Khaya? He is our hero!!!@@@????
He can't receive criticism,
Part of the new order
Come to think of it
We are bending over and
They are behind us. lol
The pilots are way overpaid but would you give it back?
They are doing well!
They have a PLAN (A Pappion Plan)
They are doing all the right things to become profitable
We should all get behind them and help them out as our "National Carrier"
We should sacrifice
Let them have their way
Coleman was bad
Andre was worse
Khaya? He is our hero!!!@@@????
He can't receive criticism,
Part of the new order
Come to think of it
We are bending over and
They are behind us. lol
The pilots are way overpaid but would you give it back?
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Financial management may not be on the ATP syllabus but how 'good' do you have to be to run SAA? Looking at the arrogance of their current management I see little to be worried about. The pilots at least have common sense. Anyway, the actual purpose of my post was to get a rise out of Deskjockey. I have always enjoyed his posts. Very informed, reasoned and probably the only person currently in SAA management who seems to know what he is about. Unfortunately, he seemed to lose the plot in the other post regarding cuts at SAA. Come on DJ, heres your opportunity to make right with those who concede you actually know what you are talking about. Give us some gen regarding todays happenings. I, for one, sincerely hope SAA remains in business for the ever. I have no weish to see them disappear. I just feel the pilots should be taken seriously. They have a lot to offer and cannot always be wrong or at fault. Letsd get some healthy discussion going here. The company may just actually benefit from this. Im sure there are those who remember the good work done by Pine Pienaar. Gosh, I seem to recall HE actually was a pilot!
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Jamex
If SAA was run by the pilots let me assure you things would be very different, DJ the clown that he is was recently seen admonishing the pilot managers for not being at work enough....maybe because they were flying, on top of everything else they do.
SAA managemnet has consistently ignored every suggestion the pilot group has to offer, for some reason we are the enemy at SAA, maybe because we do our jobs well and are not scared to state the obvious how management is Fu
ing up at SAA, maybe because we are not scared to point out the corruption, the mismanagement, the basic lack of any sort of management skills, SAA is about jobs for buddies, being in the ANC, being a certain skin colour.....its a government employment agency, the pilot group has known this for a long time, we have let the social experiment continue, but now suddenly the government wants to know why we can not make a profit.............well here is my explanation.
Maybe the reason SAA can not make a profit is because
A) Rampant crime..........police force obviousley useless
B) No Electricity (despite some of the highest taxes in the world)
C) No Water (despite some of the highest taxes in the world)
D) No Decent Health care system (where is the tax going)
E) No Decent Educaional system.....if it was why are all the ministers kids in private Education (where is the tax going)
F) Roads falling appart (where is the tax going)
G) the Health minister had a liver transplant on tax payers money because she is a rampant alcoholic and she killed her last liver, she used her status to bypass everyone to get a new liver
H) The Chief of Police in SA has connections to organised crime
I) Robert McBride is the boss of JHB Metro Police
these are just the ones I can think of right now after 1/2 a bottle of wine
The reason SAA is falling apart is the same as above, Morons are in charge, they have stolen all the money, they are just here to see a short term profit so they can take a bonus home, if that means selling everything then so be it.
I finally give up, I have been the ultimate SAA optimist for the past couple of years, I am now searching for further employment because my current employer thinks
a) I am too highly paid (despite my salary being lower than my contemporaries)
b) I am the wrong colour ( I am white therefore I am guilty of everything)
DJ I am sure you are oh so proud of your achievemets, you guys had the potential to be a "world Airline" via SAA but you have chosen a little no name no nothing instead aka Mango......RIP SAA.
If SAA was run by the pilots let me assure you things would be very different, DJ the clown that he is was recently seen admonishing the pilot managers for not being at work enough....maybe because they were flying, on top of everything else they do.
SAA managemnet has consistently ignored every suggestion the pilot group has to offer, for some reason we are the enemy at SAA, maybe because we do our jobs well and are not scared to state the obvious how management is Fu
ing up at SAA, maybe because we are not scared to point out the corruption, the mismanagement, the basic lack of any sort of management skills, SAA is about jobs for buddies, being in the ANC, being a certain skin colour.....its a government employment agency, the pilot group has known this for a long time, we have let the social experiment continue, but now suddenly the government wants to know why we can not make a profit.............well here is my explanation.Maybe the reason SAA can not make a profit is because
A) Rampant crime..........police force obviousley useless
B) No Electricity (despite some of the highest taxes in the world)
C) No Water (despite some of the highest taxes in the world)
D) No Decent Health care system (where is the tax going)
E) No Decent Educaional system.....if it was why are all the ministers kids in private Education (where is the tax going)
F) Roads falling appart (where is the tax going)
G) the Health minister had a liver transplant on tax payers money because she is a rampant alcoholic and she killed her last liver, she used her status to bypass everyone to get a new liver
H) The Chief of Police in SA has connections to organised crime
I) Robert McBride is the boss of JHB Metro Police
these are just the ones I can think of right now after 1/2 a bottle of wine
The reason SAA is falling apart is the same as above, Morons are in charge, they have stolen all the money, they are just here to see a short term profit so they can take a bonus home, if that means selling everything then so be it.
I finally give up, I have been the ultimate SAA optimist for the past couple of years, I am now searching for further employment because my current employer thinks
a) I am too highly paid (despite my salary being lower than my contemporaries)
b) I am the wrong colour ( I am white therefore I am guilty of everything)
DJ I am sure you are oh so proud of your achievemets, you guys had the potential to be a "world Airline" via SAA but you have chosen a little no name no nothing instead aka Mango......RIP SAA.
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Well said Fluffyfan!! Good to see someone has the gumption to call it the way he sees it. As I said in my post, I would love to see SAA survive the current moronic management. Unfortunately, optimistic as I may be, I also have to be a realist. I cannot see the company surviving as things stand at present. I still believe Mango is an attempt to blow the unions off at SAA and that ultimately, should the unions or particularly the pilots, not play ball, then Mango will succeed SAA. This is nothing more than a SA attempt to do what a certain Frank Lorenzo in the US managed to do in the '80s. He managed to negotiate salary cuts with the pilot union, there was a "snap-back" clause negotiated for the end of the concession agreement. Comes the time for the airline to pay-back as per the negotiated agreement and the company declares Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and the snap-back is seen as debt which can now be written off! Pilots lose and there was nothing they could do if they still wanted a job. Fortunately, this exact scenario is not legal in SA, but look for a very similar tactic of creating perceived alternatives and getting the pilots to negotiate for their jobs instead of proper compensation. Let SAAPA be awake to ALL dirty tactics!
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Fluffyfan,
In most cases pilots do not know how to run an airline very well. Yes there are some good ones. Air Malawi and Air Seychelles are examples.
SAA had great potential but "potential" is just a word without top management being left alone and making the real tough decisions with no regards to AA. It doesn't matter what colour that top management is but the powers that be only see black. What a real fix. Khaya is inept and totally incompetent but can they come out and lump him with the white boys? You will see his imminent departure will be full of acolades.
AMEN! to the rest of your comments.
In most cases pilots do not know how to run an airline very well. Yes there are some good ones. Air Malawi and Air Seychelles are examples.
SAA had great potential but "potential" is just a word without top management being left alone and making the real tough decisions with no regards to AA. It doesn't matter what colour that top management is but the powers that be only see black. What a real fix. Khaya is inept and totally incompetent but can they come out and lump him with the white boys? You will see his imminent departure will be full of acolades.
AMEN! to the rest of your comments.
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let me guess. Both of you haven't made the SAA selection yet.
S!Playing the "I am sh
t hot cos I am in and you aint" card again.Did you ever stop to consider that maybe these guys 'used' to be in SAA as many people once were till they saw the light.
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I love how the SAA lot love to blame the 'new SA' for there troubles. I fail to see how our friend Robert Mcbride has anything to do with SAA situation.
SAA over paid and under worked. Top to bottom. Always has been, always will be. And god forbid that pilots run an airline. That is a recipe for a monumental F up.
I think your in for a nasty shock. I think you are going to to battle to find a job that pays so much, to do so little. Please feel free to browse the following:-
http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airline..._Pilot_Pay.php
Apart from the 'come to work in the chopper to save money' scheme and his poor handling of the cabin attendants strike, his is THE FIRST one that has had the balls to tackle SAA's problems head on.
The upside to this whole mess is with any luck, it will finally get the SA aviation industry onto a level playing field. Sell off SAA/SAX and let the market play out.
SAA over paid and under worked. Top to bottom. Always has been, always will be. And god forbid that pilots run an airline. That is a recipe for a monumental F up.
I finally give up, I have been the ultimate SAA optimist for the past couple of years, I am now searching for further employment because my current employer thinks
a) I am too highly paid (despite my salary being lower than my contemporaries)
a) I am too highly paid (despite my salary being lower than my contemporaries)
http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airline..._Pilot_Pay.php
Khaya is inept and totally incompetent
The upside to this whole mess is with any luck, it will finally get the SA aviation industry onto a level playing field. Sell off SAA/SAX and let the market play out.
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Actually Avi8tor, I dont think I am in for a shock, having done some research myself already and you may have heard about a big expensive study paid for by SAAPA and Audited by SAA on pilot salaries and how they compare....yes the big parity study, SAA pilots are still 30% behind there contemporaries, thats what the figures say.....not me.
However when you factor in that I have to pay for Security (security company levies etc), Schooling, medical etc you will possibly see where our money goes in this country, this dispite tax of over 40%
Really? you cant see how maybe this man got his job because of his connections in the ANC, you think maybe he is qualified to do the job........does this sound familiar?
And lets not give Khaya credit for anything, because its the consultants Seabury who have done his job for him
However when you factor in that I have to pay for Security (security company levies etc), Schooling, medical etc you will possibly see where our money goes in this country, this dispite tax of over 40%
I fail to see how our friend Robert Mcbride has anything to do with SAA situation.
And lets not give Khaya credit for anything, because its the consultants Seabury who have done his job for him
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I dont think I am in for a shock, having done some research myself already and you may have heard about a big expensive study paid for by SAAPA and Audited by SAA on pilot salaries and how they compare....yes the big parity study, SAA pilots are still 30% behind there contemporaries, thats what the figures say.....not me.
The average captain in the US majors is $173K(R1.25mil) and 79.6hrs average flying per month.* That is TOP scale!!!
SAA is a P
SS pot, loss making african airline. To compare SAA to Delta etc u would have to be mad. The bad managers at SAA that allowed the 'parity pony' should have been fired for gross stupidity.Yeah, and the problem here is you are NOT about to walk into a job at Delta etc. SAA guys are gonna have to get their heads around CX/EK or any other middle/far east salaries. Those salaries are on www.willflyforfood.cc
If anybody thinks they are gonna walk into a SAA salary at another airline, they should stop drinking.
* Info out of Professional Pilot June 2007
Last edited by Avi8tor; 12th Sep 2007 at 17:50.
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Originally Posted by fluffyfan
having done some research myself already and you may have heard about a big expensive study paid for by SAAPA and Audited by SAA on pilot salaries and how they compare....yes the big parity study, SAA pilots are still 30% behind there contemporaries, thats what the figures say.....not me.
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Originally Posted by taperlok
let me guess. Both of you haven't made the SAA selection yet.
I actually felt sorry for the poor bastards at SAA losing their jobs - but with that attitude I think you deserve to lose your house in the golf estate and your flashy BMW. Time you start slogging it out like the rest of the drivers.....you w
ker!
Last edited by reptile; 12th Sep 2007 at 18:15.
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Transformation successfully implemented. Well done.
Just a thought. If I or an organization would have been responsible for
the economic destruction of SAA we would have been convicted of
treason long ago.
Just a thought. If I or an organization would have been responsible for
the economic destruction of SAA we would have been convicted of
treason long ago.
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reptile
look in the mirror you will see a bigger tosser.
Yes some of the posts are from people who used to be at SAA. Due to their experience at SAA they got the jobs at EK etc. they all seem to forget that.
well said fluffyfan!!!
look in the mirror you will see a bigger tosser.
Yes some of the posts are from people who used to be at SAA. Due to their experience at SAA they got the jobs at EK etc. they all seem to forget that.
well said fluffyfan!!!
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look in the mirror you will see a bigger tosser.
For every 10 immature SAA captains' sons like taperlok, there is at least one nice guy at SAA. We should feel sorry for those.
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Due to their experience at SAA they got the jobs at EK etc.
If I or an organization would have been responsible for
the economic destruction of SAA we would have been convicted of
treason long ago.
the economic destruction of SAA we would have been convicted of
treason long ago.
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Avi8tor I am not quite sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet about SAA salaries? and it does not bother me too much seeing as I am busy looking for new employment, I could go to the SAAPA web site and write a 5 page response to you on how the parity agreement was calculated but to be honest I could not give a anymore, lets just say that its not just Delta that are one of the comparisons there are about 8 others as well, and they were agreed to by both the company and the union.
well yes, it is now......I wonder how that happened? but it is also the second oldest airline in the world and was once relativley big, the pilots were not always paid well, in fact they were probably the worst paid airline crew in the world prior to the 90's and once SA opened up and other countries started taking South Africans again there was a big exodus of pilots to better paid jobs, so the company had to come to the table and offer a reasonable salary base on world standards.
Let me just get your reasoning straight, SAA has been run into the ground by a succession of politically appointed 5 year wonders who had no intention of making the company health but just to make the books look good for there term of office.........so because SAA has shrunk and made a loss you think the pilots should take less pay to try and help out the poor management......oh ok, maybe the poor old Zimbabweans should pay more tax as well to help out Mugabe.
you quoted me Delta's figures....unfortunatley not an option for me, however there is BA, Virgin, a multitude of European airlines and freight operations, All Nippon.........and a host of middle Eastern and Asian Carriers, each one with better salaries (some of them tax free) than SAA.
SAA has always made a loss, so no I do not blame the loss on the 'new SA' however the new SA has never had it so good in terms of passenger numbers. I would love to see the 'New SA' succeed, but alas I just have to look North at an entire continent and wonder how long it will be before the new elite pull a Mugabe, SA is in deep trouble, the police force is a joke, illegal imigrants are streaming across the border and turning to crime, nothing is run properly anymore, try get a licence disc for your car, try get a passport, its all been Africanized and thats how the rot starts, apart from the trouble at SAA I do not see a future in this country for my children, for starters they are white and discriminated against, the government of SA sees no value in me or my children, so I feel I must move to a place that does value what I have to offer.
anymore, lets just say that its not just Delta that are one of the comparisons there are about 8 others as well, and they were agreed to by both the company and the union.
SAA is a PSS pot, loss making african airline.
Let me just get your reasoning straight, SAA has been run into the ground by a succession of politically appointed 5 year wonders who had no intention of making the company health but just to make the books look good for there term of office.........so because SAA has shrunk and made a loss you think the pilots should take less pay to try and help out the poor management......oh ok, maybe the poor old Zimbabweans should pay more tax as well to help out Mugabe.
you quoted me Delta's figures....unfortunatley not an option for me, however there is BA, Virgin, a multitude of European airlines and freight operations, All Nippon.........and a host of middle Eastern and Asian Carriers, each one with better salaries (some of them tax free) than SAA.
I love how the SAA lot love to blame the 'new SA' for there troubles.
Paxing All Over The World
Being a complete outside, but an observer of South Africa and one who made the decision not to make his adult life there ... I'm going to stick my unwanted nose into this thread. 
Can you recall the things that were said about the 'old' SAA in the 1980s ... was it any different? But, as many of you are saying - the situation is not unique to SAA.
The things that you are saying here are identical with the things the pilots and staff say about BA in PPRuNe. They are the identical to things I have heard people say about the big corporations that I have worked for across 27 years in telecommunications and IT. Big companies always create their own weather systems and someone is always going to land up on the short end. The fact that pilots are treated badly I find highly irritating for all the normal reasons (and my nephew is a commercial pilot) so I am on your side.
But, my rather gloomy personal view is that: it makes no never mind which country you are in and what the line of business is. And it is certainly true that management can be wonderful and/or stupid, irrespective of skin colour.
Can you recall the things that were said about the 'old' SAA in the 1980s ... was it any different? But, as many of you are saying - the situation is not unique to SAA.
The things that you are saying here are identical with the things the pilots and staff say about BA in PPRuNe. They are the identical to things I have heard people say about the big corporations that I have worked for across 27 years in telecommunications and IT. Big companies always create their own weather systems and someone is always going to land up on the short end. The fact that pilots are treated badly I find highly irritating for all the normal reasons (and my nephew is a commercial pilot) so I am on your side.
But, my rather gloomy personal view is that: it makes no never mind which country you are in and what the line of business is. And it is certainly true that management can be wonderful and/or stupid, irrespective of skin colour.