BA - Moving to the Right Seat

[Knee Trembler]

Hi,

I'm mid way through the BA DEP selection and, without wishing to count my chickens, am beginning to consider the reality of making the move.

At the moment I am flying left seat jet for a leasing company. Nice lifestyle, moderate workload, but pay a little below the norm and long term prospects very uncertain.

BA would be the sensible move, but I'm not sure about the long period (effectively life for me, as I am over 40) as FO.

Can anyone shed light on the culture within the company. How steep is the cockpit gradient? And would I be going to go to work every day expecting to be treated like a cadet (no disrespect intended to cadets BTW!).

Any personal experiences appreciated.

KT

[Dozza2k]

i joined BA in the RHS at 21, and was expecting to be treated, as you say, like a cadet. I wasn't. 99% of the skippers have a perfect approach to command gradiant. great people to work with.

[Knee Trembler]

Thanks Dozza, that's just what I wanted to hear :).

KT

[Von Smallhausen]

Ditto. Have been in 2.5 years. There is the odd 'charachter' as you get anywhere else but 95% of the time the flt deck atmosphere is much more relaxed than in my old charter mob.

Also there's nothing like going out for a beer with your colleague in Prague/Paris/Edinburgh on successive nights as you trapse around Europe - I can honestly say I have more of a rapport with some of the skips here after a 4 day tour than I did in a year of there-and-backs with the old lot.

Don't believe all the scare stories you hear about Nigels! Like you, I was unsure but the vast majority turned out to be complete b*******s.

[Airbrake]

I was in a similar situation to you a few years ago and was fortunate to be offered a job. However, reality gradually dawned that I would eventually get bored doing long haul with 10 years+ to a command that I already had in the short haul world.
It is without doubt a good company with plenty of aircraft types and opportunities but you will be in the bottom half of seniority lists for a large percentage of your time there. It is a tough choice but what finnally swung it for me was doing the pension sums using X years at BA as Fo/Capt and X years at my current job as a Capt. The figures will only ever be approximate but will help with your decision.

[Bellerophon]

Knee Trembler

I'm probably not the right person to be replying to your post - as I am a long time Capt with BA - and you would likely be better answered by a newish F/O - but, for what they are worth, here are my observations:



I've flown with a lot of co-pilots who have had commands in other airlines or the military, and all of them seem to have settled back easily in the RHS without experiencing (or causing!) any problems.


On the B747, I've flown with several co-pilots who have had commands on other aircraft types in BA, and bid away for the RHS on the B747, for their own reasons.


On another BA aircraft type I flew, around one third of the F/Os had been Captains on other BA aircraft.


None of which suggests that there is a perceived problem with making the move from LHS to RHS, if that is what suits you.


I'd like to think that, with the advent of more enlightened flight deck management, the command gradient is now a lot lower than in the past for any pilot, let alone one with your previous experience.


A longhaul command may well (who knows!) be 12-15-17 years away for you, but I doubt a shorthaul command will take quite that long, and with the recent increase in mandatory retirement age to 65 (!), you will get there eventually.


I did over 20 years to my first command, and am still glad I joined.


I've heard many F/Os grumble about lots of things, but not often about how they were treated by their Captains!


So, whilst I doubt you will experience any particular problems in moving to the RHS in BA - in fact I don't think this will be much of a problem for you at all - I would advise you to think very carefully about the overall package, and how other factors, mainly workload and lifestyle, will change with a move to BA.

You will be working hard, and, to start with, at the bottom of the bidline, and only you can decide whether the improvement in long term job security and salary makes the move worthwhile.

I hope the remainder of the selection goes well for you, and I look forward to flying with you. Best of Luck in whatever you decide.


Regards

Bellerophon

[Knee Trembler]

Thanks to everyone for taking the trouble to reply :).

Now I just have to knuckle down and get through the sim!

Best Wishes,

KT

[mjenkinsblackdog1]

I wouldnt bother with Ba.
It isnt the company it was compared to the 80s.
Final salary pension has gone.
Willie and his merry bunch of accountants are slowly Butchering it.
GO EXPAT.:ok:

[acbus1]

It isnt the company it was compared to the 80s
At least it still exists.

In comparison, failed companies are beyond butchery, don't have terribly attractive salary scales and the pension schemes are somewhat unappealing.

[ETOPS]

Knee Trembler

Just to echo my colleague Bellerophon the culture in BA is that co-pilots are actually "Captains in waiting". That's why all P2s are type rated and checked to P1 standard and all flying is "leg for leg". The teamwork that this engenders is one of the big plus points for working for BA. Cockpit relations are generally relaxed and most :) Captains utilise the knowledge and skills that the co-pilots bring. I actually think longhaul P2s withy previous command experience are a godsend in multi crew (heavy) situations.

You will fit in just fine..............

[Airbrake]

ETOPS, every airline in the UK works on the principle of "Captains in waiting" so BA is not unique in that aspect.
Knee Tremblers problem I suspect will hinge around life style issues and of course cash in the bank each month and pension values. Job satisfaction would be better in the LHS but this is not really about which side of the aircraft you sit on, more the whole package on offer up to retirement compared to staying put or comparing other companies.

As I mentioned earlier the loss of the final salary pension was the deal breaker for me, and I think many others in similar circumstances.

[dlav]

Could somebody please be kind enough to give a typical roster for a brand new FO (SSP) for the Airbus?

Literally just got the phone call! :)

[mjenkinsblackdog1]

Acbus,
Yes,it still remains thanks to 150 million from Maggie Thatcher.
The rest remains.:ok:

[Hand Solo]

There are still airlines in the UK where the FO is not permitted to taxy the aircraft, start the engines or fly non-precision approaches. Not exactly what I'd call a "captain in waiting" role.

[spoilers yellow]

....and an awful lot where the F/O cant call stop on take off to name another. or carry out the stop for that matter.

and as for example of an airbus roster, being junior you can expect to be on a blind line, this is when the company will construct your roster with work that no one else has bid for, this isnt always undesirable work.
It will probably mean working every weekend, and will be a mix of the same sort of work that any one else will get, you just won't be able to choose what it is and when you do it. I imagine you will fly around 80hrs a month and will consist of early/late 2, 3, 4 day multi sector trips all over europe in some great cities and the odd longer dsy trip. Sorry thats all a bit vague, sure a current airbus driver will help you a bit more.

[dlav]

Many thanks spoilers yellow. Any more information greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[Airbrake]

Hand Solo and Spoilers, every company has different SOPS regarding what an FO can and cannot do. I personally think a certain experience level works well. Below it you have some restrictions above it you don't. I am sure we could also have a healthy debate concerning monitored approaches.

There is more than one way to operate an aircraft and BA do not have a monopoly on good ideas and practices!

[Tandemrotor]

Had to laugh at mjenkinsblackdog1, saying BA "isn't the company it was in the 80s"!

And then saying "GO EXPAT"!

:} :} :}

[mjenkinsblackdog1]

Tandem,
Glad you found it so funny.
DIPSTICK:ok:

[Tandemrotor]

mjenkinsblackdog1

If you 'don't earn anywhere near £100k'

And you think:

The only way to beat the system is to go either expat or get a VVIP job.

Then you know nothing about BA.

There are pilots in BA earning £200k! Not many admittedly, but comfortably exceeding £100k is not unusual.

How were those T&Cs with, "Jade Cargo". :E

GO EXPAT?

Now who's the DIPSTICK?:ok:

[mjenkinsblackdog1]

Look you MORON,
We are dealing with young laddies just moving to the righthand seat.
Not Old Nigels who joined in the 80s.
Christ you really are F*****g DENSE.:ok:

[Stand31]

Mental note to self: don't go expat!!

[EK Pilot]

Go Expat? Been there, done it. Glad I'm back. Mental note to self, don't do it again.

Good luck with whatever decsion you make Knee Trembler, I just hope that characters such as mjenkinsblackdog1 do not ruin your day in the flight deck.

(Ex) Ex Pilot

[Hand Solo]

I'd second that! Ignore jenkinsblackdog, there are miserable grumblers in every airline who'll always find something to complain about. Personally I've looked at the numbers going expat and it didn't add up for me after I'd done about 5 years in BA, the gross (tax-free) salary at EK was less than I was earning net in the UK!

[Tandemrotor]

mjenkinsblackdog1

The perfect example of why you have had to flee abroad to ply your trade!

No wonder you can't find anyone at home to employ you!

Shame. You might earn more here!

:}:}:}

[dlav]

Just wondering what position you would have to be in to be a pilot and earn 200K with BA? Just curious thats all :ok:

Cheers

dlav

[Hand Solo]

Senior training captain and overtime wh0re.

[ChocksAwayUK]

And probably on wife no.3 to support.

[dlav]

I'll be doing well to even find wife no.1! :}

[Tandemrotor]

Actually, in at least one case, it is still wifey numero uno. :D

[JW411]

mjenkinsblackdog1:

My wife has just been on e-bay (again) and has found a pristine set of Tandemrotor/Hand Solo bookends on offer. They come with a completely genuine pink spectacles overview of the future of UK aviation and I don't think you can afford to be without one of these desirable items.

The highest bid so far is €13.97 so perhaps you could surprise your wife with this exclusive gift?

[Hand Solo]

Of course the future is so much rosier in the middle or far east with there complete absence of employment protection laws. After all you never see anyone on Pprune complaining about being stiffed by Emirates or Etihad, or griping about how bad things have become at Cathay. Singapore or Korean? Models of expatriate happiness! Perhaps the rose tint you are seeing is through your glasses? Must make your doomsday prophecies much easier to write.

[No longer ATC]

My other half is a senior 744 skipper, and earns nowhere near 200k! And as for overtime, he works so hard already he has no time spare to do extra work !!!

[Tandemrotor]

Then perhaps you should introduce yourself to the individual Hand Solo mentioned.
I feel sure your "other half" will know who is being spoken of!

Are you saying your "other half" isn't

comfortably exceeding £100k?

No, obviously not!]

JW411, since you clearly know nothing of BA, perhaps you should defer??
Have either of us said anything that you know to be incorrect?

Didn't think so! :E

Keep those jamjars on my friend. Must help your illusion of superiority.

[Angryfool]

Wow

There are pilots in BA earning £200k! Not many admittedly, but comfortably exceeding £100k is not unusual.


As stated before, £200k would have to be a very senior long haul trainer and a lot of overtime without a life outside work. I wouldn't say it was the norm would you? Perhaps in the top 0.25% at a guess, not really representative.

Knee Trembler

If you decide to chose BA there will be certain benifits, but if pay is a big issue then there are better opportunities out there. What you will get is a nice flight deck environment, a stable roster and good benifits. Time to command could be between 8-15 years depending upon various scenarios such as expansion and part-time opportunities. The pension is not great, but at least you know that when you join.

Chatting to an interviewer the other day; his opinion is that most people chose BA or Virgin, a few Easy.

Best of luck

[mjenkinsblackdog1]

Nice one Angry.:D

[hunterboy]

For those people thinking of BA, I would suggest joining BALPA and having a look at the comparative payscales on the website. It lists all of the paypoints. I would have to agree with previous posters in that any Long Haul Captain in BA is on well over 100K, and I would venture to guess over 125K, even without overtime. Many of the crew live abroad with all of the "benefits" that entails. The nice thing is that there are always opportunities for overtime if that is what floats your boat. However, most of us are trying to do the minimum and try and get the work/life balance right.

[mjenkinsblackdog1]

Try the T and G.
Balpa arent worth it.:ok:

[MrBernoulli]

Knee T,

I joined BA as a long-haul DEP in my 40s, a couple of years ago, having finished my mil career as a 4-jet captain. No big deal at all. The technology leap was a big one but I am happy with my lot as an FO.

Dip your toes in the water. BA is still the only outfit here with no bond! You have nothing to lose!

[Cuban_8]

Hi,

I would have to second the general sentiment here about life in the RHS in BA. Generally a great bunch of people and very relaxed, but professional. I'm more than happy :)

With regards to remuneration, I would say 75%+ of full time BA skippers would be earning more than £100k. Pay point 24 longhaul basic is now something like £140k. Add a 22.5% top up for trainers, then add allowances. So a pay point 24 longhaul training Capt, without overtime, would be grossing around £180k......... Can't imagine that there are too many airlines in the world paying more?!

Regards,

Cuban_8

[Angryfool]

K T

In direct response to some of your questions:

BA would be the sensible move, but I'm not sure about the long period (effectively life for me, as I am over 40) as FO.

The maximum retirement age is now 65, so if you're mid forties then you will have say 20 years in the airline. Difficult to say, but are you likely to get a long haul command? Is this what you would like or would you be happy to stay shorthaul and pick up a command earlier?
If I were to give a prediction, a shorthaul command is more than likely in your time period, not too sure about a longhaul command though, depends on the level of expansion versus stagnation in pilot workforce.

Nice lifestyle, moderate workload, but pay a little below the norm and long term prospects very uncertain.

If you're at LGW, not a great bidding system so not much control over your lifestyle. LHR much better control, work very hard on shorthaul due to the pain of operating in and out of LHR. A modification to our bidline system to be very shortly voted through, I may stand to be corrected, which in theory will bring some added benifits to bidding and hence lifestyle.

[Witraz]

I joined BA some 18 years ago as a DEP, ex self improver light turbo-props and B737 holiday charter.. Numerous old (well they seemed old to me at the time) captains told me how they enjoy the variety and experience the DEP pilots brought to the company. I am now a B777 captain and am finding the same thing. Over 200 DEP’s have joined the fleet in the last few years, with a large cross section of age and experience. So far of these pilots I have flown with all seem to be enjoying their new careers. With 43 aircraft and more on order,there is good variety. I have enjoyed flying with these DEP's and as they have experienced life outside BA, tend to moan very little about their new life style. I cannot speak for short haul as I have only flown long haul. No airline is perfect, being human, we all enjoy a good moan from time to time but to date BA has been good to me in many ways.

[arem]

Some of us were in BA were earning that 10 years ago, so its taken a long time to catch up:D:D:D

[Angryfool]

Pressman

Guys ,

Anyone got the latest on BAs plans for open skies flights , going for assessment soon and would be interested in getting on the 757 fleet to work out of Paris or BRU , wht are the chances of it .

Thx

See the previous threads on this, it aint going to happen with mainline BA pilots!! Well not factually correct as it hasn't happened yet, just a rumour, before rainboe comes on here again and corrects me. By all means ask at the assessment, and be prepared for a very vague answer.

[FlyingOW]

Gentlemen,

Could any one confirm how much a DEP is making nowadays? What fleet could one expect to join as such (no Airbus, just wide body MD and Boeing, MH-LH experience, 763ER current type). Am looking to move from current commpany and want to make sure the numbers make sense for the family. Thank you in advance.

OW

[120class]

Try:

www.ppjn.com (http://www.ppjn.com)

They have reasonably good data on European airlines.

Cheers

[FlyingOW]

Hi,

I had already checked on PJN, however it does not mention payscale for a new joiner with experience, as in a non-cadet.


FO top £95 757 27/Jan/05
FO baseCadet entry base is now £28,160 12/Aug/06


Was just wondering what one could expect to be earning in year one and on what fleet. Any chance of the 772 for example? (4 on order) or would one join on their current type?

Thanks again,

OW

[wobble2plank]

DEP basic is about £44k-£45k per annum with flying pay etc on top.

You can realistically expect to make between £10k-£15k in extra pay per year depending on how much you work.

If you have a mil pension this is quite an attractive package.

DEP on 777 is not happening at the moment as there is enough internal movement.

hope that helps

W2P

[CanAV8R]

I am DEP year 2 and take home 3500-4500 a month depending on days off/holidays and overtime. It goes up every year (for now) and BALPA has a major influence within the airline. A good reason in itself to join.


Good luck.


:ok:

[FlyingOW]

W2P, CanAV8R,

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Cheers,

OW

[MorningGlory]

So then Knee Trembler, did you get into BA? I too am in the same position, current LHS short haul, will be making a move east in the flight deck soon.. Same concerns as you mentioned, just wondering what you decided.

:cool:

[747-436]

Anyone got the latest on BAs plans for open skies flights , going for assessment soon and would be interested in getting on the 757 fleet to work out of Paris or BRU , wht are the chances of it

http://www.projectlauren.co.uk/


Ad in flight international apprently.

[kierandee]

quick question dozza,

was BA your first job then? i.e. they took you on at 21 fresh out of qualifying?

cheers, kieran

[Knee Trembler]

Morning Glory,

See my entry at the end of:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147292

Do I luk bovvered:rolleyes:.
KT

[CV Donator]

Morning Glory could you check your PMs, thanks.

[MrBernoulli]

KT,

Fingers crosse and all! Do NOT give up hope yet - from the mouth of one of ther horses (if you get my drift), the sim ride is almost ALL about CRM. As long as you and your buddy co-operated well, helped keep each other safe then you're in with a chance. Don't read anything into the length of time it takes to hear anything either. Patience.

[Knee Trembler]

Thanks Mr B, and others who have issued similar reassuring words. Time will no doubt tell and I shall, of course, let you know the outcome.

KT

[Shaka Zulu]

To think that I've actually flown many-a-time with mjenkinsblackdog1 +
being a BA 777FO now.

What are the odds ;)

[WTB]

Can anyone advise what the chances are of being offered a longhaul position on any fleet are? B747-400 / B777 or B757/767?

[badairsucker]

I know BA are looking to take guys on for their holding pool, but will the B777 be an option in the near future. I am currently flying the 777 with CX.

Anyone care to share with me what the wages are like for a DEP on to the 777. Thanks.

[Knee Trembler]

The situation, as explained to us three days ago, is that recruitment depends slightly on background and experience but mainly on BA's requirements. Apparently, most can expect A320 LHR with a small chance B757/767. Otherwise B737 LGW.

Someone on the inside can no doubt correct / elaborate on this.

Re salary. As always, see www.ppjn.com or elsewhere in this forum. It's been reasonably well covered, but ball-park seems to be £45k + £10-15k allowances.

KT

[badairsucker]

Thanks Knee.

[wobble2plank]

Recruitment has been heavy on the Bus lately, with the Bus taking over from the FLUF down at LGW most DEP's can expect that.

777 has gone VERY senior as a fleet, don't know if that's due to an anticipated dual 777/787 rating as the cockpits are compatible.

There is a fleet swap window running at the moment with lots of people bidding off of the SH roster onto the LH. That should cover LH manning requirements for quite some time I would think.

As to previous type qualifications I don't know where you stand with having the 777 already. You can but ask!

If you DO get DEP 777, expect to be on blind lines, i.e. work allocated to you and every weekend flying, for a very long time.

[overstress]

As to previous type qualifications I don't know where you stand with having the 777 already. You can but ask!

Going by my own experience, it won't make a scrap of difference what type you have on your licence.

You have to be prepared to take anything - I would expect the A320 LHR as anyone with any seniority is bidding off it....

[747-436]

As overstress says the type rating you have doesn't make a difference at BA in most cases. I know of A320 rated FO's who have gone to the 777 even though they have been needing people for the A320 at the same time.
Would seem to make sense to put A320 people on the A320 to save training costs but I don't know how BA works out who goes where etc!

[overstress]

747-436, you're not a BA pilot so why bother to come on here to tell us that you don't know anything?! :confused::confused:

Fleet requirements change all the time. New entrants will go to wherever the company needs them, regardless of type rating. They will do the entire sim course even if going to the type they are rated on.

[MorningGlory]

KT have you made your decision yet? Interested as I'm in the same pos.. :8

[Knee Trembler]

Hi Morning,

Still no result from the sim ride yet,so still no decision to be made. Will PM you when I find out!

KT

[bluepilot]

No news yet KT?

[Knee Trembler]

No. Still waiting. Not sure what can be taking SO long :ooh: .