Emirates: Basings

[A. Le Rhone]

Apologies if this thread has already been aired and done to death!

I understand this was analysed some time ago but dropped due to concern by EK management that they would come under the auspices of local industrial laws and trades union.

Surely however now, with EK ordering ever-increasing aircraft numbers and already having recruitment difficulties (this will only be compounded by the now almost critical aircrew shortage), Emirates would benefit hugely by opening say 3 or 4 overseas crew basings?

For example, setting up base in say London, Jo'burg, Melbourne/Sydney and New York. Almost overnight, highly-qualified crew who previously would not even consider EK would be sorely tempted. This is by no means a slur on Dubai, but I understand from the dissatisfaction aired by many crews, they are not enraptured about living in a desert. I am in Hong Kong and it is also a decreasingly popular place to live.

The main issue would then be who gets the bases? New joiners? Those in order of seniority? DEC's?

Anyhow, just wondering to what degree this is inevitable and whether it would be a better alternative to say the likes of Korean who woke up early to the requirement to base people where they wanted?

[Vorsicht]

Long Range Eddy to recent group of pilots

"EK will never do anything to facilitate pilots trying to create a commuting roster and there will never be basings"

..................or words to that effect.

V

[helen-damnation]

As has been said in other posts, the situation last year was that only people with 7 years in the company would be eligible, thus ensuring you were properly lobotimised and indoctrinated :8

I suspect that any attempt to offer basings to new joiners would cost the company too much, having already admitted that DECs were not a good thing.

5 years ago this was the job to come to. Now, the reputation is sullied, as seen on various threads about 'should I come'. Entry requirements have changed and we still need large numbers every year.

Having said all that, at the moment basings are a definite 'NO', but who knows what the future holds.

[fly nice]

quote:
As has been said in other posts, the situation last year was that only people with 7 years in the company would be eligible

A 7 year captain taking an FO job with local tax implications just to get a basing? :rolleyes:

[Gillegan]

"EK will never do anything to facilitate pilots trying to create a commuting roster and there will never be basings"

..................or words to that effect.

V
I think that I was at that meeting and if you substitute won't for never, it might be more accurate. Tim Clark has openly stated numerous times that there won't be basings on his watch. (At least you can't accuse him of sending mixed signals) More to the point; Tim Clark won't be here forever. If the market for pilots demands basings, you might see them in the distant future but not anytime soon.

[anthonny]

Unfortunatly there are many pilots leaving emirates. I been with Emirates for about 7 years. At the moment Capt on the A 330- A 340 fleet. I have been in bigger airlines and I never have seen nothing like emirates.. The problem at emirates is the big group of bad apples running the companny. For example. on the Airbus program we have a large number of bad apples, people with no eperience at all and little mafia's group. Most of the time they enjoy harrasing people instead of doing the job in a profesional way..Thanks Lord I will be leaving next mont to a better Flying job. I feel sorry for the rest of the people... In good airlines accross Europe an the US you do not see this.

[TangoUniform]

H&D, Ok, I am confused. If it is stated that under no circumstances will there ever be out bases (or words to that affect), then where do you come up with the 7 year deal? Why would anyone in charge say no basings, but then say, you have to be here 7 years in order to be eligible?

Here we go again with the admitting DECs were a huge mistake. Better check the latest seniority listings and see that DECs are still coming. Certainly not in the amount as a year ago, but if it was such an admitted disaster (by whom, by the way, and when was it announced), I would assume that all DEC positions would be shut down.

I just love these, factoids by those i"n the know".:) Just asking the questions, no agenda.

[A. Le Rhone]

Thanks for the replies.

Surely though money is the only factor.

If Emirates is: a) losing pilots b) cant employ sufficient crews to replace those leaving let alone crew-up for expansion, c) facing a hitherto unknown global shortage of aircrews and d) seeing a more discerning group of aircrew who do not wish to have families or themselves live in Dubai, then something has to give.

Tim Clarke may have made his comments some time ago but things have changed - and drastically. DEC's were the tip of the iceberg.

Parking A380s and 777s against the fence is more expensive than basing pilots and paying them more. Unless EK plans to lease out it's aircraft purchases to other airlines they will need to offer better T&C to thier aircrew and basings would be probably No 1 on the list.

[Ghostflyer]

Amazing the utter crap that gets spoken. I always wonder what the agendas of the authors are. There was the if we whinge DECs will be cancelled, if we whinge we'll stop people coming and get a payrise and then we had the real whingers that probably had valid reasons.

Having spoken to most of the guys that have left, they have almost universally left not because of Ek but because of Dubai. There are a couple of guys that I know that have gone back to Virgin pissed off at EK but most that have left would have stayed if they could have either commuted or based.

Pretty good first post. big group of bad apples running the compannyI don't think that is even close to the truth. The problem with EK management is that they have expanded so rapidly that a lot of managers have gone on past their level of competence. In addition there is the perception that there seems to be delegation of responsibility from the very top without the authority to fix it.

What are my guesses for the future:
1. The guy at the top will eventually go and then there will be a change in ethos.
2. They will recruit lower experienced guys to fill the seats
3. They might go for a payrise (at last resort) to attract experience (DECs again?).
4. WHen the guy at the top has gone all the options: jumpseats, basings and commuting will be back on the table.

So there you go, my agenda is that I'd like EK to succeed but I wouldn't say no to a payrise and I'd like more people to come so we all have to work less. EK will always do the minimum necessary and will be penny wise and pound foolish but as the jump into the big airline league they'll end up just like all the rest.

Ghost

[TangoUniform]

I don't think that is even close to the truth. The problem with EK management is that they have expanded so rapidly that a lot of managers have gone on past their level of competence. In addition there is the perception that there seems to be delegation of responsibility from the very top without the authority to fix it.

It's called the "Peter Principle". Many times managers rise to their level of incompetence. They do a good job, getting position raises until they no longer can do their job in an adequate manner. Thus many positions are manned by those who can't do that particular job. EK?

[kingpost]

How do you think the dynamics will change if Emirates lists itself on the stock market, TC will then be accountable to many shareholders, good or bad.......Give it time, the market will determine your fate.

[Keith Discovering]

"Tim Clark won't be here forever"...........

Mmmmm, what about his predecessor then? My forecast is TC will be here till he pops his clogs. Retire? After running a Company for many years, I can't see him sipping G&T's in Malaga. He'll be here for many years to come yet, so please get real about basings.

As for shortage of pilots; yes there is, but wait till they open up the gates allowing FO's to go Direct onto the A380. There won't be a shortage then...

Only my guess though!

[helen-damnation]

Tango Uniform

The 'Fleet' took a proposal to senior management last year and part of the deal that was discussed was that you would have to have 7 years in the company. I understand it was even approved by AAR but was ditched by TC or senior level.:ugh:

I believe the quote about DECs came from recruitment but I stand to be corrected. As you say, hasn't stopped them from coming.

fly nice

Who said anything about having to be an F/O?:confused:

h-d

[nolimitholdem]

I don't know what the big fuss about basings is all about. Why would anyone want to live anywhere other than Dubai? Haven't you guys seen the recruitment DVD? Dubai is amazing!!

:=

[ShockWave]

Good post Ghostflyer, I agree entirely.
Also... Nearly every guy I have spoken with who has resigned to go elsewhere has said he would love to continue working for Emirates if he could be based in his home country. The main reason for leaving is because they get sick of Dubai, then you add the problems we all face while working for Emirates and it becomes too much for some.
In the end people just want to go home where they hope things will be as they imagine them to be.

[Andu]

A lot of inaccuracies on this thread, but I believe (and in my own case KNOW) the post immediately above this one is absolutely correct.

[MR8]

Although a lot of people think that EK is loosing pilots faster then it can attract them, it's just untrue. Have a look at the senioritylist. About three years ago, we had 1000 pilots, now we are at around 1800. Also, the guys who joined 3 years ago are now around place 900 opn the list, so we lost around 100 'senior' pilots over 3 years, that's 33/year, which is overall less then 3 percent.

The crewing will be a problem in the next few years, but even here are some easy solutions. Like someone mentioned before, the A380 F/O position will attract quite a few guys. Also, I think EK should introduce second officers for the cruise part of our long haul flights. Especially with that new burn-out rule for the augmenting guys... You can get 2nd officers with 2000 hours, and upgrade them when they have 4000hrs. A lot of people would take this offer to secure their place on the seniority list.

One of the other 'issues' for the future will be the upgrade positions on the A380. According to the current rules, A380 F/O's will upgrade on the A380. What about the guys with higher seniority who are flying the A330/340's? Wouldn't it make more sense to upgrade on the A330, and overflow to the A380?

MR8

[GMDS]

Wouldn't it make more sense...

Hey MR8, haven't we been here long enough not to ask such questions??

Allthough i have to admit that i am still astonished that concerning recruiting, retaining, promoting and training good candidates EK stubbornly goes the more expensive and arduous way. There must be another reason than the bean counter's shortsightedness and TC's hatred.
I have no explanation.

[Arctaurus]

Having left EK very recently, I conveyed much the same sentiments described - ie the job is OK, but DXB is the pits.

At the exit interview, lots of "yes, yes, we agree..." but no way around the fact that the only pilot base will be DXB. :ugh:

[Trader]

Well, there is a solution if EK's fear is pilots unionizing at the bases or having to sign foreign contracts. Simply hire pilots for Dubai only but allow pairings to be built from 'outstation bases'.

All pilots would be under a UAE contract, would be paid EXACTLY the same but with a seniority bid could start all blocks from another city.

[Yousaf]

EK Management sucks!

Fleet is busy with petty politics, HR is sleeping and Management are all old farts worrying about their own superannuation and salary increases. Every one knows that basings are the future wonder why management are closed to this idea. Who wouldnt want to go home every day?

[FlyingCroc]

will be basings in Europe or the USA. Look at the Asian carriers, even the Indians understand this. Nobody wants to live in the sandpit if they don't have to. EK will offer basings before the aircraft will be parked. :}

[Jackson Bombay]

The only thing that matters to Ek is Money.
If it becomes cheaper to base people then it will happen.
If it's not cheaper then it will not happen.

[FlyingCroc]

It cannot be cheaper to pay for business tickets home and loosing seat revenue. I think at the moment there are still enough pilots willing to move to the pit.

[CaptainProp]

Another aspect on basing vs no basing is - Do they want you to bring your money out of the UAE and spend them elsewhere? I think not. At the moment they could prob up your pay to "sort out" recruitment problems, knowing that if you make more, you will spend more... In DXB that is. Its all a great circle - they pay you, you spend it on their house, schools, restaurants, shops etc etc. Basing will be the ABSOLUTE last resort for them if you ask me.
Good luck to all!
/CP

[Wiley]

It cannot be cheaper to pay for business tickets home and losing seat revenue.With so much of EK flying now ULH, it would be a simple matter to build two dovetailing rosters that had Pilot 'A' flying a service into the port where Pilot 'B', the other half of the dovetailing roster takes it on back to Dubai.

I don't mean he takes over the same flight that day, but the same flight the next day that the incoming pilot would have done if he was on a standard roster. Reserve cover could be easily provided if part of the deal was that Pilot 'A' would have to take the flight out if Pilot 'B' goes sick.

Just like women pilots and pilots with no jet time now being acceptable to EK where once they weren't, basings or rosters written around a remote base will happen eventually - but only when it is forced on them and they see no other way to fill seats at the pointy end.

In the meantime, CaptProp's comment is spot on - the whole object of the exercise is that we pour as much as possible (and more) of what they pay us back into Dubai Inc. That is the reason expats were allowed to buy real estate in the UAE - and look how successful that has been so far, both for Dubai Inc. and many of the pilots who got into the Dubai RE market early.

If basings or pseudo basings ever do come to pass, perhaps one way they could introduce it and not open the proverbial floodgates would be to limit such basings to pilots who had been in the company for 'n' years (say 10?).
I appreciate that this would cut the FOs out of the equation, but at least in the initial stages of any such scheme, I don't think the FOs could expect to be included, if only for the reason given by CaptProp.

There's hope something like this may come to pass, for the EK pilot group, as much as it might have grown, is becomeing a smaller and smaller part of the expat population in Dubai. I see in an article in the Melbourne Age that after the enormous expansion in Dubai over the last few years, the percentage of the Dubai population made up of UAE Nationals has now dropped to 3%, where the overall UAE figure is something under 20%. (It was around 18% in Dubai ten years ago.)

The whole article might be of interest to some: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/10/04/1191091278406.html

[fatbus]

If, and thats a big IF, they got really hard up to get pilots basings might help. But it would make sence to have FO basings only and all upgrades in DXB that way you would fix the recruiting and just piss off the Captains you were going to loose anyways. Im just waiting for the next better offer and EK basings might not be the better offer

[Aussie]

Gday mate,


you mentioned that they are now looking at women pilots along with pilots with nil jet time... i thought that 2000hr jet is still a req?

[EGGW]

Answer on the Portal, under 2007 Rumour Buster. Been revamped along with most of the Portal.

EGGW.

[GoreTex]

Prop,
I think they dont give a toss if we pilots spend our money in dubai, they are so loaded with money, they dont need our peanuts, the money 1800 pilots earn is nothing compared with what they spend on a lazy afternoon.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Captain Props suggestion that it is about keeping the cashflow inside Dubai is feasible but when you look at the scale of business in the UAE and particularly Dubai your salaries totalled up equal a drop in the ocean??

Plus the fact that the Dubai royal family is investing heavily in business outside the UAE and shifting money of it's own abroad. So perhaps keeping the money inside Dubai insn't the real reason?

Blue Foot

[theidler]

I'm with Captain Prop. The Rulers like the money-go-round, even if it's relatively small sums.
If money is spent abroad by the workers it never comes back, but money that Dubai invests offshore does come back.
Standby for no basings.