Landing

[GeorgEGNT]

Grrr ... lol Anyone got any tips for a lad in the circuit at Newcastle (VERY expensive lol) who constantly flares too early resulting in hard landings. My instructor has tried the map infront of me so stop me looking directly ahead and to encourage looking around the side of the panel for better views. Also the holding his hands infront of the yoke to stop me pulling back but when he stops I go back to sh*ting myself when the ground comes up lol. Any advice guys? (I'm flying the PA28-131 if that helps)

[AndyCirl]

You have to get a picture in your head of when is the right time to flare. Dont worry, one day it will just "click" with you and you'll never have a problem with it again.

[Caudillo]

Hey GeorgEGNT - I'm not an instructor but I'll give this a bash, it's worked on everything I've flown so far - although I doubt I can tell you anything your instructor hasn't already.

It's interesting you mention the bricking yourself and the ground coming up in the same sentence. My guess is that you're getting a ground rush - essentially, and you know this better than I do, you're looking at the concrete rushing up at you, self preservation kicks in, and you yank back. It is possible to land this way - and to do so very nicely, but it's not as reliable as other methods.

Try to think about it this way. You are descending towards the runway. Your PA28 is going both forwards and downwards right? Look at it from the side. It's a combination of going sideways and downways - ie diagonally down.
So, we're going forward, and we're going down. You're looking at the runway. It's getting bigger - and hopefully that's all, you're maintaining the picture, its not moving around place, just getting bigger. Right now you're taking in both aspects - the going forward and the going down. For landing at this stage, we need to start thinking about the up-down bit rather than the back-forward bit.

Your prop is taking you forward, we can forget about it at about the point your instructor has taught you to reduce the power and begin pulling back.
If you look down at the concrete now - you'll be trying to take in both aspects - that you're going forward and down. You're giving yourself too much work. You need to take a leap of faith here. You're walking with your girlfriend in the street and the girl in front has the most amazing ass - you dont want her to catch you looking, you drag your eyes away.

Don't look there and don't look at the ground. Take your eyes and force them to look up. You're landing and you shouldn't look down? I know, but you've got to stop youself.

As your instructor will have told you - look ahead at the end of the runway. This way all you're going to know about, and all you'll be able to influence at this stage of your learning, is the up-down bit - and that's what landing essentially is. You'll see how quickly the PA28 is sinking to the ground this way, and that's all you need to know for now. It's a big difference, sinking is much nicer than hurtling.

And that's it. Self preservation'll kick in again, if you see the horizon rising you'll pull back.. you know what to do. But it's gentler, more distant and a lot easier than trying to judge this from looking down and directly ahead. Leap of faith, remember. Uncomfortable at first, but it's the way to go IMHO.
Best of luck! ;)

[gingernut]

found these replies quite useful, had me own hair back then...http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42711

[GeorgEGNT]

"My guess is that you're getting a ground rush - essentially, and you know this better than I do, you're looking at the concrete rushing up at you, self preservation kicks in, and you yank back."

You've hit the nail on the head there pal, really good respones and thanks for your advice Caudillo I'll keep that in mind when I fly next. I think it really is going to be a case of doing it against all my instincts lol and actually forcing myself to do it. Fight the fear lol thank you and happy landings!

[digital.poet]

GeorgEGNT,

I had the exact same problem for a couple of lessons. The trick for me was when my instructor told me to look down at the end of the runway. It gives you a much better perspective as to what height you are at. When I was trying to look at my touchdown point it gave me the impression that I was lower than I really was, I would flare too early, lost lots of speed and dump it down from 20 feet. Not so good for the undercarriage :).

Started looking down the end of the runway and huge difference, had a couple of landings where I wasn't even sure we had actually touched down :). Give it a shot.

[mstram]

If you're flaring too early, there are a few good tips and drills you can do with your instructor.

1) Practice doing "soft field landings", or a modification of one. Have you been taught them yet? If not, ask your instructor about them. The main thing in s.f. landing is that you keep a trickle of power on right down to the touchdown.

With a trickle of power or .. a bit more than power than that, you just keep flying the plane along the runway lower and lower until ... well you land.

The same principle is used for normal landings (power to idle at threshold).
(For light prop airplanes anyway ... which is what we're talking about here).

While doing the s.f. landings, pay attention the "sight picture" of what "100Ft, 50ft ." above the ground looks like. Next time you takeoff, also try to be aware of the same sight picture ... or have your instructor do the takeoff, while you just watch how the surrounding picture changes.

A great analogy an instructor showed me, is ... : stand up beside a table top, then gradually sink / squat down while lookiing at the table top and observe how it "flattens out" as you get lower. Same thing happens while descending in a plane.

2) Similar to the s.f. landings, is to just descend and then fly along the runway at normal cruise power at ~10-50 feet up to, get accustomed to the sight picture. If you get down to around ~5 feet you can just convert that to a landing by reducing the power to idle.

The main thing about the flare is that you have to react to the current sink rate of the plane. Initially, you just want to level off the plane from it's nose down attitude. That will greatly reduce the sink rate. From there, pay attention to the sink rate and your AIR SPEED and your height above the ground. As the plane wants to sink, *gently* counter-act the sinking with more nose up ... with the maximum being ~ the nose of the airplane on the end of the runway ... very much ...if not identical to how it will look when you take off. If you're still sinking fast with the nose on the runway, ADD POWER !! don't yank back any further on the wheel !

And if you're totally messed up ... GO AROUND !

Also, I'm in the 50% camp that thinks flight simulator software is a great help when learning to land. Get MS fliight sim or Xplane ..etc and practice landings and look at the sight picture of the runway "flattening out" as I described.

The most important thing to remember is to keep flying the plane. It's not going to "stop instantly" at your touch down point. Flare at ~10-20 feet and just keep flying it until it doesn't want to fly anymore and you should be getting you first "greaser" soon.

Mike

[mstram]

Started looking down the end of the runway and huge difference, had a couple of landings where I wasn't even sure we had actually touched down

It took me "awhile" to learn to land :)
Similar to your advice, the chief CFI had me not only look at the end of runway, but had me put the nose of the (C172) on the runway or just above it... similar to the attitude it would be in at takeoff Then he told me to just keep increasing the backpressure during the flare as the speed bled off, to maintain that nose position / attitude.
Right after he showed me that, I went from terrible / scary landings to very good ones, and the next day, when back with my usual instructor, performed a "greaser" on my first landing attempt with him.
Mike

[kiwi chick]

The thing that worked for me - such a silly, simple thing too - was to tighten my shoulder straps.

Turns out I was pulling myself forwards as well as the controls back, and therefore not getting a true feel for the level of movement required.

Worth a try huh?! :ok:

[Right Stuff]

Take a minute when you line up pre-takeoff to have a look at the runway sight picture with the aircraft on the ground. This may help you calibrate the flare and should give you a good crack at height judgement when you see the runway appear in your peripheral vision.

[Nipper2]

Wait until the clocks go forward and then try a few night landings. If you can't see th runway you will not worry so much about hitting it. Set the attitude and fly the aircraft on.

(This is not a wind-up by the way).

[strake]

Wait until the clocks go forward and then try a few night landings. If you can't see th runway you will not worry so much about hitting it. Set the attitude and fly the aircraft on.

(This is not a wind-up by the way).

Funny Nipper, but I was remembering exactly the same thing. When I did my night rating I was amazed how "easy" landing was. Just looked into the darkness and used peripheral vision on the runway lights to judge the flare. Of course, might not have been quite so easy had there been a howling crosswind....

As far as the original question, I think you just have to grit your teeth and keep trying until the skill develops. It's one of those things, like riding a bike, you just can't do unless you practise....as we have all found out:ok:

[Knight Paladin]

Your instructor tried to force you to look to the sides rather than ahead down the runway? I thought that was pretty much the last thing you should be doing?!? Try to look right down to the end of the runway, making it far easier to judge attitude against the horizon.

[Fly-by-Wife]

PA28-131?

Doesn't exist - no wonder you're having a hard time landing it!

:}

[GeorgEGNT]

sorry my mistake 161 lol I'm really relating to all of these posts its great to hear about other people having this problem and their own solutions to it. I'm flying on tuesday an hour in the circuit at carlisle so I hope I can try a few of your tips then.

Knight Paladin my instructor doesnt try to make me look out of the side window (sorry poor explanation on my part) he makes me look forward but around the panel rather than directly over it. this is because I was suffering from the problem that kiwi chick pulling myself forward but for a different reason, purely to see the runway!

Anyway its been a great response thanks for all your help, happy landings! (I hope mine are on tuesday lol)

[dsandson]

Cant ever remember having that ground rush feeling, but I've found the following thread invaluable... stuff like imagine the height of a double-decker bus to judge the flair. Also during the hold off, looking down the runway, not to the end, but to where the apparent movement of the r/w markings end, so to keep some peripheral vision to the side of the plane. Works a treat for me.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74587

I still keep it linked because the way Chuck Ellsworth describes it is the best I've seen.

dsandson

[Fright Level]

It took me a good 200 hours into my flying to be reasonably certain of the outcome of a landing. Prior to that although the technique was taught, it just felt like I wasn't really in control for that last 5-6 feet and I quietly hoped the landing would be good.
In more advanced training I was lucky to find an instructor who watched me, and where I was looking when I landed, not the plane. A couple of circuits later he had me transitioning from the aiming point (getting the ground rush/texture flow thing) to slowly looking out to the far end of the runway for the final bit of the flare. Even if the view over the nose was obstructed it was still easy to keep pulling or hold off until the wheels touched.
The advice served me well and works whenever I fly the 747, TB20 or C172 (although the latter two make me twitch if the last flare was at 40 feet in the jumbo!).

[ShyTorque]

I suggest you watch your instructor in your peripheral vision. When he twitches, it's time to flare, not before. ;)

Seriously, we used to teach flying on grass airfields for night flying (RAF), with only edge lighting and no white ground markings to see; the visual effect was that of landing in a black hole in the ground. The method taught was to wait until you got a feeling that the edge lights were coming up around your ears.

I suggest you wait for a quiet time, taxy out onto the runway and sit there until you can really visualise the sight picture of the aircraft on the ground. Then go and fly some more circuits. Get your instructor to demo some landings and use your peripheral vision while he lands.

[XL319]

I was always told to focus outside the aircraft with fleeting glances at the ASI etc etc to ensure correct speed. I was always told to hold the a/c off until it started to sink then keep flaring. However PA28 and possibly C152 are more forgiving and they seem to land for you (i.e they just fly onto the rwy after the flare) if that makes sense.

[Arclite01]

Go do some circuits in a Piper Cub.

The approach is (seems ?) slower to me, and you can flare the aircraft properly and see it, and hold it off for a a proper landing.

Also the ground rush does not seem so pronounced to me................

but then I'm biased - I'm a cub pilot !

Arc

[GeorgEGNT]

Paris Dakar, I do fly with JC and I'm going to Carlisle next tuesday lol Newcastle is no good for circuits imo I suppose its good for practise flying in a busy zone with the big boys flying around you but for the early hours in the circuit its really no good.

[RatherBeFlying]

Some of us need prisms in our glasses. In my case I was flaring late without them, but it's possible the error can go the other way.
When you do your medical, there's a scope you look through that shows a line of white dots against some inverted red L's . If that goes through the middle, you should be OK -- otherwise it's time to visit an optometrist.
Once you can distinguish texture on the ground, such as grass blades or cracks in the asphalt or concrete, it's time to look to the end of the runway to manage your flare as others have already said.
Use your peripheral vision to keep track of the edge of the hard runway, especially if it's narrow, so that the x-wind does not play tricks on you.

The other thing you need to work out is the rate of stick movement that will produce a proper flare. Each a/c will be different and it will also change with the centre of gravity and airspeed. This is where keeping your gaze on the end of the runway will give you pitch feedback on your flare.

[k12479]

"Take a minute when you line up pre-takeoff to have a look at the runway sight picture with the aircraft on the ground. This may help you calibrate the flare and should give you a good crack at height judgement when you see the runway appear in your peripheral vision."

Try this one. Worked for me.

[Troy McClure]

Look as far ahead as you can. (Ask instructor to get his damn chart out of your face if need be).

By looking at 'infinity', your eyes diverge so you gain peripheral vision.

When the runway edge 'touches' the bottom of your headset, start the flare. When it reaches the middle of your ears, you're down. (And as Strake says, works at night too.)

During the flare, NEVER pull back more than 1/2 inch in one go (and I emphasise in one go - don't assume 1/2 inch will be enough).

If 1/2 inch not enough, pull back another 1/2 inch and repeat as necessary until your main wheels are down (I've had students get everything right to about 2 feet and decide they've done enough, then bounce).

If 1/2 inch too much, you may balloon but only very slightly, so wait for it to sink back down, then continue as before.

Sometimes you'll need several consecutive 1/2 inch pulls in quick succession, just a microsecond between each to assess. The best landings from the right approach you'll find you need about 4, a second or so apart.

While this is going on, point the aeroplane down the runway with your feet and keep it on the centre-line with aileron. (That's crosswinds sorted too then.)

Agree with other posts: Once on the ground (whether you slammed it in or greased it...), spend a few seconds looking at the end of the runway. This is what being on the ground looks like. You should find (as mentioned above) that the ground in your peripheral vision is around the middle of your ears.

As others have said, when I first learnt on grass, I was told to flare when I could see the blades of grass rather than just a mass of green. Caution: If your eyesight's less than perfect, guess this wont work. Get your medical before trying this method... :)

[Fly-by-Wife]

When the runway edge 'touches' the bottom of your headset, start the flare. When it reaches the middle of your ears, you're down.


Troy, interesting - but what about on a grass field, when there is no clearly defined runway edge? Especially if eyesight less than perfect ;)

Also, does the width of the runway have any effect? I can't visualise it myself, hence the question.

Finally, would there be a difference for different sizes of individuals in different aircraft types - e.g. tall & short people in say a Europa vs C172? Or is the variation actually fairly insignificant?

Is this something best "calibrated" by an individual student in the aircraft they usually fly - noting the "flare" position while the instructor demostrates the correct height?

FBW

[Troy McClure]

Doesn't have to be the runway edge per se, just the ground either side of you (so runway width shouldn't matter). The main point is not to look in the near distance because your eyes converge (you go cross-eyed to an extent) and you lose some peripheral vision. I'm convinced this is the reason why 'looking long' helps, though it will also allow you to judge that you're slightly nose-high in the flare so the main wheels touch down first.

If the ground is not flat for a reasonable distance either side, e.g. there's a hedge or a bank near the runway edge, that may cause problems I admit, but at any reasonable licenced field you'll have enough flat ground either side of you.

Tall/short people; maybe a very slight difference. I've got a feeling the difference will be negligible - to the tune of an inch or two. Remember when flying at altitude, the higher you are the further away the horizon is, so the same 'picture' gives you (for example) straight and level flight at cruise power/speed. I should imagine the same works in this case, but on a smaller scale.

Different aircraft types probably would make more difference. A mono wheel is going to 'feel' a lot lower when on the ground than a 747. Many jet pilots feel that they have sunk through the runway before the wheels hit when they get back in a light single.

As I said, when on the ground, make a mental note that this is what being on the ground looks like. When the ground out of the corners of your eyes is a bit below that, you're at the right height to start the flare. If any 'calibration' is needed, that should sort it out for you, regardless of aircraft type.

To be honest, once you've worked out how to land your usual training aircraft you get a feel for it anyway, and wonder why you ever had a problem. When you progress onto different types, you just know when it looks right. I have no problem landing a Navajo or a C152, even when swapping regularly between the two. My 'method' is the way I try to teach PPL students new to the circuit after a few hours. Once they've cracked it, they've cracked it and would probably find it difficult to explain to anyone else how they do it. All I know is that I've inherited students that just can't get the landing right, and this has helped them no end. And obviously I don't just tell them what to do and let them get on with it, I help as required until they realise what I'm talking about so they can make their own judgments about how it should look.

Incidentally, I only just thought of the words: 'point the aeroplane down the runway with your feet and keep it on the centre-line with aileron' as a simple way of explaining crosswind technique. Think that sums it up pretty well. Any comments?