Renewing my JAA PPL

[samuelwmartin]

Hi there,
Simple question - or so I thought - but many conflicting answers:
I completed my JAA PPL in November 2001.
I want to renew it, and haven't flown since, but intend to do a few hours in America in January.
What do I have to do to stay in line with the JAA/CAA regulations? No arguments, just a straightforward answer would be SO SO much appreciated!
Thanks,
Sam

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

I think, but I am not sure, you have to do a full skill test again, get your class 2 medical, and you may have to do some exams again, but am not 100% sure. Check out LASORS, that has all the information you require.

[3 Point]

If you completed your PPL in Nov 2001 it would have had an SEP rating expiring around Nov 2003, two years later. It is now 2007 ie almost 4 years out of date. up to 5 years expired you simply need to pass a skill test with a PPL examiner who will then sign the relevant page in your licence and your SEP rating is valid for another two years from the date of test.

You will of course have to have an in date medical to use the licence and the licence itself must also be in date, check section IX on the second page of the licence for the expiry date of the actual licence; if this date has passed then, after renewing your SEP rating you must apply to the CAA to renew the actual licence for a further five years .

The training school and examiner who are going to do your renewal training will advise you - be careful about "advice" you might see on here; it's not always up to date.

Happy landings

3 Point

[Jhieminga]

I was going to post the same, but 3 point beat me to it! The relevant information is indeed in LASORS, I would suggest a read through that, at least to get to know the document, as it will answer many questions and it always pays to be prepared.

If you haven't flown since your PPL test then a bit of extra training might not go amiss, but your flight school/training organisation will advise you on that.

[Fly-by-Wife]

Here's the definitive answer, from LASORS 2007 - NB, distinguish carefully between LICENSE and RATING.

I have extracted the relevant sections for you (and others).

Bottom Line:
You will need to do the skills test again, you will NOT have to retake any exams, but an ORAL theoretical exam will be conducted as part of the skills test.
You have until 5 years after your RATING EXPIRED to renew the rating. The only effect of not doing so is that you have to pay the CAA extra to endorse your license, rather than get the examiner to sign your license (Certificate of Revalidation page).
You will obviously have to renew your expired license for another 5 years. You can do this even without a current RATING, provided that you have a valid medical cert and the RATING expired less than 5 years ago. Otherwise you first have to renew the rating, then reapply for the license.C5.1 LICENCE RE-ISSUE

For a licence to be valid, a pilot must hold a current
medical certificate appropriate to the licence held, and
have a valid aircraft rating.

A UK National or JAR-FCL Pilot’s Licence will be
re-issued for a further period (5 or 10 year validity as
appropriate to the licence held) subject to meeting the
following:-

1. Hold a medical certificate appropriate to the
licence being re-issued valid for the first day of
issue of the new licence.

2. Have held a valid Certificate of Test, Certificate of
Experience or Certificate of Revalidation for any
type/class rating that has not expired by more than
5 years*.

*Applicants who are currently flying under the privileges
of a non-UK ICAO licence and are currently flying an
aircraft type endorsed within their UK or JAR-FCL
licence, may have their licence re-issued by holding a
valid medical certificate appropriate to the licence being
re-issued. A QSP in current flying practice on any
military aircraft type (aeroplane for re-issue of
aeroplane licence and helicopter for re-issue of
helicopter licence) may have their licence re-issued by
holding a valid medical certificate appropriate to the
licence being re-issued.

Applicants who are not flying an aircraft endorsed
within their UK or JAR-FCL licence may not have their
licence renewed until such time as an appropriate valid
medical certificate and Certificate of Revalidation are
obtained. Applicants may either renew an existing
rating within their UK or JAR-FCL licence or may wish
to transfer a type/class rating that he/she is currently
flying under the privileges of their non-UK ICAO
licence. Renewal of appropriate ratings or the transfer
of type/class ratings is specified in Section F.


EXPIRED LICENCES

If the holder of an expired UK National or JAR-FCL
pilot’s licence has held a valid Certificate of Test,
Certificate of Experience or Certificate of Revalidation
for any type/class rating that has not expired by more
than 5 years, then only the appropriate valid medical
certificate must be obtained to re-issue the licence.

If the holder of a UK National or JAR-FCL pilot’s licence
has not held a valid Certificate of Test, Certificate of
Experience or Certificate of Revalidation for any type/
class rating that has expired by more than 5 years**
they may not have their licence re-issued until such
time as an appropriate valid medical certificate and
Certificate of Revalidation are obtained. Applicants
may either renew an existing rating within their UK or
JAR-FCL licence or may wish to transfer a type/class
rating that he/she is currently flying under the privileges
of their non-UK ICAO licence. Renewal of appropriate
ratings or the transfer of type/class ratings is specified
in Section F.

**Where an applicant can show that he/she is currently
flying under the privileges of a non-UK ICAO licence
and are flying an aircraft endorsed within their UK or
JAR-FCL licence, they may have their licence re-issued
by holding a valid UK or JAR-FCL medical certificate as
appropriate to the licence being re-issued. A QSP in
current flying practice on any military aircraft type
(aeroplane for re-issue of aeroplane licence and
helicopter for re-issue of helicopter licence) may have
their licence re-issued by holding a valid medical
certificate appropriate to the licence being re-issued.

SECTION F

Validity Periods of Ratings:

Under JAR-FCL, type and class ratings are valid for
one year (2 years for single-pilot, single engine class
ratings) from the date of issue, or the date of expiry if
re-validated within the validity period. Therefore, a
rating issued on, say, 15th August 2006 will remain
valid until 14th August 2007. For AOC holders, this is at
variance to the provisions of JAR-OPS, which in the
above example would allow the rating to remain valid
until 31st August 2007 (i.e. until the end of the calendar
month in which the rating falls due). To resolve this
anomaly, the CAA’s Flight Operations Department has
granted certain AOC operators exemptions that extend
the validity of ratings to the end of the month, in line with JAR-OPS. Where a licence holder is affected by such
an exemption, the date of the next re-validation will run
from the end of the month in which the previous rating
was due to expire. Ratings are revalidated/renewed
exclusively, with no cross-over unless otherwise stated.

Re-validation

Re-validation is the administrative action taken within
the validity period of a rating that allows the holder to
continue to exercise the privileges of a rating for a
further specified period (provided certain, specified
requirements are met).

Renewal

Renewal is the administrative action taken after a rating
has lapsed which renews the privileges of the rating for
a further specified period (provided certain, specified
requirements are met).

F1.5 RENEWAL OF SINGLE-ENGINE PISTON – SEP (LAND), TMG CLASS RATINGS

Where licence holders have been unable to renew a
SEP (Land) or TMG Class Rating for a period not
exceeding 5 years from the date of expiry, they will be
required to complete the following requirements:

i. The CAA will require no mandatory additional
training. Applicants should complete training at
their own discretion sufficient to pass the Skill
Test.

ii. Complete the Skill Test in accordance with
Appendices 1 & 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 with a JAR
Authorised Examiner. For renewal of an
instrument rating if held, please refer to Section
E1.5.

iii. Pass an oral theoretical knowledge examination
conducted by the Examiner as part of the skill
test.

iv. A UK Authorised Examiner can sign the
Certificate of Revalidation page (FCL150CJAR)
within a UK national pilot’s licence. An Examiner
qualified in accordance with JAR-FCL (in any
fully compliant JAA Member State) can sign a
Certificate of Revalidation page within a
JAR-FCL licence. The LST/LPC form, completed
as a renewal, should be sent to CAA PLD.

v. The CAA will charge no fee provided that the
Examiner signs the Certificate of Revalidation.

Where licence holders have been unable to renew a
SEP (Land) or TMG Class Rating for a period
exceeding 5 years from the date of expiry*, they will be
required to complete the following requirements:

i. Complete the Skill Test in accordance with
Appendices 1 & 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 with a JAR
Authorised Examiner.

ii. Pass an oral theoretical knowledge examination
conducted by the Examiner as part of the Skill
Test.

iii. The LST/LPC form, completed as a renewal,
should be sent to CAA PLD for endorsement,together with the appropriate fee as per the Scheme of Charges.

iv. The Examiner should make no licence entry.

Enjoy! :)

FbW

[samuelwmartin]

Thank you SO much guys. It's really appreciated to get some common ground from you all!

Sam

[BEagle]

A JAR-FCL licence issued in Nov 2001 should have been re-issued in Nov 2006. For that you would have needed a valid SEP Class Rating and a valid Class 2 JAA medical as the minimum requirements.

To obtain a valid JAR-FCL PPL(A) with SEP Class Rating, you now need to do the following:

1. NO exams - not even an oral as your SEP Class Rating is less than 5 years after expiry (Nov 2003)!

2. Take sufficient training, then pass the LST and complete this form: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1119.pdf. This is NOT the same as the original PPL Skill Test, but will include a little navigation as well as the usual GH.

3. Obtain a Class 2 JAA medical certificate.

4. Complete this form: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1102.PDF .

5. Send the LST form, licence re-issue request form and medical certificate to the CAA, together with this payment form: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1187.pdf and payment of £65 to the CAA. Your licence should be sent to you after 10 working days.

[Fly-by-Wife]

BEagle

1. NO exams - not even an oral as your SEP Class Rating is less than 5 years after expiry (Nov 2003)!

WRONG! read LASORS 2007 F1.5 RENEWAL OF SINGLE-ENGINE PISTON – SEP (LAND), TMG CLASS RATINGS, point iii:
"Pass an oral theoretical knowledge examination
conducted by the Examiner as part of the skill
test."


2. Take sufficient training, then pass the LST and complete this form: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1119.pdf. This is NOT the same as the original PPL Skill Test, but will include a little navigation as well as the usual GH.

WRONG! - read LASORS 2007 F1.5 RENEWAL OF SINGLE-ENGINE PISTON – SEP (LAND), TMG CLASS RATINGS, point ii:
"Complete the Skill Test in accordance with
Appendices 1 & 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 with a JAR
Authorised Examiner. " Note that this says "SKILL TEST", not Proficiency Check.

and read Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240, description of the Skill Test.

5. Send the LST form, licence re-issue request form and medical certificate to the CAA, together with this payment form: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1187.pdf and payment of £65 to the CAA. Your licence should be sent to you after 10 working days.

To clarify, the fee is for the LICENSE renewal, NOT the rating renewal - the latter is FREE providing it is LESS than 5 years after expiry.

If the RATING expired more than 5 years, then there is an ADDITIONAL fee to pay.

I hope this clears the recently muddied waters!

FBW

[jgs43]

Why, Oh Why, do so many people quote Lasors as the definitive answer?
Lasors is a guide and, if you compare it to "THE DEFINITIVE DOCUMENTS i.e. CAP393 AND JAR FCL-1;2; etc" contains many anomalies.
By all means use it as a guide but I would hesitate to ever use it as a definitive reference.:ugh:

[BEagle]

Fly-by-whiff, you are totally wrong yourself. I hope you do not profess to be an Examiner with such strongly stated and incorrect information....

Please allow me to correct your falsehoods.

The SEP Class Rating Licensing Skill Test is not the same as the PPL Skill Test.

It is only necessary for an applicant to take the oral examination if his/her Rating has expired by more than 5 years. As the original PPL Skill Test was passed in 2001, the SEP Class Rating would have expired in 2003. Now, follow this carefully because it involves hard sums which you may well find difficult, 2003+5 = 2008. And it's now 2007 - do you understand this simple concept?

To have a PPL re-issued (the CAA incorrectly call it 'renewed' because they cocked up the form but won't admit it), all the applicant has to do is to obtain a valid medical, pass the Licensing Proficiency Check appropriate to the SEP Class Rating and send the paperwork and payment to the CAA. Nothing else


Would you like me to explain again in even simpler terms?

[Fly-by-Wife]

Beagle,

I'm not an examiner - unfortunately you are, and you really should know better!

Resorting to sarcasm and insults - rather childish behaviour for an instructor / examiner - does not alter the fact that you are simply unwilling to recognise your errors.

I am quoting here from CAP 393 and the ACTUAL JAR FCL sections, not LASORS.

From CAP 393:

Single-pilot single-engine class ratings

(i) Validity

Single-pilot single-engine class ratings are valid for two years beginning
with the date of issue, or the date of expiry if revalidated within the period of three months preceding the date of expiry.

(ii) Revalidation of all single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings (land) and all touring motor glider ratings:

For revalidation of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane (land) class
ratings or touring motor glider class ratings (or both) the applicant shall on
single-engine piston aeroplanes (land) or touring motor gliders (as the case may be) satisfy the requirements specified in paragraph 1.245 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.


Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1, SUBPART F – CLASS AND TYPE RATING (Aeroplane)
JAR–FCL 1.245 Type and class ratings – Validity, revalidation and renewal
(See Appendices 1 to 3 to JAR–FCL 1.240)

(f) Expired Ratings

(2) If a single-pilot single-engine class
rating has expired, the applicant shall
complete the skill test in Appendices 1 and 3
to JAR–FCL 1.240.

Here's the URL for you to check it yourself, as I don't want to try to insert the entire skill test table (Appendix 3) into the thread:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%201%20Subpart%20F%20-%20Amdt%205%20_JAR-FCL%201_.pdf

Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide the relevant links (as I have done) to support your statements, rather than simply being rude.

If I have to choose between LASORS, CAP 393 and JAR FCL Section 1 on the one hand and your "interpretation" on the other, I don't think it will be too difficult a decision for me.

FBW

[BEagle]

Well, you're wrong. Worse, you cannot accept that.

Leave it to professional Examiners to provide the correct advice. That's why we're authorised accordingly.

[Fly-by-Wife]

So I'm wrong, Beagle?

PROVE IT!

You have not yet evinced one single shred or iota of actual evidence to support your interpretation.

So if I talk to the CAA about license revalidation they will not refer me to LASORS, CAP 393 and JAR-FCL, they will just say - "NAh, all that stuff is bollocks, just talk to Beagle on PPRuNe".

Yeah, right!

FBW

[Fly-by-Wife]

Beagle,

You refer to http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1119.pdf -

If you actually read it (rather than just sign it), you would notice the following:

3) Revalidation or Renewal by Proficiency Check or Skill Test:

Pass

i) For revalidation of a rating, or renewal of a rating not exceeding 5 years from the date of expiry, sign the applicant’s “Rating -
Certificate of Revalidation” page and send completed Form SRG\1119 to PLD. No payment to PLD is required.

ii) For renewal of a rating exceeding 5 years from the date of expiry, send completed Form SRG\1119 to PLD for licensing action.
A new rating will be issued by PLD; examiners must not sign the applicant’s “Rating - Certificate of Revalidation” page.
Payment by the applicant to PLD is required for this service (see reference 5g).

Amazingly, this is exactly what I pointed out, but you apparently dispute, and confuse - bizarrely - with whether or not an oral theoretical exam is required.

Perhaps you would oblige us all by publishing the references to support your interpretation? You haven't done so yet.

FBW

[BEagle]

If you talk to the CAA about licence re-issue (there is no such thing as licence 'revalidation'), they will ask you why you haven't read LASORS. And will tell you to speak to an examiner.

Sorry if you cannot accept it, but I am correct in what I say.

The payment is for licence re-issue, not for the SEP Class Rating variance. The pilot's rating is less than 5 years from the last expiry date.

Again, the guidance in my post #7 is all that is required - and I don't need to cut and paste half of LASORS 2007 to back it up.

[samuelwmartin]

Thanks for all your replies guys...but it's just a shame that as usual the bitchiness on this website over-rules simple, clear advice!

Having spoken to the CAA to clarify the confusion this has all caused - I have to send of my license for renewal with appropriate fee, then go and renew my SEP rating, by doing a less complex Skills Test (1.5-2 hours max inc. oral theoretical exam) and then I can send off the paperwork for my full PPL(A) renewal (once I have passed, obviously!).

Thanks,

Sam

[BEagle]

Sam, you cannot renew a licence without a valid Rating and a valid Medical. Whoever at the CAA told you anything different is utterly wrong. Which wouldn't be the first time....

You said your Rating was issued in Nov 2001, thus it expired in Nov 2003. It is less than 5 years since it became invalid, thus there is no need to take any oral exam.

[Fly-by-Wife]

"And the CAA gave unto Beagle these tablets, and Beagle came down from the high places and said unto the multitude - I am the only true prophet, heed not those that quote from the good books, as they are fools and the books are the works of Satan, to lead the righteous astray".

I have to say that your credibitility is rather dented Beagle.

I have, when challenged, produced chapter and verse from the official documents to substantiate what I have written.

You, on the other hand, have produced...err... sarcasm, rudeness and bluster.

Prove to me that I am wrong and that you are right and I will publicly apologise. I am man enough to do so. Are you?

FBW

[samuelwmartin]

Well the CAA aren't wrong - and I just called them again to double check!

[BEagle]

Sam, my apologies as my guidance was slightly incorrect.

In order to renew your licence, you are required to have held a valid aircraft rating for any type/class rating that has not expired by more than 5 years*, and a medical certificate appropriate to the licence being re-issued valid for the first day of issue of the new licence.

*Where the validity of your most recent aircraft rating has expired by more than 5 years, you will be required to renew an aircraft rating within your licence prior to licence re-issue. If you are currently flying under the privileges of a non-UK ICAO licence or are a current Qualified Service Pilot, and are flying an aircraft type/class within your UK or JAR-FCL licence, you will not be required to renew an aircraft rating but will be required to supply actual flying logbook(s) evidence, and a copy of your non-UK ICAO licence with your application for verification.

This has obviously been changed to ease the paperwork. All you now need to do is to arrange to pass the SEP Renewal LST the day your licence arrives, your Examiner can then sign your Certificate of Revalidation and you can start using your PPL again immediately.

Still no need for the oral though - and a renewal LST shouldn't take more than about 1:15.

[samuelwmartin]

I think it is very informal, and is at the examiner's discretion....that's all.

Which is a pretty obvious thing to expect anyway.

I'm doing mine in Florida now at Sunstate Aviation in Jan/Feb (even though they're not JAA approved it doesn't matter because I'm just training up to standard to pass my Skills Test (by a JAA examiner!).

Sam