Accelerated command Emirates [Archive]

helen-damnation

9th Sep 2007, 10:11

Inciter,

There are a large number of F/Os with over 3 years in the company who are eligible for a command but are stil waiting for their course. They are very capable and are stuck in the RHS through no fault of their own. :sad:

Jedy's profile shows a JAR licence and type as 737NG. While I'm sure he is a capable chap, this could mean that he has no experience of HF, Monsoon, 7000' elevation airports, understand the Chinese ATC etc etc etc.

If that is the case then he very defintely would need the assistance and experience of a Senior F/O.

Obviously, you and 411A wouldn't :ooh:

inciter

9th Sep 2007, 11:24

helen-damnation

I assume we are talking about experienced commanders. As professionals I am sure that prior to taking command of their jet they would be adequately prepared. Most of the info required should be in the company ops manuals and in Jepps. As far as Chinese ATC goes no one understands them anyway, after been there a few times you just know what they are going to say next.

There is a big difference between assistance and holding one's hand.

Ghostflyer

9th Sep 2007, 11:33

The accelerated option is in the FOM but will never be in your contract. You would only get accelerated if there were no 3 year F/Os eligible for command on your fleet. So were you to join now you would not get accelerated. We have many F/Os with more experience than you that are still waiting. Is that the answer you are looking for?

The goal posts can and do change all the time, as they say, past performance is not an indicator of future performance...... When I joined it was 4500hrs, then went to 9,000 briefly before settling down at 6,000.:ok:

Payscale

9th Sep 2007, 11:50

Any 6000+ pilot with 2000+ jet command flown in Europe doesnt need a hand to hold......in Europe.
But going to FSIA or VRMM in the monsoon is something else..or HAAB for that matter...sweaty hands :}
Experience is good, but there must ba a reason airlines fork out on ROUTE training.....

inciter

9th Sep 2007, 13:03

There are challenging airports and conditions in all continents. The objective remains the same. Do your homework, be prepared and fly safely from A to B without hitting anything on the way, that's all there is to it.
As far as route training goes it doesn't cost much, it enhances SA so bring it on.

Watchdog

9th Sep 2007, 16:07

Wadda mean nobody understands chinese???? I do... (not the correct spelling but)... simi lan chow ! :confused:
:O

spoilers_armed

9th Sep 2007, 16:26

:} chow chee bai! :E:E:E

mensaboy

9th Sep 2007, 18:29

In response to the original question. I don't think anyone knows if the accelerated command policy is still in effect. This type of information is a tightly kept secret amongst management. I suspect new joiners eligible for it will be told it is in effect, as an enticement.

Actually I don't really have too much of a problem with an accelerated command policy but in its recent form it wasn't always equated with ability.

The DEC policy on the other hand.......... WOW. Does anyone know if that is still in effect? I hear of the odd recent joiner getting DEC but not in the numbers it used to happen. I still think, well who am I kidding, it WAS the worst decision EK ever made.

airbus757

9th Sep 2007, 19:43

Once again more BS from the little boy. Nobody, and I mean nobody cares if you have a problem with anything. Go back to the shire and play with your Hobbit friends.

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fatbus

10th Sep 2007, 02:30

There has been and always will be special deals for special people. No need to say anything else.

ShockWave

10th Sep 2007, 05:40

DECs "the worst decision ever" I doubt those who took the jobs or EK agree with you there!
All of the accelerated and DEC options remain in play, but EK will only use them if they run out of qualified more senior F/Os on a particular fleet. If you are not on that fleet at the time then command transition upgrade of F/Os or fleet transfers of Captains will take place. If you are on the fleet that runs out of F/Os then you will be in luck but not before. This is what is currently occurring within EK but is no guarantee of the future. EK will do what is best for them as they see it not what the unlucky fleet pilots who get bypassed for a while may want. It is not a system that is fair to each individual pilot but it does keep the aircraft flying, the airline expanding and the profits rolling in. Which ultimately ensures us all of a secure job with career progression.
If they stuck to strict seniority for upgrades I doubt they could recruit enough pilots to cover the cross training required and extra time on type prior to checkout.
They rely on those bypassed to carry the burden of their poor planning and the fluctuations of aircraft deliveries which is unfair. These guys understandably suffer from poor moral and considerable anxiety because of it. I think EK could do a lot more to compensate these guys if it fails to solve the crewing issues. Paying them some form of bypass pay to let them know that the company values them sticking around to become Captains for EK would go a long way to reducing the bitterness.

Hook

10th Sep 2007, 05:44

Hey airbus 757, what's with the attitude? Mensaboy is right.
Obviously you're a DEC........

mensaboy

10th Sep 2007, 08:00

757 is a someone who got beat up a few years back by a smaller yet apparently tougher canuck, so he's still feeling a bit silly about it all. He thinks its me, hence the venom he can't help spewing. He came from a certain airline that went defunct and now he doesn't have his mother here to further his career so he's feeling a bit out of place.
You may run across him in the ops center, he's the one with his legs dangling out of the ass of the nearest management type.

TangoUniform

10th Sep 2007, 09:33

Hey Mensa,
Wow, two posts and you didn't mention that this whole DEC thing was the fault of Americans and G.Bush. You're slipping little guy. I'm waiting for your next manifesto.:ok:

PLJ

10th Sep 2007, 09:54

jedy

A good mate just interviewed with Emirates. Said he was eligible for accelerated command but nothing in writing.

fatbus

10th Sep 2007, 10:21

Its in writing , but no one is going to tell you that you will do an accelerated upgrade. It will depend on crewing numbers at the time. 6000/2000 is published, but look out for the special deals!

airbus757

10th Sep 2007, 11:03

Hook...

Hey airbus 757, what's with the attitude? Mensaboy is right

The thing is, he is not.

In response to the original question. I don't think anyone knows if the accelerated command policy is still in effect.

BS. Plenty of other people know if it is still in effect. The thing is you kind of have to know just a little bit about the FOM. Try 3.5.3.1 and 3.5.3.2 and 3.5.3.3.

This type of information is a tightly kept secret amongst management.

Once again BS. See the above ref.

Actually I don't really have too much of a problem with an accelerated command policy but in its recent form it wasn't always equated with ability.

Perhaps "nobody" is a little strong but definatley most people do not care if Mensa Has a "problem" with anything.

The DEC policy on the other hand.......... WOW. Does anyone know if that is still in effect? I hear of the odd recent joiner getting DEC but not in the numbers it used to happen. I still think, well who am I kidding, it WAS the worst decision EK ever made.

Does he "know" it was even a mistake. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. And if it was, was it worse than a huge sponsorship for some race team that only lasted for a year. I can say very few people acually know the inner workings of the cheques and balances for this company, least of all someone who does not even know our FOM.

In short most of anything Mensa says is just plain wrong and the stuff that is correct is probably a fluke.

Obviously you're a DEC........

There is nothing obvious about it. I have or will fall under 3.5.3.1 or 3.5.3.2 or 3.5.3.3.

7

mensaboy

10th Sep 2007, 12:23

When I mentioned that I didn't know if the Accelerated Command policy was in effect, that means ''IN EFFECT''.......... not simply written as a possibility in the FOM. Every single pilot I have asked about this policy has answered that they have no idea whether it's in effect or not.
Do you adhere to the FOM regulated cockpit/engineer fueling communications dictated in the FOM for example? By your convoluted logic, if it's in the FOM, therefore it is carried out to the letter of the law. Now that is BS and even you know that.
Another example is the priority of command opportunities. We all know that the FOM states one thing, yet the company does as it sees fit under given circumstances.
You said it yourself, YOU have or will fall under blah blah blah in the FOM. Have you been told you have a course date? If so, then the policy is in effect. If you do not have a course date, then who knows? That is my whole point. If it is in effect, you should be given a course date 18 months after you join, so why is that not given to you?
Why are pilots left to second guess policy, when big career decisions are based on things that might not even happen. I just think it's unfair not to come right out and say what is going to happen.
As for the DEC policy, only those who have benefited from it are not willing to agree that it was THE WORST decision in the history of this airline. I can understand their POV certainly and do not blame them personally, but it does not alter the fact that immediately following the period of hiring of DEC's, suitable applications dried up. It was a direct cause and effect. It was the single biggest factor in losing out on lots of good guys coming to EK over a period of 2 to 3 years.
There is a problem when individuals such as yourself 757, blindly follow management. I suppose since you have benefited by such actions throughout your career, you might be led to believe that it is an honorable tactic. How do you explain then, that they themselves have admitted that the DEC policy was a mistake? Hard to hear when you are so far up the cavity?
Is a new joiner supposed to make a decision based on something which may or may not be implemented when his time comes for consideration for command? 18 months, 3 or 4 years to command, is not a big factor in some pilots decision, but its a huge factor for others.
Enlighten us please, have you been given a course date or not?? This will surely clear up any question of whether or not it is in effect, which is the juste of this thread. Oh yes, and if you will, oh all knowing 757, is the DEC policy in effect now?

ShockWave

10th Sep 2007, 13:08

mensaboy you are way off the planet with your vitriol.

I am not a DEC, been here a long time and don't think DECs were the worst decision EK ever made. Hate the office, don't go there, and don't fancy any of their cavities. EK would not have been able to start without DECs, so it is little wonder that they still feel the need to utilize them occasionally.

I will stress the point to you "OCCASIONALLY". They have every right to employ DECs whenever they wish, in fact they could just drop all command courses and employ contract DECs with offshore bases or what ever.

You must have noticed by now that, that is not what they wish to do. They do actually put a lot of effort into making their own Captains, but they can hardly ground aircraft due to a lack of experienced Captains either.

I would suggest that if any potential F/Os decided not to come here because of the DEC issue then they obviously listened to to much exaggerated BS on this forum. You obviously still enjoy the job or why on earth are you still here? If you do then why do you try to scare others away?

Nothing has changed, no one within EK new when their upgrade course was going to occur, simply because management don't know either. EK is an extremely dynamic airline, you must be flexible and be ready to accept continual last minute changes just like every other employee.

TangoUniform

10th Sep 2007, 14:29

There is a problem when individuals such as yourself 757, blindly follow management. I suppose since you have benefited by such actions throughout your career, you might be led to believe that it is an honorable tactic. How do you explain then, that they themselves have admitted that the DEC policy was a mistake? Hard to hear when you are so far up the cavity?

Wow, mensa. You seem to know quite a bit. Are you in recruiting? It's even harder to hear when you are up your own third brown eye. Has in fact the DEC program stopped? Do you know for a fact that applications from qualed f/os have dried up? And how do you quantify that it was the WORST decision ever made by the airline. No doubt you can give examples of DECs without relevant theater experience having difficulties. But I will give you examples of TREs here that have little or no clue about proper NAT procedures, because they don't fly in that theater that much. It's not an ability issue, but an exposure issue. Except for the Varig guys and the few other Latin/South American DEC amigos we have here, how will we ever get to GRU without all the experienced sr. F/Os we have here. Mensa, have you been to GRU? Been to the alternates we will have? For your sake, (if you are a capt), hope your other crew has been there. But I forget, as a self proclaimed "mensa" member-you can do anything.

Perhaps you should contact IATA and let them know what a terrible operation EK has due to its hiring of DECs. While you are at it, better tell them about Singapore, Etihad, Qatar, Korean, JAL, Asiana, Ryan Air, EasyJet, a host of operaters in the UK, DragonAir, Air India, JetAirways, Air Astana, on and on. Better have IATA shut down all of the Parc Aviation, Rishworth, Direct Personnel, recruiting sites. There are too many DECs advertised there. Boy, if you had the chance to go to any other major for more money, better lifestyle, and in your home country as a DEC, you would be a lying sack of sheesa if you said you wouldn't because you disagree with the program.

mensaboy

10th Sep 2007, 15:14

Yes I do like it here and have posted such on many occasions. I am not at all trying to discourage others from joining EK. I just think everyone should know the facts. Why is it that every single pilot I have asked has responded that they don't know if the Accelerated Command or DEC policy is in effect? At the least it demonstrates poor communication and at the very worst it is intentionally deceptive.

By the way, I am one of the few who has not slagged DEC's simple because they are DEC's. The program was a mistake though.

In the past 6 years EK has not required DEC's although they told us otherwise when the A343's arrived on short notice. At that time there were many F/O's capable of upgrade and there was a huge pool (in the several thousands) of potential recruits. It was a cost saving measure that has backfired because now there is no pool of thousands of excellent candidates. Are you actually questioning the decrease in suitable applicants following the instituting of the DEC policy? That is common knowledge, although I think it has finally started to improve a little.......... in large part due to the perception, if not reality, that the DEC policy is no longer in effect!

Many years ago EK got DEC's because there was no other way to crew the aircraft at the time but there is now no reason other than poor management for this policy to be in place. They knew the growth projections, so why wasn't a natural command upgrade from F/O to Captain the only means to become a Captain at EK?

In addition to slashing the waiting list of suitable candidates from 5000 or so, to an all time low of under 200, the DEC policy caused many to leave EK. Out of all the individuals I personally know who have left EK in the past few years, ALL were disgusted by the policy and for the F/O's it was the single most important factor in their decision to leave.

There must be someone out there is cyberspace who can shed some light on this topic. Are the Accelerated Command and DEC policies in effect??

Watch the recruiting ranks soar if the company comes out and emphatically states that the DEC policy is no longer in effect and will not be utilized for a set out time frame. There are tons of qualified F/O's already at EK, why not use them and bring in a continual stream of suitable pilots to follow a natural progression to Captain.

This is a great job in spite of some things that people don't like such as the city itself, traffic and a general lack straight forward policy on issues that are important to pilots. There is nothing more disconcerting to a pilot than not being told what is expected of him and what he should realistically expect in return.

airbus757

10th Sep 2007, 15:27

Mensa...

Do you adhere to the FOM regulated cockpit/engineer fueling communications dictated in the FOM for example? By your convoluted logic, if it's in the FOM, therefore it is carried out to the letter of the law. Now that is BS and even you know that.

As a matter of fact I/We do. Don't tell me that you don't understand the logic of our SOP. It ensures we do fall into the scope of the FOM. Believe it or not you, your other crew member, along with the Purser, Flight attendants, ground agents, red cap, and the mechanic all do a nice little dance together during the pax boarding which ensures the FOM is followed. Don't you see that?

Gees, when I said you sometimes get it right by fluke, I didn't realise how true or deep it extended.

There must be someone out there is cyberspace who can shed some light on this topic. Are the Accelerated Command and DEC policies in effect??

Didn't we cover this already. As far as I know the FOM is "in effect". Just go read it.

7

Hook

10th Sep 2007, 15:29

For clarification to all, DEC interviews were held about 2 months back - I know because a mate of mine attended (don't know if any since then). I recall one of the top brass saying that very few DECs - no more than 25 (not sure of the exact figure) would be employed this year. The vacancy for DECs apparently is still valid, as can be seen in another thread - EK roadshow in SA.
Accelerated commands are still being carried out.

GMDS

10th Sep 2007, 16:07

by mensaboy:

but it does not alter the fact that immediately following the period of hiring of DEC's, suitable applications dried up.

Just for our understanding, mensaboy: Did you join before or after the DEC program was reinstalled??

Watchdog

10th Sep 2007, 17:26

I am a tad amused sometimes that some guys get all caught up & hot and bothered about things like 'it was a big mistake'- 'they should have done this and that'...'DEC this, DEC that"....blah blah blah. Grow up please!! You've got NO F**KING IDEA!
Anyone that has owned and/or managed a business will know that the various staffing decisions are made to achieve certain objectives.
Some on these forums act like they have the skills and intimate business knowledge of the CEO/senior managers of the company....well, I hate to break the news to you, but you don't. We are NOT privy to what goes on behind closed doors and we will be told about the direction/policy of the business on a 'need-to-know basis' as management see fit.
Pilot's are tasked to, and are competent in performing, a specific function within the business, not indifferent to, say, an engineer.
So take a chill pill, make your decisions on what you think is right for your career and if you are not happy then do something else....you'll live longer without the stress :)

jedy

10th Sep 2007, 17:55

I am a tad amused sometimes that some guys get all caught up & hot and bothered about things like 'it was a big mistake'- 'they should have done this and that'...'DEC this, DEC that"....blah blah blah. Grow up please!! You've got NO F**KING IDEA!

Man, I could't agree with you any more. I knew that my question regarding the accelerated command scheme was going to cause a stir, but that is not what I am interested in.
I am a LTC for one of the web's favorites LOCO companies and all I want to know is before I jump into the desert is if I could expect to get an upgrade in about 18 months to 2 years.
I personally don't have a problem joining as a FO but the massive paycut that I will take is. 2 years is OK but anymore not.
For me this is only about money and career and in that order as I don't see myself flying for the next 25 years of my life, anyway.

What do you think guys?

airbus757

10th Sep 2007, 18:50

There is no getting around it. If you come to Emirates, they are the ones in control. This is how it all boils down. A F/O with 3 years service gets first kick at the cat provided he has the hours, and has shown proficiency in his job. Then it is the accelerated guy who must have more experience and been at the company at least a year. Then it is the DEC.

Simple right? The thing is, the company does not have to follow these rules if it doesn't want to. If it costs too much or if it reduces the expertise to unacceptable levels on a particular fleet, flight ops are not allowed to do it. That being said the company will try as best they can to follow the sequence. Of course this is a simplified view and in fact it can get much more complicated but you get the general idea.

7

atiuta

10th Sep 2007, 18:59

The policy for acceleration is valid as of today. Just don't fool yourself that there is an acceleration program with names attached to it, because there isn't.

You either join as an FO with standard/realistic/statistical expectations to command time or you join as a DEC. Only those two options will give you any degree of certainty on time to command. Joining with self belief in the acceleration policy is akin to Russian roulette, you might win you might lose. I say self reliance because it will only be in your own mind. You will not receive anything in writing.

Jedy, I think it's not for you.

bus canuck

11th Sep 2007, 02:48

Atiuta pretty well hit the nail on the head. :ok:

I am a LTC for one of the web's favorites LOCO companies and all I want to know is before I jump into the desert is if I could expect to get an upgrade in about 18 months to 2 years.

The answer is simple. You cannot "expect" an upgrade in 18 months to 2 years. That's not to say it isn't possible, but to "expect" it would be reckless.

ojguilty

13th Sep 2007, 00:17

by mensaboy:

Quote:
but it does not alter the fact that immediately following the period of hiring of DEC's, suitable applications dried up.

Just for our understanding, mensaboy: Did you join before or after the DEC program was reinstalled??

The Littlest Canuck doesn't seem to want to address your question, GMDS. That might force him to face the truth about why a jumpy little twit toiling at some dead end job in Jerkwater, Canada couldn't get hired by a real airline in North America.

Since you're a big proponent of the company following "policy", Little One, how about you start embracing the one known as CRM. You know, the one that says you should welcome constructive inputs and yes, criticisms, because they provide a critical barrier to mistakes and thus enhance the safety and professionalism of our operation. Adherence to CRM is not attained by interpreting every suggestion as a deadly threat to one's small man ego.

ojguilty

14th Sep 2007, 00:37

by mensaboy:
.....and ever since I lambasted the Yanks for their inept government, poor RT and general image conscience behaviour, you have taken a dislike to me.
Wrong. I disliked you long before that.......since perhaps ten minutes into our first flight together. And may I ask, Mr. Mensa Member, what be "image conscience behavior?"

If there is a GOD, we will meet 'one on one' in the after-life in a dark alley, or even better some night in Deira after a couple of pints.
PM me and we shall arrange a meeting, Little One. It would take me about 3 seconds to put you on your back. Perhaps your secret wish is to have a toothless smile like that of a hockey player, since you were too small to make the high school team.

Apparently you have had some disagreements with Canucks.
No, just with a certain prickly little one. The rest I like just fine.

So, OJ is guilty, yet you defend America's invasion of Iraq.
Actually, I have never posted comments on Iraq, George Bush nor any other political issue. But it is fun to see your fevered mind flailing away again in full defensive mode. Get help!

Thanks for your silly posts, makes me feel I"m so smart compared to people like you.
I'm so glad. Now if only I could post something that would make you feel taller.

repapips

14th Sep 2007, 01:25

Just to answer one of the questions previously raised...
As of yesterday, DECs...I repeat... DECs... are still in effect!!!
A friend just came out of the selection process together with a few others (I believe 5 or so) as a DEC applicant.

Tail Rota

14th Sep 2007, 05:30

Hi Guys

Ek HAS A POLICY TO ACCELLERATE PILOTS WHO MEET THE ACCELLERATED COMMAND CRITERIA:ugh:......BUT!!!!!!!!!!

If there are F/O's who are ready , that s is

3 yrs right hand seat,
6000 hrs total
and no issues on their files,
pass the interview and psyhc test....then.....

they will be upgraded regardless of who else is in the company:ok:. ....NOW...

If there are .....NO F/O's .....who meet that previous mentioned criteria, then the next level is looked at..........thats when the accellerated command process is implemented.

You must be in the company 18mths
have passed 2 PPC's without any issues

and you still have to go through ..........the Interview and Psyhc test ......
as part of the normal upgrade process.:E

Then and only then will you be upgraded ahead of anyone else... ...

Now the DEC's are suppose to be employed when non of the previous mentioned candidates are available.

If they are still employing DEC's then there must still be a requirement for Accellerated :D

This can only mean that there are enough commands for everybody......my advise to you all is to be ready....dont worry about what you think is happening.......be ready!!!! :cool:

Off to the beach boys...its an awesome day.;)

thats all.....over ........and out.....:sad:

TR:ok:

BIKKERDENNAH

14th Sep 2007, 14:43

Still hearing that DECs are receiving 3 to 4 years up the scales when they start..:confused:

TangoUniform

14th Sep 2007, 18:10

Absolutley, negative.

777Contrail

15th Sep 2007, 09:48

Guys EK will need an extra 400+ line captains over the next 3-4 years.

Plus training- and check captains.

If they can't find them in the right hand seat they'll look outside.

If the right hand seat has someone in it that has, say 10 000 hours and a lot of training experience, they will be stupid NOT to use him.

They are still interviewing DEC's.

They are NOW doing exelerated command(s).

Nothing will ever be ''on paper'' because then PPRUNE will crash with all the postings.............................................

Stop the worry about what others are achieving, and go out there and do it for yourself.