ATR Coversion, with career prospect

[fly1981]

Hi All, Does anyone have any info on South African company's that operate ATR's? I am a 1500hr CPL/IR pilot on the verge of doing my ATP test,operating turbo-props at the moment. Would love to fly the ATR, and am willing to Pay the Conversion, Provided there is a job afterwards. Please PM me with any contact details? Would appreciate any feedback.

[mlindb]

Try Solenta. www.solenta.com (http://www.solenta.com)

Good luck.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Paying for the type rating is something that should be left to the company you fly for. Having crew pay for a type rating themselves is an insidious illness that is creeping into aviation and eroding terms and conditions for all crew.:=

[oompilot]

Well put SRT. It’s amazing to see that so many guys are so keen to give away their money. Fly1981 never even bothered to query who had ATR’s or similar and are offering training bonds, a much fairer set up for both parties involved. You get a rating and the company makes money out of you because of it. Come on guys, it’s not rocket science.:ugh:

[putt for dough]

As long as there are deperate pilots around, terms and conditions
will steadily deteriate. Just like bus drivers.

[fly1981]

Thanks for the pm's. To SRT, I am fully aware of the state of the aviation market in SA, Having worked in it, And been around it for years, Not just as a pilot I may add. As a pilot with my sort of experience, there are very few, if not any that will pay for a "DECENT' conversion. Not interested in a 2.5hr job, Not even if they paying!

[Foxyflyer]

I understand that you want to move up to bigger aircraft Fly1981 but your experience should be enough without having to pay for the job :ugh:
There is altogether too much of this pilots paying for ratings and young guys working for nothing while daddy pays the bills etc.,
The salaries paid to contract pilots will never improve while this nonsense persists. As Twotter so rightly says, the effects on the industry are insidious. As an operator bidding on a contract, you are up against people who are paying peanuts to guys desperate to get hours so that they can apply for jobs with airlines. The result is that you have to tailor your bid with this in mind. The only way to do that is for you to offer minimal salaries. And so it goes on. Same with safety. The old "if you won't do it, there are dozens who will" syndrome. Always some desperate ouk who will fly for bugger all just to get a job. In a world where pilots buy their own ratings, what becomes of the good pilots who can't afford that. Answer. The jobs go to the guys with the most money. Some system of pilot selection that is:eek:
I have never paid for a rating and never will.
End of rant. FF. :=

[fly1981]

I fully understand and agree with your point. Unfortunately the market has become this way, And I dont think it will change. A pilot like me, you are faced with two options 1)Dont pay for the conversion, carry on flying what you are flying, And let all those below you(with the rich daddy's, as you so rightfully said, Well, unfortunately, dont have one of those, spent years in 'not the nicest parts of the world' to get to the position I am) take the positions with half the experience required. All this just to prove a point!!!:mad: Or 2)bite the bullet, accept the industry the way it is, and pay for the conversion, Im not saying I fully agree with the way it is. But unfortunately you will not progress unless you accept that fact. I am a contract pilot, working in the industry. I have learn't to accept this, I suggest everyone does, Cause its not going to change, as long as the rich daddys are around. Pilots have ended training bonds themselves, by the "few" That did not honour there part of the agreement, Causing the operator to loss money!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

You do realise that there is a lot of movement near the top of the industry, causing a vacuum at the bottom, don't you? Let the companies cough for the type rating and bond crews if they want to remain in business.

[fly1981]

I do realise that, 95% of the company's wont even have a look at your CV if you are not type rated! I have been told this by every single contract company operating from south Africa, They rather accept extremely low time pilots with the 'rich daddy's', than fork out for a conversion. It will never ever get to the point where they will close, because, they will just look outside of south africa for the pilots, its happened on the contract I am working on. The industry in the US has been that way for years, And so has the industry in europe.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Why not follow the natural progression then, rather than try to short circuit the system? You're already on contract, punt for a type rating onto the next level. As for them not bonding and expecting you to be rated, that's utter crap. The market will dictate these things and at the moment it seems to favour the crews. Enough movement at the top (as is already happening) and they'll have to start bonding people to retain their services.

This has been discussed ad nauseum on here and elsewhere. Just do a search...

[fly1981]

Would love to move onto the next bigger aircraft, problem is I am on the biggest aircraft on the contract. Moving onto a bigger aircraft means changing operators! How many SA contract companys operate with foreign crew?PLENTY!reason: The foreign crew either have the rating already, or, with the exchange rate as it is, they can easily afford to pay for it! Operators would prefer SA crew, but with the industry as cut throat as it is, They would rather take rated crew, regardless whether they are South African or not! The contarct I work on is a big one, for a south african company, at least 70% of the crew are non- south african!Why? They were not all rated when they joined, but are willing to pay for the conversion!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

So you're trying to justify why you should help screw it up for everyone else then?

[fly1981]

Im not trying to justify anything, just stating the way it is. It is already screwed up!!!!!!!That happened years ago, when the market was not booming the way it is today, when pilots had to pay for conversions!unfortunately that trend remains, you'll never be able to go back on that!!! I am not willing to get left behind purely to prove a point, The industry is not going to carry on the way it is at the moment for ever, everything works in cycles, its going to calm down, That I have no doubt, every pilots aim should be to get as far in the industry as possible, before that happens.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Sounds like excuses and justification to me. No self respecting CP would hire someone who'd helped shaft his mates. Fortunately for you, very few CPs in SA have any self respect these days.

[fly1981]

Thats an extremely bold statement to make!!!:=My last and final take on this issue: Its been happening in the industry for years, a lot of pilots have learn't to accept it, a lot havent. I just hope(for there sake...)the pilots that havent, are flying the aircraft they want to, because with that mind set, its unlikely they'll be moving onto bigger aircraft in south africa. Maybe, If you are happy to live else where in the world, there is a better chance!Cheers all, got to go fly now, to make some more $$$ to fund further progression!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Pilots are still being bonded and progressing naturally. Your statement that it's impossible to progress without paying for a rating is absolute bull. Plenty of companies will bond you for training and those who want you to pay for your own rating are hardly worth working for. Your attitude is what contributes to the erosion of terms and conditions for crews in South Africa and merely makes it harder for all concerned to get a fair shake. If you feel it's OK to help further screw the industry, perhaps you should ask around for advice in a place like the Dunnunda and Godzone forums where this disease hasn't yet taken hold. Opportunities are even fewer in that part of the world but at least they don't take the short cut and shaft their colleagues. If you think it's OK to pay for a rating, you deserve to get shafted by the operators as you've left the door open for them to do so.

[oompilot]

It’s simple fly1981 you can’t get the job on bigger aircraft because your experience is not adequate. Unscrupulous operators will risk safety and put unqualified monkeys in seats to save money. Shoot me down if you will but this was a contributing factor in the HS748 crash in George a few years back. Read the transcripts before you comment.
I recently got a job on a medium weight AC by simply giving in a CV and sitting the interviews, bear in mind though, I was suitably qualified for the job. Guess what I never paid for the rating, just a bond from my side guarantying some loyalty. So your argument is flawed and rubbish.

[Solenta]

SRT
In the interest of clarification, Solenta Aviation are one of "those" companies that do not pay for ratings. Why ?... simple.
We employ over 140 pilots, and plan to recruit a whole lot more in the near future. That is job opportunities for a whole lot of pilots and engineers.
The stats are there, contract pilots want to build experience and get into the airlines. They want to fly the big stuff, and do not want to be away from home for 2 months at a time, fully understandable.
So, with a very high turnover, say 100 pilots a year, if we had to pay for ratings and bond them, we'd be spending in excess of 5-6 million rand a year to train pilots who then leave, and wouldn't care about a bond, given the opportunity to get into an airline.
We do not do shabby 1.5hr conversions ( 36 days training each for B1900 and ATR conversions g/s, cpt, sim,base training, line training ) and ALL our pilots, Captains AND co-pilots then do a minimum of 10 sectors line training. Our ratings are charged at cost, we are not a flight training school, that is not our business, making money out of conversions, we train pilots to meet our demand, and our required standard, and that is an investment in skills and people. We put a lot of resources into training, safety, engineering, and research and development, always striving to make our standards better.
In our opinion, bonds DON'T work, this has been proven over and over again. But, it's not good enough to stop there, so what DOES work.
There is no ideal situation, so we incentivise ( positive) rather than bond ( negative).
The pilot pays his/her rating, then, after 2 years, ( for the larger, more expensive aircraft ) we pay that rating back to them, over the next two years. So after 4 years, the idea is that the pilot has all the experience they need ( multi-engine turbine P1, ATPL ) and their rating is paid back by Solenta.
If they get that "jet" job within 2 years, they give us their month's notice ( some of them ) Solenta wish them well and we move on, no mess, no fuss.

As you correctly say, there may be a vaccuum as airlines recruit, and we have recruited with this in mind.
If SAA go ahead with redundancies, and I certainly hope that they dont, then there will be a lot of experience released to the SA and international market.( by the market, I mean Emirates, Cathay, Comair, SAX, Link, Nationwide etc... )
Fly 1981 has a point though, why try prove a point, and see pilots, junior to himself, who understand the market, and see opportunities, get the jump on him. To put your mind at ease, Solenta do not take people on, just because they have money for a rating. SRT is correct, what self respecting company would do that ?
The point made earlier in this thread, that this recruitment boom will not go on forever is also valid. Once things stabilise, and they will, with oil at over U$80 a barrel, and airlines having been recruiting for a couple of years now, some airlines restructuring, there will be a time when there aren't those jobs available anymore, and pilots, including contract pilots and the many, many freelance pilots, will be holding on to their jobs, so young inexperience pilots will, sadly, be at that stage where they'd sweep the floor just to get a look in ( all of us that have been in aviation long enough, have been there, aviation goes in boom and bust cycles - and is the FIRST thing that is affected by the economy ).
I wish Fly1981 the best of luck in what he is trying to achieve, if somethings worth having, its worth fighting for, don't give up.

CP Solenta Aviation

[Solid Rust Twotter]

At no point did I mention quickie ratings, only that paying for your type rating is not good practice and is an insidious weakening of the terms and conditions pilots work under in SA. If the need for a potential crewmember to pay for a rating were removed, selection would be based on the best man for the job, rather than the person willing to fork out the cash, whether Daddy is paying or not.

I stand by my comments that the practice is not good for the industry...

[oompilot]

Solenta are not known for their wonderful pay, so by underpaying your pilots and then giving them the money back in years 3 and 4 that they should have got in years 1 and 2 fools nobody. You not giving them their rating money back, just there stolen earnings from year 1 and 2. Do the maths.

[Jamex]

Thankyou Solenta for explaining your methods. I can understand the outlay you would have to make. That is a valid point. I always agree with "incentivising". However, according to studies completed at Cranwell last year, there is a huge pilot shortage looming. If there were not, IATA would never have proposed the MPL scheme they put forward. To get back to Cranwell's report, they say that Emirates are taking a new aircraft in service every month for ten years starting January this year. China needs to train 3000 pilots a year to maintain current needs. These companies are going to be doing some inventive incentivising of their own to attract the experience they want. So on the one side we have companies talking the boom/bust cycle and its effect on aviation and on the other side we have studies by respected institutions and IATA's proposal seemingly supporting this. It would seem the contract companies are going to have to re-think their practices as the exodus to these companies are going to be coming from the scheduled carriers thus leaving the obvious gaps to be filled by contract guys. Traditionally, there was a boom/bust cycle but I predict this current boom cycle is going to go on way longer than any previous boom periods.

[STUBBIES]

Hello chaps,brand new so I hope I don't :mad: someone off.The argument that a company will have big expenditure because of pilot turnover does not justify making someone with a qualification pay to work for you.The problem is that poor pay and dodgy practices cause crew to leave.Sorry Solenta but crew paying for ratings is a insurance policy for the company.What happens when the company loses or ends a contract and now have too much crew,they have no investment to protect so not only will those crews lose income but also the hours they would have gained for theirs.
A big problem is that companies don't want to pay insurance premiums low time crew will cost.What they dn't get is that low time crew will stay longer, so could solve the turnover problem.Anyway thats my take.

[Solenta]

and bonding a pilot will solve this , how ?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

You could be more choosy and get the best person for the job for a start, not just the one with the funds available or one who is prepared to sign a loan agreement. Gives a sense of security to the new hire and gives the company a bit of permanence in their training and work roster. Also does the company image a lot of good among those pilots who may be thinking of applying.

The market is no longer one where you can kick a tree and a dozen hungry experienced pilots drop from the branches.

[unablereqnavperf]

Hear,hear I agree with you.

[Jamex]

Well said Solid Rust Twotter!! Could'nt agree more!!:D

[Avi8tor]

The market is no longer one where you can kick a tree and a dozen hungry experienced pilots drop from the branches.

Not experienced ones, not. That market has dried up. But lotsa young guys out there waiting to move. What will happen is that lower end salaries will move up.

As a pilot, a training bond/conversion onto a B1900/ATR will become relatively cheap because you can get a return on your investment. Its a good sign indeed.

[Solenta]

SRT .... "You could be more choosy and get the best person for the job for a start, not just the one with the funds available or one who is prepared to sign a loan agreement. "

The Solenta interview works such.

1) CV screened by HR, Ops Director and CP
2) if suitable, candidate invited for interview
3) interview involves exam, technical and procedural oral, HR questionnaire and discussion
4) Sim check in multi-engine turbine full visual simulator to check IF procedures, situational awareness, assymetric approach, go-around and landing, general handling, partial panel approach, command ability, and trainability.
5) Reference checks from at least 2 independent references

If successful, invited to do the training mentioned in my previous post.

We only offer the position to those who pass the interview process.
If there is any doubt, a job offer is not made. We will not employ a candidate just because he can pay for a rating.

I have CV's with pilots ranging from 1500hrs ( and frozen ATPL ) to 5000hrs with ATPL, having flown anything from HS748, DC3 to F28, for example, hardly inexperienced.

Solenta will not pass a pilot, just because he has paid for a rating. If he/she do not meet the standard after a tried and tested training regime, further training may be carried out ( at our expense ) or the candidate will not be signed out by the DE. Remeber, he is a CAA approved examiner, and as such, is answerable to the CAA, and to the company. This way, we maintain our standards, as you cannot just "buy" a job.

If the suitable candidate cannot, because of cash-flow, afford the rating, we will look to assist him/her in securing financing, but they pay for the rating initially, and it is reimbursed in line with our policy.

Oompilot "
Solenta are not known for their wonderful pay, so by underpaying your pilots and then giving them the money back in years 3 and 4 that they should have got in years 1 and 2 fools nobody...."

Solenta pay their ATR Captains and co-pilots as much /more than some contract companies out there, and definitely more than the local regional airlines. ( jet jobs included ) as this is the market that will take our pilots as they "progress".
And the aircraft rating is paid back to them.
We pay our turbo-prop Captains more than a jet first officer would get at a very respectable Middle Eastern airline, who have big orders for A380, but require jet time. I think SRT will know who I'm talking of.
I am by no means implying we are the highest paying company out there, but surveys from 3rd party statistical companies will show that we are at/ above the market rate. Remember, the market rate is not the one aircraft operator that employs 2 pilots at a very high salary, our market is affected by companies like SAX, Link etc, companies that employ over 100 pilots.

The reason for my initial post was to be informative, so that pilots understand the dynamics and reason for our chosen system, so that they may make a balanced, educated choice, with all the facts. It may not be a system that one likes, but it's our system of choice....of course, whether or not to send a CV remains a pilot's choice..

[Jamex]

Thank you Solenta, for at least taking the time to explain your companies side of things. This is more than any other company in the country has bothered to do, to the best of my knowledge. I may not agree with you on everything but at least you had the courtesy to state your case and for this I would like to congratulate you and thank you. Only wish the other SA companies would wake up and do the same. By refusing to engage in healthy debate or correcting wrong impressions, whether these be perceived or real, these companies only confirm the impression that pilots in SA are a redundant component of airline operations and should not be taken seriously. Obviously, as professional people who take pride in our chosen careers and strive for the highest levels in all we do, whether it be flying a Chieftain on domestic charters or poling the latest SAA A340, we cannot allow the prevailing attitude to continue. When companies cannot be bothered to reply to genuine concerns they are obviously telling us they are treating us with the contempt we seem to deserve! Obviously, this is unacceptable. All other SA companies take note. Hopefully Solenta will have started something here and relations between the crews and the companies can improve to the mutual benefit of companies and pilots. I still think the more pilots are involved in management the better. Management experience is there, after all everyone who is flying left seat is already at management level.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Ditto Jamex.:ok:

Still don't agree with paying for a rating, though.

[Solenta]

Gautengflyboy

I cannot dispute your opinion, unfortunately, I wasn't part of the management team in 2004, in fact not many of the present management team was. But that was 2004 and, as you correctly say, things DO change. Now, in 2007, we are looking at new ways of engaging our team, and, by team, I mean management, pilots, engineers, ops controllers and admin staff - all trying to move forward in a positive, transparent manner.

There have been HUGE changes here at Solenta in the last 3 years, new people, new contracts, new methods..
I truly believe that the only way forward is as a team, this "them" versus "us" mentality of the past has to change - this is not 1970's coal mining unions. Modern aviation requires pilots to be Resource Managers, and modern management cannot rule with a fist of steel.
This approach takes time, and more importantly, trust, for a relationship to develop - it is a relationship that I will do my best to achieve in my position at Solenta, however, and I've stated this many times, a relationship is a two way street, and I'll give 150% for a pilot that gives 110%, i'll give 50% for a pilot that gives 90%.
Obviously, there is a market boom, and we've had many a pilot recently try to leverage us, or bargain with us, hold us over a barrel, needless to say they don't work for us now. When there is an excess of pilots, we will have to return the same professional courtesy and offer our crews job and salary security.

[fly1981]

I maintain, I have paid for a conversion, made the cash back in 2 tours(in full)best investment ever:D. I know plenty of guys, working for many different company's, including Solenta, that have done the same! And they are extremely happy.Gautengflyboy just had a bad experience, Bad luck:*

[missingblade]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

SOLENTA guy - your BS is funny. And we all know its BS. You will only play nice when you have to and as soon as there is an excess of pilots - which there will be - you will return to your management ways of stealing from employees to increase your bonus.

But please don't be offended - you are not alone. Greed has taken over the planet and we are all being consumed by the morally corrupt excesses of capitalism. And the workers shall pay for it all.

By the way I plan to be in management soon at my company - tired of being a lowly pilot losing out :}

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Fly1981

In that case, continue screwing your colleagues. It's a small industry, things are opening up for pilots and word gets around...:hmm:

[fly1981]

Most of my 'colleagues' are in agreement with me. I am sick and tired of all the "old school' Pilots in the industry complaining about how the younger(more inexperienced)are screwing up the industry, The
'younger' pilots are competing in times where there are more pilots on the market than before, Things dont work the way they used to!There are a lot of experienced pilots that i know of on the market, that are sitting with out jobs because they are still in "that" state of mind, where they believe, the industry owes THEM something.Get over it!!!

[fly1981]

If you think you are going to get the money back on a 737 conversion quicker(if you are planning to work in SA)you are sadly misinformed, as most companys offering 737 conversions with a job prospect dont pay half of what Solenta pay there FO's on the ATR, Jobs on 737's are available with training bonds in SA, Trouble is, you got to be able to live on the salary they pay there after, Which will be tight if You are JHB based.

[fly1981]

plane4sale,you obviously dont know the contract game to well, I can name 2 very well known companies from SA that operate 737's on contract.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Irony bypass a success then, I see '81?:E

[reptile]

I don’t support the idea of having to pay for a rating in order to join a company. This constitutes paying your employer in order to get work - simply doesn’t make sense.

Having said that, the large financial outlay required to train crew on complicated aircraft need to be considered. The likes of Solenta would quickly go out of business if they had no return on investment - so to speak. Some form of guarantee is required to prevent young guns from walking out the door soon after the new type rating is printed in their license. And no, a training bond does not constitute sufficient protection for a company like Solenta.

In my opinion, providing a bank guarantee to the employer (with any interest repaid to the pilot) in return for a type rating is much better idea. The company’s investment is protected and the pilot is not footing the company’s training bill.

Those of you who insist that Solenta would get long term loyalty if they paid top dollar, are simply wrong. Solenta is stepping stone - and as long as they operate in this particular market segment, they will always remain a stepping stone. Pilots will always seek to work for airlines with bigger, faster and more modern equipment. At the airline that I work for, at least 70% of the First Officers are either actively seeking to join larger airlines with bigger aircraft or at the very least keeping an ear to the ground for such an opportunity. In the captain pool, the figure drops to about 10% - simply because not many are keen on joining the bottom of another airline’s seniority list.

Market forces ultimately dictate the salaries and other benefits companies offer. Solenta may very well be forced in future to up the pay or review their “pay for your rating” approach - but only once they start struggling to attract the right caliber applicants. In the mean time, expect the status quo to remain. There are still too many young pilots in the market willing to sacrifice a left (or right) testicle to get a ticket on turbine aircraft.

[Jamex]

The missed irony by the dude from the other planet reminds me once again that opinions are like a:mad:holes, everyone has one.

[nyaminyami]

1981, completely agree with your attitude. my 'rich daddy' sponsored my B200 rating fresh out of comm, i got the hours, the experience and cash to pay him back albeit on a 3 month somali contract.

You self righteous critics need to get off your high horses and come mix it with us lowly 1500 hour types. all very well having your highly admirable aviation ethics. if paying for my rating is what it takes to get that coveted jet as opposed to waiting in line indefinitely and whingeing till blue in the face about the rich daddy types screwing aviation up for everyone else i won't think twice about paying for it.

Thats my opinion, I've had my rant, tear me apart, bring on all the thinly veiled threats of aviation being a small place.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Your lack of scruples and integrity is your own problem.:rolleyes:




It's unfortunate that it impacts on those around you who may not have a rich daddy to pay for their ratings and are now more disadvantaged because of your actions.

[nyaminyami]

i'd say my lack of scruples in this case is my own benefit

[Solid Rust Twotter]

In the short term...

[fly1981]

SWT, Define short term! If by paying for a B200 conversion has got you to the point in your career where you are now more marketable for the bigger airline/corporate positions available, I would say, Paying for you B200 conversion was in Actual fact planning for the long term. You can continue going on and on and on....about how the positions will go to the pilots who can afford to pay for their convesions, and not the more 'deserving' experienced pilots. If they have failed to notice the trend in the aviation industry in this regard, Its there own fault!!!!Being more experienced, surely they have made some money out of flying themselve's, or maybe they have got the experience by flying for minimal financial return, I think we spoke about that earlier in this thread. That is in actual fact worse than paying for a conversion, Beacause the pilots already working in the contract industry's salary will reduce as a result of this. I dont understand how the older more experienced pilots can complain about this whole 'paying for the conversion' rubbish, When in actual fact it does not effect you.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

It's about the gradual and insidious erosion of terms and conditions. By acquiescing to these terms to get a job you are eroding the conditions for all aircrew as it becomes the norm. No doubt you'll be the first to complain when some rich kid gets your job because he's prepared to pay for the hours where you would like to earn a salary.

[18left]

to all ATR drivers theres a rumour that virgin nigeria may be replacing its wetleased fokker 50's for ATRS very soon.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Pity:: with a paid for rating, still comes f*@ll experience, decision making skills or decent risk management.

Paying to fill a seat for a CP who would rather go for the cheapest option, might get you the bragging rights you drooled over for so long, but it still makes you the clown in the seat that paid money to be there - not earned it.

With this attitude, I sincerely hope you never ever complain about quota players in sport, or the buddy buddy nature of SA politcs - you are exactly the same.

Just a lightie that paid for his seat.:D:D

[nyaminyami]

what would you suggest?

[I.R.PIRATE]

work for your seat, and build experience while you are gettting there. Shortcuts will leave you short changed, in the long run.

When hiring pilots, I have always rather looked for the guy with a few hundred PIC hours, even if they are on pistons, than what I take a guy with 1000 hours in the right hand seat of a King Air. PIC time is what will keep you alive when the shart hits the fan, not some fancy right hand seat rating.

But flying is anyway no longer about learning and fililng the bags with experience, its all about the chicks, glamour and bragging rights --- right?