ATR Coversion, with career prospect
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ATR Coversion, with career prospect
Hi All, Does anyone have any info on South African company's that operate ATR's? I am a 1500hr CPL/IR pilot on the verge of doing my ATP test,operating turbo-props at the moment. Would love to fly the ATR, and am willing to Pay the Conversion, Provided there is a job afterwards. Please PM me with any contact details? Would appreciate any feedback.
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Paying for the type rating is something that should be left to the company you fly for. Having crew pay for a type rating themselves is an insidious illness that is creeping into aviation and eroding terms and conditions for all crew.
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Well put SRT. It’s amazing to see that so many guys are so keen to give away their money. Fly1981 never even bothered to query who had ATR’s or similar and are offering training bonds, a much fairer set up for both parties involved. You get a rating and the company makes money out of you because of it. Come on guys, it’s not rocket science.
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Thanks for the pm's. To SRT, I am fully aware of the state of the aviation market in SA, Having worked in it, And been around it for years, Not just as a pilot I may add. As a pilot with my sort of experience, there are very few, if not any that will pay for a "DECENT' conversion. Not interested in a 2.5hr job, Not even if they paying!
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Misguided
I understand that you want to move up to bigger aircraft Fly1981 but your experience should be enough without having to pay for the job
There is altogether too much of this pilots paying for ratings and young guys working for nothing while daddy pays the bills etc.,
The salaries paid to contract pilots will never improve while this nonsense persists. As Twotter so rightly says, the effects on the industry are insidious. As an operator bidding on a contract, you are up against people who are paying peanuts to guys desperate to get hours so that they can apply for jobs with airlines. The result is that you have to tailor your bid with this in mind. The only way to do that is for you to offer minimal salaries. And so it goes on. Same with safety. The old "if you won't do it, there are dozens who will" syndrome. Always some desperate ouk who will fly for bugger all just to get a job. In a world where pilots buy their own ratings, what becomes of the good pilots who can't afford that. Answer. The jobs go to the guys with the most money. Some system of pilot selection that is
I have never paid for a rating and never will.
End of rant. FF.
There is altogether too much of this pilots paying for ratings and young guys working for nothing while daddy pays the bills etc.,
The salaries paid to contract pilots will never improve while this nonsense persists. As Twotter so rightly says, the effects on the industry are insidious. As an operator bidding on a contract, you are up against people who are paying peanuts to guys desperate to get hours so that they can apply for jobs with airlines. The result is that you have to tailor your bid with this in mind. The only way to do that is for you to offer minimal salaries. And so it goes on. Same with safety. The old "if you won't do it, there are dozens who will" syndrome. Always some desperate ouk who will fly for bugger all just to get a job. In a world where pilots buy their own ratings, what becomes of the good pilots who can't afford that. Answer. The jobs go to the guys with the most money. Some system of pilot selection that is
I have never paid for a rating and never will.
End of rant. FF.
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I fully understand and agree with your point. Unfortunately the market has become this way, And I dont think it will change. A pilot like me, you are faced with two options 1)Dont pay for the conversion, carry on flying what you are flying, And let all those below you(with the rich daddy's, as you so rightfully said, Well, unfortunately, dont have one of those, spent years in 'not the nicest parts of the world' to get to the position I am) take the positions with half the experience required. All this just to prove a point!!!
Or 2)bite the bullet, accept the industry the way it is, and pay for the conversion, Im not saying I fully agree with the way it is. But unfortunately you will not progress unless you accept that fact. I am a contract pilot, working in the industry. I have learn't to accept this, I suggest everyone does, Cause its not going to change, as long as the rich daddys are around. Pilots have ended training bonds themselves, by the "few" That did not honour there part of the agreement, Causing the operator to loss money!
Or 2)bite the bullet, accept the industry the way it is, and pay for the conversion, Im not saying I fully agree with the way it is. But unfortunately you will not progress unless you accept that fact. I am a contract pilot, working in the industry. I have learn't to accept this, I suggest everyone does, Cause its not going to change, as long as the rich daddys are around. Pilots have ended training bonds themselves, by the "few" That did not honour there part of the agreement, Causing the operator to loss money!
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You do realise that there is a lot of movement near the top of the industry, causing a vacuum at the bottom, don't you? Let the companies cough for the type rating and bond crews if they want to remain in business.
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I do realise that, 95% of the company's wont even have a look at your CV if you are not type rated! I have been told this by every single contract company operating from south Africa, They rather accept extremely low time pilots with the 'rich daddy's', than fork out for a conversion. It will never ever get to the point where they will close, because, they will just look outside of south africa for the pilots, its happened on the contract I am working on. The industry in the US has been that way for years, And so has the industry in europe.
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Why not follow the natural progression then, rather than try to short circuit the system? You're already on contract, punt for a type rating onto the next level. As for them not bonding and expecting you to be rated, that's utter crap. The market will dictate these things and at the moment it seems to favour the crews. Enough movement at the top (as is already happening) and they'll have to start bonding people to retain their services.
This has been discussed ad nauseum on here and elsewhere. Just do a search...
This has been discussed ad nauseum on here and elsewhere. Just do a search...
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Would love to move onto the next bigger aircraft, problem is I am on the biggest aircraft on the contract. Moving onto a bigger aircraft means changing operators! How many SA contract companys operate with foreign crew?PLENTY!reason: The foreign crew either have the rating already, or, with the exchange rate as it is, they can easily afford to pay for it! Operators would prefer SA crew, but with the industry as cut throat as it is, They would rather take rated crew, regardless whether they are South African or not! The contarct I work on is a big one, for a south african company, at least 70% of the crew are non- south african!Why? They were not all rated when they joined, but are willing to pay for the conversion!!!
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Im not trying to justify anything, just stating the way it is. It is already screwed up!!!!!!!That happened years ago, when the market was not booming the way it is today, when pilots had to pay for conversions!unfortunately that trend remains, you'll never be able to go back on that!!! I am not willing to get left behind purely to prove a point, The industry is not going to carry on the way it is at the moment for ever, everything works in cycles, its going to calm down, That I have no doubt, every pilots aim should be to get as far in the industry as possible, before that happens.
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Sounds like excuses and justification to me. No self respecting CP would hire someone who'd helped shaft his mates. Fortunately for you, very few CPs in SA have any self respect these days.
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Thats an extremely bold statement to make!!!My last and final take on this issue: Its been happening in the industry for years, a lot of pilots have learn't to accept it, a lot havent. I just hope(for there sake...)the pilots that havent, are flying the aircraft they want to, because with that mind set, its unlikely they'll be moving onto bigger aircraft in south africa. Maybe, If you are happy to live else where in the world, there is a better chance!Cheers all, got to go fly now, to make some more $$$ to fund further progression!
My last and final take on this issue: Its been happening in the industry for years, a lot of pilots have learn't to accept it, a lot havent. I just hope(for there sake...)the pilots that havent, are flying the aircraft they want to, because with that mind set, its unlikely they'll be moving onto bigger aircraft in south africa. Maybe, If you are happy to live else where in the world, there is a better chance!Cheers all, got to go fly now, to make some more $$$ to fund further progression!
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Pilots are still being bonded and progressing naturally. Your statement that it's impossible to progress without paying for a rating is absolute bull. Plenty of companies will bond you for training and those who want you to pay for your own rating are hardly worth working for. Your attitude is what contributes to the erosion of terms and conditions for crews in South Africa and merely makes it harder for all concerned to get a fair shake. If you feel it's OK to help further screw the industry, perhaps you should ask around for advice in a place like the Dunnunda and Godzone forums where this disease hasn't yet taken hold. Opportunities are even fewer in that part of the world but at least they don't take the short cut and shaft their colleagues. If you think it's OK to pay for a rating, you deserve to get shafted by the operators as you've left the door open for them to do so.
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It’s simple fly1981 you can’t get the job on bigger aircraft because your experience is not adequate. Unscrupulous operators will risk safety and put unqualified monkeys in seats to save money. Shoot me down if you will but this was a contributing factor in the HS748 crash in George a few years back. Read the transcripts before you comment.
I recently got a job on a medium weight AC by simply giving in a CV and sitting the interviews, bear in mind though, I was suitably qualified for the job. Guess what I never paid for the rating, just a bond from my side guarantying some loyalty. So your argument is flawed and rubbish.
I recently got a job on a medium weight AC by simply giving in a CV and sitting the interviews, bear in mind though, I was suitably qualified for the job. Guess what I never paid for the rating, just a bond from my side guarantying some loyalty. So your argument is flawed and rubbish.
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SRT
In the interest of clarification, Solenta Aviation are one of "those" companies that do not pay for ratings. Why ?... simple.
We employ over 140 pilots, and plan to recruit a whole lot more in the near future. That is job opportunities for a whole lot of pilots and engineers.
The stats are there, contract pilots want to build experience and get into the airlines. They want to fly the big stuff, and do not want to be away from home for 2 months at a time, fully understandable.
So, with a very high turnover, say 100 pilots a year, if we had to pay for ratings and bond them, we'd be spending in excess of 5-6 million rand a year to train pilots who then leave, and wouldn't care about a bond, given the opportunity to get into an airline.
We do not do shabby 1.5hr conversions ( 36 days training each for B1900 and ATR conversions g/s, cpt, sim,base training, line training ) and ALL our pilots, Captains AND co-pilots then do a minimum of 10 sectors line training. Our ratings are charged at cost, we are not a flight training school, that is not our business, making money out of conversions, we train pilots to meet our demand, and our required standard, and that is an investment in skills and people. We put a lot of resources into training, safety, engineering, and research and development, always striving to make our standards better.
In our opinion, bonds DON'T work, this has been proven over and over again. But, it's not good enough to stop there, so what DOES work.
There is no ideal situation, so we incentivise ( positive) rather than bond ( negative).
The pilot pays his/her rating, then, after 2 years, ( for the larger, more expensive aircraft ) we pay that rating back to them, over the next two years. So after 4 years, the idea is that the pilot has all the experience they need ( multi-engine turbine P1, ATPL ) and their rating is paid back by Solenta.
If they get that "jet" job within 2 years, they give us their month's notice ( some of them ) Solenta wish them well and we move on, no mess, no fuss.
As you correctly say, there may be a vaccuum as airlines recruit, and we have recruited with this in mind.
If SAA go ahead with redundancies, and I certainly hope that they dont, then there will be a lot of experience released to the SA and international market.( by the market, I mean Emirates, Cathay, Comair, SAX, Link, Nationwide etc... )
Fly 1981 has a point though, why try prove a point, and see pilots, junior to himself, who understand the market, and see opportunities, get the jump on him. To put your mind at ease, Solenta do not take people on, just because they have money for a rating. SRT is correct, what self respecting company would do that ?
The point made earlier in this thread, that this recruitment boom will not go on forever is also valid. Once things stabilise, and they will, with oil at over U$80 a barrel, and airlines having been recruiting for a couple of years now, some airlines restructuring, there will be a time when there aren't those jobs available anymore, and pilots, including contract pilots and the many, many freelance pilots, will be holding on to their jobs, so young inexperience pilots will, sadly, be at that stage where they'd sweep the floor just to get a look in ( all of us that have been in aviation long enough, have been there, aviation goes in boom and bust cycles - and is the FIRST thing that is affected by the economy ).
I wish Fly1981 the best of luck in what he is trying to achieve, if somethings worth having, its worth fighting for, don't give up.
CP Solenta Aviation
In the interest of clarification, Solenta Aviation are one of "those" companies that do not pay for ratings. Why ?... simple.
We employ over 140 pilots, and plan to recruit a whole lot more in the near future. That is job opportunities for a whole lot of pilots and engineers.
The stats are there, contract pilots want to build experience and get into the airlines. They want to fly the big stuff, and do not want to be away from home for 2 months at a time, fully understandable.
So, with a very high turnover, say 100 pilots a year, if we had to pay for ratings and bond them, we'd be spending in excess of 5-6 million rand a year to train pilots who then leave, and wouldn't care about a bond, given the opportunity to get into an airline.
We do not do shabby 1.5hr conversions ( 36 days training each for B1900 and ATR conversions g/s, cpt, sim,base training, line training ) and ALL our pilots, Captains AND co-pilots then do a minimum of 10 sectors line training. Our ratings are charged at cost, we are not a flight training school, that is not our business, making money out of conversions, we train pilots to meet our demand, and our required standard, and that is an investment in skills and people. We put a lot of resources into training, safety, engineering, and research and development, always striving to make our standards better.
In our opinion, bonds DON'T work, this has been proven over and over again. But, it's not good enough to stop there, so what DOES work.
There is no ideal situation, so we incentivise ( positive) rather than bond ( negative).
The pilot pays his/her rating, then, after 2 years, ( for the larger, more expensive aircraft ) we pay that rating back to them, over the next two years. So after 4 years, the idea is that the pilot has all the experience they need ( multi-engine turbine P1, ATPL ) and their rating is paid back by Solenta.
If they get that "jet" job within 2 years, they give us their month's notice ( some of them ) Solenta wish them well and we move on, no mess, no fuss.
As you correctly say, there may be a vaccuum as airlines recruit, and we have recruited with this in mind.
If SAA go ahead with redundancies, and I certainly hope that they dont, then there will be a lot of experience released to the SA and international market.( by the market, I mean Emirates, Cathay, Comair, SAX, Link, Nationwide etc... )
Fly 1981 has a point though, why try prove a point, and see pilots, junior to himself, who understand the market, and see opportunities, get the jump on him. To put your mind at ease, Solenta do not take people on, just because they have money for a rating. SRT is correct, what self respecting company would do that ?
The point made earlier in this thread, that this recruitment boom will not go on forever is also valid. Once things stabilise, and they will, with oil at over U$80 a barrel, and airlines having been recruiting for a couple of years now, some airlines restructuring, there will be a time when there aren't those jobs available anymore, and pilots, including contract pilots and the many, many freelance pilots, will be holding on to their jobs, so young inexperience pilots will, sadly, be at that stage where they'd sweep the floor just to get a look in ( all of us that have been in aviation long enough, have been there, aviation goes in boom and bust cycles - and is the FIRST thing that is affected by the economy ).
I wish Fly1981 the best of luck in what he is trying to achieve, if somethings worth having, its worth fighting for, don't give up.
CP Solenta Aviation
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At no point did I mention quickie ratings, only that paying for your type rating is not good practice and is an insidious weakening of the terms and conditions pilots work under in SA. If the need for a potential crewmember to pay for a rating were removed, selection would be based on the best man for the job, rather than the person willing to fork out the cash, whether Daddy is paying or not.
I stand by my comments that the practice is not good for the industry...
I stand by my comments that the practice is not good for the industry...