Want the JOB but will not pay 35k for it?

[Night Flight]

Jetstar/Virgin Blue/Tiger etc. I want the job but I refuse to pay for an endorsement! I see it as a conscience issue!

3500TT, 1000Turbine +1000ME/Command etc. etc.

What are my chances? Any comments? Anyone got an invite for an interview without ticking the "Yes I'll Pay" box?

And are there really enough of us out there taking a stand for this to really change? (Or am I just stubborn AND stupid!):ugh:

Regds,

NF

[RUMBEAR]

Good on ya NF. I'm with you. I have around 8000hrs, about 5000 turbine, including 2 types above 5700kg. I made the decision some time ago, while it would be nice to sit up the front of a B737 or A320, if it never happens because of the choices I have made then I wont have any regrets. To be honest flying medium sized turbo props isnt much different to jets (I guess?), theres just less pax behind you and the pay packet may be a little less (depending where you choose to work).
Lifestyle is better though.

There is only one reason companys charge for training these days anyway "BECAUSE THEY CAN". :=

Cheers

[Launchpad McQuack]

And are there really enough of us out there taking a stand for this to really change?

Count me in.

I've decided I'm not paying for an endorsement, and I'm not that keen on salary-sacrifice either. If enough people take a stand, surely it will produce the desired result? I know of several other drivers who are taking this stance as well.

LP

[Keg]

The important part is to ensure that the airlines know that you're taking the stand.

[saabsforever]

As a matter of principle its a great stand. I refused to pay for a rating when I should have got on with it and am still flying a Saab:{. Low time FOs on the Saab moved on and are now Jet Captains earning good money (In Europe), and the rating is long paid for. As an economic decision consider getting on a jet and seniority for Command, not much money in Props and most major Airlines only count Jet time:uhoh:. You cannot change the world and many of the 'do not pay for a type rating brigade' have motives, like reducing the competition. Bottom line i say-Stubborn and Stupid- like me:}

[Launchpad McQuack]

ensure that the airlines know


Agreed, but do you think they'd take us seriously Keg? I doubt it, not until the holding pool has dried up....and even then we have to contend with those individuals who will take advantage of the opportunity to advance their own careers faster with no regard for their colleagues...

This is one thread I'd like to see the majority support, it'd be good to know we're not the minority.

LP

[Launchpad McQuack]

I should have got on with it and am still flying a Saab


Yeah but saabsforever, who cares about jets when you OWN a 185?!

We could stop paying for endorsements and taking salary-sacrifices if we stuck together, but Pilots as a group don't appear to be very good at supporting each other as a majority, especially where career progression is involved. I may yet have to settle for salary-sacrifice :suspect:

LP

When I've owned a 185 or A36 I will die in peace.....

[Mr. Hat]

NF - with the way things are going the pay for endo or salary sacrifice thing will go as recruiting continues. Just depends on how long you are willing to wait.

["V"]

G'day lads,

I'm a huge believer in the idea of not paying for endorsements as a requirement of entry to an airline such as VB/JQ etc.

I'm relatively low time, 1200 TT flying twin diamonds for a survey company and get looked after very well here. Even when the time comes i still refuse to fork out 30k for a 737/A320 endorsement purely on principle. I know alot of blokes who are in my same situation who hold the same beliefs. Not to worry i think guys, if this becomes an industry standard maybe the airlines will open their pockets....................................................i 'll be long gone before that happens though!!!

[Night Flight]

MR. Hat,
I know its only a matter of time but I've gotta say I've taken a stand for a while and its getting harder and harder as I'm only getting older, friends and colleagues everywhere are getting "Jet Jobs" and a lot of them are younger and with a lot less experience!
And as Saabsforever said I could just bite the bullet and be a Jet Captain in a few years.

At this stage I'm willing to wait a little longer and I hoper there are enough of us to bring the change around sooner rather than later... but I'm sure I'm not the only one, right?

NF

[Fred Gassit]

Be very confident thats the line you wanna take, because I did the same and nearly every jet operator here locally has called and then passed.

My stubbornness has cost me dearly and I would hate to see someone who really wanted that jet job miss out for taking the same principled approach.

[404 Titan]

Night Flight

Mate you're only 27. You still have time on your side. I was 33 when I got my first jet job. I didn't have to fork out any dosh for the endorsement and I was on full wages from day one of training ie no half salary.:ok:

[Centaurus]

My stubbornness has cost me dearly and I would hate to see someone who really wanted that jet job miss out for taking the same principled approach

The aviation industry in Australia has no shortage of principled unemployed pilots.

[drdexter1975]

Why shouldnt you expect to pay for your own endorsement on a type that will directly increase your pay and employment prospects?

You guys that expect your employer to pay are dinosaurs! Only a matter of time b4 you are extinct!

[404 Titan]

drdexter1975

Maybe it is you that is the dinosaur? If you had done some research you would know that the number of airlines around the world that charge pilots for endorsement training has infact reduced over the last two years and that in many countries it is illegal to charge employees for training and/or bond them. A few countries to the north of Australia come to mind.

[astroboy55]

Charging for endorsements is rubbish. So is salary sacrifice. IMHO any employer that employs you, employs you for the skills/training that you currently have. If extra skills/training are required for your role, then your employer should be responsible for providing that training, not making you pay for it. However, i cant say that i dont agree with bonding. If you are lucky enough to get into a position that provides your training but bonds you, then i dont see any harm in them expecting a reasonable return of service.:ok:

[Aussie]

I was in Aus earlier this year, and they wanted me to pay for standardisation to instruct at a particular school... I said no.

Just got a gig on an Embraer 170 in Europe, no TR costs, and just a bond, which i think is fair enough!

Look outside the square, if the square doesnt offer your what ya after!

Aussie

[haughtney1]

Guys..stick to your guns...I suppose its easier said than done, but as aussie says, mayby you need to look elsewhere:ok:

[Aquaplaner]

Have you tried QANTAS, Cathay, Skywest or Alliance? They and many other operators around the world do not charge for the endorsement. Don’t live in hope and that Jetstar, Tiger and Virgin are going to drop the pay for your own endorsement thing. You are only setting yourself up for disappointment.
Do a search on these forums for companies that don’t make you pay for a job (I’m sure there has been threads on this topic before) make a list and work on them. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. If in the meantime any of the above companies drop the endorsement charge then add them to the list.:ok:

[Stick Pusher]

Skywest don't charge for endorsements and have a very high retention rate. I also hear they are after quite a few drivers! (but who isn't right now! :))

:ok:

SP

[Launchpad McQuack]

Can't say I have any problems with bonding...

...an employer should be able to expect a reasonable return-of-service after investing in it's employee's training, I believe that's a reasonable expectation and bonding simply assures that their investment doesn't walk out the door prematurely.

Having said that, I'd want to be very familiar with T&Cs before accepting bond.

LP

[Mr. Hat]

NF you are young mate so you have time....i know life ain't getting cheaper tho..

I'd focus on the ones that don't charge as pointed out in previous posts.

[Captain Sherm]

Nothing is free. Somehow, somewhere, by some hidden or visible mechanism you pay. Of course you do. I paid quite visibly through the nose for a 777 rating years and years ago, best thing I ever did. By far. Decades ago I used up all my long service leave to go back to uni. Again, great decision. Made all the difference. BIg deal. Probably cost me $5 a week to have had the very best jobs flying could ever offer. The very best.

Don't sacrifice your career by fighting a silly war you can't win. Do the numbers, invest in your future, let the ideologues squabble, have fun. If you spend your life in the hold or diverting to an alternate, you'll never get to a worthwhile destination.

Safe flying

An older, wiser, greyer Captain Sherm.

[ShockWave]

It's all about choices.
You have the choice, to pay and get the job or apply to some other airline and go work for them instead. If you really want to work for those scum bags but on your terms you will have to compromise or be disappointed in the short term.

IMHO, if you can scrape the money together,you should sign a contract, get the endorsement and training from them, then leave as soon as you have the hours to do so. Such companies have not earned nor deserve your loyalty.
They are sucking money from junior pilots who can hardly afford to rent an apartment or support their families and often still have debts from their initial training. The only way for most to pay this amount is to take out a loan!
Alternatively only the wealthy pilots get the jobs, and that is discrimination not equal opportunity!

Now if they were paying top money for pilots who are already endorsed, the salary sacrifice system may be the way to go. You would then end up doing ok eventually. But they don't pay good money and you will struggle to meet every debt, while they continue to suck you dry at every opportunity.

So as I said above, take out the loan, then get the f_ck out of there asap.
They have made this profession a nasty business in OZ and you should not hesitate to treat them the same way.

[Gear in transit]

I think you gotta put it into perspective, whilst I don't necessarily agree with paying for your own endorsement, I had no problem paying for my initial twin endorsement because I though it would better my career and keep me a bit more competative. As I don't really agree with some guys going and buying hours on a 210 to look better for a prospective employee up north, but hey people do it to get the edge.
Unfortunately my inital twin was about $1400, not $30grand so I do definately see why people would stand their ground.
I'm sure if a 737/a320 Endorsement was $1400 people would still complain on a principals ground but not nearly as much!

[Gnadenburg]

Last decade, when I joined the airlines, they paid for my training. So I bought an inner city terrace after a few months. A decade later and I know pilots who sell their assets to pay for airline training.There is significant wealth gap emerging.

Rich pilots. Poor pilots?

[Islander Jock]

Mate of mine just picked up a gig at one of the bigger Charter operators flying Dash-8. Not sure if they raised the matter first but he basically told them... you want me to fly for you fine - but if you want me to pay for an endorsement this meeting is over now!

He got the job, the endo and a good package :ok:

The times are definately changing. I had a chat to a Braz skipper the other day who said that they are also screaming out for pilots. :D

Wish it was like that when I was trying to get into a paying gig about 8 yrs ago :( I had to move onto less exciting but better paying sources of income.

[Mr. Hat]

Captain Sherm has some points. Don't bite your nose off to spite your face i suppose.

My advice try for QF CX and all the others first. If none of them come off then you need to think about what you want out of the career. You might be able to find a good turbo prop operator that won't charge you a cent. But for some the Jet job is the goal..

[Aussie]

Thanks Frozo,

As you can see, i decided to go the Jungle Jet...

Aussie

[Mr.Buzzy]

Hi everyone,
I'm currently working on the Bell St Caltex servo doing nights. Id love to be a commercial pilot someday. Do you think I should sit back and wait for an Essendon charter company to pay for my CPL and MECIR?

I'm just not sure if I should change to suit the industry or if I should hold onto my pipedreams and keep working in this servo for the next 10 years while I watch everyone else getting ahead by "buying" a CPL.

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz

[Soulman]

keep working in this servo for the next 10 years

If you can survive 10 years on Bell St - I'll pay for your CPL! :}

[galdian]

Firstly - nice to see all the girls and boys playing fair and nice; doesn't always happen on Pprune! :ok:

Some great advice and thoughts from both sides of the divide, a bit in between but as not as much as there SHOULD be.

I am ready to leave the game should circumstances and lotto kick in, have thoroughly enjoyed playing but it is a very, very different game today then when I started.

Just some thoughts:
- 6 years ago after 9/11 there was an oversupply of pilots, now there is a (perceived) undersupply. Life is a sign curve, it is not impossible that in a few years, for whatever the cause, the demand decreases;
- experience is far more portable, like it or not the world IS opening up to movement of employment opportunities;
- with that comes the potential for individuals to ask where they would be willing to live (for money, lifestyle experience etc) Vs "never leave Oz" - both very valid arguments, no question!;
- having had a good run I have to accept that for whatever reasons the recruitment procedures in some of the airlines overseas and most of the local Oz airlines has changed - and individuals have to decide where they are placed and act accordingly.

I dealt with what was available in my day - and others can only deal with what is available in their day and whether I think it is good or bad is of no relavance to myself (sadness perhaps, but nothing more.)

The minority (I believe) are in it purely for the flying, and not for the "money" but because of "what's next..??"
Not because it was bigger but "different."

So decide what is good for you, your family life, your career - and act accordingly - and have no reason to criticise or (overly) judge others.

Have to finally agree with the intent of one particular poster - I know my personal professional desire has not died, however my allegiance to an airline died on 12/09/01.
If you DO pay for your endorsement it is yours, not theirs, therefore have no qualms about moving on should you desire.

Cheers
galdian :ok:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

A CPL Pilot has a finite life.

We all have a maximum earning timeline after which either a medical issue or age will restrict each and every one of us from Command in the pointy end.

Whilst I applaud the principled out there - the reality is that we should all try and make the most of what we have (youth and a valid medical) while we have got it.

Do what you have to do - as long as it doesn't screw or white-ant anyone else or the companies you work for.

[Bula]

Fellas I think we all know it comes down to money in the end.. the ultimate root of all evil.. especially in aviation.

All I can say is that by paying upfront for my endorsement, doing the numbers, I'm about $500 000 - $750 000 min better off over my life time.

For those that arn't paying, good for you, but you might as well throw $500 000 on a number playing roulette because they are the odds you are gambling with .... and there are plenty of people out there who think the same which means you may find yourselves well and truly out of luck.

[Towering Q]

Do you think I should sit back and wait for an Essendon charter company to pay for my CPL and MECIR?


Yes, definitely sit back and wait. But don't limit yourself to Essendon charter companys, keep an eye on Moorabbin, Parafield and Bankstown.

But just remember, when it does happen you will be taking a drop in pay.:{

"Any flybys with that sir?":cool:

[whatsthatbigredlightmean?]

Don't forget at jetstar with the new AWA's if you fail a check you have to pay a fine!!

[blow.n.gasket]

How much did you end up having to pay?

[Launchpad McQuack]

Cheers for the insight guys, and Galdian - thank you for your insight from the other end of the tunnel.

The views and opinions expressed in this thread have certainly left one with something to think about...being principled could be a very expensive stance. Having said that, if we ALL decided to stop paying for endorsements then surely it must send a message to Management?? I know, I know....it's like expecting world peace.

Rich-Fine-Green - you point out an interesting consideration...especially for me at the start of my career and being nearly a decade older than most of my colleagues. Those friends I have from days-of-old who are currently flying are mostly Captains with the regionals or F/Os on heavy metal, and I wonder if I am 'cutting my nose off to spite my face' as one poster put it, which could put me well into my thirties before I start earning a reasonable salary...:{

Having said that, those operators I'd like to get a gig with are paying for endorsements, so I'll try going down that road before resorting to other options.

Many thanks for the balanced and considerate responses guys, I was expecting to get slaughtered....NF cheers for posting this thread.

LP

[Outtahere]

5 airline jet type ratings with 2 airlines in the last 10 years- all paid for by my employers. Pay for training- only if you are desperate or below average.

Good on you Night Flight.

[bogdantheturnipboy]

The problem is that GA is so f#@ked up pilots want out. Flying pieces of junk around the country for scums for **** money, you'll just about do anything to get out. Rex and the like are clearly only marginally better.

Good on all you pilots who refuse to pay. This is the perfect time for pilots to stick together and refuse. If every pilot refused, they would be forced to pay for the training, like they bloody well should.


DON'T PAY !!!

[galdian]

Outtahere

Obviously you got your first jet rating 10 years ago, it's like getting your first flying job - from that you can build and grow.

You dealt with what was available then and that has got you to where you are now.

Others have to deal with what is available now and, for better or worse, it is different from your day and mine.

I believe you can be grateful for what was available in "your" day and where it has taken you and allow people to make decisions based on what is available in "their" day and where that might take them.

[404 Titan]

galdian

I think what Outtahere is saying is that those same airlines that didn't require him to pay for endorsements over the last 10 years still don't require pilots to pay for endorsements today. The reality today is that world wide less airlines require you to pay for your endorsement than five years ago. It is only a matter of time before airlines in Australia will have to follow the world wide trend and the crewing problems become more accute.

[galdian]

404 Titan

Fair enough when you are talking world wide however as always the concept of "God's own country" comes into play when talking about our special corner of the world.

Paying for your endorsement is not the way it should be however, if I were a betting man, I would bet it will not essentially change - maybe tinkered with a bit but still remain a cost to the pilot one way or another.

Up to each individual to decide what they want out of their aviation career, where they want it (or are willing to live) and what they are willing/not willing to do to achieve their aims and goals.

Even Qantas proper are getting into the game - if the rumour is true that new 737 Captains will be on reduced pay then they are effectively paying for their "Command" endorsement.
Very surprised to see that in Qantas proper and does make me wonder how long before the Sim/training system is made more cost effective like other airlines in Australia. :eek:

Can't happen?? Wanna make a bet??? ;)

[Swanie]

Just a question based on a few of the more recent changes I've observed throughout my rather limited industry experience..
Recently I'm sure we are all aware that more and more pilots are paying for TR/jobs (thus this thread) and entry requirements of REX QF-link ect, falling allowing operators to hire relatively low houred pilots and get payed in the process..

My question is this, will making a stand, and forcing operators to fund TR and training costs drive the entry requirements back up to where they previously were? Meaning that new pilots will be forced to stay in the bush/instructional flying area for a few extra years building their hours to levels currently not needed?

Be nice:)

[Gnadenburg]

"I will be better off" excuse to justify walking over other people to get their jet job. Saying "I will be $500,000 to $750,000 better off by paying" is crap. If everyone didn't pay, and the airlines were forced to pay for the training, then you would have been $530,000 to $780,000 better off.

Yeah.

I didn't understand that post either. How is a professional better off by paying for his training?

I didn't pay for airline my training. Bought an inner city terrace instead. On that one deal only, I am six figures better off compounded a decade later.

The pilot who pays for his training, has utilised approximately an entire year of savings which could have been invested or enjoyed. With a view to the very poor First officer salaries you get in an LCC.

Now consider it over a career. How many more times will this pilot pay for his training or buy a job through an endorsement? You would be destitute at worst and far from financially independant at best; and as a consequence vulnerable to accepting whatever is presented by employers during negotiations.

Rich pilots. Poor pilots.