A request to To the self appointed 'Guard' (121.5) Police [Archive]

7th Sep 2007, 13:01

Correct Zebedie,

Over France this morning a guy calls the agent on guard. Someone says "you're on guard". Said guy then passes ETA, specials, fuel required and requests stand number :rolleyes: "You're on guard" again comes out of the ether and lo he repeats his request ...... :ugh:

So I politely and deliberately slowly said "You are transmitting on guard".

Someone who presumably has read this thread then asks me if I'm the "Guard Police" :hmm:

And another quips in with "but your transmitting on guard". I told them to grow up and it all went quite.

So I agree that it can be annoying when everyone jumps on someone who does transmit on guard - BUT when there is evidently a MUPPET who is not listening and proceeds to trot out his life history (twice) a gentle reminder is in order. What is unacceptable is for others who think they're some sort of comedian to then start piping up with inane comments.

Your supposed to be Professional pilots for christs sake! Start behaving like one.

A4 :*

bracebrace!

7th Sep 2007, 13:51

Monitoring Guard last week I heard the following:

"Thomas Cook Boeing 757 Registration G-*** zis is ze French Airforce Mirage on ze port side, do you copy on 121.5?"

No comments from the Guard Police. Guess they were all waiting for the response from the TopJet crew... :eek:

binbombayanback

7th Sep 2007, 19:20

Was monitoring a similar intercept in Northern France last week but understood it to be Mirage trying to contact an 'N' reg. Quite a stressful time for the intercept A/C when 2 x easyjets popped in for a chat with each other on 121.5! Pxxs poor performance from some alleged professional pilots!

xetroV

7th Sep 2007, 20:09

I heard that Topjet exchange. I was somewhat surprised that the fighter apparantly did not know the 757's callsign, so it took a few tries before the Topjet crew realized that in fact they were that "757 aircraft on flight level XXX, position YYYY". I think the situation was professionally dealt with by both parties - goes to show the importance of the guard frequency.

"You're on guard" may sound clear and consise, but I have heard several instances where the guy transmitting on the wrong frequency in fact took it for "go ahead", and started an even longer erroneous transmission with ETA's and fuel and wheelchair passengers and what not.

People don't realize that "you're on guard" is actually aviation slang used mainly by native english speakers (and, for some strange reason, by grumpy Germans). Despite being a longer transmission, "<Callsign>, you are transmitting on 121 decimal 5" might be a lot more effective, if the need to play guard-police really gets the better of you.

ZeBedie

7th Sep 2007, 23:51

As a sergeant in the guard police, I've accepted the criticisms made here. In future the call to Servisair will get a "go ahead", followed by a "roger, company ops request you divert to XYZ". Well if they're really that stupid...:ugh:

SUNTURK 69

8th Sep 2007, 10:21

haha that's a good one. I hope I will be there to hear that one developing:D

4HolerPoler

8th Sep 2007, 16:10

I've never so heard so much crap spoken on 121.5 as in the UK at the moment - I'm not past there often but have heard numerous weekend warriors bleating that they're "unsure of our position" - trollip! Learn to nav or buy a hundred buck GPS. 121.5 is for emergencies - keep it that way.

Regretfully there's so much chatter that I've taken to muting the volume on 21.5 in order not to have it interfere with the control frequency.

4HP

737OPR

8th Sep 2007, 16:19

I've done it myself accidentally, transmit on guard, no response, look down, Oeps, wrong frequency. In other words, guys will figure it out quick enough without the guard police. Now if a guy keeps repeating the occasional call to ops (like say 3 or 4 times), then, maybe a friendly reminder is in order. But the guard police immediate response is generally speaking just as annoying as the chit chat.

ChristiaanJ

8th Sep 2007, 17:02

Diddley Dee,
You were in on the earlier thread, too, no?

I was waiting for the complaints about "weekend warriors" and practice calls to start.

Déjà vu all over again, what ?

Admiral346

8th Sep 2007, 18:20

Every single flight I take, there are multiple "You're on guard" calls I hear, even though I never heard the one being the reason for the police call. The range circle you have when transmitting is never taken into account by the policemen... There actually might be several transmitted for a single accidental call to maintenance on 121,5.
Why not let ATC watch over guard freq, it's them who are responsible for it.
All you guard police men are doing more harm then good with your calls...

Nic

Danasutra

8th Sep 2007, 19:15

Talking about 'ze french'....its quite typical the number 2 box on 121.5 gets cluttered over French Airspace with morons who think they are funny and whistle for an hour or two...(very typical :yuk:) Most often the reason to have the box switched off (although temporarely)
Sometimes I would like to shove a baguette in those funny people, especially when you try to do your profession (and no, its not MY 'baguette', but they can choose which side they want it)
BTW: Can I vote here for the international ENGLISH ATC-discipline??!
Does my head in :ugh:

opnot

8th Sep 2007, 19:21

4HOLEPOLAR
As a controller, if some one calls me unsure of their position I would class that as an emergency, it is a call from someone is looking for help.
you may need help in the future , whatever your emergency might be

fmgc

8th Sep 2007, 19:30

It is standard training for a PPL that if you are lost and can not resolve your position that you contact 121.5 (well it was when I used to instruct all those years ago and used to ask DnD for a practice PAN with all my students).

This is standard and I think should remain so.

I found it very irritating the other night, couple for Germans or Dutch (I am not a good linguist) were chatting for ages on 121.5. I know that it wasn't an emergency as they were blowing raspberries at each other.

Just out of interest why is it called "Guard"?

nonemmet

8th Sep 2007, 19:59

The only guard police who irritate me, are the ones who must spend the whole sector with 121.5 selected (for tx) on their radio control panel, and who must have a finger permanently poised over the PTT. How else can they make their "on guard" transmission within a millisecond of the unfortunate pilot transmitting (usually by mistake) on 121.5? Get a life guys.
fmgc, "guard" is I believe the military (NATO?) term for the emergency frequency.

Danasutra

8th Sep 2007, 20:06

For all I care, 121.5 is for emergencies/lost freq....123.45 for chitchat :hmm:

Ian Brooks

8th Sep 2007, 21:36

Would a quick call to Check your frequency not suffice?

Brian Abraham

9th Sep 2007, 01:18

why is it called "Guard"?

One of the stated missions of the US Coast Guard is,

Maritime Safety: Eliminate deaths, injuries, and property damage associated with maritime transportation, fishing, and recreational boating. The Coast Guard's motto is Semper Paratus—(Always Ready), and the service is always ready to respond to calls for help at sea.

Taking a punt, would it date to the maritime days and mariners referring to monitoring "Guard"? ie Coast Guard.

blue up

9th Sep 2007, 06:27

123.45 insn't for chitchat, though. Is it?

IIRC it is also an ASR frequency in parts of europe and is only a chitchat freq over the pond etc.

I stand (sit) to be corrected.

Navigator33

9th Sep 2007, 08:47

May I also complain about the Germans who at 5 UTC have to check ALL their frequencies on 121.5?
Remember back in the day shooting tacan to ils with the guard freqs selected on at (high) volume because our IPs wanted it so. There goes the concentration :ugh:

Re-Heat

10th Sep 2007, 12:07

I've never so heard so much crap spoken on 121.5 as in the UK at the moment - I'm not past there often but have heard numerous weekend warriors bleating that they're "unsure of our position" - trollip! Learn to nav or buy a hundred buck GPS. 121.5 is for emergencies - keep it that way.
Without a "practice" frequency as on UHF to keep 243 free, 121.5 is rightly used by PPLs unsure of their position, if not in contact with another unit. We all started learning to nav somewhere...

bushbolox

10th Sep 2007, 13:41

I was pulled up the other day in a millisecond by some tosser who followed my transmission with a "your on guard". The error of my ways notwithstanding i politley pointed out that i had in fact wrongly transmitted my first call on vhf after oceanic on 12345 instead of the atc freq.
I emphasised that I was not in fact on guard but on 12345 and advised him in my best anglo saxon of the "general manner in which i wished him to proceed" off :thanking him for his inter ference at the same time....what a ****:E

Lost in Saigon

11th Sep 2007, 12:18

Not long ago I heard this on 121.5.......... :D

Airline "ABC123": "Shanwick, ABC123 Position"

Gaurd Police: "You're on gaurd!"

3rd party: "SO ARE YOU"

Jetstream Rider

11th Sep 2007, 12:34

Worst I've heard...

"G-XXXX student pilot, solo navex, unsure of position, request position and heading to XXXX"

millisecond later
"you're on guard!"

"G-XXXX, london centre do you read?"

"you're on guard!"

Then had to speak to ATC and lost what happened next.

It has been shown that early use of 121.5 for position and for training fixes has saved people's lives, so I am well up for people practicing fixes (when its quiet) and for knowing that the absolutely excellent service that D and D offer is there. I have stood and watched two emergencies being dealt with in D and D and it was very instructive.

The CAA reckon 75% of inappropriate 121.5 chat comes form commercial ops, so its not the little chaps we ought to be worried about.

Carmoisine

11th Sep 2007, 12:49

PLOC (Prolonged Loss of Communication) incidents are an issue at our Company. We had a recent one in which guard was switched off for reasons mentioned below and which is at the centre of the the problem of which you speak. Our Chief Pilot requires us to monitor 121.500mhz and it just pisses some of us off to the back teeth Diddley Dee. I just want you to understand the pressures we are under on the other side of the fence

We as Pilots are caught between a rock and a hard place.

On one hand we have useless Spanish controllers, for a good example, who will quite happily let us blast through FIR boundaries and out of Radio Range which ensues in a fighter interception. This could quite possibly be fatal to certain peoples career path if working for the wrong company as we feel we are. We don't have Selcal or Sat Comms if we do find ourselves in this situation. No second chances in other words.

On the other hand 121.500 has now become utterly unusable over Europe due to the constant volume of spurious traffic on it. A colleague recently wrote what appears below on a company website stating his frustration, which I agree with 100%.

The situation stinks. These morons blocking the frequencies having casual chats are now not only interfering with other Airlines monitoring guard, the secondary effect is that they are now inducing people to join them. I mean that too, it boils the blood listening to these morons such that it turns respectable Pilots into "Guard Police".

When is somebody going to crack down on this misuse and take ownership for stamping it out?

I read this FCI this morning and am feeling a bit lost about it.
These incidents are happening more and more and not just at XXXair. We have been instructed to monitor 121.500mhz which is, of course, best practice and something I have certainly been taught since before I went solo for the first time on my PPL course. The problem is that there is just never ending chatter on the frequency. Take a flight from somewhere in England to somewhere south of the Alps:

1. 2 Practice Pan calls in UK, which they are quite legally entitled to make in the UK. I had to have an ATC instruction repeated as they conflicted.

2. France. Multiple calls. Should we rename it "121.500mhz- The Air France alternate company Freq" ? Plenty of "Bonjour Francois, ca va?" "Bien Merci, 123.450"

3. Germany. A very persistent and thorough ground controller at a regional airport, making multiple checks on all freqs: " Ya! Dis is xxxx ground, VHF ground test, hhhowwwwt"

4. Switzerland. "Hi Moritz/Franz/Hanz, Jim/Bob/jack here, are you on gaurd? "Yeah, go ahead" "Hi, just wondering if you were working today?" "Yeah just 4 sectors, blah blah blah" I kid you not!

5. Italy. More of the same as in No.4. Chat, Chat, Chat.

6. Generally.ELT/Distress Beacons being tested all day everyday. On, off, on, off, on, off. What ever happened to testing at the top of the hour? Spanish Pilots same thing as French Pilots as per point 2. Call your mates on 121.500mhz have a quick chat, then when you get shouted at, transfer over to 123.450mhz. The brigade of morons calling Operations. "Frankfurt Operations, Delta 3411" 2/3 calls in response "YOU ARE ON GAURD!!" Oblivious, Deltaman carries on "Yeah, uhmmm, off Block time 22, Fuel...."

All this set against a backdrop of possibly the most congested frequencies in the World. So what happens? We just can't put up with the noise and hassle and guard gets deselected. Then people get a little tired and inattentive and they get a fighter escort after 38 mins out of communication. I can see how it happens.

So, 121.500mhz is not a solid option. Marking the FIR borders on the PLOG. It seems to work and I have caught a few Spanish controllers trying to let me enter someone else's FIR without a handover. The problem is that sometime their are multiple FIR boundaries located within a few minutes of each other. Maastricht and Switzerland are examples. Added to the this you can receive a handover up to 100 miles before a border so you still can be confused as to whether you are with the right sector.

Solutions? HF Selcal would seem like an ideal solution. A chime and a flashing light if it all goes wrong. Very expensive though, it would cost many millions of Euro to fit to the fleet. It would also be very handy to contact the company instead of having to radio ahead to a base when you are overhead in the cruise.

Any thoughts?

dustyprops

11th Sep 2007, 13:55

Guard police do my nut!!! What amazes me is freaks that get on the r.t. with 'you're on guard!' when sometimes they are refering to someone who isn't even speaking the same language as them. I can only imagine how many times they have interfered with something, that maybe is meant to be taking place on 121.5. I wish they would shut up and find a new hobby, because the 'guard police' are without doubt, the most irritating voices on the air. Seriously though, please, shut up!!

Julian Hensey

11th Sep 2007, 14:02

Is it not time that radios have the facility to announce into your own headset (and not on frequency) as you press transmit on 121.5 either a distinctive tone or voice saying "121.5 transmit" or similar. You could sit in the cockpit looking down at the frequency selector and feel a chump, but no one would know :)

Doug the Head

11th Sep 2007, 14:09

Is it a British 'thing' to police 121,5?

No matter where you fly in Europe, you go it's always some nasal Oxford accented voice telling someone that "You're on guaaaard!" :hmm:

Agaricus bisporus

11th Sep 2007, 14:13

I must be missing something here...
Here is a thread about misuse - grossly unprofessional misuse - of 121.5 by tossers calling each other for a chat, whistling, blowing raspberries etc and yet all the slamming and lambasting is being directed at the poor ordinary joes who are keen to have a quiet emergency frequency in the background and get frustrated enough to speak out.
Do we stop kids littering in the streets by keeping quiet, or by sharply correcting them? Well?
Do we blame the "shushers" at the theatre, or the **** who is chatting loudly?
Lets get a realistic grip on who are the real problem here, and they surely aren't (in the main) the "Guard Police".
If ATC do nothing, ie are negligent, in enforcing correct use of guard then surely someone else has to? Do other nations have an auto-triangulation system on guard like the UK? If not why not, and if so why don't they use it to identify and prosecute the abusers, whistlers and chatters? I seldom notice guard abuse in UK airspace. I wonder if Drayton Centre's D and D cell's triangulator is the reason for that?

some nasal Oxford accented voice

Man, there sure are some unashamed bigots here on Prune!

Final 3 Greens

11th Sep 2007, 14:26

I've never so heard so much crap spoken on 121.5 as in the UK at the moment - I'm not past there often but have heard numerous weekend warriors bleating that they're "unsure of our position" - trollip! Learn to nav or buy a hundred buck GPS. 121.5 is for emergencies - keep it that way.

Yet again, a so called professional pilot displays ignorance of the air law covering airspace he operates in.

Learn the local air law or stay out of UK airspace - keep it that way.

RoyHudd

11th Sep 2007, 15:35

Chill, chaps.

We all get irritated by misusers of the 121.5 freq, but lost SPL/PPL's genuinely need help. Just wish they could be brief and clear when they issue a PAN and request a fix. Long transmissions are only justified if requested by ATC to enable triangulation. The lost sheep must understand the need to use the channel briefly to permit other emergency/urgency traffic access.

Also I do wish they could navigate better. It's not that difficult, surely, in VMC?

Final 3 Greens

11th Sep 2007, 15:46

Also I do wish they could navigate better. It's not that difficult, surely, in VMC?

Roy

I know where you are coming from and since I got my licence in the early 90s I have never bust CAS and only used a training fix once when I couldn't see a waypoint due haze and was aware that I was near the edge of the EGSS zone.

But if you put a SPL or low hour PPL in some of the rubbish that is out there for hire and then let them make their way around SE England using only a stop watch and chart, with every more complex CAS, it is almost inevitable that some will get lost.

I think it is difficult to navigate in VMC for low houred pilots and I believe that the PPL syllabus is inadequate for the 2000s, where there is more CAT and controlled airspace.

I was taught VOR tracking on my PPL and then consolidated that afterwards, before embracing GPS too and learning how to operate that properly.

It is quite dodgy to over rely on any one nav system and I believe that the PPL syllabus should be revised to introduce GPS to back up ded reckoning and pilotage - the latter which can be challenging from 2,000 feet on a hazy day.

I do understand the CAT frustration with the impact of training fixes and pans.

Say again s l o w l y

11th Sep 2007, 16:04

The subject of training fixes comes up regularily on here and I tend to go with the advice from D and D themselves.

They want students to use it , so that they get a clear understanding of what capabilities are on the other end of the R/T. They also realise that if people have used it before, they are less likely to be intimidated by it and use it as necessary. It gives them something to do and helps keep them sharp.

Any "professional" pilot who has a problem with this, is daft IMHO. It may be annoying occasionally, but no person has ever died from annoyance, whereas plenty have from ignorance. I know a few people who owe their continuing existance on thios planet to relays on 121.5. I'm only grateful that the crews of the airliners that passed on their messages were listening out, rather than getting het up and turning it off.

Turn it down if it gets in the way, but turn it back up again afterwards.

To the idiots who use 121.5 for chat purposes, please hand in your R/T licences, because you don't deserve to keep them.

Backwater

12th Sep 2007, 04:48

4HP. I do the same. Approaching London I stop listening to 121.5. - Too distracting.
Of greater concern is sometimes I have to do the same thing over the gulf as it's full of interference.

brownstar

12th Sep 2007, 11:28

In reply to the thread starter.

There is a lot of radio traffic on 121.5 for all the wrong reasons. People testing beacons not at the top of the hour, people calling there handing agents, people calling what they think is the next en route controller.

Alot of the time we don't know where the transmittions come from, and a quick call "your transmiiting on guard" usually stops them from repeating the error.

we want them to stop there transmittion as it is very, very distracting - it's like having two people speak to you at exactly the same time, your only going to pick up one conversation.

the other day there was someone blabbing on in french on the frequency over france, 90 % of the people monitoring 121.5 would have turned the volume down so as not to be distracted. Someone told the person that they were " on guard " and a french controller came back and said that he was dealing with an emergency.

I do accept your point about being told of by the guard police, but most guys should and do recognise an emergency on the frequency if the correct terminoligy is used, and the english language, there may be situations where it is preferable to use another language to aid the person in distress.

We as pilots do just need to take a split second more to check the box and frequency before transmitting.

And as for the guys and girls who muck about on the frequency transmitting songs, your in the wrong job mate - the other person in the cockpit should have a word with them and get it stopped.

Benix

12th Sep 2007, 12:11

seems like I'm in one of the only airlines whose SOP is to not bother monitor 121.5... Would just like to add to the previous posts in saying to those slagging off students and PPLs what would you rather, a few seconds of speech or a G/A cos he's just blundered into the TMA? Its us in the commercial world who cause the majority of the problems!

swordsman

13th Sep 2007, 10:03

I think it fair to say that VFR navigation is considerably harder than IFR navigation.

Beavis and Butthead

13th Sep 2007, 14:16

123.45 is in use by the French. Heard a conversation on this frequency over Northern France last year which was interrupted by an annoyed French controller advising that it was a sector frequency. For use on the Atlantic only it seems.

I've no problem with the use of 121.5 for any genuine help that he/she may require but constant aggressive "YOU'RE ON GUARD" just makes it worse. Also, surely practise PAN's can be rehearsed in the flying school. If you get your RT licence by a practical test indoors I cannot see why a similar simulation cannot be done for these. Fact is that it is a nuisance and often results in 121.5 not being monitored over busy UK airspace in order to merely hear ATC instructions. Just a thought :hmm:

Hasher

13th Sep 2007, 19:29

Hi
What does this on Guard thing mean and where does it come from...

Ta

snooky

13th Sep 2007, 23:40

I heard the events described in the original posting of this thread and fully agree with the controllers displeasure at the "guard police".
It was obvious that the lost student was under considerable stress, and the controllers' attempts to assist were hindered by these individuals.
I agree that accidental transmissions on 121.5 block the frequency, but only for a very minute percentage of the time. Far more damaging are the constant interruptions when assistance is genuinely required.
"Guard police" are a pain in the neck, and should realise that they may not have the full picture when carrying out their constabulary duties.
Well done to the controller concerned for dealing forcefully with these interfering individuals at the time.

Diddley Dee

14th Sep 2007, 09:53

Snooky. I thank you for your comments, as someone who heard the exchange you obviously appreciate that inappropriate comments on guard do not help the controller or do anything to settle any pilot who has called on 121.5 for assistance.

I dont intend to get embrolied in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.

1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & recieves a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his speel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after acouple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a contoller or when I am flying, if I dont get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.

2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.

3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they werent confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go arounds.

4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".

In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!

DD

DryV1

14th Sep 2007, 11:14

Hi,
Just thought I would add a little story to this thread. Happened back in the late '80's. 0100Z Flying across the desert from Dubai to Cyprus. No VHF then just poor HF.

Had loss of cabin pressure requiring emergency descent to FL140 (MSA), and diversion to CAI.

Tried to get clearance from Jeddah on HF but no reply to Mayday call, so made Mayday on 121.5 advising all traffic that I was making emergency descent. Almost immediately an american voice said " Get off the frequency,you are on guard". Just what I needed!!

A very nice Speedbird pilot explained to him that I was making an emergency transmission and what didn't he understand about the word Mayday repeated three times. He then copied the rest of my message and gave me a Mayday relay to Jeddah.

Just wish that I had got the americans callsign.

JW411

14th Sep 2007, 15:01

Diddley Dee:

I really do think this nonsense has gone on long enough. I have already suggested on a previous thread that you should name and shame the perpetrators of this childish behaviour. Until you do, nothing will ever change.

In the first instance, you need to address the Flight Operations Director of the company concerned. If that does not do the trick, then you should copy your complaint to the CAA.

There is no reason on earth why you and your colleaugues should have to put up with such infantile and unprofessional behaviour. You cannot reason with cretins.

Diddley Dee

14th Sep 2007, 18:26

I'd like to clarify a point I made above. When I refer to naming & shaming, I do not mean London Centre going out on 121.5 & transmitting at the time "Wobblegob airways 123 please cease tx on guard", we would then be contributing to the problem ourselves. I am only referring to when an ac actively interferes with our operational use of 121.5, then I think we must consider identifying the alledged "offender" and filing against the ac. One thing that London Centre are not nor do we wish to become, is the ATC "guard Police".

DD

cheesycol

14th Sep 2007, 23:02

Coming across the Irish Sea this eve D&D on 121.5 tries to raise a Swiss a/c. Immediately after the first transmission, an american voice replies "you're on guard". No Sh*t sherlock.

Swiss replies after second attempt - problem solved.

Americans like to play police - a lot. Would rarely hear a Brit "policing" the airwaves. Taking cover.......

Say again s l o w l y

15th Sep 2007, 00:34

Unfortunately Diddley Dee, if ATC don't become the "guard police" who else will?

I'm fed up with hearing the constant calls on 121.5. If it is a mistaken call to the handling agents, then so be it. We've all stuffed up R/T calls at some point, but as has been mentioned before, the "guard police" can make it worse. Shut up and let the person learn from their mistake rather than compunding the issue.

Just have a bit of discipline and keep your mike shut unless you need to make a call.

zkdli

15th Sep 2007, 06:41

Hi DD
Check your PMs:)

TotalBeginner

15th Sep 2007, 18:42

What I fail to understand is why this frequency needs to be monitored by traffic who are not declaring an emergency or need assistance. What am I missing?

foxmoth

15th Sep 2007, 19:19

TB,
there are a couple of reasons to monitor Guard, one is if you are for some reason not listening out on the correct frequency for any reason, this might be because you have turned the volume down whilst doing a PA, selected the incorrect frequency and gone out of range of the old one or you could be a VFR aircraft about to stray into CAS in these cases ATC or a intercepting aircraft will try and contact you on Guard.
Another reason to monitor is to listen out for any other aircraft in trouble, it may be they are on the ground or in the sea and unable to contact ground services direct, an aircraft at height will be able to pick up their tx and relay it on to the emergency services.:8

Duchess_Driver

15th Sep 2007, 19:20

TB

121.5 is monitiored on Box 2 to allow for an aircraft to be contacted if they or the controller misses the initial (or subsequent) calls from ACC. Hopefully by having this 'standard' frequency set on the other box the Typhoons won't get scrambled to often!

That's my take on it.

DD.

Check 6

16th Sep 2007, 01:31

http://www.ihateitall.com/forum/images/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

funfly

16th Sep 2007, 12:05

I attended a talk by our D&D people and they asked us (GA pilots) to occasionally do practice pans, not only to get familiar ourselves but to give their controllers practice as well.
Has something changed?

Some of the professional pilots should understand that 121.5 is an emergency frequency and not an 'common' channel. It relies on a) being manned and b) being uncluttered.

I accept that some smart*ss calling "guard" or anything else is only adding to the clutter - however if I started to (mistakenly) transmit on 121.5 I would appreciate someone telling me that I was on the wrong frequency.

Shiny side down

16th Sep 2007, 15:19

I found most recently, that the constant 'you're on guard' comments simply serve as a means for me to set a sensible volume level on that box, such that it doesn't become obtrusive, but does allow me to 'monitor' for anything out of the ordinary.

What I have found odd is the lack of helpful response when someone calls on 121.5 to raise some assistance, i.e lost comms (with a particular freq), and resorts to using guard (rightly or wrongly) to establish contact with someone/anyone to gain further assistance.

BEagle

16th Sep 2007, 16:09

Wouldn't "wrong box!" be better than "Guard" which can be confused with "Go ahead"?

'Guard', as far as I'm aware, is a military term. Our radios were marked 'TR+G'; this meant in addition to Tx and Rx on the selected frequency, you also had an emergency receiver swithced on. Far less chance of mistakenly transmitting on the emergency frequency. A pity that civvie people-tubes don't have a similar facility as it would lessen the chances of mistaken transmissions.

Inappropriate transmissions on 123.45, such as people asking for rounders or kev-ball scores, who's hiring and what the Ts and Cs are used to be a pain in the proverbial. But cluttering up 121.5 is inexcusable - genuine mistakes can happen but those over-eager to play policeman should keep quiet! If the Tx is repeated a couple of times, perhaps "Wrong box" wouldn't be unreasonable?

Was once flying one of HM's jets out to the Mediterrannean. Someone kept keying and blowing in the mike on 243 MHz. Eventually an annoyed German voice came up with "Vill whoeffer is doing ze blojob on 243 please go avay!" That worked!

A plummy voice once announced on a mil ops frequency "This is Kittyhawk blah, from our senior passenger (HM the Q), could you tell us how her horse did in the 3.30 at Cheltenham today?". Quick as a flash, one of the lads said to the Ops Controller with mock concern "It fell, broke a leg and got put down. Probably hamburger by now!". Fortunately he didn't pass it on.

Airmike767

17th Sep 2007, 03:01

In Vietnam, each pilot seemed to have the need to "Commo Check" on guard 243.0 . As in this thread the Guard Police were relentless in chiding the fellow .
Then one day the fellow was answered with.........."Say again on guard , you were cutout by a MAYDAY!" Silence prevailed! It's still great to know that so many are out there for us when the real deal occurs and we only have time for one call! Thanks for listening!

sunday driver

17th Sep 2007, 11:11

Have been GA for about 15 years (low time). I'm lucky cos I've never needed 121.5 for real.
Don't monitor 121.5 (not enough knobs on the box) - pretty sure I'm typical of 99% of weekend flyers.
Before this morning I had never even heard the terms 'guard' or 'on guard'.
If I was on 121.5 and up sh1t creek, shouts of 'you're on guard' would likely not improve my chances of a happy ending.
A very helpful discussion.
Ta.
sd

Caudillo

17th Sep 2007, 12:00

Yesterday was wonderful - over biscay I heard an American pilot make a short transmission to company, usual stuff, alas though on guard. I sat back and waited to see who would be the quickest on the gun. The police excelled themselves. I'd guess at least 3 went for it simulataneously and ended up blocking one another.. and the frequency. It makes me cringe.

cheesycol

20th Sep 2007, 08:51

Another cacophony of American Idiots on 121.5 last night jumping on anyone who made a mistaken broadcast. Seriously guys, do your wives keep you under the thumb and this is your only opportunity for flexing your big muscles???

Mick Stability

20th Sep 2007, 08:55

same the other day, interception going on in French Airspace. Those involved couldn't get a word in edgeways for all of the tossers reminding them what frequency they were on.

It's simple. It's for urgent messages, emergency, or if ATC need to call you. If that doesn't fit - don't transmit.

Whiskey Kilo Wanderer

20th Sep 2007, 15:07

I was expecting to be attacked by the “Guard Police” a couple of Sundays ago. Circling over a burning motor boat in the Solent. London Info / Solent Radar were having difficulty fixing my position from the transponder, so transferred me to London Centre on 121.5

I kept the transmissions short, down to “Doesn’t seem to be anyone on board” and “It’s sinking now…” Finally invited to continue en-route when the SAR helicopter had the wreck in sight. Didn’t hear an “On Guard” all the time. Perhaps it sounded real enough.

In hindsight should have read the Lat. / Long off the GPS, it would have saved everyone some time.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

Ops and Mops

21st Sep 2007, 23:08

Perhaps it is time for the SOP writers the world over to write a common procedure that actually works for everybody? It seems that many chief pilots are bereft of common sense and can only quote SOP's at everyone.

121.5 is hallowed ground and is listed by the International Telecommunications Union as an International Distress and Safety Frequency. The owners of the frequency are ICAO, but they delegate "ownership" of the freq to specific users such as London Centre, Scottish Centre etc. Its uses are clearly detailed and there can be no argument regarding who and what should be transmitted on 121.5

Most transport aircraft these days have 2, if not 3 VHF radios. Box 1 for ATC, Box 2 for Ops, ATIS, VOLMET or 121.5 and Box 3 for VHF ACARS. Is it not possible for a crew of 2 (or more) highly trained professional aircrew to manage the comms between them in such a way that 121.5 need not be monitored continuously unless out of VHF range of ground stations in oceanic areas?

It is now widely known that "sleeping" receivers are a problem, but they are easily dealt with. Surely when within VHF range of land stations, it is pure laziness to rely on someone calling you on guard to highlight a problem rather than remain vigilant?

Example:
A busy frequency suddenly goes quiet. Any reasonable crew should be able to do the following:

1. Check selected frequency, RT Station box settings and request a radio check with ATC
2. If no response, attempt contact on Box 2 or 3.
3. If no further contact, attempt to establish comms on previous freq if appropriate (which of course is noted on the PLOG by PNF, remembering that Jeppesen High and Low Charts have sector frequencies printed on them. :p)
4. If still no contact, attempt to raise an ATCC on 121.5 if within VHF range and request a relay to the last worked sector or transmit blind intentions having suspected rx failure.
5. In the event of no established comms, Squawk 7600, adopt National Radio Fail procedures and keep a sharp eye out for fighters joining your wing. At the same time, get the PNF to get a copy of the International Interception Procedures out onto his clipboard.
6. You could also try an ACARS message to alert ATC or even the newfangled Sat phones some of you have!

If at anytime a crew suspects radio or receiver failure, a quick radio check with ATC will ease the mind. In busy sectors the fact you don't want to bother a busy controller suggests that your rx is working fine!

Crew vigilance can cut this sort of issue out and avoid having to have 121.5 selected at all times. Should you NEED fighters, then using 121.5 for it's intended purpose along with 7500 will have them on your wing as quick as a flash.

The change will only come from those that write SOP's, but a bit of common sense in the cockpit will help highlight the solution to them.

At the end of the day, listen to the emergency/D&D controllers who monitor 121.5/243.0 for 24 hrs of each day and are specifically trained and authorised to manage the freq. They are telling us that CAT is causing the problem. Don't get at them, get at your Flt Ops dept and get them to update your SOP's to a reasonable procedure!

And for the "Guard Police", shut up! You may cost someone their life one day! :mad:

pilot999

23rd Sep 2007, 16:06

Afew months ago I heard a company aircraft on 121.5 having a quick chat. usually i hate this. but this time i could not help myself with a " ----- we have identified you on radar and arw now tracking you, can you restate the nature of the problem"

My god they soon shut up.:)

cheesycol

23rd Sep 2007, 23:34

:ugh::ugh::ugh: You cannot be serious?

ChristiaanJ

23rd Sep 2007, 23:49

pilot999, and Diddley Dee,
" ----- we have identified you on radar and are now tracking you, can you restate the nature of the problem"I LOVE this idea......
DD, anything you can do with that?
A few pro-active calls from D&D in that style might "clear the air"?

Check 6

24th Sep 2007, 00:00

OK, let me see if I understand this correctly.

It is not permissible to transmit "you're on guard" on 121.50, but it is permissible to transmit a false message stating that you are D&D.

Thank you for the clarification. :rolleyes:

ChristiaanJ

24th Sep 2007, 09:43

Check 6,
Sorry if I was misunderstood.
My suggestion was for D&D to do this.
The simple knowledge, that D&D in most cases has their identity the moment they open their big mouths, might shut up more than a few.

Check 6

24th Sep 2007, 14:49

CJ, sorry, my comments were intended for a poster above you. :ooh:

BTW, I forgot to mention. American bashers please take note:

"Guard" in the US (colonies for you bashers) is known as the "Speedbird chat line." Our ATC is forced (they can't turn it off obviously) to listen to BA crews chatting on 121.5 24/7 (7/24). := :hmm::confused::ouch::E

ChristiaanJ

24th Sep 2007, 17:23

Check 6,
I would suggest the same to the ATC in the colonies.
"Speedbird XXX transmitting on guard, please state your emergency." :ugh:

Caudillo

24th Sep 2007, 18:52

How about instead of that you don't say anything? In fact how about next time you see the guy next to you make a small mistake, instead of jumping on him, why not give him a few moments to see if he picks it up himself? How about it? An initial touch of leeway, as we would in normal life.

Diddley Dee

24th Sep 2007, 20:05

Christiaanj

Yes we can identify an ac by its transmission. We plot its DF trace onto our radar & read off the callsign. Takes all of about 10 seconds. We dont want to transmit on 121.5 ourselves unless we have to .... In extreme cases we will & do.

DD

Shiny side down

26th Sep 2007, 01:22

RTO.
Something vexes thee?

I wasn't aware that brits specifically clog 121.5. We monitor it generally all the time, in my outfit.
It is 'clogged' by-
1. Tits who insist on playing crazy frog, farts, trumpet sounds, music, etc. Mostly heard south of brest area.
2. People making mistakes. (agree to other poster who suggested a little latitude may be in order, rather than a barber shop chorus of 'you're on guard')
3. aforementioned chorus from the guard police.
4. Practice pan.
(by the way, one of those options is valid. Can you tell which one, based on your post?)

We don't have to monitor volmet constantly. We do exercise a reasonable amount of judgement in getting some weather updates occasionally. Surface actual is preferable to a TAF in my book. Exactly what are YOU doing as PNF that so occupies ALL of your cruise time that you have insufficient capacity to get a weather update? Or is it that your newspapers are more longwinded than ours?

I'm not sure why you can't be cleared for an ILS. When you find out, let me know. I've had little problem approaching from the ILS, and so I shall continue to do so.

As for praising the virtues of the US training system. Exactly why would you want to be taken anywhere blindfolded (except when engaging in valid adult entertainment), and then only have yourself to rely on, when normal practice is to make best use of all the available tools and facilities. Being able to triangulate your position is important, granted. But so is being able to communicate when in difficulty. I'm not convinced that being able to do one makes it impossible to accomplish the other. Please elaborate.

'all the reasons why I refuse to work for a UK carrier...'
Is that a promise?

flyingbug

27th Sep 2007, 09:47

RTO,

perhaps you should try the escape and evade training technique where the hood you are wearing is peed on too.
All good training..............

ATCO Fred

27th Sep 2007, 21:00

It is not permissible to transmit "you're on guard" on 121.50, but it is permissible to transmit a false message stating that you are D&D.

I think what we are saying is that "you are on guard" is often heard by the perpetrator as "go ahead".

Basically this is all down to poor RT discipline. My own pet hate is the AMOUNT of aircraft that start their call to me with " and Callsign....." which can sound like "PAN callsign"

I did start off by politely asking they don't - now I just acknowledge their PAN call and ask the nature of their emergency. Slowly the message is getting through!:E

Fred

BBK

5th Oct 2007, 06:54

Only last week I heard a LH calling a colleague of his on 121.5. It went something like this:
"LH123 this is LH456 on guard, do you read me". Immediately, came the reply: "you're on guard!". Now call me old fashined but I think that the clue that he MEANT to transmit on guard was there from what he said and not least that he did so in english whereas if he just wanted to chat he would probably do so in german.

despegue

5th Oct 2007, 09:15

RTO,

I totally agree with you!!

When I was flying for a UK carrier, I was constantly asked to monitor Volmets., even when the whole Europe was CAVOK:ugh:
Listening to volmet is only useful if you suspect bad weather at destination/enroute. Otherwise, it just keeps one crewmember out of the loop. Shame that some Brits rather follow "procedures" then GOP.

The yellow-jacket mania is another one by the way... my god, they would sleep in them if allowed by their wives...

Shiny side down

5th Oct 2007, 10:04

Despegue, and RTO if you like.

So flying for one UK carrier that does something dumb means they are all like that. Unlikely. More likely, you 2 characters were unable to be hired except by a company who had to open their arms to people willing to do anything!

Skyhooks, and spare bubbles for spirit levels comes to mind, almost.

Unless the 'constantly asked' indicates an inability to learn or comprehend what is being taught.

As for yellow jackets, they are an oddity. The manner of their draconian implementation in some locations is more to do with the odd behaviour and rationale of certain 'authorities' rather than an application of common sense.

Bealzebub

6th Oct 2007, 23:45

RTO wrote: Why do you have to monitor Volmet constantly? This is a practice that originated before TAF's where invented and that is ages ago. Stop it already.

despegue wrote :RTO,
I totally agree with you!!
When I was flying for a UK carrier, I was constantly asked to monitor Volmets., even when the whole Europe was CAVOK
Listening to volmet is only useful if you suspect bad weather at destination/enroute. Otherwise, it just keeps one crewmember out of the loop. Shame that some Brits rather follow "procedures" then GOP.

In the USA transisition altitude occurs at 18,000ft which is higher than most if not all of the terrain in that country. In Europe transistion altitudes very from region to region and most are typically between 3000ft and 6000ft. TAFs do not include altimeter settings and some might consider it reasonably important to have an idea what the altimeter setting is for a given area, particularly where high MSA's and the possibility of an emegency decent should be in the back of the mind.

In addition the possibility of an emegency diversion should tempt most pilots to have a good idea of the general weather situation at the airports within range that they might like to give consideration to. Obtaining such reports shouldn't really keep one pilot "out of the loop" for any significant period in the cruise and certainly no more than making other routine calls, P.A's, and similar such matters already do. Of course I might be completely wrong, but waiting for a crisis to develop before becoming aware of the options in your general situation might not be a good habit to get into ?

I think it is wholly appropriate that lost pilots should use 121.500 for establishing their position and seeking the necessary help. I do think that perhaps given the mandatory monitoring that is required these days it would be useful to have another frequency for the purpose of making training calls.