Lowest minimums ever for twin FO job?

[VH DSJ]

Just checked the AFAP website for jobs and came across this one;

FIRST OFFICERS - BEECH 1900
Minimum CPL(A)
Current Instrument Rating
Minimum 500 hrs total flight time
ATPL, ATPL subjects and night flying experience an advantage.

WTF?? No minimum twin time for an FO for this gig? Mate, are these the lowest minimums ever in Oz for twin RPT/CHTR operator? Every *man and his MECIR will be applying! :)

* for political correctness, please substitute 'woman' in place of 'man' when required

[craka]

Are you sure this isnt for Eagle NZ - its getting that way!!

[puff]

Check the afap website, it's Vincent

[high talker]

Gee dont worry about the F/O's, 1000 total and 100 multi for a command gig. I could have only dreamed of that in my time. Times are changing!!!

[Launchpad McQuack]

Those are the exact same minimums to fly Netjet's B1900s in Europe, no multi time except MECIR.

I believe Vincent have just recruited a few more drivers due to start in the next couple of weeks as well....

LP

[Flying Bear]

Times certainly are changing...

I remember having to have nearly 2000 hrs total before getting my first regular Baron ride!

I guess with an ad like that they possibly acknowledge that hunting for solid junior pilots with the right attitude is perhaps the way forward, rather than be simply concerned with a swag of hours in the logbook. Let's face it - many of the operators advertising on that same website are going to struggle to get people with the experience requirements they demand for some of the types they operate...

The challenge for Vincent will be to make sure that the training and development of the junior pilot in their multi-engine turboprop is thorough - but at least it is quite innovative and there is an opportunity for a possible development path for pilots...

It may lead to some consistency for them and probably beats the hell out of employing someone who has 2500 hrs total time with 500 hrs multi, then funding their turboprop endorsement only to see them sail out the door to a major airline six months later, which probably has been that company's commercial reality during the past couple of years.

[pointyendforward]

Vincents is a good gig. Sure, you will be bonded but in return you will get a very thorough training and good exposure to pleanty of good flying; even some international work now and then. Reasonably good gear, too. Pay is on par with other similar operators, ie not fantastic, but you can live on it. Vincent pilots seem to be held in high regard with other companies when it comes time to move on; recently they have lost quite a few pilots to the likes of Cathay, PB and several other jet operators.
If I was in the position where I had only the minimums that they stipulate in their ad then I would go for it. I'm not trying to sell the job; just my two cents worth.

[Cravenmorehead]

Not all that surpising really Europe is like that has been for years as is the States.
I was teaching people to fly with around 250 hours.:ok:

[Roger Copy Ta]

Am very interested in this job and applied yesterday. If anyone has any inside info or helpful advice please pm me.

Cheers :ok:

[kiwi chick]

Is this for real???

OMG even I might be able to scrape in!!! :ok:

[kiwi chick]

Can someone please give me the website link?

I tried www.afap.co.nz... to no avail, and I'm afraid I have no idea... LOL!

KC

[komac2]

www.afap.org.au (http://www.afap.org.au) or aussie federation of pilots go to what's new section -afap latest job ads in australia and around the pacific located on the right hand side of the webpage - cheers.

[training wheels]

It's the one located on the west island ;)
http://www.afap.org.au/html/s02_article/article_view.asp?id=98&nav_cat_id=127&nav_top_id=73&dsb=641

... and this is their homepage (http://www.vincentaviation.com.au/).

[excellr8]

Try this they have had 8 guys go to Cathay in the past 24 months, thats 8 Captains....pretty big turn over considering it's 1 capt per 3 months when they don't have that many to start with!!!!

[mustafagander]

I hear that there is an extremely low time pilot currently doing F/O endorsement training on SF340. I mean lower than low!! :eek:

Anybody know for sure?

[geeup]

Does anyone know what the pay and conditions are like at Vincents? For the Captain slots.

[SB4200]

Those who want an Aussie B1900 FO job and have minimal hours have a chat to Airlink in Dubbo before they start parking planes due to lack of crew.

Don't necessarily believe what the minimums say.

[dreamjob]

Is it worth joining a company like this as a low hour pilot? How long would you be an FO for?

I'm thinking it would be better to go up north and get some command..? :confused:

[Towering Q]

Pretty damn good I would expect. Twin operators no longer have the luxury of hiring new starts with buckets of multi engine time, because most have moved on.

[ShockWave]

Dream job.

Command time is all well and good, but if you want to end up in a multi-crew airline job, then that is where you should jump. Go for the F/O job and get some experience in that position, proper multi-crew training etc. Stay there, then when you know what the hell is going on around you, get a command, then an airline job.

[dreamjob]

ShockWave, thanks for your reply.

My dream job (:}) would be to fly for Qantas my entire career, and realistically, I'd like to apply as soon as possible. I've looked at their website and just looking at the requirements for DESO, wouldn't 500 hours command time take less time (albeit on a single), than the 1000 odd hours RPT turbine time? Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to my time in GA to get invaluable life experience, but I rather not spend an eternity there when there's a chance I could be sitting in a shiny jet! :ok:

I know Qantas hardly ever recruit pilots with only 500 hours command (on a single), but how long would 1000hours on turbines take? I was thinking a few years at least? :confused:

Some may call me young and naive, but I know what my ultimate goal is (have known for a very long time), and I don't want to be too old before I can apply!

Any of you older more experienced drivers out there, feel free to send me a nasty PM telling me to get my head screwed on straight, I'm all for learning and getting advice. :ok:

Regards.

[ShockWave]

DJ.
My advice for what it may be worth. Do not limit your options or goals in life or work. Just like flying.... always have at least 2 more options you are happy with, never ever put yourself or your aircraft into a position of only having one option if you can help it.

I am not familiar with QF requirements on hours or their web site so can only speculate what they are looking for. Web sites had not been invented when I was at your stage!

I did six years flogging around GA getting command hours before getting into an airline, which was all great experience but not as relevant to airline operations as being an F/O in a regional airline for a year or so.

GA as a career is a tough life and not rewarding financially. What if you don't get an airline job? Will GA be enough for you?

If you get a job with a regional airline as an F/O, you may get into an airline job after a year or so or you will get a command on a nice turbo-prop. That will then enable you to gain more experience on bigger aircraft until your company gets jets or you move on to bigger things. If you get sick of the turbo props in oz you will be able to work for other airlines over seas and perhaps get to the bigger jets that way.

What if you get the qantas job but decide you don't like it? or they decide they don't like you? What other options will you be left with? 500 GA hours is not much of a fallback, nor is S/O time.

Very few jobs now days are jobs for life. Keep your options and expectations open.

[dreamjob]

Thanks for your wise words, ShockWave.

I understand what you're saying and I will definitely keep that in mind. :ok:

Regards.

[rammel]

Here's my take on working for QF. I'm not a pilot, but I do work for them.

It seems to me that a QF pilot is about the best paid flying job in Aust, but it is now not the best place to work.

I personally know of people who haven't even applied for QF and now have a shiny jet job. All these people had more than the minimums required for QF. While at this point in time their pay may not be the same as QF they should have a command quicker than anyone as a SO in QF. These people like to fly (isn't that what the job is about) and couldn't see themselves as a SO.

The jobs may not be in Australia, but with paying hardly any tax and an accomodation allowance, I think they will be in front money and experience wise of anyone who joins now as a SO.

While these jobs may not be in Australia, they are not far away.

Good luck with getting into QF if that is your dream, but I would keep my eyes and ears open as to what else is out there. I liked the look of Kingfisher in India, especially for the calander:).

[ScottyDoo]

It seems to me that a QF pilot is about the best paid flying job in Aust, but it is now not the best place to work.


Well-said.

DJ, get your 1000-1500 hrs, minimum, in GA because if you go for a QF gig it will be the last time you fly anything, especially in command, for a long, long time. Although QF is your dream job now, you will grow out of the honeymoon phase eventually.

Unless you truly do not care, being the only guy in the cockpit (and the bar :p) who hasn't really flown anything will eventually come back to haunt you.

[dreamjob]

Hi ScottyDoo, that's a fair point you raise there. Would you consider being an F/O on a Turboprop as flying? I suppose it is, seeing that you take-off and land etc. :ok:

Regards.

[Transition Layer]

Unless you truly do not care, being the only guy in the cockpit (and the bar ) who hasn't really flown anything will eventually come back to haunt you

I don't know about you, but I don't have such a small penis that I have to stand around in the bar and tell flying stories, and nor do I feel ashamed to be an S/O simply because I don't "fly" an aircraft.

I am happy in the knowledge that after roughly 5 years as an S/O, I'll be an F/O "flying" for Mainline, on better terms and conditions than JQ and DJ pilots on similar aircraft.

And in the meantime, I've earnt a ****load of coin as an S/O, travelled to places I never imagined and had a great lifestyle at home because I get loads of time off.

Yeah QF really sux. :rolleyes:

TL

[ScottyDoo]

Calm down TL. Don't be so sensitive about it! Who said anyone needs to feel ashamed???

DJ has a long career ahead of him and if he loves flying, doing his GA time is something he should consider because the fact is, as an SO, you don't really fly the aircraft except in the sim. Some SOs I know find this demoralising.

It's a bit late for DJ to discover this when he's in the job! Maybe there's more in it for him than just the coin?

Sorry if I worded it badly; I didn't mean to belittle you or anyone else.

Standing around the bar getting pissed and telling flying stories is obviously not the focus of aviation but it is a part of the lifestyle. Obviously its importance varies from one pilot to the next and you consider it low on your priorities but in my case, I'm glad I did my GA time. And I got to where you are, too, so I'm happy.

Just pointing out the possibilities to Mr. DreamJob, that's all, no need to get all riled...!!! ;)

[Transition Layer]

No worries Scotty, I didn't really mean to come across that way, assume you're with QF in which case we will have to share a few "flying" stories over a beer somewhere. The GA stories that we all tell are still the better ones anyway! (Cept for maybe the "who shagged who" stories in QF that circulate around the place ;) )

And dreamjob, F/O time on a 1900 is great, Command time on a 210/PA31 etc is great too, there really is no right or wrong answer, and either way you'll still be able to apply to QF within a couple of years. Good luck with it all!

Cheers,
TL

[ScottyDoo]

either way you'll still be able to apply to QF within a couple of years

Exactly. Seems like things are on the improve in the industry.

[Ski Guru]

I knew TL would turn up in this thread.

I hear that even you might be able to walk into a turbo prop job at the mo. just don't slouch

with all that coin its time you bought me a beer

Powder to the People

[Ralph the Bong]

"Those who want an Aussie B1900 FO job and have minimal hours have a chat to Airlink in Dubbo before they start parking planes due to lack of crew."

Yep, just ask 'Smilin' Dave' for a job.:yuk:

Ask around before you sign on the dotted line....:eek:

[Towering Q]

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to my time in GA to get invaluable life experience, but I rather not spend an eternity there when there's a chance I could be sitting in a shiny jet!

Don't let Bushy hear you say that.:eek:

BTW, does the jet have to be shiny, would you accept a job in a dull faded one?

[john_tullamarine]

As folks are finding out now .. it all depends on supply and demand.

For instance, I was lucky enough to pick up an entry FO slot in the 70s with next to no experience (around 500-600 hours total, no I/F to speak of, and a brand new endorsement on an Apache ... I can still remember Hugh busily operating the "failed" engine to keep us from falling out of the sky during asy circuit work ..). As I was rapidly getting past the then age limit, I guess I was lucky that Henry took pity on me when cleaning out the bottom of the applications drawer ...

Those fellows who were running through their initial commands at the time generally had secured jobs 10-12 years earlier with around 200 hours and no twin exposure at all ...

Now, if I were ten years younger ...

[thinking pilot]

Which apache would that be. ECY by any chance.:rolleyes:

[training wheels]

Those fellows who were running through their initial commands at the time generally had secured jobs 10-12 years earlier with around 200 hours and no twin exposure at all ...

Well, they say a twin is only a twin when it's flying asymmetrically :} So, I often wonder why all the fuss with 500 multi-engine minimums when the majority of the time, those 500 twin hours are flown symmetrically!

So hats off to Vincent Aviation for lowering the twin minimum requirements .. at last there's an operator in Oz that uses common sense in this regard. (Oh, and Qantas as well, since no multi engine time is required there as well to apply).

[VH-VIN]

Common sense in Austrailan Aviation?, please let me know where it is as I would love to find some!!
Thats not fair there are some good operaters and pilots out there but some of the stuff taught in GA needs a bit of a sort out.
I find the lower time the pilot the better they are!! Dont have to spend all the time untraining them!!

[Cap'n Arrr]

Arr, if they be showing common sense it be time to report them to CASA and have their AOC revoked.:}

Arr!

[nick murry]

G'day Oombi pusswah!

[TinDriver]

Hey Nick you GC,

Gotta catch up sometime soon....Ohh and have fun this week...:ok:

TD.

[Capt Wally]

..............us "aluminum drivers" are on the wrong end of the 'big stick' here..............we ought to be CASA FOI's (Flying Operations Inspectros), in this instance a team leader..............currently being offered in ML is such a job paying lose to $150K PA !!!........................at least these days the shoe is on the other foot with pilots being a commodity rather than a cheap throw away tool !!

capt wally :-)

[Dark Knight]

275 hours total

No twin time

No Instrument Rating

First job - F-27 F/O

Then through several types to Boeing 747-400 Command Cat IIIb qualified

What is the big deal?

Nothing dedication, application and sound training cannot provide.

DK

ps>>(degree in whinging is not a requirement!)

[training wheels]

275 hours total

No twin time

No Instrument Rating

First job - F-27 F/O

Then through several types to Boeing 747-400 Command Cat IIIb qualified

What is the big deal?

Nothing dedication, application and sound training cannot provide.

DK

ps>>(degree in whinging is not a requirement!)

In which epoch did you achieve all that? And in which country? Like this kind of thing happens everywhere in Oz in this day and age .. yeah right .. :rolleyes:

[Roost]

I know up until recently one of the directors of vincent also was a QF sim instructor and actually was doing 767 sim checks for recruiting.

A person like this can put your aplication on the right desk, and has invaluable insight into directing a career if you want you dream job.

There is always a little room for who you know in this job.

By the way, he is a professional and I'm not suggesting he would do anything underhanded, but has pointed many young pilots in the right direction.

[Dark Knight]

TW

Right here downunder when they were needing them & not just feeding them.

Admittedly, a few years ago and there were a significant number of others who did the same most of whom are now retiring which will make room for youngsters of today. There are some around today with the intestinal fortitude to make the grade I trust?

Called supply & demand.

Though reading these pages it would appear there is going to be a very severe shortage of drivers particularly when pilots allow the operators to pay them `drivers' `wages'!

Here in Aus we have crossed the threshhold of perhaps the greatest boom & expansion seen in this country which is likely to continue for perhaps the next 20 to 30 years and the best any can do in these pages is whinge & spread negative, spurious propaganda considering handing management of this boom to a bunch comprised mostly of old ex-union hacks who, when you check the record, well & truly shafted those in the aviation industry in the past.

One of the major reasons for being paid `Drivers' `wages' today!

The expansion overseas will be even greater, read todays reports about Emirates further fleet increases; check the advts for the new Indian operator; and wait for it; India has not really started to get its act together yet and when it does it will be bigger, better & longer sustained than China.

As for happening in Australia today; are the pilots trained in the flying schools here for China, Singapore, etc, graduating with around 250 hours, albeit probaly with a twin endorsement returning to their home country and hopping into the right hand seat of a A300/320/330/340, B737/757/767/747/777 able to cut the mustard?

Well yes! And flew with a number of them right out of flying school in the US or their home country with that minimum time and today some of them are now Captains on the above types. (real scary at times it was from time to time)

I repeat; Nothing dedication, application, common sense and sound training cannot provide!


DK

ps>> re the flying bit; It is called the house theory!

[ShockWave]

DK quote: As for happening in Australia today; are the pilots trained in the flying schools here for China, Singapore, etc, graduating with around 250 hours, albeit probaly with a twin endorsement returning to their home country and hopping into the right hand seat of a A300/320/330/340, B737/757/767/747/777 able to cut the mustard?

Answer: YES and NO. Only the very best make it through, there is an extremely high failure rate and none of them return home and jump in the right seat of anything! Most will go on to do many months more training in light jets or do several Jet training simulator transition bridging courses before being placed on an aircraft type transition course which has been designed for cadets and is therefore longer and more intensive. Their line training will last for a very long time and they will fly with an instructor and support pilot for many months. Add in a few english language courses and you are looking at around three and a half to four years of solid training before they are released as line F/Os.

[VH DSJ]

Well, another operator has advertised on the AFAP website for an F/O position with no multi-time required. And looks like you don't even need ATPL subjects for the Dash 8 F/O gig as well! Is this a new trend we're seeing?

Requirements for Dash 8 F/O:
· total time: 1,500hr
· command: 500hr
· CPL preferably with ATPL subjects

[STLTH]

I would'nt be believing in what everyone advertises because apparently Vincent did a type o on their one. I was told it should of said 2000 TT and 1000 multi for command on the 1900, but obviously they would accept just a bare minimum ATPL holder. So make sure you call the companies up and confirm, and you don't want to be a career F.O unless thats your thing.

[cjam]

If you have around those minimums and looking for work it would be an excellent opportunity to improve yourself as a pilot. If you haven't done any f/o time just look at it as an opportunity to learn off people with more experience than yourself. A year in the right seat two or three years into your career will do you a lot more good than harm....ya can't buy that sort of experience......actually, in Aus you prob can.