Pilot Severely Sanctioned For Speaking In Support Of Attacks On US.

[Kalulu]

Link (http://www.myjoyonline.com/article.asp?p=3&a=380)

The Ghana Civil Aviation Authority has barred a Ghana Airways pilot from entering restricted areas of the Kotoka International Airport following statements he allegedly made in support of Osama Bin Laden’s September 11 attacks on the United States.

Photographs of the pilot, Talal Kahldi have been posted at the arrival hall of the Airport with notices to that effect. JOY FM enquiries revealed that Talal Kahldi admitted making the statements in support of the attack after one pilot, Mills Lamptey reported him to the authorities of the airline. The American Consulate in Ghana has withdrawn the pilot’s visa due to concerns over security.

Mr. Khaldi told JOYFM that he was dressed in a smock and walking down the arrival hall of the KIA when some officials of the Customs Excise and Preventive Service (CEPS) started hailing him as “Osama bin Laden”. A woman by name Veronica Lamptey who is the wife of one of one of the senior pilots of Ghana Airways asked him why he was being called “Osama”, to which he explained that it was probably because of the smock.

Mrs Lamptey then retorted “Osama will be arrested by all means.” In reply, Mr Kahldi said that “as most critics of the US say, even if Osama is killed today, 60,000 more Osamas will emerge.” Information available to JOYFM indicates that security personnel at the arrival hall of the Kotoka International Airport might have heard the conversation and reported it to the authorities.

The Head of Flight Operations at Ghana Airways, Captain Kofi Kwakwah confirmed the restrictive measures taken against Kahldi to JOYFM. According to him, Kahldi confirmed that he made those statements when he appeared before the management of the airline.

The airline had no alternative than to suspend him because following the September 11 attacks, the American Embassy in Ghana had issued directives demanding a thorough check up on people who board the airlines including flight crew. Captain Kwakwa further noted that the American Embassy invited Kahldi for a discussion after which they withdrew his visa.

Mr Kahldi is however contending the disciplinary action taken against him by the management of GCAA and Ghana Airways. According to him, the authorities are not being fair to him, especially when investigations into the matter have not yet been concluded. Kahldi noted that the posting of his pictures at the Airport seeks to criminalize him although he has not proven guilty.

Mr Kahldi told JOYFM that he received a letter from Ghana Airways on the 13th of this month informing him that an committee of enquiry has been set up to investigate the statements he made. However, nothing was heard from them till Wednesday when he was informed that his pictures had been posted at various places of the Airports announcing that he had been barred from entering any part of the Airport.

It amazes me how any professional pilot, wherever he/she is from and whatever his/her beliefs are can support the Sep 11th attacks.

[PaperTiger]

Is that all he said ?
Criticism of the US or repeating a widely-held view that removing OBL will not solve the issue does not constitute 'support of the WTC attack' in my book. Specially if as reported he had been goaded by being called names due to his appearance.
Calmer heads required I think.

[Hold at Saffa]

I agree, PT.
Time, I think, to stop gawping in shock and start asking why!

[New York Pilot]

Given the current climate and what we are all going through, I do believe calm thinking did prevail and all actions taken against him rightly justified.

Provided he had made it to here in New York on his airline he would have been imprisoned under the terrorist prevention act. I say he got off way too easy, how can he discrace the Pilot profession with his most unprofessional and in-humane way of thinking. I am glad to see things are prevailing as such. Thank you.

[Epsom Hold 2]

How ridiculous. Making Bin Laden a martyr WILL create many more like him, it is a widely-expressed view and one I happen to believe true (although he should be found and held accountable). Doesn't mean I think flying planes into buildings is a good idea, doesn't mean this Ghana Airlines pilot thinks so either. If expressing such a view in the US really makes a person liable to arrest under anti-terrorism law (is this the infamous "Patriots Bill"?) then I'm glad I'm not going there any time soon.

[WhatsaLizad?]

This is what may be the case, (provided they fly to New York):

(The Ghana pilot makes the statement,

The U.S. gets wind of it,

U.S. tells Ghana Airways, 'if that guy is flying past 60W and your plane is 1 mile off course, it will be shot down'

Ghana tells pilot to stay home.)

Thats my simple theory.


Personally I can trust many countries, mostly European.(better than most US ones :) ) I do feel uneasy about others from places where there may be a lack of resources to prevent another action. Small freighter types fit in this category.

[BOEINGBOY1]

the beauty of living in "a free world" is that everybody is entittled to an opinion and to the power of free speech. whilst iin no way what so ever share the same beleifs as those that hate america - they are still entittled to an opinion, no matter how much oposition to their beleifs.

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: BOEINGBOY1 ]

[virgin]

Depends how he said it.
If he expressed the view that the US/allies action might be counterproductive, then fair enough. If that's all he was doing, seems unlikely this action would have been taken.

On the other hand, if he was being sympathetic to Bin Laden, he deserves what he got and what he gets.
I for one wouldn't want to share a flight deck with him. The risks are too great at the moment to take chances.

[Prof2MDA]

He has a right to his opinion, but the company has the right to take action based on those opinions. Free speech only applies to whether the government censors you, not what private entities do. Nobody has prevented him from saying what he wants, but he has to put his money where his mouth is and face the consequences of his speech, which can include being considered a security risk, having the company fire him for not wanting to appear that he represents their opinion, etc.

[Devils Advocate]

I hate to say it but what the bloke apparently said seems only too true, i.e. killing OBL will simply martyr him in the eyes of many an extremist-in-the-waiting; and which surely, if taken to its logical conclusion, means we'd also better kill every one of his ten's of thousands of current followers too - uhm, and then we'd better kill all their brothers & cousins, lest they too coming looking for revenge..... so where / when do you stop, would you also kill this bloke, just in case ?!

In any event, based on what he said ( if that indeed was all he said ) , one might say that his punishment doesn't fit his crime.

[sirwa69]

If you read the article closely you will find the following:
Captain Kwakwa further noted that the American Embassy invited Kahldi for a discussion after which they withdrew his visa.


I would expect that the US embassy questioned him about his views and made their descision based on that rather than the fairly obvious observation he made about OBL being martyred.

[Mentaleena]

If there is ANY doubt about his credibility, he must be stopped, removed and watched!!!
Aviation comes first, then the person.

[RVR800]

>“as most critics of the US say, even if >Osama is killed today, 60,000 more Osamas >will emerge.”

This is cr@p and he shouldnt have said
it. Period.

You could have said this about Hitler

Most moslems think the guy is as a
terrorist especially in
Afghanistan.-where he is losing againt the moslem Northern Alliance

[X-QUORK]

Yes, OBL will become a martyr in the eyes of his followers. He won't be taken alive, so the chances of apprehending him to face trial in a court are almost zero.

If his death creates another 100 zealots, so be it. I find it amazing that there are those that still think appeasement is the best way to end world terrorism. If these people are determined to fight western democracies the only option for those countries is defence. Neutralize the enemy.

Edited to remove a comment about Hitler, it seems RVR 800 above beat me to it.

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: X-QUORK ]

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Tyranny can only thrive if the oppressed submit.

We have for to long allowed the liberal mindset, social engineers to erode our self worth to this point, where we see such drivel as lets find a peaceful resolution to tyranny.

Kill them.( The terrorists such as OBL )

.............................................

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[Roc]

RVR 800,


I agree! Alot of people out there believe that we (USA) should refrain from this war on terrorism because it will only spawn more future OBL's. However, these are the same bunch who said the Iraqi Republican guards would make "mincemeat" of the US Marine's, they also were on this very web-site 4 weeks ago telling us how the Taliban would decimate the Allied forces as they did the Russians and English a couple hundred years ago, their Grandfathers were most definately the same people who pleaded with Chamberlain to pacify Hitler. Well we did a "number" on Adolph and Tojo and I have'nt seen thousands of Junior Adolph's terrorizing the world since 1945. In a word, many of these "experts" are really scared and afraid, and to them it sounds intellectually superior to preach against war, but others of us who actually will have to fight know better.
Back to the original thread....I would assume that this pilot said alot of wrong things at his interview at the US Embassey, and that is what lead to his current situation. By the way, as an American I could give 2 **** @ what alot of these third world cra&holes have to say about why these terror attcks occured. The US didn't divide Palestine, or set up colonies in Africa and the middle East, but were often blamed for it. Take care of the situation yourselves, lets see what enlightened solutions for solving the middle-east problems spawn forth from Ghana, Syria, Libya, etc......If it were up to me I'd like to see the rest of the world take care of its own business and stop whinning when the US doesn't give you a big enough hand-out!!!!! I feel much better now! Thank You

[5by5]

Cat Driver when you wrote, "Tyranny can only thrive if the oppressed submit"

Speaking as a Palestinian, I whole heartedly agree, and one can but hope that America, and its lack of CI Agency, will see the light and stop meddling in Middle Eastern affairs which don't concern them.

Much of what the West does in this respect is outwardly done in the name of 'freedom' - when it really should read, OIL - and as a process of which it props-up despotic states like Saudi Arabia, etc, e.g. does anybody else remember the amount of aid that the West used to chuck at Iraq during the Iran / Iraq wars ? Oh how the times have changed !

So let's do stop fooling ourselves about why the West is so desperate to be involved in the Middle East, because you can be sure that if it had no OIL, then the West wouldn't give a sh!t about what goes on there, just like much of Africa.

Also, it's been said before in these forums, but if the West instead of supplying arms to various Middle East nations spent just one tenth of what those munitions cost in supplying properly delivered aid then a lot of what we're seeing now would not be happening.

Perhaps it's a case that ultimately, and as per the proverb, as yea sow, so shall yea reap !

Ps. Roc, it's just a shame you got your big horses arse kicked in Vietnam, in what would otherwise have been yet another classic example of American foreign policy ! ;)

[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: 5by5 ]

[ONTPax]

5by5 wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ps. Roc, it's just a shame you got your big horses arse kicked in Vietnam, in what would otherwise have been yet another classic example of American foreign policy !

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SPARE ME! Had it been a properly managed war, we probably could've kicked butt in Vietnam to the same degree it's happening in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, political correctness was already rearing it's ugly head way back then. We were too concerned about the sensitivities of other countries worldwide who were "worried" when our B-52s were rearranging Hanoi. A civil war where the "north" was trying to take over the "south" just didn't get everyone worldwide as roweled up as planes being flown into skyscrapers.

That's because the scenario at the WTC could very easily happen in YOUR country, too. A cause for concern? You bet. You'd better quite supporting Israel and put down that issue of PLAYBOY or else the same thing could very possibly happen to you. The Islamic Fundamentalists aren't going to be satisfied until we're all walking, talking, thinking, eating and sleeping just like they do.

No one can win a war with one hand tied behind their back. Vietnam was a mismanaged war, without a plain and simple focus --- victory. We were too busy trying to appease the "nervous Nellies" who feared a larger conflict. :rolleyes:

[Roc]

5by5

Your answer, witty as you may think is precisley the problem as I see it. First, why should one penny of our money be given to you as Aid...What have you done to warrent such aid? and why do you feel we should give you anything!!! Take care of your own problems!!! If you have a beef with Israel, negociate, stop the fighting, sit down and try to work things out, if that doesn't work, go to war!! I don't profess to have any answers to your political problems, but it seems neither do you!! But as usual, because you can't figure it out, you expect the US to do it for you or at the very least give you Aid...grow up, Americans don't pay their hard earned taxes so you can get a hand-out, we owe you nothing!! Like I said before, we didn't divide Palestine, din't colonize the world, didn't start World Wars, but were expected to pay for all this!! As for the oil, your 100% correct...the whole world wouldn't give a cr*p about the middle east if it weren't for your oil resources, so whats your point? There are alot of Arab countries, and all would like to see some end to all this violence and strife in the Midle East, sit down with Israel and try to work it out, If you can't then you will have to live with the problems. Back when Israel was founded, wasn't it the British and French that supplied Israel with arms? In 1967 wasn't the entire IAF flying French jets? the US hasn't always been the main supplier of arms. Hasn't every US president since Nixon tried to bring peace to your region? So stop acting like a child, expecting a hand-out from Daddy to save you! Who gave the US a hand-out? and by the way, your threats and predictions don't scare anyone....Good luck,

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Further to my comment on tyranny:

I am proud to say I am American in my sympathies and loyalties, even though I am a Canadian.

I will be far more comfortable now knowing that America is getting back on the correct road to rebuilding their military after the years of the goofy liberal social engeerning that we have witnessed.

I defy anyone to show me another country that has given so much to the world as the U.S.A.

There that should pretty well cover how I feel.

............................................

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[MissChief]

5by5, Why have your fellow Arab people not donated a small percentage of their OIL WEALTH to support their brothers with aid? The poverty problems in Gaza can be eliminated in a week, but nothing like this has been done in over 50 years.

And why no OIL AID to Afghanistan, Sudan, Chad or other impoverished brother nations?
My guess is that you all are addicted to causing trouble (Jihad, revolution, call it what you will) rather than preventing it.

[Mentaleena]

Just one more question to our Arab/Palestinian brothers.

What make of cars do you drive, what make of computers do you use, what make of mobile phones do you have,what make of television/hi-fi (if allowed) do you have, what make of airplanes does your airline use, what.........???

[Techman]

I was wondering when this would turn into a "**** off, we are morally, intellectually and otherwise superior than you" thread.

[5by5]

ONTpax - If, as you write, "kicking butt" and "B-52s were rearranging Hanoi", means bombing, burning, and terrorising little girls - just what kind of moral stance is that then ? and all this from the land of the brave and home of the free ? Don’t make me laugh mate !

And whilst we're at it, lets have a little reminder of American foreign policy shall we :

http://www.humanistart.com/images/nick_ut.jpg

Roc - Nobody expect the USA or the West to do anything, it's they who want to stick their noses into business which is really not theirs for no other reason than because they wish to defend their way of life, courtesy of a cheap and regular supply of oil. Along the way they'll prop-up no end of tyrants, in order to ensure that the price of a gallon if gas stays pretty much as it is.

In the round, it would seem a case that many just don't understand cause and effect, in that nobody expects free hand-outs - indeed is there such a thing ? - because they nearly always come with strings attached, and particularly so when given from the Western governments of USA/GB/France.

Cat Driver - If by a "show me another country that has given so much to the world as the U.S.A" you mean, their crap / non-existent culture, their crap ideals (see above), and being the most polluting country on the face of this Earth, then I'd have to agree with you !

Mischief - see above, about despots.

Mentaleena - If your measure of culture is entirely dependant upon which car, computer, mobile phone, television, hi-fi, or aircraft one uses, then I'm afraid to say that you really should take stock of your overly materialistic values, and the phrase 'morally bankrupt' comes immediately to mind.

Techman - You took the words out of my mouth.

[Roc]

5by5,

Its called War, its ugly and brutal...By the way, the young girl in that picture is now an AMERICAN citizen, who loves this country and is raising a family here! I have no personal anomosity towards you or Palestinians, I take no sides in your conflict with Israel. It just frustrates me that you'd all would rather live in fear, than settle your differences. I just can't stomach people who expect a hand-out. In a recent interview with the Northern Alliance leader who was killed on 9 Sept, he was complaining how after the Russians left Afghanistan, the US didn't do anything to supply aid to help rebuild afghanistan, hence we have the situation we have today. We supplied them with arms and training to aid their efforts, and now we have to rebuild their country!!!!!where is it written that the US has to do this? Whats the matter? can't figure it out yourself? give me a break, you all talk like tough guys, yet you act like little schoolgirls. The point about using Arab-oil monies is valid, what about OBL and his millions, what has he done to foster peace in the Middle East? Hell, the Kuwaiti's have alot more money than the average American, go ask them for aid. Good Luck, I mean that, keep on hating America, I'll be surfing at the beach, eating a burger, and listening to some good ole Rock and Roll.

[5by5]

So if 'Its called War, its ugly and brutal' that must mean then that it's ok to fly a crowded airliner in to a crowded skyscraper - coz you can't have it both ways, can you ?! After all, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[virgin]

"So if 'Its called War, its ugly and brutal' that must mean then that it's ok to fly a crowded airliner in to a crowded skyscraper ....."

Is that what you really believe 5by5?
If so, you disgust me.
What I find extremely worrying is that someone with your views is (apparently) a pilot with a British carrier - recalling your detailed posts on the recent discussion: BA sells Go for £100m (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=014313)

I note you said in June you were leaving Go. Hope to God you haven't joined us.
Flying across the pond with someone with such an extreme and obsessive hatred of America and all it stands for is something I can do without. :eek:

[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: virgin ]

[Rollingthunder]

Member number 31, posts 27.
Close to the bone topic...could be interesting.

Edited for .

[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: Rollingthunder ]

[Wino]

We have spent the better part of the last 20 years protecting the Arab/muzlims from the rest of the world.

They must be the worst soldiers on earth, they start a war and promptly lose it and we are called into protect them. We just spent over 50 billion dollars in boznia to keep one million muzlims from being slaughtered by milosovitch, they REPEATEDLY start wars with Israel and lose those wars, we hardly supported israel at all till the 73 war, and even then it was in return for them not taking Cairo, all of Jordan, etc...

We forced them to give back the Sinai, lebanon etc. I thought those were good ideas at the time, now I think not.

There already is a Palestinian state. Its called JORDAN. Isreal now has a peace treaty with them, but that country's first act was to declare war on Isreal. They did it again and again. The west bank was part of Jordan originally. Well, Jordan lost it in its repeated stupid wars with Israel and then signed it away at the negotiating table. The Palestinians should be repatriated to Jordan where they belong, but of course the Jordanians don't want em either. Why should it be Isreal's problem?

It is time to let the Muslim extremist actually lose a few wars rather than intervening before the logical conclusion of war (Remeber what the USSR did in Germany at the end of the war? What North Vietnam did to South Vietnam etc? What the Muslims would do to us if they had the chance? What the Taliban did to Afganistan) They have been playing their stupid games for years without consequences. Take the gloves off of Isreal.

As to oil, maybe we can get enough from Russia if we help them exploit it. I would happily pay 25 dollars a barrel for Oil to Russia rather than 15 to any ******* land where the keep promising Jihad.

Cheers
Wino

[Prof2MDA]

To those that think that the U.S. should pull out of the affairs between Isreal and the Palestinians, I would ask you this: Just how long do you think that the Palestinians would last if Isreal wasn't worried about upsetting the U.S. with their actions? Does anyone really think that Isreal wouldn't wipe them all out in a week? The Palestinians owe more to the U.S. than they think!

As to political correct speech, I invite you all to pick up a copy of "The New Thought Police" by Tammy Bruce, who herself is politically left, but she recognizes the dangers of P.C.ism. Interesting book!

[TowerDog]

Well said Wino.

Cheap oil ain't worth the price we are paying.
Let Saddam have Kuwait and Saudi next time.

Let them Arabs fight and back-stab each other, they only seem to be happy when they can kill and blow up people in the name of some fantasy figure named Allah.

Put a big fence around the whole region and make sure none of the terrorist rag-heads escape. We sure have no use for them in the Western world. Screw 'em and their oil.

[virgin]

One as bad as the other in my view.
The biggest difference is the Israelis are far better at PR and, almost 60 years later, still use the holocaust as a trump card to justify their acts of terrorism against Palestinians in the occupied territories. The old line of "We're only defending ourselves" has worn so thin it's transparent to most thinking people.
I have the utmost admiration for the US and all it stands for. Great shame its foreign policy in the Middle East is so pro-Israeli because of the enormous Zionist lobby which prevents rational thinking.

[Mentaleena]

5by5

Just a small point, where on earth did you get so brilliant at analysing people?

I said to you:

"What make of cars do you drive, what make of computers do you use, what make of mobile phones do you have,what make of television/hi-fi (if allowed) do you have, what make of airplanes does your airline use?"

You said to me:

"If your measure of culture is entirely dependant upon which car, computer, mobile phone, television, hi-fi, or aircraft one uses, then I'm afraid to say that you really should take stock of your overly materialistic values, and the phrase 'morally bankrupt' comes immediately to mind."

I say to you - JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Don't try and be too clever mate. You know jack sh*t about me, let alone TELLING me I am materialistic.

So how do you drive to work then on a fuc*in camel?

[5by5]

Well for starters some of you might like to go and (re)read the big red print at the bottom of each page.

As in, I am not actually a Palestinian and thus far what I've written was designed to weedle out a response from those amongst us who exhibit what might be described as somewhat bigoted and xenophobic veiws, e.g. (and to answer a question) No, Mentaleena, I don't actually 'drive to work on a fuc*in camel' (sic), I actually use a very nice british built LandRover - but I'm sure you (now) see my point.

That said, and judging from some of the replies, and speed with which some leap to judgements, is it any wonder that the world's in the state that it is ?!

Ho hum.... can I have my hook back now mister ?

[Mentaleena]

5by5

As predicted, you are MENTAL mate.
You can't give one proper answer and you seem quite "unstable" to me. A long lie down and some months off flying perhaps????

[5by5]

Tsh, there you go again with that nasty name calling - don't you know, that's how wars start ! :rolleyes:

[Roc]

5by5,

You really lost any support you had on this issue with your statement about flying a jetliner into the World Trade Center is somehow analogous to the picture of the young girl running from a B-52 strike.

As a military pilot, let me enlighten you! first whatever the mission was of that B-52 it was undoubtably a military target. Said target was ringed with AAA weoponry, SAM sites, and other military defences. The B-52 pilots were therefore flying into a combat zone, knowing they would be targeted by said defences, therefore their actions, flying into the face of danger can be called Heroic, Brave, dedicated...the fact that that young girl was caught in the middle of this was unfortunate, and most Americans feel quite sad when viewing that picture. That is why its so famous, its also why I know what eventually happened to that girl.
Now the people who hijacked the airliners, knew they were walking into a situation where nobody on those jets were armed, they slit the throats of the Female flight attendents...cause I guess they figured they might be able to beat up a few girls, then they killed the pilots in cold blood...they then turned on the Twin Towers, No SAMS, NO AAA..easy targets...they didn't kill combatants, they killed office workers..secrataries, businessmen with no means of defending themselves...So they are cowards...plain and simple...We call them "yellow" here in the States. We have also witnessed the true heroism of the same "Islamic warriors" when confronted by a real armed force, not women, and their actions speak louder than words!!! never in the history of warfare has such a pathetic display of military ineptitude been showcased, It should be an emabarassment!the only thing a true military needs when fighting these jokers, is plenty of MRE's to feed them after they surrender. Now, back to flying subjects...

[5by5]

Roc - First of all, I'm not looking for support - you might be, but I'm not as in, I've got my point of view, and you've got yours - after all it's democracy (warts and all) right ?!

Nb. Before you slate me for saying the above, it's not being un-patriotic, it's not being subversive, moreover in all of my above postings I'm more interested in raising the consciousness of our thoughts and actions. E.g. just a few hundred years ago here in the UK it used to be thought that burning of folks at the stake for Heresy was a 'just punishment', but we've since moved onwards to no longer believe that this is appropriate; well, at least some of us have.

Now with respect to being yellow, I imagine that we're talking about the same shade of yellow that we here in the UK call those USA based IRA sympathisers who've, for years, been bank-rolling the IRA terrorists (well that's how we see them in the UK - of course they see themselves as 'freedom fighters') in their 'war' against the 'imperialists' of the UK - e.g. what about some of those obscene (in UK eyes) IRA contingents present in many a USA St.Patricks day parade ? ; and one might say that it's with some satisfaction (and dare I say it, in that it's probably as a direct result of Sept 11th, that many within the USA having now had a taste of what it's like to be on the receiving end of such sudden and murderous outrage, e.g. of the kind which we in the Europe have been suffering for years) that the cash flow to the IRA Terrorist's has seemingly dried up; indeed to such an extent that it seems to be tipping the IRA's balance towards 'Jaw, not War' - let's hope so !

In any event the fact that, as you wrote, whatever the mission was of that B-52 it was undoubtedly a military target. Said target was ringed with AAA weaponry, SAM sites, and other military defences. The B-52 pilots were therefore flying into a combat zone, knowing they would be targeted by said defences, therefore their actions, flying into the face of danger can be called Heroic, Brave, dedicated... and yet within that said same target they knowingly bombed civilians (i.e. you yourself used the phrase 'ringed' - well just what did you think was in the middle ?) - see the picture above - makes it all the more obscene, indeed to the extent that your so called, and pompous, heroism disgusts me !

Imho, flying at high altitude, opening the bomb doors, and dropping your 'dumb' bombs on to your (who knows what) target, is just NOT the same as looking the person / child in the eye and killing / maiming them !
E.g. Would the self same pilot willingly pour Napalm over children if he/she was on the ground and facing them ? Me thinks not; which sort of proves that, SAM's aside, with the luxury of several miles of air between you and your 'target', it's surely (obviously) a lot easier to do. Plus, much like those terrorists of Sept 11th, you are of course, "just following ze orders !" which, palatable or not, is also what the guards at Aushwitz, Buchenwald, Belsen, etc, said in their defence.

Also, when you write 'the fact that the young girl was caught in the middle of this was unfortunate' (of course what she has since done with her life in no way sanctions what was done to her way back when by a USA bomber crew), is that the same as the military euphemism for 'collateral damage' ? because one can be certain that this is the exact same rationale that OBL uses to justify his ends - as indeed as do the IRA, UDA, ETA, (to name but some, e.g. see: http://www.terrorism.net/groups/ - it's amazing what you can find on the net ! ).

I.e. I'm sure that you'd feel just fine-and-dandy about it if it was your child / sibling who was assaulted as such (e.g. limbs blown off, blinded, killed), and you'd accordingly simply turn the other cheek, forgive and forget, etc (queue the Lords Prayer), e.g. what about that young boy (Muhammad Al Durah, 12yrs) who was shot dead / murdered whilst sheltering, terrified, behind his father who was trying to shield him after they became caught under Israeli fire near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip (http://www.serve.com/Impacto/_952600_shooting2_vi.ram) (and whose murder was subsequently reported by many a USA based network as 'caught in cross-fire - yeah, right ! - e.g. that's not how the French media reported it), i.e. what would you do if you were his father / brother / uncle ?

E.g. Let's remind ourselves:

http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/1.jpg
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/2.jpg
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/3.jpg
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/4.jpg
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/5.jpg
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/6.jpg
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/7.jpg
http://www.addameer.org/september2000/focus/images/8.jpg

And don’t kid yourself, the above is a direct result of what Western foreign policy can do (when you see the big picture, et al).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no pacifist, i.e. If you harmed just one hair of any of MY children's heads then I'd hunt you down and kill you like the scum that you are ! (nb. I'm writing that as a turn of phrase, i.e. it's not aimed at anybody personally) as I'm sure that you would me, in the reciprocal position - and accordingly one can surely see how conflicts both start and promulgate.

So, what's to do ?

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: 5by5 ]

[Hoverman]

" ..... and one might say that it's with some satisfaction (and dare I say it, in that it's probably as a direct result of Sept 11th, that many within the USA having now had a taste of what it's like to be on the receiving end of such sudden and murderous outrage, e.g. of the kind which we in the Europe have been suffering for years) that the cash flow to the IRA Terrorist's has seemingly dried up ...."

Sincere apologies to our American friends reading this sick drivel from 5by5.
Frightening thought that he seems to be, or have been, a professional pilot.
Now that he's identified as a pilot with 'Go', he claims not to be Palestinian.
I wonder which is the true version.

[5by5]

Duh, Hoverman, if you try removing the parenthesis - i.e. (the brackets) - around what I said, it'll make a lot more sense.

E.g. You should have read it as "and one might say that it's with some satisfaction that the cash flow to the IRA Terrorist's has seemingly dried up ...." with the bit within the 'brackets' adding some value as to maybe why that has happened.

I any event hopefully it all means that we'll now see a lot less people being killed / maimed in the UK as a result of the decrease in the activities of the IRA; an organisation which has, as a matter of record, been funded from within the USA (amongst others) by various misguided (imho) patriots.

And there's a point, maybe the some of those Irish Americans who've funded the IRA's bombs would like to apologise to those within the UK for the deaths and deformities which they've caused ?!

Ultimately, what's written above in no way promotes any satisfaction with what happened during the events in America on Sept 11th, indeed far from it, e.g. just take a look a the numerous pictures / video of all those children & teenagers who kissed & waved their daddy / mummy goodbye on that fateful morning, never to see them again - it's heart-wrenching beyond words, and I wholeheartedly condemn it !

Nb. It's point of view which I'm expressing - not barbarity - and some of you (very worryingly) can't seem to tell the difference.

Ps. and for what it's worth, I don’t work for Go - duh !

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: 5by5 ]

[Wino]

That is such total crap.

What is going on in the west bank is 200 kids get together to throw rocks at soldiers. In the midst of the 200 kids are one to two Palestinian snipers shooting real bullets at the Isreali soldiers.

The Isreali soldiers return fire on the sniper and many more times than not, get the sniper and no one else. Unfortunately it doesn't work out that way all the time and children and others (none of whom are "innocent") are hit. Innocent children wouldn't be out throwing rocks at soldiers and participating in these demonstrations. They are well organized and planned in advance. Innoncent people stay home.

I honestly think the Isrealis are going about it the wrong way now. I think sniper fire should be returned with ARTILERY. Make martyrs out of the whole lot in one shot.

I blame the parents and clerics who preach the hate. All to get one picture to parade around sky TV or BBC or whatever to drum up support for their side.

Snipers Hiding behind children doens't make them less dangerous. Snipers MUST be dealt with.

Wino

[5by5]

Of course I'm sure that if you look real close at the pictures and the video above you can see that,.... hold on a minute, neither father nor son had a gun, and both where surrounded by.... a large high wall (veritably sitting ducks)..... still I suppose that they were in the neighbourhood and being Palestinians deserved to die - at least according to you credence - you're not Jewish are you ?!

Now following your logic through, does that then give me the right to 'waste' a few of those Oirish Americans who've funded terrorism on the streets of the UK ?

[Roc]

5By5,

I agree with you about the Irish-Americans who fund the IRA, I have stated in this forum before that I hope this war on terrorism will combat all terrorism including the IRA. The part about dropping bombs from 5 miles high is pure rubbish...its called utilizing your resources and fighting smart...and whatever "collateral" damage occurs in the Afghan conflict, there will be only one person to Blame and he isn't American, can you guess who he may be? Just like many who blame the US for killing all those innocent Japanese civillians in Hiroshima......the guys who bommbed Pearl Harbor were ultimately responsible. If I lived in Afghanistan and my kid was killed by a "Daisy cutter" I'd be looking for Osama, for causing all this grief. America rarely starts wars, just finishes them! along with our courageous allies of course! and by the way never in the history of warfare has a war been prosecuted with the utmost care not to inflict damage on innocent civilians, unlike others who perpetrate their idea of war aginst only innocent civilians. Or others who use little kids and woman to hide behind.

[bugg smasher]

5by5,

Your initial portrayal of yourself as a Palestinian in order to solicit emotive reaction constitutes an inflammatory and self-aggrandizing attempt to justify a questionable and feeble thought process, made all the more revolting in the present climate of raw sensibilities. You have little or no grasp of historical precedent, of the unspeakable tragedy that occurred in New York, even less of the immeasurable damage done to the world community of Muslims as a consequence.

Were your posts not so transparently smug and juvenile, they could be construed as a deliberate act of terrorism. You appear to fit the profile of the anthrax mailer.

In my employ, you would be dismissed forthwith, and turned over to the relevant authorities.

Beware my young friend, lest the Men in Black take an unhealthy and active interest in the confused meanderings of your fevered and somewhat limited brain matter.

[Down and Welded]

The bias and prejudice is never far below the surface is it (whatever your views)?

Still, this forum provides participants with an unparalleled opportunity to 'get it off their chests'. I can't help wondering if Osama b Laden, Mohammed Atta et al had been able to indulge themselves hereon that they too mightn't have been satisfied with 'getting it off their chests' thusly (and taking their warped idealism no further!).

[skyclamp]

5by5 - or is it soon to be 1by1??

As mentioned above you have a skill in distorting facts. Take the video pics for a sec. That father and son weren't exactly on a shopping outing now were they? He was taking his son out to some "Israeli Bashing" on a nice sunny day, not something I, or most of the pilot community would choose to do here. They therefore 'calculatedly' entered a conflict zone, expecting to get hurt, unless they have been lobotomised just a bit earlier. Their death was being "asked for" by simply being there. That father was an idiot in the first place to take his son and I'm sure even you MIGHT not have done that.
My kid for instance is not allowed to throw stones even at English people down the road, let alone armed soldiers at the most violent part of the middle east.

[5by5]

D&W - too right about bias and prejudice.

Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in-for-me ! but I suppose that if your brought up on a diet of 'might, is right', and that America is (apparently) never ever wrong, then one can probably understand why some views expressed on these pages are as they are; oh well:

bugg smasher - I suggest you try having a listen to what this American has to say: Free speech (http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/ramfiles/dnnoamchomsky.ram) (it's necessarily rather long, but very much worth spending some time over)
Suffice to say I'm glad that I don't work for somebody so seemingly intolerant, to anybody who dares expressive an alternative viewpoint, as you seem to be !

Roc - Good god, we actually agree on something, who knows where this might end ! However I'm afraid to say that ''it's called utilizing your resources and fighting smart' is almost certainly what OBL would say as well. But I too agree that hiding behind skirt-tails is as bright a shade of yellow that you can get.

[WangEye]

Help!

As a much older (and maybe wiser) observer (rather than aviator)I am disheartened by this thread. 5x5 has many valid points and opinions and he has a right to those opinions. If you disagree with them - fine, say so. But the idea that because he seeks to explain he should be punished, denied a living, or even life, rather proves his points.

Can I direct our US contibutors to their own revolutionary Declaration of Independence which was based on that of the French revolution. Can I direct you to the definitions of democracy (to be found in any dictionary / encyclopedia). Can I direct you to read up what the US flyers who survived the Battle of Midway (1942) now think (and it doesn't involve revenge, hate, dismissal or denial of other human beings, etc.). Can I ask you to consider how the destruction of life and property and the destruction of opportunity or hope (by any "side") contribute to progress or a better world. Can I ask you to think and study, to examine your prejudices (try reading A.C.Grayling - an eminent contemporary philosopher).

Intellect and worldly knowledge are not requirements for pilotting aircraft and, in spite of the above, I am heartened to see you all engaged in such a robust debate, but keep it respectful of both each other and of 'truth' - if you threaten, or seek to surpress opinion with threats, who are you mimicking - Washington? Mandela? Mao? Stalin?

(Bit of a rant!!!!!)

WE