AIPA allows SH pay for endorsement

[Mud Skipper]

Completely out of kilter with the industry the reformed AIPA has endorsed EBA 7 which is now being voted on and in effect makes all new Captains pay 34K in reduced wages just so existing pilots can maintain CPI.

What type of association do we have that organizes a paycut for it's members.

God help us as we run into LH EBA negotiations.
How much will a 380 Captain have to save up under this brave new system. :}

[Capt Kremin]

If the SH pilots don't like it, they can vote it down. Simple Democracy. They better be prepared to back themselves up though.

[Mud Skipper]

But Capt Kremin Capt Kremin, the peasants are revolting.

From what I'm told 95% of potential captains in the next few years are not on the 737 and so don't get a vote - no democracy at work here.

Looks like the new AIPA is no different to the old - if it ain't the 744 LHS it doesn't matter.

BTW any one hear how the 380 negotiations are going?

[blueloo]

Mud Skipper - whilst I understand the problem, and dont necessarily agree with the system - the same can be said for the last Long Haul EBA - it was a crap deal, it traded a pay increase for the (now defunct) Singapore S/O Basing - I couldnt vote on that, yet I plan to return to L/H.

Where does it end - maybe a unified EBA ?

[Mud Skipper]

Blue,

The principle issue here is the AIPA REFORM GROUP has instigated or approved a scenario which will set one pilot groups interests against another.

There is no question SH Captains will en mass vote for this deal and in doing so display to the company just how un unified the pilot body can be.

God help us when AIPA is doing the oldpaddocks job.
Perhaps this attitude is the reason for the faction fighting in what was the ARG.

Mailine pilot against pilot, well done boys. :mad::mad::mad:


Anyhow you makes the NJS pilots look like industrial warriors - good luck to them btw.

[Mud Skipper]

Just back to the top until the end of the week when voting closes.

Those who are yet to vote please think carefully. :suspect::suspect::suspect:

[Capt Kremin]

The principle issue here is the AIPA REFORM GROUP has instigated or approved a scenario which will set one pilot groups interests against another.


I think it was more that this, after two years of negotiations, would be a deal that might stand a chance of being voted in. You don't have to vote it in and I am sure the boys will go back to the Company in that case.

Of course, the company may draw a line in the sand and it will be up to the SH pilots if they are willing to cross it.

[topgun0007]

Me thinks this is absolutely hilarious.
Typical of the bulls+!t mentallity that the AIPA Com is adorned with.
They crap on about JQ and the JPC selling out there members, then stuff not only the new borne, but also the existing SH crew.
What a pack of Wan**ers.
Totally hipocritical, if it is not a 744 then it aint worth Sh1T!!
Captain Woods needs to take a good hard look at himself and what he is doing to his crew.
There exists some good guys in the COM, and not surprisingly they are all from the 73.
At least the JPC had the purpose of securing the work, controlling the seniority list and then going about improving the T's and C's.
What is Captain Woods cunning plan?

[mustafagander]

Popgun,

The JPC certainly did great things for Ts & Cs. :ugh:

[Going Boeing]

Popgun

The negotiators for the SH EBA were B737 pilots - not a single B744 pilot in sight. I gather you have never had to negotiate an EBA - it's much easier to sit on the sidelines and just slag off.

Having said that, I admit I'm in agreeance with Mud Skipper. It is morally wrong to allow management to bring in a "pay for endorsement/promotion" system.

[Keg]

Readers who are unaware of the EBA deal should note that it isn't a 'pay for your endorsement' per se because there is no money outlaid and no money sal sacked for the endorsement or even mention of 'training pay' or so on. What has happened is that there are reduced payments for the first few years in rank (with no mention of why) which results in a saving to the company equal to about the endorsement costs.

The theory from the negotiating team is that this was the best they could do with the various angles they'd tried and so they protected the 'top rate' of pay which Captains would be on rather than distribute towards the bottom end and not have a pay rise for the last couple of years of the deal. Of course, some contributors believe that a pay rise for every year of the deal should be a given as well as protecting current first year rates- a not unreasonable proposition- but at the end of the day, this is the best the SH EBA guys could do with the current negotiations and it's up to the SH pilot group to express their joy or otherwise with the proposal.

PS: I'm one of the guys that would be affected by the reduced conditions for Captains....I'd hate to be accused of having a 'hidden' agenda.

[blueloo]

Looking at the table - there is a $4.30 dollar pay cut for NEW captains in 2008 - followed by a series of 3% pay increases. A NEW Captain in 2009, will be above the existing Captains hourly rate by just under $3. A NEW Captain in 2010, will be $10 per hour above the current rate.

If you are an existing Captain, then there is no cut at all.

[cunninglinguist]

Jeez, is'nt this interesting.
Up front pay for endo, sal sac, training pay or less pay for initial promotion.
Matters not how you dress it up, or what you call it.................IT IS PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING.
If you get promoted and are earning less than everybody else doing the same job, you are PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING ( in capitals twice for the slower among us )
If this gets voted in there will be a fair few that will have to step down off their " you've lowered the standards for everybody " soapboxes, me thinks :hmm:

[blueloo]

Well I neither I am not particularly happy with this deal -but before anyone gets carried away lovely little emotive quotes - bear in mind these figures of 34k have been taken off someones privately built home MS excel spreadsheet - so I am not sure how the figures have been actually come up with - I suspect there is a bit of liberal license being applied - and everyone has since joined the bandwagon without substantiating the facts, also this lovely little emotive quote of PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING is a GEM - I have not read any material which says you have to pay 1 cent for training.

In terms of coming from different fleets (unless you are golden bidding a captain backwards from 744/767/330)- I am sure (other than maybe a 744 F/O)for most F/O's it would be a substantial pay increase. Bearing in mind - these things are being looked at and quoted only in isolation of the entire package.

As I said It is not a particularly good deal, it is however significantly better than the last - I am not sure if it is worth a YES or NO Vote (it would be a brave person who says we cannot get better - i think we have heard that before), but rather than dressing up the facts/and figures with some add lib, maybe people should talk to the SH reps and get some real information, so you can have an informed opinion.

[Keg]

If you get promoted and are earning less than everybody else doing the same job, you are PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING ( in capitals twice for the slower among us )

Sorry, that argument just doesn't hold water. When I became an F/O on the 767 I was on considerably less than an F/O (doing the same job in your terms) who had been in QF for 11 years. Even when I checked out on the 744 I was still on year 11 pay earning a little less than those on year 12 pay. Was I paying for my training? Most F/Os on the 767 are on different rates of pay. Most S/Os in the company are on different rates of pay.

Whilst I'm always one for change and a radical overhaul of the pay system to redistribute things towards a more equitable outcome (F/Os on the 767 work longer and harder than any S/O on the B744 and should be remunerated accordingly....spare me the arguments folks, I've seen both aircraft), you can't just throw lines like yours out there cunning and not expect to get smacked down.

[Mud Skipper]

Captain Kremin,

You don't have to vote it in

This vote is in the bag, existing eligible Captains plus those F/O’s already with training slots hold the numbers and all benefit from this travesty. Even if all the F/O were against the deal they could still not win and you could probably expect some to take the fast money as they are too far away from promotion to worry about the long term. One pundit has suggested a 70% YES vote and I would not be surprised if it was even higher.

Does this make it a good deal thou, NO, it simply means those able to cast a vote are satisfied, in politics it’s called Pork Barrelling and it stinks which ever way you take it and the Association should be above that type of behaviour.

topgun0007

absolutely hilarious

Depends on where you sit I suppose. Although not directly affected I’m saddened as this action weakens one of the few (partially) effective pilots unions in Australia. The tone of WK on Qrewroom sums up this up with his laughter striking to the bone.

I fear if IW does have a plan it’s just that, a plan, this vote on the other hand is reality for as you say their ‘new born’ and reflects badly on those willing to support it in the first place.

Keg,

As cunninglinguist says;

Matters not how you dress it up, or what you call it.................IT IS PAYING FOR YOUR TRAINING

The association is moving money out of the new born hands to give others the CPI they should be regardless entitled to.

this was the best they could do with the various angles they'd tried

Well I never heard of them trying the angle NJS is on. Only when the aircraft are about to be parked will the company honestly negotiate – up until then were just a pack of S*ft C*cks as a certain CEO called us.

Blueloo,

How about you factor in the CPI in those figures and then see what is happening. For that matter try using a CPI of 5%+ which is what’s truly happening to our demographic.

True it’s an increase for any F/O upgrading but it’s 7.5% less (reducing) for the first three years – apart from the 737 F/O on the negotiating committee who’s Command will still be at the full rate.:}:}:}

Keg,

I’m not against different pay rates for years of service but this is not how it should be bought in.
This plan makes Machiavelli look like a saint.


BTW who remembers what the trade off was when the previous graduated pay rates was removed?:rolleyes:

[Capt Kremin]

Mud skipper, you keep saying AIPA is responsible for this. All that has happened is that the negotiations have got to a point where AIPA feels as though it can endorse this deal as acceptable and then put it up for a vote.

If it is as bad as you say then it will be voted down. If not, then the majority of SH plots can live with it. If they can't live with it then I am sure there AIPA will back the SH pilots with any industrial action they wish to take, because I am sure that is what will be required to get a better deal than this.

So the question is asked of the SH pilots, What are you prepared to accept and what are you prepared to do to get it?

Anyone saying this is paying for endorsement is not aware of how it all works.

I didn't get full rates for any rank until I was in the company for 12 years. Was that paying for my endorsements? What a crock of Sh!t:ugh:

[Mud Skipper]

Kremin,

How I wish I lived in such a simple world.

If it is as bad as you say then it will be voted down.

Unfortunately this insidiously deal is sure to get up as SELF INTEREST will rule the day and yes AIPA is responsible for allowing this divisive temptation to be put to the members.

The agreement is a sell out and should not have passed the COM. Forget calling it paying for an endorsement if you must, it's just a paycut endorsed by the Association. Great work fellas.


Damn if I can get WK's laughter out of my head.:\:\:\

[TineeTim]

it's just a paycut endorsed by the AssociationWhat are you talking about? It's a pay scale. Simple really. No paycut for anyone.

AIPA is responsible for allowingWhat are you talking about? AIPA is responsible to the members. Now the members will vote.

The agreement is a sell out and should not have passed the COMWhat are you talking about? If it's that bad the members won't vote for it.

Why does Democracy scare you? Because you're much smarter than the rest of us? We don't have your brilliant insight, therefore we'll be led down the garden path. Please.:mad:

[Mud Skipper]

OK TT, I'll concede we are talking a payscale reduction presented by the association to be put to the vote by people who will not be hurt by such.

The question is not about democracy but protecting and representing all members and this EBA fails to do so as the pork barrelling involved adversely effects those unable to defend themselves with a vote.

Anyhow, voting closes at 4pm, I guess we'll have a result by Monday if not close of business tonight. God help us with the LH EBA (No I don't mean Geoff). :ouch:

[Tankengine]

Mud Skipper,

History,
Are you aware that prior to the last EBA there was a 5 year scale?

The Longhaul EBA 5 [I think, or 6] gave "Q" pilots going to the 737 pay in years of service rather than rank. [as happens on longhaul types]
This meant "A" pilots newly Captains were on year 1 or 2 pay[after 10+ years on type as F/Os] while new 737 Captains from longhaul were straight onto year 5!:confused:

The next shorthaul EBA fixed this by bringing all Captains up to the same rate, and increasing F/O rates for pilots with less than 11 years of service. New "A" Captains gained, junior F/Os gained, senior F/Os screwed until they become Captains or this EBA where rates will increase to 64% instead of 59% of Captains pay.

Not saying this EBA is perfect but history has a part in the negotiations, we look like going BACK to a graded system on the 737.

Somebody ALWAYS loses when any system is changed, just hope the longhaul EBA doesn't do the same thing!:eek:

How many 744 Captains [or even 767 orA330] are on year 1-11 pay?!:E

[Keg]

767 has ten who would be on less than year 12 pay rates. :ok:

[Capt Kremin]

I was on 2 year SO rates and a maximum of 9 year FO rates on a couple of fleets. My first Captain rate was the 10 year one. I didn't claim I had been sold out by AIPA during that time because it would be ludicrous.

The bonus has been conveniently left out of a lot of the discussion both here and in Qrewroom. Yes I understand that there will be years where it won't be the full 6% or maybe even not paid at all. When it is paid however I bet you won't be hearing about how AIPA sold everyone out.

[TineeTim]

EBA accepted. 358 to 162.

[Mud Skipper]

Basically if you don't like the conditions bid onto something else.

Stop whinging like girls.

Gee derek you sound a lot like SZ (one of the SH reps.)

You think better available elsewhere - leave ! (ps. this is not sarcasm !)

Great arguments from a union rep.

Tank Engine, thanks for the refresher, sounds about right;

Somebody ALWAYS loses when any system is changed, just hope the longhaul EBA doesn't do the same thing!

Lets hope we can do better, perhaps it should be Geoff's bonus which loses not a fellow pilot.

[cunninglinguist]

I don't feel I have been " smacked down " at all Keg, but do feel you are full of the proverbial.
From what all your workmates above have said, a new captain will be on less than he would have been before the new proposal, call it what you like, its a reduction in conditions for someone.
I have seen elsewhere in this thread the argument that basically whatever happens, a new captain will be substantially better off than if he was an effo.........kinda like a new Jetstar effo being substantially better off than when he was flying in GA, eh :hmm:

[TineeTim]

From what all your workmates above have said, a new captain will be on less than he would have been before the new proposal

WRONG! Have you read the (now accepted) proposal?

Didn't think so.

[Capt Kremin]

Current QF 737 Captains are on $229.60 per hour as of today.

As of tomorrow they are on $236.48 per hour plus 18k sign on bonus and a possible 6% perfomance bonus.

Any FO with a 737 Command slot beginning before next July will be on the same deal without the sign on bonus unless they were a 737 FO, in which case they would get 11k sign on.

Any FO with a command slot after July next year will be on $225.31 per hour once checked out with a possible 6% performance bonus, rising to $266.16 P/H + 6 % in 2011.

Thems the facts.

[Blip]

Although those hourly rates sound good I feel some qualifying points should be made.

1. The hourly rates quoted above applies only to the scheduled block time (from pushback to shutdown). The time spent flight planning before the first flight of the day (one hour) and subsequent flights (which can be anywhere between 35 minutes and 3 hours) does not count.

2. Over the past four months, my credit hours have been only 68% of my duty hours. That is to say I have to be on duty for 1 hour 27 minutes to recieve 1 hour of pay. So $236 per hour is really only $160 (still not bad I suppose).

Also if we lose any flying due to disruptions which are always completely out of our control (diversion, engineering faults, missing connections etc), we lose the pay. We usually fly around 75 to 80 stick hours per month. We were only assured 55 hours credit (now 58 hours with this new EBA).

Clarification: We are paid for the time it takes to divert but not for any subsequent loss of flying. If we hold for an hour due to fog then land at the original destination, we are not paid that extra hour.

[cunninglinguist]

As of tomorrow they are on $236.48 per hour plus 18k sign on bonus and a possible 6% perfomance bonus

Any FO with a 737 Command slot beginning before next July will be on the same deal without the sign on bonus unless they were a 737 FO, in which case they would get 11k sign on

Any FO with a command slot after July next year will be on $225.31 per hour once checked out with a possible 6% performance bonus, rising to $266.16 P/H + 6 % in 2011.


Not too bright, are ya Tinee :hmm:

When I went to Kindy, 11k ( and nothing ) was less than 18K, and 225/hr was less than 236/hr

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Got up by 69% :rolleyes: