OBA Crash

[NH2390]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-bk-planecrash-081907,0,7050536.story?coll=orl_home_promo

Anyone out there with any details?

[JABI]

Google search:

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/breakingnews/plane081907.htm

http://www.wftv.com/news/13925767/detail.html

[MikeSamuel]

"No comment. No comment. No comment," said Adrian Thompson, the owner.

Hmm, great PR there. :rolleyes:

[BHenderson]

The press are a 'ferrel beast' you can't tell them anything at the moment.

[davey147]

Sad news, I hope the pilot will pull through without any longterm injuries.

Adrian acted professional, you cant comment on an incident like this until you know the FACTS yourself! which I guess he doesnt until the FAA have completed the investigation.

[smith]

News Video here (http://www.wftv.com/video/13926797/index.html)

[SD.]

Let's hope the fella gets well soon :ok:

I disgaree Davey, maybe something along the lines of..............

"We are in the process of contacting the students family, we obviously have our thoughts with Mr.... and hope he makes a speedy recovery. We will be assisting the FAA to explain how this accident happened etc."

Although, it's very easy to say that sitting behind a PC. To be the owner of an aircraft that crashes, or the instructor of a student that crashes must be a horrible feeling.

[davey147]

I disgaree Davey, maybe something along the lines of..............
"We are in the process of contacting the students family, we obviously have our thoughts with Mr.... and hope he makes a speedy recovery. We will be assisting the FAA to explain how this accident happened etc."

Yes he could have, but having been in the position myself, you are always told to provide no comment, until you have actually prepared something to say. As you said, when you have a tv crew with a camera in front of your face, its very hard to think of what to say, so its best to say nothing at all. If you say something wrong the legal implications will be negative.

Thats all I meant by that he acted professional, he'll probably provide a press release in the near future.

[coodem]

Its the USA, so the only press release should be from a solicitor. I agree, its best to say nothing.

[Kengineer-130]

I would agree 110% with Adrians comments, You can't trust the press, they are a lying sneaky bunch of two faced f**ks who would sell thier family for a story and twist anything you say to make it what they want :mad::ugh:......:mad::ugh:, I hope everyone noticed the typical hyping up of "the plane PLUMMETED into the airport" :rolleyes::ugh:....

Speedy recovery to the pilot, having myself learnt at OBA, all I can say from my experience is that the aircraft were maintained superbly, and snags were fixed asap.
Flight training is a risky business, as you can have the best instructors in the world, but a solo student is a solo STUDENT, I think most people who have learnt to fly a plane have had a few scary moments....with various outcomes.. Hopefully the guy will make a speedy recovery, lets leave the investigation to the pros.

[No Country Members]

If one of my students had just crashed and burned, I am not sure "legal implications" would or should be my first thought.

[tinto-85]

I hope this Guy is ok, During my time in OBA the General census was that the Liberty was a Difficult aircraft to land, I heard of a few near incidents while there and I believe this is the Second Liberty to crash, A previous incident saw one Balloon, Stall and on touch down the landing gear collapsed... So maybe the old reliable Cessnas should not be phased out.....

[JABI]

this is the Second Liberty to crash

Unfortunately it's the third:

July 31st 2006: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20060809X01136&ntsbno=ANC06LA102&akey=1

Feb 21st 2007: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070314X00288&key=1

Other accidents at OBA:

May 16 2006: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20060628X00844&ntsbno=MIA06CA111&akey=1

June 4 2004:
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20020606X00816&ntsbno=MIA02LA105&akey=1

Feb 25 2002:
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20020226X00257&ntsbno=ATL02LA053&akey=1

Sept 5 2001:
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20011001X02019&ntsbno=MIA01LA230&akey=1

That's 7 in 6 years.

[NH2390]

I'm not sure that's such a bad record, and no fatalities. I know of schools with a lot worse.

[smith]

With the amount of flying thet goes on at OBA, statistically I would say that is a very low incident rate. They have many, many aircraft each with a high daily utilisation. If you compare that to a flight school with one C152, which gets flown 8 hours a week I think the statistics will show OBA has a very low incident rate. (note: this is just my opinion, I don't know if the stats will support this or not).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am pleased that this thread has not veered off into unsubstantiated speculation.

As a flying instructor I have had the terrible experience of sending off a student solo who subsequently crashed. Its a most unpleasant experience. But it has happened from the very first year that aviation came into being.

My thoughts are with the student and the instructor.

WWW

[Shamrogue]

Firstly,

With the thoughts of the rest of you - I hope the pilot is ok and gets back into the air soon - please god.

Personally, I beleive that in training we sometimes forget "aircraft bite". Some more spectacurly than others. Recently, I moved to a new type - now unlike the Liberty and it's stall charachteristics are interesting. However, on hour 1, I was taken up, shown the simple side of the stall and the not so simple side. So in reality, in the early stages of your training you simply may not have enough experience to be able to jump 100% to whatever the aircraft or the environment throws at you! Or in later times for that matter. And perhaps that is why we need to keep an eye or our currency.
Finally, I did some training with OBA back in December and I have to say I found them as good as any training organisation I've been with over the years. Like some of the others I will say any technical query with an a/c was sorted there and then and on this point I was really impressed.

Safety will always be an issue and we have always got to be vigilant, flying is fun but it has it's serious side too.

Cheerio
Shamrogue

[JABI]

OK let's do this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/ARG0701.pdf

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/topics/gatrend.pdf

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/topics/instructional.pdf

Come to your own conclusions.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Jabi, thank you.

Provide whatever data that you want and let people make their own decision.

Personally I owe no sympathy to OBA and Adrian..

But I won't tolerate libelous posts here.

Keep it specific, keep it true, keep it defensible and then you can post away with my blessing.

WWW

[snoepys]

I was quite shocked to read about this accident as i was in the school just back in June.I found it to be ok.Lets hope this guy James Hull gets well soon.

[smith]

Any news on hoe James Hull is doing?

[JABI]

A bit of a weird post CR, I am not sure what you are trying to get across here.

It has NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING to do with the school

A student goes to school A, pays school A for training, flies aircraft registered to school A, receives instruction by Instructors employed by school A, and is unfortunate enough to crash a school aircraft at the home airport of school A.

No matter how you look at it, the school has everything to do with it.
NTSB and FAA investigations, insurance claims, media attention, us writing about it on a forum, everything.

As to the exact cause of the crash, that is a different story, that needs to be determined by people (FAA/NTSB) more knowledgeable then you and me.
I assume that is what you were trying to say.


The media cannot be relied on as a source of information regarding the matter

I disagree, because of the media, we now about the event, the location and the status of the pilot involved.
Not all media outlets have aviation experts standing by. As a result the way of reporting is often somewhat overly dramatic; eg " plummeted to earth", "great ball of fire" .
But without them we would not know anything.


OBA run a bloody safe shop They should like any other professional training organization. That is what you should expect as a student, that is your right as a customer. If you don't see this happening, you pack up and leave.
Unfortunately for a lot of us, as primary students, we don't know any better and assume the way a particular school is run is the industry standard.
The misguided notion that anywhere else the same is going on so why change.

This one, however is in one of OBA's libertys

So why is this different?

a pig to land as a student pilot, but totally 'land-able' no less.

So this is a plane you can only land if you are a "real" pilot? What?
What are you suggesting or implying here? The Liberty XL is not a training aircraft? It should only be flown by real pilots like yourself?

Here's a no-brainer; every airplane is a pig to land by student pilots, that's why they are students. Learning how to land is the hardest part of flight training, regardless of aircraft type.
We all know the joke: ..." I'll teach you how to fly for $50, I'll teach you how to land for $4,950...."
Regardless of aircraft type, statistically most incidents and accidents occur during take-off and landing phases of flight.

this is a ****-happens situation, and one that could have been avoided. No more speculation,

I think you just did. How could it have been avoided? If you are implying some sort of error or blame you have just contradicted your entire post.

[SD.]

"Your previous post insinuates to a degree that my comments regarding the liberty are unfounded and made without experience. So understand when i say, it is reknown yes reknown by almost all of the boys and girls i know that fly it, as being a tricky little lady to land, more so than other trainers. Castoring nose wheel, finger brakes, spring gear etc, so compared to the 28's and cessnas, it is, in fact a more difficult craft to fly, no arguement."

If this is the case (and I don't doubt for one minute it's not) then is it wise to have an aircraft as a primary trainer on your fleet, which is known to a be a pig a to land for low houred students? It's not the first OBA liberty to be severely damaged on landing.

[Contacttower]

OBA run a bloody safe shop


The stats don't really support this....and I have to say that having spent time at Ormond, not with OBA but with the other club on the field I don't agree with that at all. The Liberty is starting to gain a reputation- along with instrument and engine computer problems it does indeed seem to be more prone to landing accidents than the PA28/C152 (ever wondered why it hasn't really caught on in the UK?).

I hope the pilot gets well soon.

[BEagle]

Perhaps the reason that the Liberty hasn't (yet?) 'caught on in Europe' is that it only received European certification in June of this year?

If it teaches pilots to fly at the correct approach speed and to land properly, then bring it on!

[Contacttower]

Perhaps the reason that the Liberty hasn't (yet?) 'caught on in Europe' is that it only received European certification in June of this year?



Sorry I was under the impression that it had been certified earlier- obviously I was incorrect though. Even so it doesn't like grass and has a high landing speed and long take off run compared to current training types, which I would imagine would make it rather unpopular in the UK.


If it teaches pilots to fly at the correct approach speed and to land properly, then bring it on!


As for landing properly why not just make everyone learn on Cubs/Tigermoths if that is the line you're going to take.

[BEagle]

Because there aren't enough left!

Slam it on at any-old-speed landings are regrettably all too common in things like the PA28 which will tolerate an enormous amount of landing abuse.

[Hour Builder]

A few of you guys gota get back in your box and wind your neck in, jabi especially you-hate people who think they know it all!

I convinced a good mate of mine to do some hour building with OBA recently, and he arrived back in UK 2 days after the crash, to find out it was his room mate who had crashed.

The pilot is really not in a good way, and I think a few of you have lost sight of the real promlem. Stop banging on about the school, and say a prayer for John Hull and his family.

HB

[wannabe there]

"The pilot is really not in a good way, and I think a few of you have lost sight of the real problem"

So what is the real problem then HB? This thread is not about the pilot - although everyone wishes him well, obviously - it is discussing the recent safety issues of some flight schools. There is obviously a reason why this guy is the state he is in, and I think people are entitled to discuss it....

Suggest you take some of your own advice and wind your own neck in. If you don't like the way a thread is going, you can always stop reading it

[Hour Builder]

Oh dear another another pointless comment.

No one knows what happened etc, so any comments or thoughts about the school are irrelavent without the facts. So as the thread is entitled "OBA Crash" I would say this thread should be about the pilot.

Makes me laugh, how threads regarding this school always go on for soooo long. I've been there 3 times, the place is always busy with students, probably due to the amount of publicity it gets from these forums.

With regards to %'s of incidents at this school compared to the amount hours flown, I would bet they are no different from most other schools.

Wannabe there, do me a favour, dont comment unless you have something constructive to say-based on a fact!

[wannabe there]

If you want to discuss the health of the pilot only, then please do so, but don't force it on everyone else. Who do you think you are telling people what they should be talking about?!

And with regards to the facts, look them up yourself and come to your own conclusions

[Hour Builder]

yawn.... dial nine whine whine mate.....:ugh:

[XL319]

The XL2 has had a few problems. I know that at OBA an XL2 started to catch fire about a year or so ago, one pilot crashed another and now this. I have to say Ive heard they are tricky to land.

[worldpilot]

Is this problem with the Liberty peculiar with OBA? I would say NO.:ok:

This accident is just like any other accident in the aviation environment. Nothing special about it.

I'm at Ormond in 3 weeks and I would go to extend my best wishes to the the pilot.

WP

[Hour Builder]

Yep thats exactly it.

The unfortunate reality is from reading below, he more then likely forgot to retract the flaps- the question is, would he have done this anyway regardless of where he was trained.

You can all bang on about OBA etc, but try and prove that this wouldn't have happened anyway! None of us know what the standard of training he received from that particular instructor, so all of the assumptions and "chinese whispers!" you hear from your brothers mates cousin count for jack!

HB

************************************************************ *******************
** Report created 8/23/2007 Record 2 **
************************************************************ ********************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 550XL Make/Model: XL2 Description: LIBERTY XL-2
Date: 08/19/2007 Time: 1612

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: ORMOND BEACH State: FL Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON ATTEMPTED GO AROUND, STALLED AND CRASHED ONTO THE AIRPORT,
ORMOND BEACH, FL

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: 1
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: WIND 06010 10SM SCT027 SCT035 33/26 A3014
OTHER DATA

Activity: Training Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: ORLANDO, FL (SO15) Entry date:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Please do all carry on posting on this thread.

Please do all be under no illusion that it is being closely monitored, IP addresses stored, account details cross referenced and logs recorded.

Any ess h one tee stirring by rival schools/instructors/owners/students/mittys is at risk of a libel case so keep it legally defensible.

I've sent hundreds on their first solo. The one who crashed on landing was one of the better ones. Actually it was his second solo - as such a more risky exercise. I've sent plenty of 16 year olds off in 57ft wingspan motorgliders with castoring tailwheels which sure as hell are more challenging than the Libertys in question...

So I think we should quit blaming the aircraft.

Blaming anything ahead of the official report is a waste of time. You may as all learn that now in your career rather than later.

WWW

[Hour Builder]

Couldn't agree more wish I could put it as well as that. :-D

[JABI]

So I think we should quit blaming the aircraft.

I'm not so sure.....
NTSB database, since July of 2006 there have been 5 accidents involving the Liberty not including the last one ( hasn't made it to the database yet.)

All of them landing:

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060802X01073&key=1

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060809X01136&key=1

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20061214X01786&key=1

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070314X00288&key=1

This one shouldn't really count, but still in landing phase of flight.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20061220X01810&key=1


Same period for the Cessna 152, 38 accidents.
Number of aircraft on the US civil registry:

Liberty XL 89
Cessna 152 3800

Which means over the period of a year 6/89.....that's 1:15
vs 38/3800 that's 1:100.

Call it fuzzy math, but there is something going on out there.

[jayteeto]

Its a long time since I have posted about OBA and it is 5 years since I flew there so I will limit my response to comment on what I have read here. Some people do not like this schools management style and it does not matter what information is supplied, they will take ANY opportunity to slag AT off. Accidents happen in the training world, fact. Students can be unpredictable WHEREVER you go, no school is exempt. Feel safe in the knowledge that if this aircraft has inherent problems and is the cause of accidents, the country to identify this and sue sue sue will be the USA. I am tempted to believe that a lack of lawsuits so far, speaks for itself.
As stated years ago, I was a squadron commander of a RAF Central Flying School Unit when I visited OBA. They taught with hard rules, but they did what was promised on the 'tin'.

[Hour Builder]

You'd do the CPL on the warrior and 5 hours complex on their Arrow. Dont think they'd use the liberty.

Something people perhaps haven't mentioned, is that when people say the Liberty is twitchy, hard to land with its sensitive controls etc etc, they are saying that compared to other aircraft they have flown. I would say a good majority of OBA students have not flown before, and the XL2 may be their first aircraft to fly. Therefore to them it feels "normal" as they are used to nothing else.....just a thought

HB

[captain_rossco]

HB's spot on with the comments above, a point that has been somewhat overlooked!

I've no doubt Liberty students making a transition into the Warrior, feel like its going up in an armchair!

Regards

CR

[Andy Nicholls]

After that incident on the 21st February, you have missed out the 3 OTHERS that happened while I was there.

1 Student had a prop strike at St Augustine a few days later, another had a tail strike a few days after that, and a canopy detached from another the following week. Anyone want the photos?

[Hour Builder]

Lets hope he doesnt read this an sue you.

Odd how someone crashed at JAX, seeing as you don't go to JAX when a student at OBA doing a PPL?

HB

[Andy Nicholls]

He pranged at Saint Augustine. The give away was when he leaft OBA in the morning in an XL2, and came home from Saint Augustine in a car? He told us over lunch at the Golf club that he had been trying to make his solo cross country before he went home. I sat my RT practical with him the day before.

[BEagle]

The requirements for the NPPL are:

NATIONAL PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE
Simple Single-engine Aeroplane (SSEA) Course

COURSE OBJECTIVES
The course shall be designed so that student pilots are given adequate theoretical knowledge and flight training in order to ensure they are capable of safely operating an aeroplane whilst flying in weather conditions appropriate to the visual flight rules.

COURSE DESCRIPTION
The course shall be undertaken at a UK flying club/school or flying training organisation

Which means a UK flying club/school or FTO, not one in the US.

However, credit towards the NPPL (SSEA) will be given for flying training conducted elsewhere on a case-by-case basis - provided that the training has been conducted by a JAR-FCL FI. That means a real JAR-FCL FI, not someone else allegedly 'supervised' by a JAR-FCL FI.

I will remind NPLG Ltd to be aware of these requirements.

[torfinn]

Sorry to see this thread fall to simpel arguments.
I know OBA, PPL'd there in the Liberty (august 6) and was very sorry to hear that a student, who I haven't met, crashed. Accidents unfortunately happen, and we learn from them. I hope and pray, that the student recovers.
When I was at OBA (had to go there twice due to bad weather), safety was the no. 1 priority for the instructors and for Ken and Bill in flightops. Even the slightest technical problem with any OBA plane was imidiatly handled by the very professional mechanics. Who was there 7 days a week, always ready and competent. Weather was constantly a problem (Sunny Florida....not a guarantee for sure!), but the school didn't hesitate to ground us all, if the weather, for example the wind conditions, wasn't safe. The rule for solo flight was max 12 knots, max 6 knot crosswind factor and no gusts.
I met and spoke to Thomson three times. At all occasions he was friendly, helpfull, professional and positive.
The Liberty isn't the easiest plane, but the instructors know it, and they train the students accordingly. Unfortunately this cannot 100 % prevent accidents. Of course things can go wrong.
Let's try and keep a discussion like this, originating from a terrible accident, at a mature and wellfounded level.

Regards Rune, Denmark

[Shaft109]

How is the pilot of the liberty doing?

HB - Good luck with the CPL skills test mate, and the ATPL's.

Never mind Andy, one day you might be ferried around by HB himself! You obviously are a very bitter person.

As for the accidents you mention. Prop-strikes and tail-strikes are usually pilot errors, and a canopy came off! wow, I've done AEF in the Chipmunk with the frigger open all the way! Big deal. PA28 doors pop open for fun, so do C152/172 windows.

If you want twitchy landings, try the G109. Tail-dragger. 57-ft wingspan. Ground effect. Hundreds of young cadets manage it each year.

As for "cross-country should be done in UK" the rest of the world -USA included- turns out thousands of competent pilots each year.

Grow up man.

[mlee]

Hour Builder good luck with the ATPL’s .

Will you be going over to OBA to do your CPL? I’m starting my CPL with them next week and really looking forward to it. Every time I have spoken with Adrian he has been nothing but helpful and professional.

Think Andy has had one too many pints of orange juice!!:=

[Keygrip]

I've always made it an absolute rule NOT to edit a thread that has been "taken under the wing" of another moderator, but I'm disgusted at the messages I've edited out.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. The forum is for PROFESSIONAL training. You were all beyond juvenile.

The messages are, however, stored in the Toolshed and WWW is welcome to put them back if he sees fit. On the other hand, he may see fit to take his own action.

A sad day for PPRuNe to read stuff like that. Very sad.

[OBA]

NTSB 6120 Narrative - Aircraft Accident N550XL

1. As the above is now a matter of public record it is copied to this forum:

"The company has a policy and standard operating procedure (SOP) for all solo operations that "touch and go's" are not permitted.
Additionally for Student pilots undergoing solo flight the following additional limitations are endorsed:

Max. Wind: 12 knots
Max Crosswind: 06 knots
Visibility: 5 s.m.
Ceiling: 2,000 feet

The day prior to the accident the Student achieved solo status and pre-solo training requirements under FAA FAR Part 61. The required endorsements were made to his Student Pilot Certificate and logbook including the limiting SOP's. The student was briefed prior to the first solo flight that he was to make only one circuit of the traffic pattern and land to a full stop. He executed this flight successfully and without problem.

During the post first solo de-briefing the Student Pilot was informed of the limitations applicable to his solo operation of the aircraft and specifically that "touch and go's" were prohibited.

A second solo flight that followed a dual training flight was carried out later that day. During this flight the Student Pilot was observed executing "touch and go's". Post this flight the Student was debriefed by both the instructor that authorized his initial solo and the instructor who conducted the flight immediately prior. He was reminded of the limitations applicable to his solo authorization and told in no uncertain terms that "touch and go's" were prohibited.

On the day of the accident, the Student Pilot was executing his third solo flight following a successful dual training flight during which go-arounds were again practiced. The first landing was made to a full stop and a taxi back executed. During the second circuit ATC broadcast a report, two possibly three times, that winds were gusting to 14 knots. The student pilot executed a touch and go on his next landing and the tower questioned his actions, he apologized.

During the third approach to landing, the Student Pilot executed a go-around, during which the aircraft was observed to climbing poorly and appeared to be at a slow airspeed. During the go-around the aircraft started to traverse to the left heading directly towards the VOR and VHF antenna installation. Shortly before collision with the VOR and VHF antenna installation the aircraft was observed to abruptly pitch up whereupon it commenced to yaw and roll to the left. The aircraft then stalled, hit the ground suffering severe structural damage after which a fire started and destroyed the aircraft. The Student Pilot exited the aircraft unaided but after the fire had started.

Post accident examination of the accident site and aircraft confirmed that the engine was operating at a high or full power setting evidenced by the multiple propeller strike marks on the ground and the wing flaps were at 30 degrees (full-flap) at the time of impact.

2. The Pilot

Our understanding is that the pilot is continuing to make good progress in recovery from his post accident injuries having been listed as “critical and unstable” at the time of admission to hospital. All at OBA wish him a speedy and full recovery and our thoughts are with him.

3. NPPL Training
OBA does not conduct training for the NPPL and never have. Any issues with prior JAA flying training being acceptable for credit towards an NPPL are a matter for the FTO executing the training for the NPPL, the CAA and nothing to do with OBA.

4. Posts by Andy Nichols

We are very sorry that you did not complete your JAA PPL Completion training on the Piper PA28 (not Liberty XL2) with us post the flying you had completed in the UK.

You are aware that this resulted from you being unable to be authorised to execute your Qualifying Cross Country (Q X/C) flight due the metrological conditions being outside the safety limits that OBA very sensibly impose on student pilots.

You were only with us for 10 days as I recall to attempt to complete your JAA PPL.

Given the circumstances of this accident it appears that the OBA student pilot operational limitations are there for good reason, safety!
I am very glad we did not allow you to “push us” to authorise you to fly outside our student pilot limitations as it is self evident that there is good reason why we have them.

Given your behaviour since your return to the UK post your unsuccessful course completion (due to weather) I can only imagine what we would have been dealing with had we allowed to you fly when conditions were not within OBA limitations and you had had a similar situation to the one above.
You are also aware that you could not execute training for a JAA Night Qualification until all the requirements of the JAA PPL syllabus were completed, including the QXC flight. (See CAA LASORS for reference).

The friend who accompanied you for training for an IMC rating did successfully complete his course and has never to my knowledge ever posted on this or any other pilot forum.

As far as I am aware all matters between us are resolved so quite why you take every opportunity to post negative information on OBA and comment on the operations of the Liberty XL2 (an aircraft you have never flown) is a mystery.

5. Posts by JABI

I have no idea who “JABI” is (maybe he/she will publicly identify themselves here on this post, possible but unlikely!) but having researched his/her posts they almost exclusively focus on U.S. FTO’s, accidents and absolutely anything negative that can be found with U.S. flying training, I suspect without any first hand knowledge.

Clearly “JABI” is motivated by something other than “balanced, constructive and truthful” comment as evidenced by the “mathematical” comparison of C150 and Liberty XL2 accident statistics, where the "few" Liberty XL2's operating are virtually all used in a heavily utilized training environment and the large number of C150’s are used in a variety of different theaters of operation, from minimal private owner operation to flying schools. I also strongly suspect that more than half of the C150’s registered are not even in an operational condition and never fly.

Any aircraft that is operated exclusively in a training environment will have a far higher accident/incident rate that one which is not or, has a broad mix of operational environment. The Robinson R22 is a prime example of this situation as due to its use in a primary training role, its accident and incident rate was statistically extremely high, did it make it unsafe NO, it was the role in which it was used that caused the statistics.
PPRuNers can draw there own conclusions on “JABI” posts.

6. Aircraft Accidents

Anyone who engages in general aviation flying whether as a pilot or passenger must surely realise that this is classed as a “hazardous pursuit” as is Skiing, Parachuting, Mountain Climbing, Motor Car Racing/Rallying etc. and that engaging in these pursuits has inherent risk to be exposed to bodily injury or death.

Aviation accidents attract huge media speculation and publicity, it sells their publications/television and therefore their advertising.

Fortunately aircraft accidents are a rare occurrence unlike the literally thousands of fatal car accidents that occur each day and therefore attract little or no media “hype”.

Additionally there is always speculation in aircraft accidents generally that they occur due to technical issues or mechanical failure, in reality the vast majority are caused by human (Pilot) error.

You never hear this type of speculation in car accidents e.g. when someone “rear ends” another car - “The Department of Transport are investing possible brake failure as the cause of the accident and resultant fatality”, no it is just that the person who hit you was traveling too close and too fast to stop!

Neither do we ever hear that Hertz or Avis, the owner of the vehicle involved were asked for information on the accident and replied “no comment”!

7. The Liberty XL2

Some on this posting have commented as to the suitability of the Liberty XL2 in a training role, most of the negative comment comes from individuals who have no knowledge of the aircraft and have never flown it or in it. Draw your own conclusions here.

Does the XL2 have its own specific handling characteristics, YES! Does it handle like a C150/PA28/AA5 – NO, it is a different aircraft!

Do XL2/C150/PA28/AA5 aircraft types have there own idiosyncrasies, yes of course they do, but given training in the type this is no problem to any competent individual provided they operate the aircraft as trained and comply with its/their limitations.

Incidentally the Liberty XL2 achieved full certification in Europe with EASA earlier this year (another factual error in this posting correted).

8. OBA Operational Limitations

OBA has been training pilots in a primary role since 1991. Over the years we have experienced almost every issue imaginable, new ones do surface from time to time and we would naïve to believe otherwise.

We closely monitor all flying training and PIC flying and impose strict limits on pilot operation of our aircraft, often to our detriment both financially and from the negative PR generated as a result when individuals think they are capable of flying under conditions outside our operational limits which are:

OBA policy and standard operating procedure (SOP) for all solo operations no"touch and go's".

Additionally for Student pilots undergoing solo flight the following additional limitations are endorsed:

Max. Wind: 12 knots
Max Crosswind: 06 knots
Visibility:5 s.m.
Ceiling: 2,000 feet

We impose these limits for good reason, SAFETY.

In the Dirty Harry film Clint Eastwood said “It is a good man who knows his limitations” regrettably some pilots do not know their limitations are often over confident and reckless generally.

When a pilot is flying solo an instructor cannot be present to "hold your hand" and stop you getting into trouble by operating in conditions outside your abilities or "catch" your mistakes. This why OBA impose limitations on solo and PIC operations. Regrettably some pilots do not comply with these limits or “push” to be excluded from them.

The results of this kind of behaviour speak for themselves.

Regards,
Adrian Thompson
President OBA

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

:mad: :ugh: :mad:

I have feared for some time that this thread would wander dangerously off course and I issued a few posts in anticipation.

Unfortunately one or two people with agendas have caused unnecessary problems by posting untrue, unhelpful and unwanted messages. They have been removed and the instigator is now banned.

I hope that will be an end to it.

I strongly suspect that the A.N. who posted the obnoxious material is a former failed customer of OBA and all comments and allegations made by him should be disregarded.

I'm no mate of Adrian Thompson and no advocate of OBA or learning to fly in Florida but I WILL NOT tolerate libelous allegations and mischief making about FTO's on this forum. Any attempt will result in an immediate ban.

Adrian, I welcome your informative posting on this thread, thank you.

WWW
:mad:

[JasonH]

Hi,

Thankfully the pilot survived, that is the main thing.

I spoke to Orlando Beach Aviation in the week following the accident, from the perspective of someone researching which school to go with for my PPL. I asked if the accident would have implications for me looking to train later this year.

In short, there wouldn't be any implications. The pilot, was carrying out a touch and go, specifically against instruction. He had already been warned the previous day that he should not attempt a touch and go but chose to disregard this instruction, did it again and lost control.

Horrendous as the accident was, a solo flight is surely just that and no one outside of the plane can do anything if someone chooses to deviate from what they have been briefed to do.

That incident in itself did not put me off going with OFA, I especially was drawn to the fact that they have the new fleet of Liberty aircraft rather than some 25 year old machines that have been knocked around a bit.

I'm set now to start my course in about 3 months. The advice that I would love now, is having just received my study pack for the PPL, is where do I start with the modules? Beging with the one on law and then progress to...?

I'd be grateful for any help.

Regards,

Jason

[Contacttower]

The pilot, was carrying out a touch and go, specifically against instruction


This is not at all an attack on OBA (pletty of other US clubs have the no solo touch and go rule) but I do find it rather tiresome and unnecessary that the rule exists. Plenty of clubs in the UK allow solo touch and goes, on 700m grass strips as well, there is nothing dangerous about doing them if your take offs and landings are OK. All it means is that less of your hours are spent in the air and you waste hobs time taxiing around and waiting in take-off queues. If a student can't handle a touch and go then maybe they shouldn't be going solo.

[pipergirl]

I agree that a school should ban touch and goes especially when low houred PPL students are concerned. Their level of experience is too low to cope with all that is going on and this is when the danger creeps in.
I don't think it is necessarily a competence issue, as in how good their take-offs/landings are, but it is a human factors issue.
I do think a blanket ban is a good thing and then once the student is assessed and shows they can deal with touch and goes, then it should be lifted.
I know it's a pain in the @rse for the person concerned taxying around to take-off again, but at the end of the day, it is a safety issue and in my eyes, it is well justified.

[Contacttower]

Maybe your right, but I did touch and goes from my second solo onwards and never had a problem. I did find though it was a good idea to slow to a walking pace in the Super Cub while I dumped the flap, checked the carb heat was off before going again- with a crosswind the take off swing can be quite severe. But in a nose gear spam can I really don't see the issue with touch and goes.

[Token Bird]

What a strange rule? I've been instructing for a while now. I've also been involved with several flying schools in one capacity or another and I've never heard of such a rule. I can only see it being an issue on very short runways. Is it mainly an american rule of are there schools in the UK with this rule?

TB

[pipergirl]

You would surprised at how many people get a total mental overload when they start flying. Some people take to it like a duck to water and cope very very well and have no problems, like yourself CT.
I know of someone who was killed doing a touch and go and was a very low houred PPLer. The error that was made (whether it was pilot error or mechanical, I do not know) was that the flap was not retracted for take-off and in my opinion, if a touch and go was not performed in this instance, the tragedy could have been avoided.
So, when it comes to PPL students (early on in the PPL), I say they are a no-no, but once they demonstrate they can do a touch and go without any major hassles, then lift the ban on them...but that is only my own opinion.

[smith]

I am amazed that this pilot ignored distinct instructions not to t+g on various occasions and had been censured during a debrief.

The student pilot executed a touch and go on his next landing and the tower questioned his actions, he apologized.


It would be interesting to know what was on the ATC tapes ie if the pilot had requested clearance to land or clearance for touch and go, or clearance for the option (an american expresiion which icludes landing, t+g or go around). The contollers are familliar with the t+g policy at OBA and know that solo students are require to land and taxi back.

AFAIK the reason for the no t+g policy at OBA is due to a solo student failing to raise the flaps on a t+g until airborne, the resulting sink caused the plane to end up in the trees at the end of the runway. Don't know how true this is but that is the story that was going around when I was there about 5 years ago.

[Contacttower]

clearance for the option


I have flown at Ormond (not with OBA) and cleared for the option is not usually used, its either 'cleared to land' or 'clear touch and go'. The pilot in question probably just read back 'clear to land' but went and did a touch and go anyway.

As far as trees at the end of the runway are concerned, yes they are there and they could pose a problem if you got sink after retracting the flaps. I think the accident in which a plane crashed on the golf course a few years ago was caused by this and actually I think this was with an instructor as well...the runways are 17/35 3700ft and 8/26 4000ft.

[smith]

If the pilot went ahead and executed a touch and go on a landing clearance this could have many ramifications such as separation. ie a plane ahead in the circuit may be slower than the aircraft doing the touch and go. Would it be an offence to totally disregard a landing clearance and execute a t+g?

[Warrior2]

Hi,

As an Ex-Student of OBA i must say that i received the very best of training available. When i was sent on my first solo the instructor filled out my Endorsment which said in huge capital bold letters "NO SOLO TOUCH AND GO`s" and i was made very aware by the instructor of this limitation.
I can however understand this limitation, i would not feel comfortable doing a touch and go solo as in my dual touch and go`s the flaps were operated by the Instructor and took a couple of seconds to retract.
In my opinion the Liberty XL2 was a very good training aircraft as mentioned above the liberty does not take as much "Landing Abuse" as the usual pa28 C150 and making less room for errors and better pilots.....

Just my opinion,

W2

[Hour Builder]

The phrase, "request the option" is used by Instructors and/or examiners on downwind at OBA-at least when I've been there. Reason for this, is that they were going to train/test you on a particular maneouver, normally an engine out glide approach. It was the their way of getting a clearance from ATC with an option for touch and go, full stop, or go around without making it too obvious to the student. If the student was paying attention is was their way of knowing what to expect in the next few seconds.. :-)

I wouldn't use this phrase when solo, there wasn't a point, as it was always a full stop landing, be it when I was training for a licence, or hour building.

HB

[flydog1]

Folks, with all due respect to Adrian and OBA let me give you some raw data to absorb. Registered Liberty XL2 aircraft - 90, accidents since 1.1.2004 (when the aircraft was given its certification) - 5 (the one's we're reviewing isn't on NTSB db just yet). Registered 152s - 3807, accidents since 1.1.2004 (in order to compare to XL2 - pure statistics) - 101. Registered Diamonds DA20 - 397, accidents since 1.1.2004 - 2. Registered 172s - 26662, accidents since 1.1.2004 - 596.This puts XL2 at 5.56% accident rate (of all operational aircraft), 152 at 2.65%, 172 at 2.05%, da20 at 0.504%. All of XL2 accidents have occured at the landing phase and 4 out of 5 involved "improper recovery from bounced landing" according to NTSB.
OBA is a good school, all the CFIs are Riddle alumni, maintenance is fine..
I'd say xl2 is no match for something like da20 for example..:oh:

All right, not bad, not bad...(OBA anthem:)

[Contacttower]

All right, not bad, not bad...(OBA anthem


The anthem of many FTOs :)

[smith]

Flydog

Yes your statistics are I assume very accurate however they do not tell the real story, I bet there are some registered C152 spamcans sitting in the corner of an airfield unused whereas the XL2 being a new aircraft will and does have a high hourly usage rate (definately at OBA as it is a very busy school). We are comparing apples with pears here, to get a true comparison, we need the total hours flown per a/c type vs no of incidents/accidents, not the total number of planes vs incidents/accidents.

[coodem]

That will only make the accident rate % higher

[peter gava]

I trained there in june when they were fully uterlising the liberty's. within a week i think 4 had to be sent back to the manufacturer, 3 had to be put into storage untill an engineer from liberty could come and look at them. whilst a friend of mine was on one of his first solo flights the electronics for the flaps failed and this was during a landing. numerous other problems occured such as small holes appearing at the leading edge of the wing where it joins to the fuselage after 1 to 2 weeks of use. overall this aircraft is very poor for training in an accident was waiting to happen since they first bought them.

[pcgavaghan]

Can I please point out that the above post was not written by me. I trained in the XL2 in June and would not have given this account of my experience with them. Could the author please remove this post. Please note this has been reported to pprune.

[smith]

coodem

No it wont, it will reduce it

[Kengineer-130]

I saw with my own eyes the problems OBA had with poor students, the trouble is some people cannot be told they are doing somthing wrong/ take criticism, or in some cases listen to anyone :ugh:.... They then go out of thier way to cause trouble and bring OBA's reputation into disrepute.

I was very worried when I discovered lots of anti-OBA posts just after I had booked with them, but as always I decided to make my own mind up. I am glad I did, I recieved superb training in the air and in the groundschool (hi Echo Mike if you are still around :ok:), and had a fantastic time as well, met lots of top people. Some people think it is a holiday and they can just "bimble" through the course. Sorry, it takes effort and dedication, if you put the work in OBA go out of thier way to help you.

And I spend a good few days sat cursing the winds, as I could not go up solo, but OBA do not control the weather, it was just the way it was. I booked 6 weeks out there to make sure I had enough time to do everything I wanted to, and I came away with my JAA PPL, night rating and 27 Hrs extra flying time, and lots of very good friends, and lots of happy memories.

So, don't listen to the horror stoires, it is a known fact that more people shout about a bad experience than a good one, just go fly!! ( Kens favourite phrase :ok:)

[tittybar]

I would echo the last input. I trained for a PPL at OBA 2 years ago now. I had no problems with the set up or staff. Sure, back then the planes were old, but they were well maintained and safe to fly. The CFI'S were on the ball and generally very good. Adrian Thompson was polite and seemed very good at what he did.The PPL sylabus was followed correctly and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there.

[captain_rossco]

As Above, AT is a fountain of knowlege and full of decent banter. The Instructors are very good and above all, its great fun to be there!

I'll be living la vida OBA again in feb and wouldn't change owt about it!

Regards

CR

[russsherwood]

Hi all

I was reading this thread and feel like I must say a few words adding a breeze of objectivity to the mist of previous posts. I am an old "veteran" student of OBA, done PPL there, had a great time, came back for hour-building (had an amazing time), then came back for IR, FAA CPL, JAA CPL, FAA/JAA Multi, then ME/IR, CFI. CFII. MEI - the whole lot. I am instructing now in Beijing PanAm (China), building my PIC time on DA40/42's and being paid one of the highest CFI salaries in the World. :E

I must say that OBA is a very flexible school when it comes to flight packages. they can Taylor anything according to what you actually need. I started with JAA ATPL package which I then transferred to FAA CFI. I just spontaneously came up with the request and they re-scheduled my training in one day. I was quite impressed. Also, when I finished my training having a 5-figure sum in credit, they refund me the whole thing within 7 days of my request!

I know some stories about Phoenix East and NAC who would use any legal trick in the book to keep your cash. I personally had a very bad experience with Naples Air Center and will never do any training with them again (perhaps it's not the most objective statement, but it's the fact).

The only thing that OBA is inflexible with is the safety standards. When I was doing my PPL there, I almost have not finished because of some bad weather at the time (it was September). Despite my frustration, it was obvious that the chief CFIs (Ken) had only the best in mind by restricting my VFR X/C in almost IFR conditions. I appreciate this now and would never let any of my students to do the same in China. I'm sure any other FTO would not allow this either.

The touch and go situation is not quite understandable by me personally, since even in a strict 141 school like Beijing PanAm, T&G's and fully authorized for solo students. On the other hand, in our school students solo on their 30th or 40th hour rather then 13-15th like in OBA. Early solo gives students a lot of confidence but the ability is not there, hence it's a lot more dangerous to allow. It should not be surprising that in such robust training environment like OBA and Ormond Beach Municipal airport in general, accidents and incident happen. I think the only person to be blamed for this is the student himself (considering earlier report post by OBA)

Finally it must be said, that since I finished my training in OBA February 07, I could see how far has this school gone: from small place in a dilapidated flight center operating a bunch of beaten-up 1970's C150's to a first-class refurbished facility with brand-new aircrafts, fantastic CFI's (most are Embry-Riddle graduates) and some solid customer service. Thumbs up to Adrian on this one ! :D

I got a friend who is considering JAA PPL in the nearest future and at the moment I can't recommend him an FTO better then OBA.

Tailwinds! :ok:

RS

[russsherwood]

Flydog, as I told you on the phone :E this statistics does not mean much. LX2 is a brand-new aicraft. If you look at the same C-150 crash statistics from 70s, when the a/c appeared first, it had a very high rate of accidents as well. As my examiner (Capt. Raskey, I'm sure some of you have heard) once said, "There are no bad airplanes, just bad pilots" (I know that i will probably crash tomorrow for saying something like this here with my low hours), but I certainly believe it. If the aircraft was tested and certified by several international authorities, it would be safe to assume that the problem is not with the airplane. Sure, it would take time to master it, perhaps years to learn all the tricks, do's and don't but many new training airplanes have been through this stage. I'm not saying that XL2 does not have a character, but so do any other planes (speaking of which, I scared myself ****less yesterday by doing a cross-control Power ON stall in a DA40 with my student: at the end of the stall, the a/c just rolled in a direction of the rudder and got stuck in a 90 degree bank :mad: No matter how much we were pushing the opposite rudder, the bastard would not budge! Had to continue the roll and recover nose down. Told the othe guys about it - they never tried this before and were thankful for the warning).
At the end of the day, the question you have to ask yourself is, "Do you really want to do your PPL in something pre-historic or would you like to fly on a bleeding edge of technology which is also affortable?:cool:

RS

[coodem]

smith, I meant it will increase all the cessnas and warriors % Rate, hence decreasing the xl2 % rate

[Baldeagle30]

Hi WWW,

I am new to PPRuNe and have had a little look through some threads regarding OBA (I'm considering studying there). I stumbled across your post on the 'OBA crash' thread and wonder if there is a specific reason that you do not sympathise with the school or owner in this instance?

I'm not asking for you to justify your comments, rather, share any info that could make my decision easier in finding an appropriate school to study at. I have limited resource and will be self funding. I'm aware that there are a lot of sharks in the water, so to speak.

I am not keen on flying for an airline, more a small bush flying career - your direction in this would be much appreciated.

Also, I apologise in advance if I have instigated this in the wrong way.

Kind regards

Be30

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It would be better for me not to comment on a particular school.

My advice has been and remains thus:

Find a FTO that is preferably withing 50 miles of home that can do PPL CPL and IR.

In many cases they will have been trading for 10 years and have instructors who are career.

Rock up and announce your intention of going the whole way there and then.

Specify you want a single or as close as possible single instructor from day one PPL to IR 1170A.

This will be more expensive than going to Florida and then hour building or converting or doing blah blah blah.

It is however the cheapest least stress way of getting the most training bang for your buck.

Cheers

WWW

[mlee]

Bald Eagle,

I've been out here for a couple of weeks now at OBA doing my MEP CPL and have been really impressed with them.

I can highly recommend them, please post me if you have any questions.

Regards Mark.

[Baldeagle30]

Chaps,

Thanks for this! WWW I appreciate your position and thank you for yoor advice - it makes sense that a consistent teaching approach from end to end of the training would be beneficial - food for thought!

Mark, where I think that www has a valid point, I am still interested in hearing about this FTO, the facilites themselves and the accommodation etc. It would be good to catch up with you on completion of your training to discuss. PM me if you can and I will respond accordingly. Good luck until then and thank you once again.

Be30:)

[talktomegoose]

I did a JAA PPL, Night & Hour Build in the XL2 with OBA in June/July this year. My personal experience was one of a professional and friendly school with high standards. My advice to any career pilot is that what you get out of a flying school depends on what you are willing to put in. Yes learning to land the XL2 with grace does take perciverance and many hours of practice with an instructor. I remember being so frustrated that my instructor wouldn't release me to solo but thank heavens for his determination as eventually I became proficient at making consistantly safe landings and he let me go.
Wannabe pilots come in all shapes and sizes, some are hard working, safe and professional people and others are just dangerous.
With regards to the accident it appears the cause was loss off control whilst performing a prohibited manouvre with high winds being a contributary factor. I hope the student continues to recover and will not be put off flying. Perhaps he has learned the hardest way that there are reasons why aviation has rules. I disagree that touch and goes are suitible for student pilots. The t & g requires a high work load - power control, flaps, and of course 'flying' the plane - which can overload even the most experienced of pilots. I think the recent events in Phuket illustrate this well as early investigations suggest the pilot attempted a go-around in high winds (ring any bells?) and clearly failed.
My experience of OBA was excellent and I will be returning there next year to continue my flight training.

[Silent Witness]

Is the OBA strict weather minima really a safety issue? From reports it would seem that most of the accidents at the school are pilot related, when the strict wind restrictions were not applicable.

All the OBA advertisements proclaim “Come fly with us in the clear Florida skies”. The sky is clear, but sadly the wind is ever present. This is something not considered by potential students looking at flight training establishments. They look at one thing, COST.

‘We impose these limits for good reason, SAFETY. It would appear another reason for these restrictive limits is MONEY.

You see the logic is simple, bad weather, no flying. And because you didn’t accrue the hours guess what, your FREE night rating slips away. Then you have to cancel, then more of your money is held as a 'cancellation fee'.

So the weather or more likely the wind has restricted your flight to such an extent that you can’t finish your training. You then get landed with a ‘cancellation fee’. But you didn’t cancel, you just didn’t finish your training due to the fact that it was windy. And then guess what. Rather than being handed your refund, minus the cancellation fee, you have to wait for it to be posted to the UK. Why? Because you are often charged for things you simply shouldn’t be charged for. For example, airport transfer fees. A Student had his own transport, yet OBA charged him for airport transfers? As you only notice this when you return to the UK, it’s difficult to argue the point.

You see you pay for your ‘package’ with ‘no hidden extras’. It seems however all students are sold ADDITIONAL insurance upon commencing training. All off them HAD insurance, from a source recommended by guess who, OBA!

I have been spoken to several students who, already qualified, had gone to OBA for IMC CPL etc. On arrival no paperwork had arrived from the CAA. Result, no solo flying. Regardless of who was a fault, could OBA not contact these students so they could sort out the problems before committing themselves to flight training at OBA?

By all accounts instructors at OBA are to be praised. But some disgusting practices are sometimes observed by the OBA management. The worst reported was during an RT exam. A student was told to forget about the Mayday relay section of the test because the rubber dingy only had ‘Pakis in it’.

Maybe the Welsh Weasel will have the backbone to leave this item posted.

SW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bit rash challenging my backbone isn't it Mr Witness?

Regardless, your post stands. It suggests to most readers of it that you were a slightly underprepared disorganised student who has little experience upon which to judge a basic flying school.

Doubtless your experience will be useful for some. I've never recommended OBA or indeed basic training in Florida but many do it every year and are happy with it and the cost savings it does bring.

Cheers

WWW

[Shamrogue]

I recently read a report of a BMi operaton from Dub to LHR where a problem occurred on the ground. 3 passengers commented and gave 3 completely different answers to the issue.
Now, there is a point where people have to stand up for themselves and make judgements. If you can't make the judgement or you are not happy - you ask someone. Or advise of a doubt etc. We all do jobs and every so often you must converse with your boss/partner or whatever. Flying instructors are like condoms. They are there for your safety (and to teach), but they are not all perfect all of the time. To error is human and we as people must understand that and sometimes you have to query it. I know we have to trusts the chap in the seat beside us but you can open your mouth and ask.
I have no doubt that the instructor turned about and sent a student solo without being happy. From my own training point in OBA, I was flippin worn out doing stalls etc but I really felt I left the place more pro-effecient than when I arrived. No extra costs etc. Again, I'll refer back to a comment from the past. ON my flight test day, I got in because another chap didn't bother turning up for his - due to the fact he went on the lash the night before. And yet this chap complained that OBA wouldn't let him or wasn't able to let him have his flight test in time. Therefore incurring extra charges etc. but if I had just heard his side of the story I would have been mad with OBA. But then I saw his name on the list, found out where he was and then I took his place, did my test and happy days.
Sorry to rant and rave on this. But, when training you need a bit of bad weather **** it the skies aren't always clear. You need to know what bumps feel like. What do you want AT to do "come fly the semi cloudy, might be rainy, could be a CB skies of Florida".................We all know the "come fly the friendly skies"...........advert and things don't always turn out to be as they should be.
OK. Stopping here. Rant over..............for now.
Shamrogue

[Kengineer-130]

‘We impose these limits for good reason, SAFETY. It would appear another reason for these restrictive limits is MONEY.

:ok:Nice post, well thought out :hmm:... Have you ever been to OBA? Have you ever spoken to any of the OBA staff? I saw a few people leave after not getting chance to finish their PPL, some due to weather, some due to poor planning time wise etc, on ALL occasions, the deal is that they keep your money on credit for a year giving you chance to come back and finish the job, or you pay for the training you have recived and get the rest back, minus a small fee that ANY company (think insurance etc) will charge to cover thier admin costs.....

And I can vouch for the OBA imposed "wind limits" being there for a damn good reason, would you let a 20 hour TT recently solo student fly in a 25kts wind??? :ugh: there are some very very silly ideas people come up with....

[smith]

You see the logic is simple, bad weather, no flying. And because you didn’t accrue the hours guess what, your FREE night rating slips away

The way it works with the CAA and OBA is that the 5 hours required for the night rating can and is inlcluded in the 45 hours for PPL issue. OBA use this fact to push more students through in less time as the plane can be utilised at night as well as during the day. It doesn't cost OBA any more time or money to do the Night rating however it leads to a more efficient utilisation of their machines.

As it works out if you fail to make the hours due to wx its highly likely you will have already fulfilled the Night requirements. The upshot is if you don't gain the NR it is not because it slips away, its because the wx has actually been really rubbish or you don't cut the mustard. The Night R at OBA is not a free add add on it is a method to keep their a/c in the air longer, push more students through in shorter time and thus being efficiently run.

[Beefy_EMA]

I think the recent events in Phuket illustrate this well as early investigations suggest the pilot attempted a go-around in high winds (ring any bells?) and clearly failed.I was taught, every landing is a potential 'go around', you should never force a landing, with one only exception, when you don't have a working engine.

I am not sure why a 'touch and go' would cause more problems than a normal take off. When your rolling, get rid of the flap, set the trim and turn carb heat off. The take off is exactly the same, except you have the added advantage of already being in motion.

Maybe I had it too good, learning on a 3000m runway.

[Contacttower]

Maybe I had it too good learning, on a 3000m runway.

Hundreds of FTOs in Britain and many other countries teach students on 800m of grass and allow solo touch and goes almost from day one...if they couldn't manage a touch and go without help then they wouldn't be considered ready to go solo.

[Beefy_EMA]

Hundreds of FTOs in Britain and many other countries teach students on 800m of grass and allow solo touch and goes almost from day one...if they couldn't manage a touch and go without help then they wouldn't be considered ready to go solo.

Maybe you missed my sarcasm for talktomegoose.

And yes, as long as you don't come in high, touch and go on 800m of grass is the norm, albeit a little bumpy. Eg 22 at EGNA, great circuits.

[grob.1]

Any news on the student?

[talktomegoose]

Fair comment Beefy EMA.
You are 100% right that every landing should be treated as a potential go-around. I used the phuket incident as an example of where an uncontrolled approach in bad weather does not always leave you with the OPTION of a go-around.
I also agree that under certain circumstances touch and goes are suitible for students. However there may be specific reasons why students don't do touch and goes at OBA.
The flap control on an XL2 is not the 'set and forget' type that you would find in warriors/152s etc in UK flying schools. You actually have to hold your finger on the button whilst the flaps move to the required position, meaning you are flying one-handed over the runway (no hand left to push the power up). This design problem has been expressed by many XL2 pilots.

[Ste88]

hello guys....


I'm looking for an JAA approved school in USA so I have found this school which offers a JAA atpl frozen at 37960€ with accomodation in Florida included...but I'm reading this thread and....I'm very worried....

Could I have some advice?

I have found also Orlando flight training....

what is the best to take a JAA ATPL FROZEN COURSE?!?!

[Warrior2]

OBA is a great place to fly, please dont let this thread put you off. It can happen anywhere to any flightschool, Flying is a risk, your increased skill and training can reduce that risk.
Regards the ATPL prep, it really is a good price for what you get. I did the PPL there. As im sure you will here from other guys on this forum who are about to start up another "OBA" thread their different opinions, please do not listen to them

Best Regards,

W2

[wnjmurphy]

With regards to the flap switch talktomegoose, whilst it isn't similar to the Cessnas and Pipers of this world, but I am baffled as to why your fiddling with the flap switch over the runway.

On final approach, is it not better to get your flaps set before your anywhere near the runway threshold.

Similarly, on a go-around (where a number of incidents appear to be occuring on the XL-2), is it not full power -> establish safe speed -> bring the flaps in.

Your post suggests that you have to keep your finger on the lever, otherwise the flaps would spring back to a stowed position! :} This is not the case.

[Hudson_Hawk]

Definitely a nice place. Been there, done it. A wide range of airplanes, from new FADEC/G450 Libs (however, do bring your fireproof jumpsuits:E) to PA28s for conservatives and C150/152 for adrenaline junkies. You can get a broad flying experience trying different birds during your hour-building. Also all or most instructors are Riddle graduates with BSc in aeronautics, etc. An ocean of knowledge - use it while you can. No stupid uniforms to sweat in during the hot months and no part 141 bull-:mad:! Recommended with :ok::ok:

[wobble2plank]

Just my couple of thoughts,

Firstly, my best wishes to the student involved, you are not the first and, sadly, will not be the last to have solo accidents.

WWW, whilst I find your advice to find local schools commendable I feel that with our present governments persistant attack on GA, with fuel tax increases, release of aviation sites to the brown site register and restrictive airspace, many people will have to opt for the USA in the future. The cost per hour added to the trans atlantic flight cost and accomodation still stack up far cheaper than in the UK. Also the Florida weather can be far from beneign.

I changed job a few years ago and as a result I felt I needed to get 'up to speed' with flying a fixed wing aircraft again after a 16 year stint flying helicopters. I went to OBA with a full UK CPL IR to fly for a couple of weeks. At this time I was working as a Flight Safety officer for a large airfield in the UK and a couple of flying clubs as well. The decision to got to Florida was purely financial.

I went to OBA to hire an aircraft, subsequently, during my first couple of hours I wanted to re-familiarise myself with circuit work. I conducted touch and go's which were immediately questioned by the tower. I was then called back into the FBO where I was asked about why I was doing touch and go approaches. Once I explained my position and experience and that I was not an 'authorised solo' I was allowed to continue. During my time I was flying, touch and go's, flapless, glide and side slip approaches. The initial questioning shows the amount of supervision and control the instructors have with a good working relationship with the tower.

The weather in Florida played a great factor with CB's and TCu rarely seen within the UK. This led to cancelled cross country trips for many of the students. There was always a weather window available it just meant some students having to be ready to fly at 6:00 AM. Some of the students were not prepared to do this.

There was also a case where one instructor did not believe his student was ready to solo. The student in question flew with antoher instructor who agreed he was unsuitable. This student was a young lad who seemed somewhat unaware of his limitations which had been picked up by the staff at the school. The student went on to protest that the school was trying to wring money out of him by not letting him solo. To me this was clearly not the case.

The aircraft I flew, a PA28 warrior, was well serviced, mechanically sound and any malfunctions were quickly rectified by a good engineering team. Whilst the interior 'decor' was somewhat delapidated it was perfectly fit for task.

Student cross country flights were also very carefully monitored for student aptitude and weather. These decisions again were often contested as decesions to slow the students progress and to wring more money out of them. I however often ended up diverting to small airfields to wait out the next 'band' of CB's marching across without being able to inform ATC due to extreme radio static. Such a scenario would be a nightmare for a solo student away from the circuit on their own.

To sum up, I was not a student at OBA but shared the accomodation with them and chatted in the evenings. From my personal perspective the training on offer was safe and well organised. The staff spotted the 'over enthusiastic' amongst the students and handled them well. You are not, unfortunately going to spot every single incident building.

The pilot in question in this incident had been warned about deviating from the regulations and paid a high price. I don't feel blame can be laid at the schools door unless the FAA investigation team reports differently. Could AT have said anything else other than 'no comment' I feel not as the FAA would have impounded all relevant logbooks, licences, maintainence documentation and operators certificate. Careless words etc.

I found OBA well run and inherently safe and would recommend it further.
W2P

[WindFarmer]

Hi

I have just found this thread. I was involved in a Liberty incident at St Augustine. Below is a copy (with names removed) of the report I sent to the FAA.

Please read and draw your own conclusions.

The experience hasn't put me off flying - indeed I thoroughly enjoy it.

Introduction

I am a student pilot at Ormond Beach Aviation in Florida who is learning to fly in a Liberty XL2 aircraft. On 1 January I flew a solo cross-country flight to St Augustine from Ormond Beach in aircraft NxxxXL. On landing the propeller was damaged and the nose-wheel snapped off due to a heavy landing. This report was first written on the date of the incident and has been subsequently updated.

Flying Training

I have been engaged in training for a JAA Private Pilots Licence since early 2005, being a member of XX in England where I undertook 4.5 hours training on a Cessna C172 SP aircraft. Progress in England was slow, mainly due to the demands of work, the distance of the flying club from my home and the vagaries of the British Weather.

In October 2007 I therefore decided to complete my PPL training by booking a complete JAA PPL training course in Florida. I booked my training course on a Cessna C150 aircraft. Whilst the OBA website encouraged training on Liberty aircraft (because they were newer I think) I made the conscious decision to request the Cessna because I had already been flying in a Cessna and because I intended to continue flying in a Cessna following award of my licence.

I arrived at the flying school on the morning of Saturday 1 December 2007 and completed all the necessary contractual paperwork with the flying school for a Cessna 150. I met my instructor X (I am not sure of his second name) who advised me that he would not fly in the Cessna C150 because he was uncomfortable flying it. He strongly suggested we fly the Liberty. Given this advice the paperwork was changed and I started flying the Liberty XL2. This I thoroughly enjoyed with my instructor X and my subsequent instructor X.

My training progressed with my being signed off for solo circuits and solo cross country flights which I thoroughly enjoyed. I have flown a total of approximately 35 hours at Ormond Beach Aviation.

Aircraft

The Aircraft involved in the incident was Liberty XL2 NxxxXL. My flight-plan was checked and my solo flight to St Augustine was approved.

During pre-flight checks and start up the following notice reading “New Prop. Installation Requires re-torque after 1st Flight Downtime approx. 15-30 min. Thanks Maintenance”. I believe this was the first flight of this aircraft following an earlier prop-strike incident.

This earlier incident involved a similar landing two weeks earlier with a fellow student pilot named X X who was also flying solo. I believe this landing involved a lot of ballooning and difficulty in controlling aircraft NxxxXL. There have been a number of other recent prop-strike incidents involving Liberty Aircraft.

Fuelling and pre-flight checks were completed with a dripping fuel valve and defective GPS unit being resolved by the maintenance department. The Take-Off trim lamp did not work, so trim was adjusted by confirming that the two other trim lamps did work and were both extinguished. The free and full control movement check was undertaken and did not give any cause for concern.

Alcohol

Given that the flight took place on 1 January it might be reasonable to think that I had consumed alcohol on the previous evening. In fact I was driving and consumed no alcohol. This could be confirmed by a fellow student X X who I was with on the evening of 31 January. The last I drank was 2 glasses of wine on the evening of 30 January.

The Flight

Due to fuelling activities and visits to maintenance the exact flight departure time was not recorded, although it was around 10:00. Departure was from runway 26 and uneventful, although I did have to work at maintaining a constant climb speed to about 400 feet. After departing Ormond I contacted Daytona Approach and headed north at an altitude of 4500 feet and a speed of approximately 90 knots. I may have had to make more adjustments than usual to establish straight and level flight.

Visibility was good and I headed slightly East of the planned track with the intention of flying a long final approach into St Augustine on Runway 31. I made my initial call to St Augustine Tower at approximately 11 nautical miles from the airport whilst over the coast. I started my descent shortly after this.

I lined up with runway 31 at approximately 4nm from the airport at an altitude of about 1100 feet and obtained a landing clearance. The landing clearance included advice of wind speed and direction (I think). I cannot recall what the advised wind was but it was not significantly different from what I expected. I was subsequently advised that the surface wind at St Augustine was 320/08. Nothing leads me to think that the wind was any different to this.

Final Approach

I slowed down to 80 knots and put the first stage of flaps in at around at 1.5nm from the threshold. This was followed by a reduction in airspeed to 70 knots and an increase in flaps to 30 degrees.

The approach was a little wobbly due to gusts and turbulence but no worse than conditions experienced at other times in my training. A steep approach of 70 knots was maintained until the final flare. All power had been taken out a few seconds before final flare.

In my opinion the approach may have been too steep but was otherwise OK.

Landing

I am not sure I can describe exactly what happened, so rather than trying to mis-explain events I shall try and describe what I am sure of.

I may have levelled out to high, or I may have climbed after levelling out at the correct height.

The final flare almost certainly occurred when the aircraft was too high.

The aircraft was at a very steep angle (ie nose high with the stick well back) before it finally dropped to the runway.

I do not recall braking and I do not recall the aircraft scraping along the runway.

I did not add any power or attempt to make a go-around.

This landing was significantly worse than my usual landings and I cannot explain why.


Post Landing

The propeller was damaged and stopped rotating as a result of the incident, rather than as a result of my switching the engine off.

The aircraft lay aligned with and on the runway centre-line.

The nose wheel snapped off just above the nosewheel, rather than at the joint with the aircraft.

The nose-wheel lay some distance behind the aircraft as did two propeller parts.

I made the aircraft as safe as I could by switching the Fadec, ignition, fuel switch and fuel pump off.

Cause

I understand this aircraft has been involved in two consecutive landing incidents by student solo pilots. This could be a co-incidence or it could be due to some defect with the aircraft. If there were a defect that contributed to both incidents it may well be associated with the pitch control. There was nothing to suggest an issue with the other controls as the aircraft came to rest exactly on the runway centre-line.

The statement from X X regarding his incident should be considered when assessing this incident given the possible relationship between the two.

In my opinion the primary cause of the incident was a poorly executed landing resulting from pilot error and possible aircraft defect.

Note that I am very aware of the adage that “a poor workman blames his tools”. There is no certainty that the pitch control was defective and it is perfectly possible that two consecutive incidents of this type occurred in the same aircraft.

Weakening of the nose gear during the previous flight (where a prop strike also occurred) might have been contributory to the nosewheel collapse.

Students do find Liberty aircraft difficult to land – they are considered less forgiving than other aircraft.

I suggest that the aircraft pitch controls be thoroughly tested before this aircraft flies again.

[Avyator]

I confused myself little bit with the dates here...when did this incident happen? January this year? Or last year?

[Nichibei Aviation]

Very courageous and brave of you to post it in the open, WindFarmer.
There's nothing nastier than the situation you are in, thank god you were safe you never know how a prop strike can work out.

Control issues are not easily tolerated by the FAA and may explain why they have been grounded.

[WindFarmer]

Hi

The incident (in post 104) occurred on 1 January 2008

Regards

Windfarmer

[HappyFran]

And I read on another thread that OBA Liberties are grounded and the school is saying nothing !!

Seems like a hell of a coincidence :confused::confused:

[mad_jock]

As much as I don't like the man.

They proberly can't say anything if the feds and lawyers are involved.

Say one thing now and it could cost you thousands in the future and thats even if you were correct.