Lets bend the VFR a little!

[SmokingHole]

Anyone had anything similar to this happen lately?

BEWARE! THEY ARE OUT THERE!

Yours truly departed to the east from Bunbury today at about 1pm - an hour or so after the low cloud and showers moved in. After entering the soup at about 1100' and getting a departure call off to centre, things were looking good.
Passing 4000', identified, was given "traffic 10'oclock, 5 miles, unverified 5500' southbound".
In solid IMC WTF?:eek:
After leveling out at 4500', " Traffic now 2 miles 10 o'clock 5500' unv." :mad: me dead!
Shortly, "Traffic now in your 6, 1mile"
Thank :mad: for that!
At 30 miles BUN at 9000' I finally popped into the blue.

I'm sure this isnt the first case of this but I have three questions for starters.
1. How accurate is radar when they say "unverified"?
2. Do VFR pilots really smash around in 8000' thick soup these days:confused:

3. Given this champ went from being 2miles 10o'clock, to 1mile at 6 quite quickly, is it likely he was aware of the situation and "ducked" around behind while maintaining radio silence?

[scrambler]

I could probably answer the first 2 questions

1. Most times fairly accurate, depending on the accuracy of the transponder in the aircraft. It just means that ATC havent verified the altitude on that particular flight. (Which is why we have to say our altitude passing on first contact in a radar environment). Lets face it how mny times do ATC tell us that the transponder is giving the wrong reading? Not often.

2. There will be a few clowns VFR in IMC, rare but possible.

As for 3, possible however chances are that they were on another frequency anyway.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

1. How accurate is radar when they say "unverified"?

Don't know, but I suspect 500' difference in levels and you are in danger, 1000' and your probably OK.

2. Do VFR pilots really smash around in 8000' thick soup these days

Yes! On numerous occassions I have heard VFR aircraft depart into weather that I know must put them in the poo.

3. Given this champ went from being 2miles 10o'clock, to 1mile at 6 quite quickly, is it likely he was aware of the situation and "ducked" around behind while maintaining radio silence?

Maybe!

Dr :cool:

[BrazDriver]

Seen many VFR aircraft pop up on TCAS when they should be on the ground!

[BrazDriver]

That is just as bad! Unprofessional too!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"I've even heard of IFR single pilot RPT guys in the soup talking on their mobile phones"

With respect guys - What rubbish!

I am not RPT, but I see no problem with talking on a mobile phone while "single pilot IFR in the soup".

My co-pilot "George" is very capable. I just have to sit there and monitor what he is doing. If he screws up I stop talking on the phone, just as I would stop talking to ATC.

I have my mobile phone set up through my headset. I can talk on it, monitor ATC and keep an eye on George all at the same time - its called multi-tasking! Something that pilots generally do very well!

One might argue that "in the soup" is the best time to have a chat on the phone - cause there is little danger in being distracted from "see and be seen".

What do you suggest I should be doing while "single pilot IFR in the soup"?

Dr

[the wizard of auz]

What do you suggest I should be doing while "single pilot IFR in the soup"?
I would think you should be looking for a way to get out of the soup. :E:eek::}

[kiwiblue]

IFR single pilot RPT? Is there such a thing?Soundsair and Air2There are 2 that spring to mind. I'm sure there are others.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Wiz - "I would think you should be looking for a way to get out of the soup."

Why?

Dr

[the wizard of auz]

coz the FTDK has only one noise up front. Law of averages and all that. :E

[Towering Q]

SmokingHole, was the following statement uttered on your flightdeck during the aforementioned incident?

"Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns.":eek::E:ok:

[Sexual Chocolate]

Is there a parachute school at Bunbury?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"coz the FTDK has only one noise up front. Law of averages and all that"

OK Wiz, that's a whole other debate.

Personally I would rather be a A100 in the soup, with the radius of action that gives me than at A010 below the overcast.

I have a GPS driven moving map with detailed terrain to help me find a place to park.

I have now flown >80,000 nm in the FTDK. What's the chance of the donk crapping itself in the next 500?

Dr

[BrazDriver]

No parachute school at bunbury. Sounds like a ppl holder going to pick up someone or flying home to the south west.

Dr, I would love to see what happens when that whizz bang GPS goes u/s. Seen it happen before! Bit hard when the MK1 Brain has been in neutral the last 30 mins on the telephone!

[PA39]

Not that long ago I shot an NDB approach to the "minimums" at PMQ when i heard a VFR aircrafts taxi call for LHI and then his departure call.......... climbing to 9500 !!

The cowboys will continue to do what they do.

[the wizard of auz]

I have a GPS driven moving map with detailed terrain to help me find a place to park.

I have now flown >80,000 nm in the FTDK. What's the chance of the donk crapping itself in the next 500?
Yup, thats a whole different debate. :}
has your GPS got some form of radar in it for identifying other errant soup flyers?.
80, 000 miles huh?............ law of averages dictate that your odds are slimming. :}
(don't need a line to go fishing around here, do ya?) :E

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"I would love to see what happens when that whizz bang GPS goes u/s"

Come on Baz, your just jerk'in my chain aren't you.

The Mad Dr is flying along at A090 in the soup and his whizbang GNS430 craps itself!

What's he going to do?

1) Look at the GPSMap296 on the yoke
2) Use the ADF and/or VOR
3) Pull the Garmin III Pilot GPS out of my flightbag and fire it up
4) Ask for radar vectors
5) Use the VOR on my Icom handheld VHF
6) Dead-reckon my way to VMC
7) Descent to VMC
8) Pull the power back to Max Range and hope to stumble into VMC before the donk stops

Even I could get to (4) or (5) before I would have to get the brain out of neutral.

Dr

[Fhead]

that’s all well and good for you FTDK with the expensive fancy equipment. But my first thought as would have been most pilots (who can't afford the latest in communication and tracking equipment) was the single IFR RPT pilot to answer his mobile would have had to, thumble around in his pocket for a while to get it out and then probably take off his headset to talk on the thing, cutting off his listen watch to traffic and ATC. That would be foolish and unprofessional

[Dick Smith]

This is all encouraged by our out of date rules. If you wish to go IFR in Australia, in effect you have to put in a full flight plan and do this 30 minutes in advance. Under the US NAS, even if you are in Class E there is a simple call for going IFR – it’s called a “pop up clearance.” The basic details are put in and a clearance is given – all within about 30 seconds.

In the UK it is “free in G” – you simply fly in Class G IFR. In Canada you fly “free in G” by making an announcement on 126.7 when in IMC.

Under NAS there is provision for “free in G.” When this is introduced there will be simple procedures so an aircraft can climb through or fly in cloud without having to put in a detailed flight plan to Airservices 30 minutes in advance and receive a charge for getting basically nothing.

So let’s see some support from GA for the continued introduction of the Government NAS policy.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Maybe it was one of these?

http://chuckiedreyfus.com/2007/08/11/omg-captured-video-of-ufo-in-haiti/

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Fhead - "that’s all well and good for you FTDK with the expensive fancy equipment"

Forget the "fancy equipment"! If you were contemplating using your mobile while in the air why would you not do what I used to do? Stick an earpiece in one ear under your headset earcup.

I still do not see how this in anyway compromises safety!

Dr :cool:

[SmokingHole]

Sounds like a ppl holder going to pick up someone or flying home to the south west.

Maybee.....not sure about you guys, but I was petrified of flying in the soup prior to getting an instrument rating.
Surely this person is more likely to have held, at some point, an instrument rating but couldn't be :mad: renewing it, keeping his a/c maintained for IFR, or just lodging an IFR plan.
Also, aren't transponders encoded individually so that the aircraft is identified?

[SM4 Pirate]

Also, aren't transponders encoded individually so that the aircraft is identified?Huh? I'm just a dumb bloke, so please explain?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"aren't transponders encoded individually so that the aircraft is identified"

Don't think so!

Dr :cool:

[scrambler]

Also, aren't transponders encoded individually so that the aircraft is identified?

Nope, the transponder receives a signal (from radar/TCAS etc), it then sends out a response with "CODE" & "Altitude" (if selected mode 'C').

The code is the one set on the unit, probably 1200 in this case. The altitude is set at STD QNH and not variable (IE not dependant on the altimeter).

When given a discreet code the ATC computer has this code assigned to your flight for the one plan only, this will then show on the radar screen with the aircraft callsign or flight nbr. If no discreet code is given (such as VFR-1200) the radar return will show the code 1200 only. When you "squawk" an emergency code an alarm sounds for the controller and the code is displayed along side your aircraft. I am not sure with the TAATS system what else happens here, maybe an ATC can enlighten us?.

And for those unsure, the Ident feature doesn't put your callsign onto the screen, it puts out a signal which the ATC equipment recognises as "IDENT" and notifies as such to the controller. (the old days it put a circle around the radar dot, I think it still does the same).

Back to the original topic, could the guy have been headed somewhere to the NE of Bunbury and not Bunbury itself?? Possibly an IFR rated Pilot in a VFR Machine?

[VH-XXX]

I'd say he was operating under my favourite flight category, "Private IFR" Soooo private, that nobody knew he was doing it!

Whilst it sounds dangerous, if he was on area then you were in little danger as the genuine IFR guy. Be thankful that he/she was operating at the VFR levels and not IFR. With some of the patchy crap we've had here lately in Vic he could have quite easily been operating in VFR whilst only 2 miles away someone else is under full IFR.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Dick

I must be missing something here cause I just don't see what you are on about.

I flew my Bonanza 150hrs for the 12 mths from July 2006 to June 2007.

95%+ of that was on an IFR plan and maybe 80% was in Class C, D and E airspace.

I reckon the Bo costs me $300/hr to operate - call it $45,000 for the 12 mths.

AirNav charges for the 12 mths were $688.

Landing fees were $701.

I always submit details whether VFR (rare) or IFR. Takes me maybe 10 min to get the weather, notams, knock up a plan and submit via the web, using NAIPS and Champagne Flight Planner. I do it before leaving home to drive to the aerodrome - and get immediate clearance on taxi or departure. I can also do it in the field using a tablet computer and mobile phone.

On the rare occassions that need to upgrade from VFR to IFR there is generally no delay in getting a clearance.

My AirNav charges are 1.5% of my total operating costs !!!

Why would I bother "popping up" (??) or "flying free in G" when I can get the level of service we used to get from Flightservice for 1.5 cents in my flying dollar.

I object to the landing fees ($13 a pop at YBTL) more than I do to the AirNav charges.

And don't get me started about some of the idiotic ADs propagated by Cretans Against Safe Aviation.

Dr :cool:

[SmokingHole]

yeah disregard my last....thought one of our company aircraft was pulled up for using a tranny swapped from another bus. I've given myself a long hard talking to. It'll never happen again:}

[scrambler]

Smokey, I don't think you were alone in the beliefs, the only dumb question is the one not asked!

[Squawk7700]

Well don't be too hard on yourself Smoking Hole. When I registered my new aircraft the rego documentation told me that if my aircraft was fitted with a Transponder of the SSO kind, to input the value 1110001010001110 or similar which was the binary code for my rego. However whilst I write that and search Google I find little or no reference to an SSO transponder, however one can only assume it's what you're referring to.

[Jabawocky]

hmmmmm Mode S springs to mind. So does ADSB, and with a MANDATED ADSB this cowboy would be identifiable, even if he switched to "private mode" because the encrypted mode S code would still be sent. Only decrypted by ASA in ADSB land.

So all you knockers of ADSB out there, shut the F:mad: up, this is a classic case of how the new will eventually replace the old and do it better.

J:ok:

PS Dont even think or arguing this one, its not worth it!

[squawk6969]

Dont't think thats your code.......âŽ

was it more like.........011110100:mad:10101111000:E:E

Just to protect the SQ7700:}

SQ6969:}

[Squawk7700]

I'm not afraid to post my rego 6969.. are you?

VH-L**

!!! :\ says 6969!

[squawk6969]

not really, but thats why your code was carefully edited so not to disclose anything.......knowing you I expect binary is something you can decode in your head:eek:

I can't do it in my head, but I do employ a guy who can......now thats a true geek!:cool:

SQ:ok:

[Wheeler]

Didn't we have a free in G experiment here a few years ago, using a national CTAF frequency of 127.7 or something? Seem to recall it went REALLY well and the RPT boys and girls were particularly impressed, especially near class G airfields!

Hey Dr, $300'hour??? You really should come back to Cessna.

[sprocket check]

So does ADSB, and with a MANDATED ADSB this cowboy would be identifiable, even if he switched to "private mode" because the encrypted mode S code would still be sent. Only decrypted by ASA in ADSB land.

We are going to get and it will be mandatory for all, probably even UL. And it IS just another big brother IMHO. And it will be hacked by teenagers with a Dick Smith radio and a laptop. And the teens will hook it up on their Flight Sim and fly Phantoms and Hornets around SSY controllers screens. Just for fun.

[Jabawocky]

Sprocket old mate, have you stripped a cog!!!!:}

I gather thats a wise crack at Dick!

J:ok:

[Wheeler]

How can we be so sure this 'cowboy' was actually in IMC? - just because you are in a cloud does not mean everyone else nearby has not found a few holes and flying VFR legally. I've been in the 'in and out' stuff, thinking its mostly in, many times to find all sorts of folk flying in the holes, even a very smart looking helicopter once.

[SmokingHole]

The system which crossed the south west corner on sunday was quite widespread with showers. Actually had a delay on the ground waiting to depart due to a heavy shower (moving east) reducing cloud base and visibility. We were flying through some heavy showers at the time of the incident with the wx radar full of green and yellow. Pretty sure there must be cloud above in order for there to be showers below (when I did met last anyway). It is highly unlikely this guy was maintaining 1000' vertically and 1500m horizontally from cloud with 5000m viz. I know. I was there.

Touch a nerve did I Wheeler?

[Wheeler]

'Touch a nerve did I Wheeler?'

Nah, not me Smokey, I stay in cloud as much as I can. Like the Dr, I seem to be one of the few who believe that filing an IFR plan is not actually a bad deal (for the time being!) As I say, I've had a few 'encounters'. One where I've been in a missed approach in clould and fairly heavy showers with no apparent holes between me and 10.000, only to hear a VFR parachute plane very nearby climbing up to unload his cargo, claiming to be in 'scattered'. Who was I to say that was unlikely?

'Free in g' can work. In the UK, not a country renowned for adventurous experiments with aviation rules, they just fly the rules applicable to whatever conditions they are in...

[QSK?]

Was flying IFR Moorabbin to King Island at 6000ft a couple of years back.

Solid IMC virtually on departure from MB with no breaks at all in the cloud cover either above or below me.

The next thing I hear as I'm approaching KII is ML Centre calling me up to give me traffic on an unidentified (obviously VFR) aircraft which was 10nm behind and closing on the same track as me and on descent from 9500ft!

I finally managed to contact this jerk on the CTAF frequency and effected separation from him, however what really p:mad:d me off in the end was that he had the audacity to call me back up, after I had queried his VMC status, to say that the "sun was shining below 2500 and why don't you come on down"! WTF!

I ended up having to do an NDB approach at KII and only just got visual slightly above the minima.

The thought often goes through my head as to what could have happened had I not been in a radar environment.

[SmokingHole]

Wheeler, you can't really put the skydiving wagons in the same class. I prefer to avoid thier operations altogether. They usually don't venture outside a 5mile rad of the dz before they unload their cargo of lawn darts. I'm sure most are aware of the practices associated .........:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

QSK - So how did the "jerk" get down?

Dr :cool:

[squawk6969]

Forkie me old mate,

Like most of us, he used a combination of gravity, and most likely some of the aerodynamic assistance of wings (prevents dropping like a stone) and some forward stick or reduction in power.

As for how he complied with the VFR rules while descending through the soup.....fair to say he did one of the aforementioned Private IFR's.

QSK, did you have the opportunity to have a friendly and frank discussion with the jerk concerned on the ground as to his stupid and unsafe practices?

I often wonder how the old DC3 boys and earlier got on, pre radar an all, flying in bad weather. I know many stopped flying the wrong way, and traffic density was not a problem, but I guess thats why we have IFR and radar and rules!

SQ

[QSK?]

FTDK:QSK - So how did the "jerk" get down?
That's the million dollar question; I don't know! Check your PMs.

SQ6969:QSK, did you have the opportunity to have a friendly and frank discussion with the jerk concerned on the ground as to his stupid and unsafe practices? Unfortunately, no as the pilot had already left the aerodrome by the time I had parked and secured the aircraft. Check your PMs.

[cloudhigh]

As a VFR pilot I think you definately cannot push flights when weather is a potential problem. Well no duh you say, its quite obvious eh but the problem is I dont think enough people take that saying to heart "better to be on the ground look up smiling than in the air looking at the ground crying" :=

[Piston_Broke]

At least these VFRs in IMC had their transponders on so they were spotted on radar and traffic given. Unlike a few CTA penetrators who, when hearing an ATC broadcast "Aircraft squawking code 1200 vicinity ...." or similar, promptly switch off their transponder.

With peanuts like these, another reason why class E airspace over C or D towers isn't a great idea. When it's IMC there won't be any VFRs flying? :rolleyes:

Yeah, right ........

[Bendo]

One of my (former) flock was telling me about his VFR into IMC experience - he was coming bck from YBMC past LAV - and he was completely socked in.

"I wasn't worried though", he told me, "I knew it was OK because when I flew through holes in the cloud I saw 2 Cessna Caravans in formation just off my wingtip. I knew if they could do it, so could I".

:hmm:

[NFK4X4]

I was sitting on my boat at Jibbon yesterday Friday 7th September. Jibbon is on the south part of Sydney Victor 1 when a formation of light jets, looked like CJ's, flew over at not much more than 300'. I know as I have flown Victor 1 many times and know the height you would cross Jibbon point. Funny there were 3 more instances where the wx was less than 5000 metres, low cloud and these guys just kept racing south and north. Not a typical role for a non military jet, especially the scud running.
Are there any answers out there that make sense, especially when I have my Baron sitting in the hangar rusting due to APEC restrictions?

[Bendo]

NSW Police have at least two citations operating out of BK - some guys have all the fun :ok::E

[GA Instructor 977]

heard a (non professional) CPL holding cirrus owner bragging about a flight of 3 hours in cloud in his new cirrus in NQld. I enquired as to when he had done his CIR, he said he hadn't and didn't need to as the autopilot did all the flying and if he got in trouble he could just pull the chute..... (Shudders all round from the IFR pilots that may have been sharing that OCTA cloud with the offending blissfully unaware "pilot") This guy happily does this regularly apparently and is quite happy to tell everyone about it.....apparently its perfectly safe:bored: as he has a strike finder to show him where the CB's are:sad:...... Anyone flying IFR in NQld.... start praying!!!