Rate of Climb requirements in Germany

[hotmetal]

I am just starting to get a little bit irritated by ATC requiring particular rates of climb approaching cruising type levels in Germany. I know it is for separation and I have no problem in the descent [although it does make a efforts and continuous descent approaches for noise/fuel/environmental reasons go out the window when I end up 100miles from Stuttgart at FL 100]. But in the climb it is difficult to know what rate of climb will be achieved. I can guess but it varies with wind changes, temperature changes and I don't have a table of climb rate varies aircraft weight at certain flight levels. On the airbus I can find it varying between 200'/min and 1500'/min as it reacts to changing winds or speed changes for whatever reason. I could select a vertical speed but then end up glued to the IAS to watch that is OK.

IMHO it would be better to just say eg 'climb FL350 with best rate through FL300' as they do in the UK if the conflicting traffic is at FL290 or whatever.

[DTY/LKS]

By giving you a minimum climb rate then the controller is building in a separation restriction. By just saying expedite thru FL300 then the ATCO has no idea what rate you are going to be doing.

At those sort of levels you can get planes "expediting" at between 500' per min to 3000'+ per min. The ATCO has no idea what rate you will be doing, and as you said due to the different variables neither do you.

I have asked planes if they can accept an expidite from say FL300 to FL360 so that they can get up to cruise level.
No problem is often then the reply followed by a climb rate of 400' per min.
Confirm you are expiditing, says I.
Oh, we are doing our best,a bit heavy today! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

So the ATCO gives you the restriction of X' per min or tells you to expedite, then it isn't for the fun of it. It is because there is conflicting traffic & he is trying to get you to cruise level ASAP. If you cannot comply with the restriction or are going to give a poor expedite of <1000' per min then tell the ATCO.

[Lon More]

it would be better to just say eg 'climb FL350 with best rate through FL300' as they do in the UK if the conflicting traffic is at FL290 or whatever.

Not a good practice and one I would have hammered any trainee for using. As pointed out by DTY/LKS you have no idea of what you will get. Far better (= safer) to specify a minimum rate.

[45 before POL]

I myself occasionally instruct climb rates (generally min 1000' a min)to build in separation as needed. If a pilot cannot achieve that then just tell me....plan z then is used. whole basis of it is to try and help by getting you to optimum levels without a level off, for what could be some time. :E

[PPRuNe Radar]

On the airbus I can find it varying between 200'/min and 1500'/min as it reacts to changing winds or speed changes for whatever reason.

The UK requirement is for a minimum of 500'/min, as published in the UK AIP. If you can't achieve that then you need to tell ATC straight away, to save embarressment (or worse).

Presumably Germany also has a published minimum rate which you need to comply with ?

If you're asked for a rate above 500'/min and you can't comply or it's too difficult to make the aircraft do it for the period of the climb, then again please just say so. The controller can then leave you where you are or come up with an alternative plan which will be safe. :ok:

[stump grinder]

I'm with you hotmetal.
It's very noble of you fellas to stick up for your German colleagues, however there is a noticeable bossiness about the way german atco's conduct their airspace.
Specific rates of climb and descent are commonplace, and as hotmetal says, often unachievable. When these unrealistic restrictions are handed down, as to a naughty schoolboy, it does tend to grate.
I think most pilots realise that 500fpm is a minimum. But if you're climbing up near your optimum level and you experience a sudden loss of headwind or increase in tailwind, the ROC WILL drop markedly. Not much to do about that I'm afraid.

[BOAC]

Not really something to get wound up about. The 500fpm is surely an average between the cleared levels as the 'gap' has been assessed and that is how much time the controller wants you to take. A drop to '200fpm' for 30 seconds would not matter as long as you crack something like 800fpm for the next 30 (apart, of course, from raising the controller's blood pressure:)). As said, if you cannot do it, speak up.

[ayrprox]

i ask a pilot if he can be FL??(1000ft above/below) within so many minutes giving myself about 20-30 miles space incase it all goes pear shaped and turns needed. works for me anyway

[oncenterline]

stumpgrinder, how often does it happen that you experience a sudden loss/increase of head-/tailwind during the last part of your climb? Me, almost never.
And which modern jet aircraft (except for heavy A340/B747) cannot maintain at least 500 fpm up to optimum altitude?
And I never heard any german ATCO complain if you tell her/him that you are unable to comply with the given rate.
I don't see a real problem here.

[stump grinder]

how often does it happen that you experience a sudden loss/increase of head-/tailwind during the last part of your climb? Me, almost never.
Well, more often than you'd think. Modern flight planning systems look for optimum levels using wind data as well as weight and temp. This can mean that you climb to either get above a strong headwind or to a level where there is a tailwind. In each of these scenarios a loss of energy occurs as you pass through. No big deal, but it can cause ROC to drop below the minimum required.
And I never heard any german ATCO complain if you tell her/him that you are unable to comply with the given rate.
Me neither, but that wasn't really the point!