Swiss salary

[guvner]

Read a lot about Swissair and Crossair recently but still unsure about the terms and conditions pre collapse and post. Anyone care to publish this or is it too sensitive? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Hobbit]

The pay is interesting because of course Swissair went bust and Crossair bought the detritus. Management now inform us that this was a merger (interesting from a legal standpoint) You're not interested in that though here is the answer to your question:
We have an A and a B scale pay list.
Ex Swissair captains and FOs maintain their old pay. If we are profitable in the first two years thay also get 15 million swiss francs bonus.
The Crossair captains get a pay rise that sees them paid the same as an ex Swissair FO after they have spent 12 years in the company (about 120,000 swiss francs).
The Ex Crossair FOs almost have to pay the company!!!! They get chicken feed.
There are other changes too: Swissair pilots keep their day off entitlement and Crossair pilots spend 5 years building up to it. So it goes on. If you are Swiss and 18 I would recommend you apply, if you are from anywhere else, steer clear.
NB Fair is a relative thing, especially in Switzerland!

[773829]

Not exactly the correct answer.
The ex-Swissair pilots getting about 35% less overall. If SWISS is making profit in 2003 ex-SR getting about 4% more in 2004 and if there is a profit in 2004 ex-SR pilots get about 8% more in 2005.
Seniority is years SR or years LX.
On top of this ex-SR pilots pay about 4% solidarity to keep about 50 young pilots more flying for SWISS.

[gofer]

Hobbit's right its a two class system.

- The saving class gets a little more
- The saved class give up anything up to 35%

The absolute unfairness of it all is that an ex SR 320 F/O flying say ZRH-GVA is rated as an A or (long hauler) while the ex LX MD80 Captain flying the same leg is rated as a B or (short haul).

The B Captain will get less than the A F/O - and who has the bigger craft, responsibility, whatever ?????

And that is where all the bitching is just starting.:mad:
Somebody correct me if I'm anywhere close to wrong.

Dear André got it absolutely wrong on this one - starting afresh he should have started all at 0 seniority and a clean new pay scale (somewhat above Crossair's if he can really afford it) and done his hireing on the basis of old LX and SR seniority.

:confused: :confused:

[christian_MD80]

Do I understand that correct?

You guys ex-LX were unable to fight for a decent salary all the years and whine now because exSR-FOs who lost about a third of their salary still get more than your Capts?

Yes a new company would have been better, even better two. Airline with ex-SR and Commuter with ex-LX personnel, not having all this troubles with the financially upgraded LX-pilots who would take even more from the ones who are in trouble because of the highly reduced salary.

chris :(

[christian_MD80]

Hi "studi",

You are right, when being involved in whatever way, have been trained by and flown with SR-pilots, I can`t be neutral on this subject. But on the other hand, seeing one group loses abt. one third and the other group gaining 15 %, I can`t see a reason for complaining

pilots.de is affirm

chris

[tej]

Chris, you should also consider the fact of gaining 65%. You were all out of work after the grounding.;)

[Air Bus Driver]

I really find this "you should be happy to have a job at all"-attitude of certain former (it's a new company now!!!) CRX employees (luckily not all of them are as narrow minded!) appauling!!! You guys should really consider, if your situational awareness is sufficient, for working as a pilot...

Let's get something straight here:
-The money which SR was flying with after the grounding didn't come from the oooh so great rescuer CRX, it came from the Swiss taxpayers who wanted an intercontinental airline, they didn't want CRX!!!!!
-CRX would NEVER have gotten as big as it is now, if it hadn't been for Bruggisser's/Swissair's Hunter Strategy!!!
-CRX would NEVER be able to survive in the form it is in now, just as a regional airline without having the former SR-Network for PAX to connect to!
-CRX almost would have gone out of business a couple years ago, if SR hadn't bought them up!

What's being done now, is using CRX's structure as basis for the new airline, because legally it's much easier to use CRX than SR, in order to avoid creditiors sucking out all the money again! It's not because CRX was such a great company, or anything like that...

[skypointer]

The absolute unfairness of it all is that an ex SR 320 F/O flying say ZRH-GVA is rated as an A or (long hauler) while the ex LX MD80 Captain flying the same leg is rated as a B or (short haul).
Instead of bitching, gofer, you should do a reality check! There are no more A320 F/O with SWISS, as all former SR F/O that did not have the A330 rating (and even some of those who did) were layed off!:mad:

So, if you get a higher salary flying the A320, it will be the first Crossair pilots that do a transition to the Airbus that profit of this higher salary. The already A320 qualified former SR F/Os that got layed off can, after a new application, start on the Saab as a B pilot, as you call it. If this was not absolutely outrageous, it woud be ridiculous!:mad:

So what we have is about 180 well trained and qualified Airbus F/Os that lost their jobs, while the former LX pilots, who prove their lack of situational awareness every day - by making statments as you, gofer, do - can keep flying and will eventually be upgraded to bigger aircraft types, that former SR selection once said most of them would better keep their hands off!:eek:

[Air Bus Driver]

Well said, skypointer :)

And not to forget that several (in my group 5 out of 8!!!) ex-SR F/O's, who were willing to start at the bottom of the seniority list on S34 and EMB, were rejected by CRX for ridiculous or no reasons at all!:mad: That leaves great perspectives for a pilot job in Switzerland...

[christian_MD80]

tej: Chris, you should also consider the fact of gaining 65%

Servus tej!

When I see it in that light, I see 65 % gain for ex-SR and 115% gain for Crossair, with a different 100%-value, which we can`t see. Thats not in favor of you, but you asked. Yes, CRX would have gone bankrupt too, regional without mother, sorry, we take your paxes but not the company, could have been a saying by the surrounding regionals in Austria, Germany, France and Italy!

What happened was a tragedy, but don`t be silly and ask for further deductions on the ex-SR salary, they have lost enough. BTW, why didn`t you ever get out of the steps of a low-salary company, organize yourself as it seems you still are not. I`m sure you wouldn`t consider merging the two bodies?!

chris

[Stingray]

For Swiss outsiders: If you came this far in this thread you probably realized there is a battle going on between the union of former Crossair (CCP, now SPA for Swiss Pilots Association) and former Swissair (Aeropers).
Players form each side are easy to identify, watch the games!!!

It is not only about salary, there is also seniority, more specifically job security, career opportunities and profit sharing to name a few.

For example if the high risk company Swiss had to be resized, the first couple of hundred pilots who had to be layed off would almost solely be former Crossair pilots, according to the currently proposed new collective work agreement.

Also obviously there is a discussion about whether Swissair really went bankrupt or not, or if it was just by mistake that the banks decided to buy Crossair out of 6 billion debt Sair group...

In Switzerland everybody but former Swissair pilots seems to agree on the fact that the two biggest banks bought Crossair out of Sair-Group before they went bankrupt, because it was a company which could function on its own and was with about 24% equity financially very sound.

Swissair on the other hand was so interlinked with Sair, that it couldn't function on its own any more.

Speculations about what would have happened, if the banks wouldn't have bought Crossair and if our world was different then it is are in my opinion quite boring.

[christian_MD80]

:( Another Crossair view :(

Sorry Stingray, even in Switzerland not everybody is on your side. Crossairs ability as stand alone company was very doubtful.

But you have many good points. As an outsider however I see two groups forced together. The one lost many things, among them some hundred collegues. For seniority reasons they have been kicked out before the "merger", or Crossair pilots had to be among them.

OK, you are right, two groups, two opinions. Thats no speculation.

chris

[+TS]

773829, I have problems believing that you are a (ex-SR ) Swiss pilot.

Stingray; good facts. But Crossair in it's previous form would not survive.

[Stingray]

I find it pointless to discuss the future Crossair would have had if it hadn't survived. There would be so much speculation involved, and everybody just puts in their own projections depending on 'political' orientation...

Furthermore I find still taking the 400 layed off Swissair pilots into account towards further layoffs makes no sense whatsoever.
Swissair doesn't exist any more, ex Swissair pilots now working for Crossair Ltd. should take as much risk for the company as Crossair pilots or there is no way how Swiss could ever function.
It wouldn't even do the laid off colleagues any good if one took their numbers into account, it would only give the remaining ex Swissair pilots more protection against layoffs at the expense of the original Crossair pilots.

[Air Bus Driver]

Stingray,

The mid-& longrange fleet (former SR) had it's seat load factor up to 75-85% again in no time, after the grounding. However in the regional segment (fmr Crossair) the loadfactor lies around 40%. Now, I wonder which fleet is more likely to face resizing...?!?:confused:

But I bet, in your opinion, even if 20 EMB orders are cancelled, only ex-SR pilots should be fired, so you can transfer directly into the left seat of the MD-11... right?

BTW, you don't seem to believe that Swiss is a new company, but rather that Crossair took over Swissair. Well, according to Swiss law (OR333), if a company takes over another, it has to stick to the working contracts of the overtaken company for a year! Which in this case would mean, that ex-SR pilots still would have their CWA, LX pilots still their crappy CWA!!! So stop bitching about a contract which brings you many improvements...

[CarbonBrake]

One should not forget what SWISS is currently running on: a big wallet with taxpayers money as well as significant financial support from big swiss industrial, financial and insurance companies.
And now there are two pilot corps, where some "hot-blooded" members of both, former Swissair and former Crossair are just on the way of screwing up any blink of potential economical success of SWISS with little wargames of more little boys with their toys.
SWISS is a NEW company, don't they get it ??!!
The shareholders and the board of directors hopefully give a **** (I deeply apologize for this rude expression...) on those whining "you went bankrupt, we didn't...or we fired already 400, now it's your turn"-arguments.
The black numbers on the bottom line at the end of the fiscal year, that's what counts, nothing else.

The pilots operate the planes, the management and board of directors run the company.
When SWISS would fail in its present size, the board and the management will economically "streamline" the company, regardless of who went bankrupt in earlier days or who already laid off 400 before SWISS took off.

I personally believe, that SWISS will be a success, i.e. makes money !

Cheers

cb

[+TS]

A remark to AirBus Driver's figures. I'm afraid your load factor figures are not correct.

Long Haul : Between 60 and 80 percent is correct, but ticket prices are very cheap due to big campaign. Yields are very low.
Meaning even if you fill an Md11 up to 95 percent and fly to Hong Kong and back you'll have a massive loss.

Short Haul : Correct load factors are between 52 and 58 percent.
On most routes there is a brake-even with about 25 percent load.
(Depending on route, day and aircraft)

So don't come with all these fact's from you're bottom of reality.

[skypointer]

On most routes there is a brake-even with about 25 percent load.
Do you really believe this? Well, it shows how little you know about this business. I fear not even a low cost carrier - which SWISS definitely is not - does make money with 25% load factor.

Though probably LX did, while SR financed the difference. Well, those day are gone...:(

On the SR long haul network every route generated cash since Jan 02. The ticket rates were some 10% lower then in 2001, but the leasing about 50% and the staff salaries some 10-35% lower. Of course fuel was cheaper too and all the bad paying routes were given up after the SR grounding.

So I don't know where you have your figures from +TS. Probably made them up by yourself - and badly that is...

Your short haul laod factors are about right. You of course forgot to write that the Airbus fleet had around 60% and the former LX fleet about 35%.:o

I don't know the current figures, but the late SR proved that you can operate the 26 longhaul planes of SWISS with a profit.:)

However I would not be surprised if SWISS couldn't reproduce these figures, as the whole management doesn't seem to understand much about long haul operations and network mangement as they had never to do anything like this with LX.:(
Let's hope they prove me wrong here...

[+TS]

Quote be Skypointer :

Do you really believe this? Well, it shows how little you know about this business. I fear not even a low cost carrier - which SWISS definitely is not - does make money with 25% load factor.

1. Low Cost carriers can only make money if they fill their 73's up to the max. and fly a lot. I don't know their brake even but it is high.

2. Swiss (ex LX), have relative high ticket prices on low densitiy routes (mostly) therefore a lower brake even at sometimes as low as 20 %.

Quote :

On the SR long haul network every route generated cash since Jan 02.

Of course it generated cash but was their a profit ?

And again I feel this totally misplaced feeling of superiority in your words.

How hard is it to just work together ??

[tej]

You guys should really consider, if your situational awareness is sufficient, for working as a pilot...

Dear airbus driver,
yes it is. You should also consider to step down a bit. Should you ever fall, it will hurt.:p

Your historical statement is quite impressive, but it is only your personal way of looking at things. It lacks any connection to reality.::rolleyes:

JP

[tej]

Carbon Brake

well said. I can only agree on that one

tej

[ironbutt57]

You guys are high....in the real world you would be non-existant....:( :( :rolleyes: :eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused:

[Air Bus Driver]

Dear tej,

Well, actually I already did fall, because I belong to the group of the 400 furloughed SR-Pilots, who has been looking for a new job for the past 6 months...:(

And instead of having you criticize my statement in general, I'd rather hear you comment on the points I made, and tell me which ones are so far fetched and totally lack reality!!! Because with your general attitude of denial and criticizing everything, without providing any facts, you are just not going to convince anybody of anything...

[Stingray]

Well Air Bus Driver,
I certainly hope you will get a job in a cockpit soon again, or has Crossair Ltd. alrady hired you again? Have you been working for Crossair before you joined Swissair?

To your other remarks: Please don't speculate about my opinions (I bet in your opinion...).
Applicability of OR333: The Swiss federal justice departement studied the subject last fall and came to the conclusion that in the present case OR333 was probably not applicable. Of course there is never a final decision until a court has ruled about it.
I guess you know on the other hand that Crossair Ltd. broke the contract CCP has with them by signing a contract with Aeropers, but that is subject to a court ruling as well.

Maybe we both agree on the fact that our situation is a total mess, and that SWISS never should have happened.

[efcop]

to all you non-swiss employees out there:
don't let these rantings fool you. in reality we are alle one happy family;)

[blue belly]

efcop: what a load of s..t!!
Every integration is a mess....
The Crossair pilots are trying desperately to get as much as they can (it will be the last time they get such massive salary increases) and the poor Swissair pilots are struggling to hold onto what they have (had)... Aeropers has let them down (again) and the bottom 180 guys have really had the pole shoved right up their a..es...
There are no winners here

[+TS]

Don't forget that a FA within Crossair has the same salary as a ex-LX FO !

And that an FO ex-SR has 50 % higher salary than and ex-LX FO in the same seniority scale. Plus other benifits.

Than again all the juniors at SR lost their jobs and within LX not (this counts as 100 % more)

I do not say we have to have the same salary level now but don't see ex-Lx as the winners of this all.

[blue belly]

The only reason that an LX FA has the salary of an FO is that MS is a slave driver...he got away with it for years...
Thank goodness he is gone, one idiot less in the avaition game
Maybe now a LX pilot will get the salary he is entitled too...
You blokes were shafted for years by him, unfortunately most of you still think the sun shines from his backside!!

[efcop]

sad, sad blue belly that anger has affected your ability to distinguish between a serious statement and irony.
of course an integration is a mess and some will get shafted a bit more than others.
so the winner is the individual who still has a regular paycheque at the end of the month and doesn't remain bitter for the rest of his life.

p.s. this time I wasn't being ironic...

[+TS]

The question is :

Fa salary too high or FO salary too low ?

If compared to other Regionals (0r regio dep's of majors) we are still doing ok with 3000 Euro's /month.

[blue belly]

I am glad you said it TS, Crossair is a regional carrier! At least you are honest!!

[Stingray]

Well Crossair Ltd. is now the Swiss flagcarrier.

The term regional airline is abused by the former SR guys to put the ex Crossair guys down.

The term is actually correctly fitting the environment in the US where there are regionals and mainlines, which operate even partly under different FAR's. Regionals usually are feeder airlines feeding the hubs of their respective mainline. That's why they are sometimes also referred to as commuter airlines.
Because of scope clauses they are usually only allowed to schedule a limited number of point to point flights. The number of aircraft with more than 50 seats they can operate is also strictly limited. Furthermore they are even limited in the total aircraft they can have in relation to the mainlines number.

Crossair has not been an airline like that at all. They were not only offering feeder flights, but also a lot of point to point connections. They had even their own hub at Basel airport and were starting to build one up at Geneva.
Then they have neither been limited in the number of aircraft they could operate nor were there any restrictions in their size. They had a considerable number of Avro RJ 85's and 100's plus up to 12 MD80's. They had their charter operations with the MD's and other types.
Finally the routes they flew have been far from regional: Basel-Helsinki for example or Geneva-Athens, Zurich-Valencia, Zurich-Edingborough, I don't know what's regional about that...

So one can't compare former Crossair with American regionals or commuters and therefore the term is misleading and mainly used to ridicule them.

[christian_MD80]

Well Stingray, I thought Crossair is history.

On the website of SWISS, there is no information about Crossair being the flag carrier of Switzerland.

In my believe, Crossair was a regional airline. SR-pilots lost enough, Crossair personnel was more lucky, but could still ask for higher salary, just don`t whine about ex-SR, its boring.

Be happy and help all your collegues for a better future, past was nasty enough!

chris

[middlepath]

Past is history, future is mistry, present is gift. It appears from the prospective of the management SR manpower is indispensible at present.

[Robert Vesco]

Well Stingray, I thought Crossair is history.

Sorry Chris, but if you look at the flight numbers they still start with LX which IS (not was ;) ) the Crossair designator. The HQ is in BSL in the Crossair building. A lot of the Crossair airplanes are still flying around in LX paint job. How many ex-SR aircraft (exept the ones parked with a "for sale" sign on them in ZRH :eek: ) do you see flying around with "Swissair" written on them ? :rolleyes:

Wake up and smell the coffee ! :D