Swiss salary
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Swiss salary
Read a lot about Swissair and Crossair recently but still unsure about the terms and conditions pre collapse and post. Anyone care to publish this or is it too sensitive? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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The pay is interesting because of course Swissair went bust and Crossair bought the detritus. Management now inform us that this was a merger (interesting from a legal standpoint) You're not interested in that though here is the answer to your question:
We have an A and a B scale pay list.
Ex Swissair captains and FOs maintain their old pay. If we are profitable in the first two years thay also get 15 million swiss francs bonus.
The Crossair captains get a pay rise that sees them paid the same as an ex Swissair FO after they have spent 12 years in the company (about 120,000 swiss francs).
The Ex Crossair FOs almost have to pay the company!!!! They get chicken feed.
There are other changes too: Swissair pilots keep their day off entitlement and Crossair pilots spend 5 years building up to it. So it goes on. If you are Swiss and 18 I would recommend you apply, if you are from anywhere else, steer clear.
NB Fair is a relative thing, especially in Switzerland!
We have an A and a B scale pay list.
Ex Swissair captains and FOs maintain their old pay. If we are profitable in the first two years thay also get 15 million swiss francs bonus.
The Crossair captains get a pay rise that sees them paid the same as an ex Swissair FO after they have spent 12 years in the company (about 120,000 swiss francs).
The Ex Crossair FOs almost have to pay the company!!!! They get chicken feed.
There are other changes too: Swissair pilots keep their day off entitlement and Crossair pilots spend 5 years building up to it. So it goes on. If you are Swiss and 18 I would recommend you apply, if you are from anywhere else, steer clear.
NB Fair is a relative thing, especially in Switzerland!
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Not exactly the correct answer.
The ex-Swissair pilots getting about 35% less overall. If SWISS is making profit in 2003 ex-SR getting about 4% more in 2004 and if there is a profit in 2004 ex-SR pilots get about 8% more in 2005.
Seniority is years SR or years LX.
On top of this ex-SR pilots pay about 4% solidarity to keep about 50 young pilots more flying for SWISS.
The ex-Swissair pilots getting about 35% less overall. If SWISS is making profit in 2003 ex-SR getting about 4% more in 2004 and if there is a profit in 2004 ex-SR pilots get about 8% more in 2005.
Seniority is years SR or years LX.
On top of this ex-SR pilots pay about 4% solidarity to keep about 50 young pilots more flying for SWISS.
Last edited by 773829; 5th Apr 2002 at 20:28.
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Back of the bus
Hobbit's right its a two class system.
- The saving class gets a little more
- The saved class give up anything up to 35%
The absolute unfairness of it all is that an ex SR 320 F/O flying say ZRH-GVA is rated as an A or (long hauler) while the ex LX MD80 Captain flying the same leg is rated as a B or (short haul).
The B Captain will get less than the A F/O - and who has the bigger craft, responsibility, whatever ?????
And that is where all the bitching is just starting.
Somebody correct me if I'm anywhere close to wrong.
Dear André got it absolutely wrong on this one - starting afresh he should have started all at 0 seniority and a clean new pay scale (somewhat above Crossair's if he can really afford it) and done his hireing on the basis of old LX and SR seniority.
- The saving class gets a little more
- The saved class give up anything up to 35%
The absolute unfairness of it all is that an ex SR 320 F/O flying say ZRH-GVA is rated as an A or (long hauler) while the ex LX MD80 Captain flying the same leg is rated as a B or (short haul).
The B Captain will get less than the A F/O - and who has the bigger craft, responsibility, whatever ?????
And that is where all the bitching is just starting.
Somebody correct me if I'm anywhere close to wrong.
Dear André got it absolutely wrong on this one - starting afresh he should have started all at 0 seniority and a clean new pay scale (somewhat above Crossair's if he can really afford it) and done his hireing on the basis of old LX and SR seniority.
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Do I understand that correct?
You guys ex-LX were unable to fight for a decent salary all the years and whine now because exSR-FOs who lost about a third of their salary still get more than your Capts?
Yes a new company would have been better, even better two. Airline with ex-SR and Commuter with ex-LX personnel, not having all this troubles with the financially upgraded LX-pilots who would take even more from the ones who are in trouble because of the highly reduced salary.
chris
You guys ex-LX were unable to fight for a decent salary all the years and whine now because exSR-FOs who lost about a third of their salary still get more than your Capts?
Yes a new company would have been better, even better two. Airline with ex-SR and Commuter with ex-LX personnel, not having all this troubles with the financially upgraded LX-pilots who would take even more from the ones who are in trouble because of the highly reduced salary.
chris
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Hi "studi",
You are right, when being involved in whatever way, have been trained by and flown with SR-pilots, I can`t be neutral on this subject. But on the other hand, seeing one group loses abt. one third and the other group gaining 15 %, I can`t see a reason for complaining
pilots.de is affirm
chris
You are right, when being involved in whatever way, have been trained by and flown with SR-pilots, I can`t be neutral on this subject. But on the other hand, seeing one group loses abt. one third and the other group gaining 15 %, I can`t see a reason for complaining
pilots.de is affirm
chris
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tej
I really find this "you should be happy to have a job at all"-attitude of certain former (it's a new company now!!!) CRX employees (luckily not all of them are as narrow minded!) appauling!!! You guys should really consider, if your situational awareness is sufficient, for working as a pilot...
Let's get something straight here:
-The money which SR was flying with after the grounding didn't come from the oooh so great rescuer CRX, it came from the Swiss taxpayers who wanted an intercontinental airline, they didn't want CRX!!!!!
-CRX would NEVER have gotten as big as it is now, if it hadn't been for Bruggisser's/Swissair's Hunter Strategy!!!
-CRX would NEVER be able to survive in the form it is in now, just as a regional airline without having the former SR-Network for PAX to connect to!
-CRX almost would have gone out of business a couple years ago, if SR hadn't bought them up!
What's being done now, is using CRX's structure as basis for the new airline, because legally it's much easier to use CRX than SR, in order to avoid creditiors sucking out all the money again! It's not because CRX was such a great company, or anything like that...
Let's get something straight here:
-The money which SR was flying with after the grounding didn't come from the oooh so great rescuer CRX, it came from the Swiss taxpayers who wanted an intercontinental airline, they didn't want CRX!!!!!
-CRX would NEVER have gotten as big as it is now, if it hadn't been for Bruggisser's/Swissair's Hunter Strategy!!!
-CRX would NEVER be able to survive in the form it is in now, just as a regional airline without having the former SR-Network for PAX to connect to!
-CRX almost would have gone out of business a couple years ago, if SR hadn't bought them up!
What's being done now, is using CRX's structure as basis for the new airline, because legally it's much easier to use CRX than SR, in order to avoid creditiors sucking out all the money again! It's not because CRX was such a great company, or anything like that...
Last edited by Air Bus Driver; 15th Apr 2002 at 08:44.
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The absolute unfairness of it all is that an ex SR 320 F/O flying say ZRH-GVA is rated as an A or (long hauler) while the ex LX MD80 Captain flying the same leg is rated as a B or (short haul).
So, if you get a higher salary flying the A320, it will be the first Crossair pilots that do a transition to the Airbus that profit of this higher salary. The already A320 qualified former SR F/Os that got layed off can, after a new application, start on the Saab as a B pilot, as you call it. If this was not absolutely outrageous, it woud be ridiculous!
So what we have is about 180 well trained and qualified Airbus F/Os that lost their jobs, while the former LX pilots, who prove their lack of situational awareness every day - by making statments as you, gofer, do - can keep flying and will eventually be upgraded to bigger aircraft types, that former SR selection once said most of them would better keep their hands off!
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Well said, skypointer 
And not to forget that several (in my group 5 out of 8!!!) ex-SR F/O's, who were willing to start at the bottom of the seniority list on S34 and EMB, were rejected by CRX for ridiculous or no reasons at all! That leaves great perspectives for a pilot job in Switzerland...
And not to forget that several (in my group 5 out of 8!!!) ex-SR F/O's, who were willing to start at the bottom of the seniority list on S34 and EMB, were rejected by CRX for ridiculous or no reasons at all!
That leaves great perspectives for a pilot job in Switzerland...
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Loss or gain?
tej: Chris, you should also consider the fact of gaining 65%
Servus tej!
When I see it in that light, I see 65 % gain for ex-SR and 115% gain for Crossair, with a different 100%-value, which we can`t see. Thats not in favor of you, but you asked. Yes, CRX would have gone bankrupt too, regional without mother, sorry, we take your paxes but not the company, could have been a saying by the surrounding regionals in Austria, Germany, France and Italy!
What happened was a tragedy, but don`t be silly and ask for further deductions on the ex-SR salary, they have lost enough. BTW, why didn`t you ever get out of the steps of a low-salary company, organize yourself as it seems you still are not. I`m sure you wouldn`t consider merging the two bodies?!
chris
Servus tej!
When I see it in that light, I see 65 % gain for ex-SR and 115% gain for Crossair, with a different 100%-value, which we can`t see. Thats not in favor of you, but you asked. Yes, CRX would have gone bankrupt too, regional without mother, sorry, we take your paxes but not the company, could have been a saying by the surrounding regionals in Austria, Germany, France and Italy!
What happened was a tragedy, but don`t be silly and ask for further deductions on the ex-SR salary, they have lost enough. BTW, why didn`t you ever get out of the steps of a low-salary company, organize yourself as it seems you still are not. I`m sure you wouldn`t consider merging the two bodies?!
chris
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For Swiss outsiders: If you came this far in this thread you probably realized there is a battle going on between the union of former Crossair (CCP, now SPA for Swiss Pilots Association) and former Swissair (Aeropers).
Players form each side are easy to identify, watch the games!!!
It is not only about salary, there is also seniority, more specifically job security, career opportunities and profit sharing to name a few.
For example if the high risk company Swiss had to be resized, the first couple of hundred pilots who had to be layed off would almost solely be former Crossair pilots, according to the currently proposed new collective work agreement.
Also obviously there is a discussion about whether Swissair really went bankrupt or not, or if it was just by mistake that the banks decided to buy Crossair out of 6 billion debt Sair group...
In Switzerland everybody but former Swissair pilots seems to agree on the fact that the two biggest banks bought Crossair out of Sair-Group before they went bankrupt, because it was a company which could function on its own and was with about 24% equity financially very sound.
Swissair on the other hand was so interlinked with Sair, that it couldn't function on its own any more.
Speculations about what would have happened, if the banks wouldn't have bought Crossair and if our world was different then it is are in my opinion quite boring.
Players form each side are easy to identify, watch the games!!!
It is not only about salary, there is also seniority, more specifically job security, career opportunities and profit sharing to name a few.
For example if the high risk company Swiss had to be resized, the first couple of hundred pilots who had to be layed off would almost solely be former Crossair pilots, according to the currently proposed new collective work agreement.
Also obviously there is a discussion about whether Swissair really went bankrupt or not, or if it was just by mistake that the banks decided to buy Crossair out of 6 billion debt Sair group...
In Switzerland everybody but former Swissair pilots seems to agree on the fact that the two biggest banks bought Crossair out of Sair-Group before they went bankrupt, because it was a company which could function on its own and was with about 24% equity financially very sound.
Swissair on the other hand was so interlinked with Sair, that it couldn't function on its own any more.
Speculations about what would have happened, if the banks wouldn't have bought Crossair and if our world was different then it is are in my opinion quite boring.
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Another Crossair view Sorry Stingray, even in Switzerland not everybody is on your side. Crossairs ability as stand alone company was very doubtful.
But you have many good points. As an outsider however I see two groups forced together. The one lost many things, among them some hundred collegues. For seniority reasons they have been kicked out before the "merger", or Crossair pilots had to be among them.
OK, you are right, two groups, two opinions. Thats no speculation.
chris
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I find it pointless to discuss the future Crossair would have had if it hadn't survived. There would be so much speculation involved, and everybody just puts in their own projections depending on 'political' orientation...
Furthermore I find still taking the 400 layed off Swissair pilots into account towards further layoffs makes no sense whatsoever.
Swissair doesn't exist any more, ex Swissair pilots now working for Crossair Ltd. should take as much risk for the company as Crossair pilots or there is no way how Swiss could ever function.
It wouldn't even do the laid off colleagues any good if one took their numbers into account, it would only give the remaining ex Swissair pilots more protection against layoffs at the expense of the original Crossair pilots.
Furthermore I find still taking the 400 layed off Swissair pilots into account towards further layoffs makes no sense whatsoever.
Swissair doesn't exist any more, ex Swissair pilots now working for Crossair Ltd. should take as much risk for the company as Crossair pilots or there is no way how Swiss could ever function.
It wouldn't even do the laid off colleagues any good if one took their numbers into account, it would only give the remaining ex Swissair pilots more protection against layoffs at the expense of the original Crossair pilots.
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Stingray,
The mid-& longrange fleet (former SR) had it's seat load factor up to 75-85% again in no time, after the grounding. However in the regional segment (fmr Crossair) the loadfactor lies around 40%. Now, I wonder which fleet is more likely to face resizing...?!?
But I bet, in your opinion, even if 20 EMB orders are cancelled, only ex-SR pilots should be fired, so you can transfer directly into the left seat of the MD-11... right?
BTW, you don't seem to believe that Swiss is a new company, but rather that Crossair took over Swissair. Well, according to Swiss law (OR333), if a company takes over another, it has to stick to the working contracts of the overtaken company for a year! Which in this case would mean, that ex-SR pilots still would have their CWA, LX pilots still their crappy CWA!!! So stop bitching about a contract which brings you many improvements...
The mid-& longrange fleet (former SR) had it's seat load factor up to 75-85% again in no time, after the grounding. However in the regional segment (fmr Crossair) the loadfactor lies around 40%. Now, I wonder which fleet is more likely to face resizing...?!?
But I bet, in your opinion, even if 20 EMB orders are cancelled, only ex-SR pilots should be fired, so you can transfer directly into the left seat of the MD-11... right?
BTW, you don't seem to believe that Swiss is a new company, but rather that Crossair took over Swissair. Well, according to Swiss law (OR333), if a company takes over another, it has to stick to the working contracts of the overtaken company for a year! Which in this case would mean, that ex-SR pilots still would have their CWA, LX pilots still their crappy CWA!!! So stop bitching about a contract which brings you many improvements...
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One should not forget what SWISS is currently running on: a big wallet with taxpayers money as well as significant financial support from big swiss industrial, financial and insurance companies.
And now there are two pilot corps, where some "hot-blooded" members of both, former Swissair and former Crossair are just on the way of screwing up any blink of potential economical success of SWISS with little wargames of more little boys with their toys.
SWISS is a NEW company, don't they get it ??!!
The shareholders and the board of directors hopefully give a **** (I deeply apologize for this rude expression...) on those whining "you went bankrupt, we didn't...or we fired already 400, now it's your turn"-arguments.
The black numbers on the bottom line at the end of the fiscal year, that's what counts, nothing else.
The pilots operate the planes, the management and board of directors run the company.
When SWISS would fail in its present size, the board and the management will economically "streamline" the company, regardless of who went bankrupt in earlier days or who already laid off 400 before SWISS took off.
I personally believe, that SWISS will be a success, i.e. makes money !
Cheers
cb
And now there are two pilot corps, where some "hot-blooded" members of both, former Swissair and former Crossair are just on the way of screwing up any blink of potential economical success of SWISS with little wargames of more little boys with their toys.
SWISS is a NEW company, don't they get it ??!!
The shareholders and the board of directors hopefully give a **** (I deeply apologize for this rude expression...) on those whining "you went bankrupt, we didn't...or we fired already 400, now it's your turn"-arguments.
The black numbers on the bottom line at the end of the fiscal year, that's what counts, nothing else.
The pilots operate the planes, the management and board of directors run the company.
When SWISS would fail in its present size, the board and the management will economically "streamline" the company, regardless of who went bankrupt in earlier days or who already laid off 400 before SWISS took off.
I personally believe, that SWISS will be a success, i.e. makes money !
Cheers
cb
Last edited by CarbonBrake; 20th Apr 2002 at 01:04.
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A remark to AirBus Driver's figures. I'm afraid your load factor figures are not correct.
Long Haul : Between 60 and 80 percent is correct, but ticket prices are very cheap due to big campaign. Yields are very low.
Meaning even if you fill an Md11 up to 95 percent and fly to Hong Kong and back you'll have a massive loss.
Short Haul : Correct load factors are between 52 and 58 percent.
On most routes there is a brake-even with about 25 percent load.
(Depending on route, day and aircraft)
So don't come with all these fact's from you're bottom of reality.
Long Haul : Between 60 and 80 percent is correct, but ticket prices are very cheap due to big campaign. Yields are very low.
Meaning even if you fill an Md11 up to 95 percent and fly to Hong Kong and back you'll have a massive loss.
Short Haul : Correct load factors are between 52 and 58 percent.
On most routes there is a brake-even with about 25 percent load.
(Depending on route, day and aircraft)
So don't come with all these fact's from you're bottom of reality.
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On most routes there is a brake-even with about 25 percent load.
Though probably LX did, while SR financed the difference. Well, those day are gone...
On the SR long haul network every route generated cash since Jan 02. The ticket rates were some 10% lower then in 2001, but the leasing about 50% and the staff salaries some 10-35% lower. Of course fuel was cheaper too and all the bad paying routes were given up after the SR grounding.
So I don't know where you have your figures from +TS. Probably made them up by yourself - and badly that is...
Your short haul laod factors are about right. You of course forgot to write that the Airbus fleet had around 60% and the former LX fleet about 35%.:o
I don't know the current figures, but the late SR proved that you can operate the 26 longhaul planes of SWISS with a profit.
However I would not be surprised if SWISS couldn't reproduce these figures, as the whole management doesn't seem to understand much about long haul operations and network mangement as they had never to do anything like this with LX.
Let's hope they prove me wrong here...
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Quote be Skypointer :
Do you really believe this? Well, it shows how little you know about this business. I fear not even a low cost carrier - which SWISS definitely is not - does make money with 25% load factor.
1. Low Cost carriers can only make money if they fill their 73's up to the max. and fly a lot. I don't know their brake even but it is high.
2. Swiss (ex LX), have relative high ticket prices on low densitiy routes (mostly) therefore a lower brake even at sometimes as low as 20 %.
Quote :
On the SR long haul network every route generated cash since Jan 02.
Of course it generated cash but was their a profit ?
And again I feel this totally misplaced feeling of superiority in your words.
How hard is it to just work together ??
Do you really believe this? Well, it shows how little you know about this business. I fear not even a low cost carrier - which SWISS definitely is not - does make money with 25% load factor.
1. Low Cost carriers can only make money if they fill their 73's up to the max. and fly a lot. I don't know their brake even but it is high.
2. Swiss (ex LX), have relative high ticket prices on low densitiy routes (mostly) therefore a lower brake even at sometimes as low as 20 %.
Quote :
On the SR long haul network every route generated cash since Jan 02.
Of course it generated cash but was their a profit ?
And again I feel this totally misplaced feeling of superiority in your words.
How hard is it to just work together ??