The NetJets contract - Good or Bad?

[nimbus21]

What do NetJets Europe pilots think about your new contracts?

Do you think it is has improved working conditions and benefits?

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Nimbus21 if you don't mind me asking, how many hours do you have ?

As fr the Question on NJE, there is so much already on it, do we really need to re start yet another thread. Like I said there is so much on it and it is regularly updated by various members.

[nimbus21]

Amex - zero hours!

Perhaps NJE should have their own forum in the Airline section?! But I still want to ask these questions to the experienced Netjets pilots as it is very beneficial insight for someone like me who has no experience. I dont want to make such an important career decision without fully exploring the subject. So the opinions and views of current NetJets pilots would be very much welcome.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Amex - zero hours!
and in a previous thread.
Basically, I have been offered a job as a Biz Jet pilot but I think I might prefer to be a pilot on the larger jet aircraft like the 737, A319, etc, etc http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=287767
Ok you got me confused then because I thought you were already holding a licence.
All I am saying is that most if not all the questions you have asked so far are already in this part of pprune.
You will find the Wannabes Forum full of good infos on how to get a licence, hours and a job. In aviation it is better to take things step by step although planning is good of course.

[nimbus21]

To clarify: been offered the NJE cadet scheme! Therefore this is why I value the views and opinions of the current NJE pilots before I go ahead and invest £66,000. I want to be absolutely 100% sure it is the right thing for me to do.

[pilotarosa]

nimbus
in aviation you can't be 100%sure!
in life you have to take risks...yes even with 60000 pounds...this is what most people that write in this forum have done!
As I said before the only thing you have to be sure is why you want to fly...and if the answer is to look cool in the pub and have a better chance of pulling girls (belive me there are people that decide to fly for this) DON'T DO IT
you seems focus and that's great but at the same time you didn't take a chance for help....I gave you my phone number via PM....too shy maybe?
ANYWAY GOOD Luck whatever you choose to do....but maybe buying one hour lesson on a 150 to see what flying is, would be a good start:E

[nimbus21]

Pilotarosa - I will take advantage of your kind offer. Thanks.

I see you are a current NJE pilot? Did you make the right decision in joining the company?

[clanger32]

I may be talking out of turn here, but it seems to me Nimbus, that you're very likely the same person OAT spotted here:
http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=3963

If this is not you, I apologise, but frankly I'm slightly perplexed by your attitude - you're humming and harring over a cadet scheme offer...maybe you're not aware of this, but this puts you in a far, far better place than almost any other newbie out there. Go on the training forum and you'll find people that would sell various family members for the opportunity you seem intent on spurning... Personally, I was rejected by Netjets after interview in Lisbon. I'm not bitter, no doubt they had their reasons, but it does give me some clarity. NJE, may not be the best co in the world, but you know what? Having a job offer and a type rating offer in hand is a better position than I'm in.

If it is you, then you seem to have learned little from your run in with OAT, as you now have a fifth incarnation....

If there's one thing I've really picked up on my route to starting my training, it's that this is a very small industry indeed.....thus treading carefully is probably a very good idea...

[bizantin]

I can't believe they ask you 66000 pounds!!! I agree it would have been a great deal 5years ago but not now!
They are desperate in pilots and you will be seat lock for a long time on the right hand seat. Consider you will not fly more than 300hours per year. You need 2500hours for command. That makes at least 7years solid before command! Man, a bravo might look "cool" the first 2 or 3 summers but...7!
66000pounds is what I paid in Euros for ATPL theory and CPL IR and Type rating on ATR42! was then full independant and normal salary scale and no seat lock...

[clanger32]

CJboy - whilst it has very little impact on me, one of the four "personalities" adopted by the OAT individual made specific reference to being sent for interview in Lisbon for a place on the Netjets scheme and then possibly dropping out half way through.

Given that in the first selection, 28 of us were sent down to Lisbon, it would follow that a similar amount were sent down for the second selection. I just find it very hard to believe that in this day and age, where the industry is so tough to get into that there would be two people who wouldn't JUMP at the chance for at least a partial sponsorship, coming from the same group of ? C. 28 people for the same scheme....

Also, fwiw, the comments about 7 years to command at NJE, may be true, but at the same time, you're not bonded to NJE if you take the cadetship...you just lose financial benefit if you leave before the training costs are re-paid....in that respect, I fail to see this as any worse than self sponsoring by whatever route and being 12 years from command at BA or someone else...
either way - I just really don't understand why you'd hesitate to grab ANY kind of financial assistance with both hands!

[bizantin]

That is right but still what company will give you command with so little. The pb remains. The flying hours you need at the beginning of a career is not there. Going to easy or ryannair for a couple years would give you much more hours although I agree experience and hours are not always linked but...still!

[hawkerpilot]

Pay big bucks, get peanuts. Do you really want to invest so much money in a bussiness jet operator that has not made profit since it started?
There are enough airlines out there that offer cadet schemes, or, as bizantin said: get your atpl, buy a decent typerating (not a mickey mouse jet rating) and be a captain before those 7 years. E.g. Flybe fo's average 2-3 years from low time to captain. I admit that is a bit quick but that is how the industry is at the moment. But then you fly airline stuff, not boy toys. 7 year on a bravo or hawker without an apu and no space to turn your ..sh.....think twice. Business aviation can give you some good experience, but if your goal is airline than go straight to an airline, there has never been a better time than now.:)

[hollingworthp]

For clarity - it should be pointed out that we were not asked to pay 66k by or to NJE - this is the price of the Integrated Ab-Initio training course run by OAT. So we will be graduating with the same fATPL as self-sponsored students with 2 weeks of additional training focused on NJE such as unusual attitude flying etc (in a Zlin I think - which should be fun). Also our sim sessions are on a soon to be purchased bus. jet sim rather than the current 737 sims.

This is an informed choice made by all the cadets which is why most of us will have selected NetJets rather than some of the other cadet schemes out there (although there are not quite as many schemes as you may think).

For a newly qualified pilot with 225 hours - it would be hard to say that NetJets is not an attractive company for those of us who have understood the lifestyle etc.

[Sterlingsky]

Clanger32 - I make no apologies for seeking the views of current serving netjets pilots before taking the very important decision to commit to netjets.

[falconbis]

reading all that stuff and guys like nimbus 21 coming in the industry I wonder about our future....I least we were overmotivated by flying any airplane, the carreer was not a concern at that time...it changed with time of course..:\

[Smeagel]

For those wondering about life in the company that offers "The best deal in the industry" here's an update.

On one day recently 12 pilots resigned. Twelve resignations in one day!!:D

That's ok though because they have "...lots and lots of quality applicants..." (official version) or are "....really struggling, positively scraping the underside of the bottom of the barrel....." (version given in the bar).

As the deadline for signing the new contract approaches (December) I wonder how many improvements the company will offer if the exodus continues? No wonder they set the cutoff date so far away, they knew this would happen.

Watching that place is better than telly:E

[2604]

Some contract signings are due in September. This could be why so many are resigning now.

[Fakawi]

Hello Smeagle,
after a long time just reading.
Watched your posts in the past a lot, seems to me quite informed info. Personally i left NJ a long time ago. Heard the dark master is gone (any info as to where to ?) and that that did not really improve things for the lot working there.
Who is running the show nowadays in Lis ?
What is the tally on resignations in middle management ie. Fleet managers.
I am quite curious.
Mike J. if you are reading feel free to post as well.

[drag king]

On one day recently 12 pilots resigned. Twelve resignations in one day!!

Well...at least 15 more were due to start their TR at FSI in FAB this week so it seems they won't miss them. Dunno...:E

Happy Landings

DK ;)

[Smeagel]

Well Fakawi some of my information is gradually passing its sell-by date as I'm no longer there either but I can answer some of your questions. I still have a few moles :E

Yes, DM left with a golden handshake though could be seen haunting the corridors on a 'consultancy' basis. As to whether or not he went elsewhere I don't know. He knows where the bodies are buried though so one would imagine he is well taken care of.

You heard right. The new management didn't really improve things for the employees although one or two things did get better. On the whole though the place is still not somewhere to build a career. Take the contracts for example, a mish-mash of UK, Portugal and Isle of Man based things. The latest spin is a 'UK contract' with tax paid in Portugal, NI paid in the UK and the employees spread across Europe/Scandinavia. Sadly there are more than a few tax authorities who refuse to accept this cobbled together arrangement and are demanding their pound of flesh. In one country the crew are anticipating this will mean them taking home 10% of their salary. It would be laughable were it not so serious.

The show is being run by new management one of whom learned all he knows about aviation within the one company. By all accounts he is well thought of but perhaps too trusting in that he believes that those beneath him tell him the truth when in fact some are continuing to cover their arse.

Fleet managers seem to roll on through though not as rapidly as they used to. Some really try to make a difference and balance out the madness imposed from above but are undermined by the less gifted. There are still more than a few who simply cannot grasp how to 'manage' and spend their days surfing the web (I'm including some departmental managers and supervisors in this) or in the case of at least one FM hiding from problems.

The crew turnover is increasing as the deadline to sign the new contract approaches and the supply of new hires is drying up, the quality is a lot lower than it used to be. Owners are bailing out too.

Shame really. If they'd thought long term a few years ago and not abused their crew they could have been on to a winner.

Drag King. I like your logic, you'd do well in Lisbon:ok:

[drag king]

Drag King. I like your logic, you'd do well in Lisbon

Let me guess...do you think I am of the (new) "dirty dozen"? I guess you guessed wrong mate. It just happened I was there for my training which is not necessary related with NJE. However the welcome packs were lined up at reception's desk and just glancing at the tags many appeared to be coming from LIS's. This was a fact, everything is personal opinion.

You bet I would love LIS just for the climate and food...:{

Hope u get fresh infos soon to keep us updated on this soap.

Regards

DK ;)

[Smeagel]

Let me guess...do you think I am of the (new) "dirty dozen"? I guess you guessed wrong mate.

:O Sorry DK, didn't make myself clear. I was only kidding.

[drag king]

Sorry DK, didn't make myself clear. I was only kidding.

No offence taken at all, pal. It just amazes me how long and how badly this soap has gone on. I wouldn't mind joining NJE in future knowing very little about the past, present and future of this outfit. The crews that I met regulary seemed pretty happy as well as those coming to FSI for recurrents so...

Flight & Lifestyle (roaster, basing, gateways) seem appealing to me. Money isn't that bad compared to those nutters running some LoCos but we are talking of 2 different beasts. I have to enjoy my 2 little fans for a while but wonder what is next...:E

I hate to punctualize the obvious but...is there any perfect company? :{

You mentioned owners calling out but the orders book was said to be healty. We will see.

DK ;)

[Flintstone]

I've flown more than a few ex-Netjets owners over the past year and it's amusing to hear their stories from their point of view. Top of the list comes being lied to by Netjets when things went wrong. I always found it odd that upon joining the company everyone is told how the aircraft owners did not get where they are by being stupid while Customer Services or whatever they are called now is spouting outrageously unbelievable stories to conceal the cock-ups.

The order books are full, sure. But at what cost? The quality of service has suffered according to these ex-owners and all the ex-crew I know, myself included. Standards of customer service out in the 'real' bizjet world are considerably higher in my experience.

[thedeadseawasonlysick]

It all comes down to the fact that they should close the sales department for a while. This would give them the chance to train sufficient crews, dispatch and support staff and ground engineers to cope with the present workload.

Will it happen? Extreemly unlikely, I assume the sales staff get commission. Stop selling, no commission. Until they do something, however, given the rate of resignations, it can only get worse.

[eiefkei]

Hi Nimbus,
I'm looking for the same informations that you are asking in this thread, because i'm also in the cadet scheme.Can we make a contact?

[Flintstone]

Well eiefkei, you might be waiting some time for a reply from Nimbus (or whatever else he called himself). The general concensus seems to be that he was a little careless with his posts. Or was a troll. Or just wasn't very bright.

Anyway, he's gone.

Bumped into one of my ex-colleagues from Netjets the other day who told me that as of a couple of weeks ago the resignation tally so far this year was 55.:eek: How many crew are there now? 600? Ooooh, dear.

[johnbull69]

What is the take home pay for a captain and fo on the new deal?

[FourGreenNoRed]

Bumped into one of my ex-colleagues from Netjets the other day who told me that as of a couple of weeks ago the resignation tally so far this year was 55.:eek: How many crew are there now? 600? Ooooh, dear.

Not quite true, acc. to the latest number they lost one per week so far 23 which is prognosed 55 at the end of the year. Might change for the worse since the effects of the new contract are not quite predictable. A few retired, some went to the mayors (especially AF is hiring), some "got" resigned. others went to the place where the grass is greener.
Overall normal fluctuation, ask AB, Ryan, TAG and so on!

But the Danish and the French might make a difference soon.

OR, dear NTA PPRUNE Monsieur and Medame and Danish what are your thoughts?

If you have a second sparetime: Post your thoughts and your facts and your fears!

[Flintstone]

Not quite true, acc. to the latest number they lost one per week so far 23 which is prognosed 55 at the end of the year.

Really? You sure? Because he was very, very specific about this. No talk of projected resignations at all. His exact words were "As of a couple of weeks ago 55 have gone".

While we're on the subject of Netjets crew discussing their own departures another told me today that the talk within the company was that there were "About 100" (direct quote again) pilots seriously looking to leave. Not me making these comments you understand but your own colleagues which, even if he is inaccurate, is a little worrying that a workforce is prepared to spread such information.

Ah well. Now, anyone want to discuss the weather?;)

[Resolute]

Flintstone....you are misinformed.

eiefkel - send me a PM please.



From the Towers: Resolute is a Nimboid life form 21 times over.

[Resolute_nimboid]

Get over it!

[redsnail]

Methinks you've been rumbled again....

[Resolute_nimboid]

I think you might be right! Damn my inability to go stealth!!!

[Flintstone]

Not 55 then RN? Care to say how many? Just curious as I seem to be seeing more and more CV's from that neck of the woods these days.

While I'm asking does anyone know how the lawyer appointed by the French crewmembers got on with the London office the other day. Did he have any more success than he did with Lisbon?

[bizantin]

Company did not answer yet. As usual, they ll wait.
Hopeless.

[Flintstone]

For what it's worth you have my sympathy. They'll never learn how to handle their staff decently.

[Resolute_nimboid.]

Redsnail: I dont think they'll rumble me this time?!?!