COS 08 - new info just in

[jed_thrust]

Ladies and Gentlemen
COMPANY PROPOSALS ON PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
After careful consideration of the recent pay and COS offer, the General Committee has by a majority voted against recommending ratification of the proposals.
The DFO has been informed of the outcome of the GC vote. We will advise you of any response in due course.
A more detailed explanation of the GC decision will follow shortly.
Regards
Steve Turner
President
14 August 2007

[Nullaman]

Thanks for the update.

Time now to have mass recruiting drive for AOA?

[Captain TOGA]

Breaking news... Capt Four Bars just resigned from AOA...

[Giggleswick]

This is great news IF it is true but I can't see any announcement on the AOA website yet??? Call me cynical but this is PPRuNe after all!!!

Hopefully it is and it is an indication that the GC now realise the divisive and corrosive effect that our inequitous pay structure is having upon the morale of its membership.

The way forward should involve each and every one of us letting our representatives know what our realistic expectations are for the next round of 'negotiations'. Here are mine:

1. A-scale and B-scale merged at CN1 - Same seat, Same salary!

2. B-scale for all FOs including DEFOs - Same seat, Same salary!

3. NO Freighter scale - Same seat, Same salary!


Simple really.



Remember this IS it, there will be NO later!

[SMOC]

Giggleswick, have you taken that suggestion to the AOA? If so what did they say, if not let us know when you do and what they say. Looks like a good start and may actually get a unified pilot body, the last thing the company wants! I'm all for it!!!

[Guru]

Unified Expatriat Pilot Body.

[Guru]

It depends. Are people talking about being unified in spirit or unified in terms of the total remuneration package?

[Harbour Dweller]

Congratulations to the GC for rejecting what has to be one of the worse deals ever offered to a pilot body.

[Giggleswick]

No I haven't put this forward to the GC yet as I figure they get regular feedback from this site already. I would however like to see them canvas the membership for their opinions before entering the next 'round' of negotiations . I believe the 'cloak of secrecy' surrounding this fiasco has backfired upon us. It has excluded the membership from the process and created an uneasy feeling of complicity between the two sides. I for one felt like we were about to be 'sold out' even before the shocking details emerged! This is NOT how it should be. The GC should first and foremost put OUR interests ahead of a desire to maintain a cosy, collegiate relationship with the company. The GMA's hitman, STENgun, and his ilk are employed to cultivate this 'for the greater good' atmosphere and then exploit it ruthlessly. These guys are as cunning as jailhouse rats! If you don't believe me consider this glimpse into the future:

Transcription of conversation between the President of the AOA and NR sometime towards the end of 2009!


President: "...thanks Nick, now with the end of our two year pay deal rapidly approaching don't you think we should set aside some time to gather around the table and 'thrash' out another?

NR: "....doesn't time fly while one's 'hedging' one's bonus Mr President. Sorry, you're right of course, we are approaching THAT time again but there are some ISSUES which we need to address first"

President: "..But these are simply pay talks Nick, I thought we dealt with all the ISSUES back in 2007."

NR: " ..you're right of course we certainly resolved SOME back then but I'd really like to RE-VISIT Housing, Education and ROSTERING PRACTICES. I think there are some major concessions which you could offer us which would smooooooth the way forward towards scheduling talks"

President: ".. thanks Nick, I'll talk with the GC then canvas the membership to find out what they are willing to accept"

NR: "..don't waste your time Mr President, just tell me what you can bring to the table this time around"

President: "...umm, well let me see Nick, back in 2007 we GAVE you RA65, we GAVE you the FACA and we GAVE you our DEFO agreement in return for a 10% payrise over eight years ('01-'09). We don't have anything left to give except our kidneys of course!"

NR: "..I figured that Mr President, let me talk with CAD Medical and see if we can get a dispensation for these. Be in touch."


Sound credible?!


Same Seat, Same Salary, No Compromise!

[Liam Gallagher]

Giggleswick,

Were you here in 2001?

[Giggleswick]

Yes Liam I can assure you I go back way before 2001 but thanks for asking!

[ColdWar]

You have advanced a very clear proposal (with the implication that pay should be dealt with, independently), and I commend you. The strength of your plan is that it puts the spirit of unity into practice
I have one question, however: by including DEFO pay, across the board, are you not, inadvertantly, introducing a (yet unresolved) CoS item into your pay proposal? My concern is the negative impact (on advancement) on our SO's. If we are to aim for unity for the pilot group, best to include everyone, no?
Have I misunderstood?

ColdWar

[BlunderBus]

you see things with a wonderful clarity...sounds like the plan to me :)
just incidentally when the company want to discuss flight time limits,cos or housing (or anything at all) they REFUSE to lump pay scales or anything we'd like to see changed into the argument.....how is it we have to consider changes to just about everything when they feel like talking?

[Liam Gallagher]

Giggleswick,

Seem to recall the objectives of the 2000/01 campaign were very similar and had only "marginal" successive. Why would a 2007/8 campaign be any more successful?

[BlunderBus]

We have reconsidered our offer and have amended the terms.
All current A-scale will be allowed to retire and fade away at 55.
The money we save will fund a massive DEFO recruitment
Future Command promotions will be DE for freighters onto a base or from the DEFO pool already on the base...experience level requirements amended from 'time to time'
All hong kong based crew remaining after A scalers are gone will be forced onto a base and allowed to continue to 65 on current pay.(-20% basing cut)
All hkg crews reaching 55 will have to resign.
All pay and conditions frozen.
We already have 49 names picked out if you don't like it.
Have a nice life.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote Harbour Dweller: 'Congratulations to the GC for rejecting what has to be one of the worse deals ever offered to a pilot body.'

You obviously haven't seen the KA offer then! :{

[404 Titan]

Dan Winterland

I have no details of the offer but has the KA Pilots Association rejected the offer?

[Dan Winterland]

Yes. And yes again (to get over the minimum word requirement).

[BusBusBus]

To be honest, even though the CoS08 is crap, I got this feeling that we will not get any improved offer or even any more offer at all, especially now that we have rejected the company initial proposal. But I could be wrong.

bus

[BlunderBus]

I'm a bit confused(as usual) about how this process has been developed.
The GC and the company bang heads for 2-3 months but the union membership have no prelim. input as to what gets talked about.And of course neither 'side' can utter a peep..'oh no' while talks are going on.. to protect what exactly?Why can't members have a say all along the way and stop all the time being wasted discussing any option that is already totally unacceptable?
Why does the GC have to ratify anything?Why not pass on the deal for a vote and just shut up..let the members ratify it..or not.Duh.."it's the best we could get" duh "there's only so much money in the bucket"...hello! close to 7 BILLION this year alone after tax.
The GMA just issued a statement that the 'conditions of the talks included agreement/ratification from the GC before an offer was made public'?????
And now..without any reference to the union membership at all..the GC 'pulls the plug' ..based on what exactly....two weeks of speculative comment on pprune?
The members know very well what is ball park acceptable and now everyone is grossly pissed off before the game has really even begun...with a crap deal(did you really expect anything else)offered.
This is not gamesmanship..it's just a waste of time and the only winners are the company dragging everyone along on pay issues that should have been addressed 10 years ago.
The lesser ranks only want pay to catch up they're not asking for the moon.And protection of current employees against being outranked/outpaid and promoted over by direct entry el cheapo's once again...not to mention them nicking all our basings that we've worked years to go on ourselves.
How f**king simple is that???
Get on with it.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

BLUNDERBUS my dear chap,

I agree with the vast majority of what you have said recently, the delivery is a bit rough, but it is honest and in the main pretty accurate. However you are wrong regarding the member input prior to negotiations. There are many forums open on the AOA website on all kinds of topics, its just that they are not available to non members and I think I read you quit based on some single issue that ticked you off some time ago.

The company apparantly insisted that the CG recommend the deal and that was a pre condition, personally I think that is a bit odd but hey thats CX mismanagements method of negotiation, so now they can blame the GC and offer the deal individually, probably watered down just to jam it in a little because they cannot help themselves.

I hope as many crew as possible join the union to have a collective say in our destiny, but one thing is for sure those not in the union have no influence or in particular a vote on what is of vital importance to all our futures.

[Peebee and Jay]

I hope as many crew as possible join the union to have a collective say in our destiny, but one thing is for sure those not in the union have no influence or in particular a vote on what is of vital importance to all our futures. :D

Well said. We have to get the membership numbers up. This affects all of us and everyone that plans to join CX in the future. Forget the past ("mistakes" made by the AOA) and think about the future. Our GC needs the support of the MAJORITY of the pilot body. We give them the power they need to negotiate.

To the guys that are willing to fall on their swords i.e look for better employment at EK or wherever, sit on your hands and think carefully. If it is for personal reasons and not to punish or spite CX, then go for it and best of luck to you. If you're doing it to spite CX, think again. It will take a mass exodus to get their attention.

Well done to the GC. :ok:
Keep the applications coming.

[BusBusBus]

The GMA just issued a statement that the 'conditions of the talks included agreement/ratification from the GC before an offer was made public'?????


The company apparantly insisted that the CG recommend the deal and that was a pre condition, personally I think that is a bit odd but hey thats CX mismanagements method of negotiation, so now they can blame the GC and offer the deal individually, probably watered down just to jam it in a little because they cannot help themselves.


I think the company want the GC to recommend the deals before it is made public because it is part their negotiating strategy. If the GC accept the deal and let the members vote, the members will blame GC for accepting such a crappy deal (ie: smash the credibility of the GC). If the GC rejects the deal before voting, the company can now go to the world of public opinion and tell the world that all these rich spoil pilots and their union are still complaining even though we offer them a 11.5% pay increase over two years (Base + HDP 84 hrs max, and mind you this is what the company will quote to the press if they have to, and they could possibly quote more. The company can quote more if you consider A-scale over 55 salary now vs after the deal). Either way, it will hurt the AoA and bonus point for the company. Think about it guys, Swire and CX managements are good at what they do, that's how they make so much money. CX and Swire is very good at making themselves look good while painting a bad picture for others. They are also very good at the divide, crush and conquer strategy. Based on the current pilot demographic, with A-scale, B-scale, Freighter scale, and everyone on different base with different salary scale, AoA members, non-AoA members, Local Pilots, old A-scaler over 55 that at now on B-scale, etc... This makes it very difficult for us to negotiate because everyone want something different, the company knows this (they created this system). When one group is happy, the others are not, it is almost impossible to satisified everyone. In order to have any reasonable starts, the GC need to figure out what is the priority for each group and base the negotiations around these priorities. This way, everyone will get something and it will probably increase the AoA practicipation rate in the future, thus allow the AoA to have a better negotiating power. To be honest guys, I really don't think we will be able to squeeze too much from the company at this negotiations, but if we are smart about what we do this time and fix some of the problems, we might be able to get more down the road in two years time.

bus

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

All this talks about VOTING?? What VOTING are you guys talking about? You have no union, no rights...what exact power do you think you guys have that could force the company to agree to anything? If CX wants to pay you fellas less money, that's what they'll do. Why moan about it? They'll just fire some people to make examples then all will follow suit.

This is not to make anyone upset, but isn't that the fact of life in Hong Kong? When was the last time the AOA got you guys anything, except for paycuts and lost jobs?

[cpdude]

I think the GC did a wonderful job and saved us two months of waiting to determine the same outcome.

Good on ya GC!;)

[Frogman1484]

I thank the GC for rejecting this offer...now I can still say that the GC is looking after the majority of the crew and not only the most senior.

[Rice Pudding]

This offer was simply the best that company were prepared to present at the present time. Great to all those who saw it for what it was and wrote to the union. Thanks to the HKAOA firstly for presenting it to the members, and secondly for responding to our requests to have it binned.

This offer was about crewing new airplanes, not about the pay rise that we asked for.

Extending A scalers is an effective way to increase the work force, whilst meeting employment laws, and getting the pilots to ratify it also cunningly does away with bypass pay.

Lets now get back to negotiating the pay raise that is long overdue. When thats finished (and when we're all happy with it) there will be plenty of time to negotiate other company wish lists.

[Peebee and Jay]

To the GC, I thank you for rejecting the "offer". :D Can't believe that NR is surprised and "disappointed"? The negotiation was supposed to be about our salary. NOT about crewing aircraft and retirement age (thrown in to cloud the negotiations). := We have to stick to the topic. We have to avoid a repeat of RP07, and not allow them to get what they want by offering something worse and "forcing" us to accept the first deal. We have talked about housing and RP's, the time has come to talk about money. The retirement age will be enforced at a later stage ... but not now.

Show me the money! :ok:

"Hans! Bring the steamroller!"