NetJets Pilots..........

[nimbus21]

I would be grateful for advice from current netJets pilots....

1. How do you find the 6 on / 5 off roster? Is the job more suited to single men/women because you hardly get to see your partners/children, or does it allow you to have a fairly normal home life?

2. Does it get tedious staying in hotels for 18 nights per month?

3. Does it get tedious spending 6 days on a tour with just one other pilot?

4. Do you prefer flying NetJets to mass pax airliners?

5. Do the UK pilots find that their sterling equivalent salaries fluctuate much due to variations in the Euro exchange rates? Are such currency exchange rate variations taken into account to ensure the UK pilots are not disadvantaged when the Euro exchange rate is high?

Thanks.

[Treetopflyer]

Hi Nimbus

1. The 6/5 roster is good, gives you proper rest and time to do things at home. Some pilots say they don't see their family enough, but I still think it's better than many other business aviation jobs where you are on 15 on/15 off kindda thing, and always expected to be on standby while at home........ No, really, 6/5 is not a problem... The problem is when NetJets cuts it to 6/4 or 6/3...

2. No, not for me at least.

3. It depends on the other pilot!!! :E Generally though, you fly with normal and easy-going people, so it's not a problem (my own experience at least).

4. Yes, no comparison... And most people who leave NetJets to fly for airlines do it for other reasons (money, roster, contract, etc...).

5. Dunno about that.

Cheers :ok:

TTF

[nimbus21]

Thanks for your response.

Can any other NetJets pilots offer their opinions?

[redsnail]

6-5 is fine for me. I don't have kids and my husband's in the industry so he's familiar with the job. He's home every day but works for a lo-co.
My family's in Australia so I don't see them any way.

No, it doesn't get tedious staying in hotels ~14-15 days a month. Some are fantastic, some are ok, some aren't.. It's a good chance to catch up with colleagues and if time's available, see some sights.

One of the things the recruiters look for is sociability. Since you're with the same person for 6 days s/he'd better not have weird behaviours. I don't find it a problem.

Mass pax? All pax have mass! No, I don't want to do scheduled airline flying. Too routine and too boring. Done regional flying and that wasn't bad but no way does it compare to this. Husband looks at the flying and variety I get with envy.

Very little if any noticeable fluctuation with the euro/pound. It's usually fixed for a set exchange rate for X number of months to cover that scenario.

[nimbus21]

Thanks for your response - very helpful.

Does anybody have any insight on the following 2 questions:

1. Regarding the NetJets €70 per diem...

- Is it on a use-it-or-lose-it basis? If you dont use it all can you keep the remainder as a top-up to your salary?
- Does it get paid directly into your salary?
- What can you spend it on?

2. Do NetJets pay for car parking at your gateway? If not, I could imagine this could be quite expensive over the course of the year. Do current pilots have any tips to reduce these costs?

Thanks.

[south coast]

70 Euros per day is paid directly into your account, depending on how many days you to for that month, ie. if you did 18 days in May, in June, you would get 18 * 70 in your account.

Spend it as you please, room and breakfast is paid by the company, the rest is up to you.

If you need to ask what to spend it on...come on!

NJ does not park for your parking, yoiu apply for a parking card through the HR dept and they deduct it over 3 months from your per diems, ie. 250 euros per month for 3 months and that takes care of parking at Heathrow for a year.

[nimbus21]

Excellent - thanks.

So the only thing you have to pay for yourself from your €70 is dinner?

I believe you get crew meals on the plane?

Sounds like a pretty good deal really.

Do you think the company looks after their pilots well?

[Treetopflyer]

Actually the 70€ is used for food, but is also supposed to pay for miscellaneous things such as uniform cleaning, car parking at gateway, etc...

Yes you can eat in the airplane. However it is strictly cold food on the small/medium fleets. And really after a day flying, what most people want is to get out of the airplane and have a warm meal... So bottom line: you end up in restaurants most evenings...

Whether the 70€ per diem is a good deal or not depends a lot on your destination...

[redsnail]

Since I don't go to Japan or eat out at the Savoy every night then the 70 euros is fine.

I just use the easyJet car park at Luton. I can because we only have one car and my hubby works for easyJet. Otherwise I take a taxi. When my gateway was Heathrow, I used the bus. That's part of the deal with the 70 Euros.

Often, the only hot meal I'll get is breakfast and that can be a hit or miss affair. If it's an early show, forget breakfast. At the end of the day and you're looking at your crew meal that's been on board for a few hours with no refrigeration then it often isn't that palatable. Hence the desire to get out of the bat suit and into a nice restaurant for a decent meal.

I personally have no complaints about how the company has treated me but others will justifiably disagree. Whether or not they choose to post their disagreements is up to them and not for me to discuss in a public forum.

There isn't a job in the world that is 100% fabulous 100% of the time for 100% of the staff.

A lot of your questions have already been asked and you'll find a lot of what you're looking for with the search function. I do understand you wanting to explore the situation. Are you considering the cadet scheme run by OATS or direct entry?

[nimbus21]

Thanks for the helpful response.

I am just exploring the whole area at the moment to be absolutely sure it really is the right thing for me to do. It is really helpful to be able to get the views of people who are actually doing the job at the moment.

I keep thinking of more questions. Can anyone possibly advise on the following please.....

1. What rate of tax do UK NetJets pilot have deducted from their salary? Is it on the UK rate of tax or Portuguese rate of tax?

2. Can passengers smoke onboard the aircraft or is this banned by the JAA legislation? I could imagine it could be very challenging landing an aircraft if your eyes are irritated by passengers' smoke.

Thanks.

[Smeagel]

Nimbus.

All very good if somewhat superficial questions. You might want to try asking about seniority.

Pension.

What guarantees are there that the company won't impose contract changes (again) without consultation or negotiation.

What representation the crew have.

When time spent positioning on airlines (and therefore on company business) will begin to be counted as duty time.

The legality of living in one country, being forced to pay tax in another and your social contributions (National Insurance) in a third.

Just a few points that some might consider more important than where to park your car.

[south coast]

Smeags, anyone would think you were being negative about NJ's?

I heard that they gave a guy called Mongo Wogchops a hard time about a few things?

You know anything about that?

[Smeagel]

Ahhhh, yes. Mongo. I was up at Oxford with his father Bongo y'know.

Small chap but incredibly strong. I woke up after one of his soirees and found I'd married three of his sisters :E

[RAFAT]

Up to post #10 this topic was an interesting and factual read.

Smeagel - I think nimbus would be interested in hearing any facts you may have instead of simply posting third person question suggestions.

eg. - You might want to try asking about seniority, pension, what representation the crew have.

[Scroll Lock]

Smeagel.....

LOL
Nice one
:D

[nimbus21]

Smeagal - you raise some interesting questions that I had not considered - I am still rather naïve about the aviation world due to my lack of experience! Are you able to offer your own views on the questions that you raise please?

Thanks

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Smeagal - you raise some interesting questions that I had not considered - I am still rather naïve about the aviation world due to my lack of experience! Are you able to offer your own views on the questions that you raise please?

:);):ok: Excellent question... Answer on a post card err... I mean in a book Harry Potter's style :p:cool:

[Smeagel]

RAFAT. My goodness, so tense. If I drop a piece of charcoal down the crack of your arse would you squeeze it into a diamond for me? Take deeeeeeep breaths and relax (while I slip on this rubber glove :E)

Anyone reading my "third person questions" would have realised that they were heavy allusions to what is NOT right with NJE. I thought it was obvious, the others all thought it was obvious (I see them nodding) so where's the problem? Anybody who has been around this forum for more than five minutes would be well aware of what is wrong in the Garden of NJEden (did you see what I did there?:O) and I was merely repeating what I have written oft before. Granted it was a tad indirect but then I know people get so sick of hearing me slag the company off over and over again.

Nimbus oh mighty broomstick rider. As AMEX posted in the other thread you started there is already a wealth of information in here on NJE, all you need to do is use the search function. Yes, a lot of it is out of date but there plenty that isn't. Failing that I believe Pilotarosa sent you his phone number in a PM so you could call and ask him which is pretty generous I feel. If you meet up though stay away from his hands, he has a 'reputation'.;)

In a nutshell for you though my views on NJE boil down to this (and I apologise to those who are reading this for the 'n'th time). If you shake hands with anyone in upper management count your fingers afterward, they are not to be trusted. Time and again they have gone back on their word, changed contracts without consulation with the the crew, reduced terms and conditions etc etc. They don't care much for your written contract and those who have fallen foul of them in the past have had to resort to the courts to get what is due to them.

The tax situation for certain crewmembers is an absolute nightmare. If you are UK based then you are probably safe for now but your colleagues will not be so. The company has existed in Europe for what, ten years? Yet they still can't be bothered to introduce a 'proper' system.

Pension. There is none.

Crew representation. There is none. The company does what it likes to/with you.

You are a consumable. Don't be fooled into thinking upper management care about the workforce, they don't. Most fleet managers etc do (there are one or two who should never have been given their positions) but their influence is limited. The company expects to keep pilots for a maximum of three years, what does that tell you?

In short NJE is a nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to live there. There are some excellent people on the inside who are doing their best to change things but theirs is a long and tortuous path and many have fallen by the wayside. Until the company changes its attitude and fixes a few things it will never be a career. For now that appears unlikely as it is run by money men and people only interested in themselves.

On the other hand if you are looking to fly lots of hours in new aircraft to interesting and varied places with nice colleagues (apart from that French bloke that hangs around in here;)) before moving on to somewhere more civil then it's the place for you.

Is it worth £66,000? Only you can answer that one.

[bizantin]

Hi Nimbus,.

Smeagel is somewhat sarcastic but very right in his assessment. Do not plan NJE for long term. It is just a nice step if you are looking for experience and wait for BA, AF, Virgin.... Do not come for the money (very deceiving). F/O salary is 3000euros net/month. Not that net though as you may have to pay some more depending on your country of residence. It does not include any pension either!
Once you have paid your taxes, the car park, the pension, remains nothing.
Captain salary with a minimum of 2500hrs will then be 5400euros with the same constraints as mentioned above.
70euros aday you will spend especially on small/medium cabin to get a warm meal. Once again this is 30% below the market.
This deal announced as the best deal in Europe is just way below the market.
last thing...do not get sick.
Enjoy

biz

[nimbus21]

Thanks for the helpful responses.

The lack of a pension sounds worrying! Do you pay into a private pension? What kind of amounts do NJE pilots typically pay into their monthly pension? I had not factored this issue in and it sounds like a huge disadvantage! This is worrying!

Do you think NJE will try to reduce the 6 on / 5 off roster? Surely any less than 5 days off would be ludicrous?! Pilots would surely leave the company in large numbers.

Do NJE pilots really only work 178 days per year (as stated in their press announcement of 5 dec 2006)? Compared to the average 9-5 office worker who typically works c. 230 days per year, then this NJE contract seems very generous! Am I missing something here?

http://www.netjetseurope.com/presscentre/english/Press%5Freleases/2006/244/2/

[Smeagel]

The lack of a pension sounds worrying! Do you pay into a private pension? What kind of amounts do NJE pilots typically pay into their monthly pension? I had not factored this issue in and it sounds like a huge disadvantage! This is worrying! Perhaps I was a little misleading. For UK based pilots the pension plan is pretty much useless. When I contacted the comapny's own appointed administrator about joining I was told, and I quote, "It's crap" and that was from the person who would earn commission if I signed up.

Do you think NJE will try to reduce the 6 on / 5 off roster? Surely any less than 5 days off would be ludicrous?! Pilots would surely leave the company in large numbers. They have done it in the past and it was the thing that pissed most people off. Like I said ignore what your written contract says as they will change it if they feel like it. They made a big deal about 'giving' everyone 6/5 but that was a bit rich considering it had been taken away in the first place.

As for people leaving well the 6/5 has been reinstated and they still are. Two pilots a week according to a source in Lisbon.

Do NJE pilots really only work 178 days per year (as stated in their press announcement of 5 dec 2006)? Compared to the average 9-5 office worker who typically works c. 230 days per year, then this NJE contract seems very generous! Am I missing something here? Yes. The thing you are missing is experience of working a six day tour on a small cabin aircraft which is physically and mentally exhausting particularly in the exytremes of summer and winter. You think that sounds cool? Try sitting in a cockpit that has been baked to an interior temperature of 50C with no air conditioning until you can get the engines running which will be after you've heaved the luggage aboard.

The five off sounds great until you realise that you will spend at least the first day home recovering, more like two. The last day off will be spent ramping up to go back to work so that really only gives a maxumum of three days to relax. Many, many other companies give even days on/off ie, 7/7, 14/14, month on/off etc. As falconbis says the so called "Best deal in Europe" is just so much spin, NJE is first and foremost a SALES company. These people persuade their owners to part with millions so they sure as hell find it easy to paint you a pretty picture. It ain't the worst but by a long chalk it ain't the best.

[nimbus21]

Damn, it sounded like such a great job until you consider all the other factors. The lack of a good pension is a hugely negative factor.

I guess the variety and interesting destinations make up for some of the negative aspects.

I wish I had gone for the Thomas Cook cadet scheme instead!

Is the €70 diem tax free?

[south coast]

Nimbus, are you for real?

You are obsessed about the 70 Euros!

How many times do you need to be told, it is tax free!

But surely the 70 Euros is not the deciding factor to your choice process and I think it best you probably go for the Thomas Cook scheme as you sound like a moaner!

[nimbus21]

Sheesh, some people are tetchy!

[Flintstone]

And some people are trolls.

Sorry nimbus but I'm calling wind-up.











Mind you. South Coast IS a tetchy bugger:p

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Sorry nimbus but I'm calling wind-up.
Yep I second that one ;)
:ok:

[RAFAT]

Smeagel - Leaving aside your interest in my behind, thank you for your more informative post above. :ok:

[bizantin]

Yes indeed, Magic NJE!

And do not come for vacation, either. They "give" you 22 days of vacation ayear but you cannot take much between 1st of May and end of OCtober. Theoretically limited to 10days but this year I had 5 + 2 week ends arounds! which is actually 4days of vacation if you consider we normally have 5days off between 2tours (another trick!!!!)
no seniority to improve it on top of that.
Pension is crucial but they don't care as they don't want you to stay more than 3-4years. BIG ISSUE.

[brit bus driver]

All very informative - thanks. One question; is there a salary increase based on seniority, or are you pegged at the advertised 95,000 Euros (for captains)? If there is an increase, could anyone advise as to what this would be.

Oh, and that 70 Euros a day.....would that be tax free? ;)

Cheers:}

[clanger32]

Sorry, only just read this forum as well - for those calling "Troll", please see....http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=288141

Already been picked up as a wind up merchant by OAT?

you decide....:bored:

[Scroll Lock]

Nimbus

I'm sorry but I don't think you are for real.

Comments like those you have posted lead me to believe that you are not interested at all in joining NJE. IF you have been awarded the Cadet Scheme and feel like you do, then don't bother. Why waste a spot that someone else may have given their eye teeth for.

We don't want your type. Obessive comments about a poxy €70. You seem to know nothing, say nothing, antagonise others.

So....I guess you are a either a mole sent by Lisbon, or a sad arse who is having a career crisis.
Stop wasting our time mate.
:zzz:

[Sterlingsky]

Clanger32 / Scroll Lock - I make no apologies for seeking the views of current serving netjets pilots before making the very important decision to commit to netjets.

[Adios]

Sterlingsky/Nimbus21

I find it interesting that you are worried what it might be like spending six days with one other NetJet pilot. (I think he may have expressed this concern in a different thread, so other readers forgive me for pointing out the irony of it here). I just wonder if you've given much thought to what the NetJet pilots reading your posts here might think about the prospect of spending six days traveling with you? :ugh: :mad: :eek:

Due diligence is fine to conduct, but I don't recall a single question that you phrased in such a way that makes me think you seek to learn something positive about NetJets. Do you assume you already know all the upside? Some of your questions have elicited both pros and cons, but all of them seem to be looking for hidden gotchas.

At some point you are going to have to end the risk analysis and make a decision and I wonder if decisiveness and commitment are not your strong points.

NetJets is a job, not a wife. If you don't like her after a few years, you can leave with no strings and all of your assets and "marry" another. You would not be the first serial monogamist in the industry.

A door of opportunity stands open before you that is better than most zero hour wannabes ever get a choice to walk through. Walk through it and all the others down the hall close, at least temporarily. Turn back from it and you will have to go through this same agonizing for any other doors that you come to later and even then you'll not know if the next one you pick is the best/right one. If you wait until you finish training to look for a job, you will probably only get one or two other choices, as there is no telling who will be hiring at that time, but the bank will be waiting. Maybe the devil you know now is better than one you don't know later.

Now walk those last few steps down the aisle and say "I will" (at least for a while) or turn around and leave the building, but quit asking all the guests if "she's the right one." It is really getting tedious and boring.

[falconbis]

Nimbus 21

for all i read from you above, it look to me that you don t have a large aviation background, and the fact that you found NJE deal interesting means that you are not working yet for a Company who provide proper working conditions...so I believe you are the kind of Pilot Netjets is employing right now. Apply you have a great chance to get in. :rolleyes:

[Scroll Lock]

Sterlinsky.....

Well, get off your fat arse, spend some money and go down to Lisbon to meet real people and mangement face to face.
Then you can ask your questions PRIVATELY.

:ugh:

[clanger32]

Sterlingsky/Nimbus/whatever flippin pseudonym you come up with today....I have no problem, absolutely no problem whatsoever, with you, or anyone else gaining all available information before making a choice. This is simply prudent.

However, there is more than a little irony in that you have been hauled over the coals by the OAT staff (an interesting choice - to p155 them off when if you take the NJE you'll be spending 15 months with them!) for using multiple identities, yet you have used yet another different one on PPRuNe, been called as the same person who has done this on the OAT forum and then registered another one anyway! Do you have some particular fetish for the sign up process for internet message boards?

That aside, I do think gaining all the information is the right thing to do. What gets me though is that when I went through the NJE process I did my research BEFORE I went to Lisbon, not when I was "sitting on an offer". I just find it very odd, indescribably odd in fact, that anyone seeking to enter the profession would rather be faced with a £60k bill, no guaranteed job and the possibility of having to pay your own TR, than accept a place on one of the very, very few cadet schemes that are around.

Edited to add:
I should also say, that in my eyes, you should be a bit careful - the game you are playing with your offer is very dangerous....If I were NJE top brass and read these forums I would be seriously looking at pulling your offer - I think it's obvious that you don't really want to work for them (in fairness, you've even fessed up to that on another thread). They don't need you as much as you need them, believe me there were a bunch of us rejected in Lisbon who would happily step up and take your seat...

[Scroll Lock]

Oh Clanger.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
If i was part of interviews for this lot, then I would definitely pull this tossers application.

[Smeagel]

Like a few in here I am convinced that Nimbuski is either on a mission to wind people up or is incredibly naieve.

I also find it amusing at the hissy fits thrown by the pro-NJE gang. Scroll Lock, you posit what it might be like to fly with someone like Nimbuski but given your apparent short fuse isn't that a bit pot/kettle? I'll bet I could accurately forecast what your topic of conversation would be within two minutes of climbing into the cockpit.

Go on.......have a guess:E

[Scroll Lock]

the price of eggs on the black market in iraq.

C'mon, dont go making this all personal again.
Besides, those days long over.

[Smeagel]

C'mon, dont go making this all personal again.

You're quite right Scroll Lock, I apologise. Getting personal is below the belt.

....this tosser...
I guess you are a............... sad arse

But you did rather set the tone old chum.

[brit bus driver]

Riveting though this witty badinage is, any chance someone could answer my genuine question?

All very informative - thanks. One question; is there a salary increase based on seniority, or are you pegged at the advertised 95,000 Euros (for captains)? If there is an increase, could anyone advise as to what this would be.

[request visual]

Each year your salary will be corrected with the inflation of Portugal. And after three years as a captain you receive a relatively small bonus, if profit has been made.
Cheers RV

[brit bus driver]

Thanks very much.

[L269G]

The five off sounds great until you realise that you will spend at least the first day home recovering, more like two. The last day off will be spent ramping up to go back to work so that really only gives a maxumum of three days to relax. Many, many other companies give even days on/off ie, 7/7, 14/14, month on/off etc.smeagel - there's a lot of good points in your posts but this one sounds weird to me.

Many airline pilots would give a lot for a roster like the one NJE offers.
I'm flying for a not-too-bad regional airline. As far as I kow you won't get 6-5 or anything close to it when doing airline-flying, at least as long as you don't go for long distance cargo ops. In this case you have to work at night. For the most airlines that I know you get 5-2 or maybe 5-3. Or, in my case, sometimes 6-2.

Only if you are lucky enough to live at the place where your airline uses to start and end their daily tours you can be better off. I had to move several times for my company, and each time it got worse, e.g. travelling to some city on day 1 and returning from another city on day 5 or 6. But then I got 2 days off, not 5 days. 2 days is good for repacking your stuff, sleep a bit and than say good bye to your family for the next 5 or 6 days. Medium and small airlines just won't give you the luxury of having certain bases where you can be sure of. In fact many small airlines change their bases according to market demands. And we as pilots then have the honour of telling our families its time to move once again. Or you don't move - and end up with self-financed 5 or 6 day-tours.

OK if you compare NJE with easyjet or LH or some other european mayor airlines I would also choose the airline. But for those airline pilots that didn't end up with the majors, NJE, especially their roster, sounds VERY VERY tempting. And the fact that moving around is finished, and you can live almost everywhere you want is worth much more than money can pay.

[ABO944]

Can anyone answer this question ...

I am hoping to work for NetJets Europe in the future.

I am planning to live in Portugal and have Lisboa as my gateway.

I am British, but would be moving over to Portugal for good, so would I be on one of these UK contracts I hear about (as i'm a Brit), or just a Portuguese one and just pay Portuguese tax ???

Cheers

:ok:

[EatMyShorts!]

As far as I understand you would be on a Portuguese contract, paying about 45% tax and social security.

[Smeagel]

smeagel - there's a lot of good points in your posts but this one sounds weird to me.

I know what you're saying but equal on/off time is quite common in the bizjet world (although unheard of in the airlines).

The rest of what I wrote is accurate. NJE can work you very hard. Five consecutive nights of minumum rest can be the norm as can be running out of duty time in five days.

If you find yourself on a non-apu aircraft you either cook or freeze depending upon the season. It's sapping, tiring work and you need time to recover.

On paper the roster looks better than an airline but believe me it takes a toll.

[L269G]

On paper the roster looks better than an airline but believe me it takes a toll.Smeagel- It's ugly to see illusions fade away. But I guess I start loosing interest in NJE after reading about your experience. Some other pilots mentioned similar things as you did. Probably the 5 days OFF really are some kind of painkiller.
The good thing about this is that the company I'm currently flying for doesn't look that bad anymore. Thanks..:)

[Stan Woolley]

I work for Ryanair a 5/4 work pattern with practically no night stops/positioning or all that other crap. Hard work when you're working but good time off and I make good money. Contractors do 5/5 too.

Can't remember my last roster change which is a huge issue for me.I like it quite a lot overall and can't think of a better deal here in the UK.:ok:

(I know a lot of people don't like Ryanair so don't tell me how awful they are - I've been around a while and worked for plenty so called good companies to compare so I really don't need to hear it thanks.)

[Smeagel]

I suppose compared to some of the bottom feeding companies who keep their crew on standby 24/7 and roster days off restrospectively NJE is a step up but for those who have been there more than a year or two without moving onto the larger cabin aircraft, it's hard work. Horses for courses.

Probably the 5 days OFF really are some kind of painkiller.
I suppose they are. Where it really begins to bite is when you are rostered less than five days off or are tempted to work extra days. I don't care how much they offer to do that, it's just not worth it.

[FourGreenNoRed]

Hey Schmuck, do you get a bonus / personal reward for every soul you convince not even trying to apply to work for NJE? You must be a rich dude then. We have appr. 700 Pilots, too bad that only the same frustrated Ex or Soon-to-be-Ex make business here :ugh:
The few who dare to oppose your wisdom do get written away with your tempting urge to sing out every piece of interna which comes to your ears. You are a star, you deserve to be on the cover.

[Smeagel]

Hey 4Green! Where you been hiding?:O Missed you and your sunny disposition.

Feel free to give the folks your version of the company, it's only fair. Some will choose to believe yours, some mine (and others) and the rest in between. Be boring if we were all the same, eh?

The difference between you and I is that I have no vested interest, I stand to gain nothing by telling people what I think of NJE and the situation regarding things like a contract that will rob some pilots of 90% of their pay.

Whereas you.................................., I'm sorry. Just what IS your role within the company? I'm sure you must have mentioned it before but it escapes me.

[FourGreenNoRed]

As you know, I dont oppose your Points of View, they got more ballanced lately, I think the sunny life outside NTA grooms some mildness in your razorsharp views. I am still criticizing your lack of confidentiality which I dont understand. Do personal matters from a FM really belong here? Or diciplinary matters involving crewmembers?

I realized that PPRUNE is not a good forum to get or send valuable information regarding NJE anymore since all of them are blown away by the same people over and over again. You have valuable points, I admire your deadication towards the company, although it has a very sharp minor coloratura, but it might show that you still care about the company more than most of the currently employed.

Whatever.

It is really too bad, that PPRUNE is not the forum it used to be, it would be so much more helpful if more Pilots would post, and do not turn away. Jetbl . . . PPRUNE all are dead for NJE information, only the same few people posting the same stuff over and over again, where are the other 680? Whats their opinion?

Come on guys: Post! Discuss! The forum is depending upon you. Its dead meat right now. Are you all too tired after the six demanding days to type a post? Spend all your recovery time with the tax-lawyer? Or wait for the forum to be ready soon in the intranet?

[thedeadseawasonlysick]

4Green, perhaps a very happy ex, not frustrated at all, could put his four pennyworth in.

The nice things about Netjets are the people you fly with (mostly), modern airframes ( luckily never had to fly one without an APU), and lots of interesting places to go.

Where to start on the bad things? Well, I didn't like carrying an ever increasing number of snags around until time can be found to go into maintenance. Always,"Just another couple of sectors." I especially didn't like being told I had to operate with an A/C I considered unserviceable. That can be fixed, however, by asking for a fax granting permission to fly, with a signature at the bottom. Funny how the A/C then becomes unserviceable!

I didn't like a Fleet Manager who couldn't have been more invisible if he'd been frozen to absolute zero. I didn't like having to find out operational and technical information whilst on recurrent, which should have been disseminated by the Fleet Office. I didn't like not having phone calls returned and emails not answered. Many of the Fleet Managers do a very good job. I just happened to have one that was useless.

I didn't like having to phone a dispatcher to get permission to do the most mundane thing, especially when the dispatcher has all of six months experience. And because of this lack of experience, the BOOK was rigidly adhered to, even when it was patently absurd. An example, one of many I could quote:
Me: We have a show time of half an hour before the airfield opens.
Dispatcher: I know, but you have passengers, so you have to show an hour and a half before T/O.
Me: But the airfield only opens an hour before departure.
Dis: I know, but you have passengers, so you have to show an hour and a half before T/O.
Repeated several times.
Me: What would you like me to do for the other half an hour?
Dis: Perhaps you could sit in the taxi outside the gates until they open!
Me: But that's stupid.
Dis: I know, but the last time I changed the showtime, I had a letter put on my file!
And so on, ad infinitem. How can you possibly expect staff to show initiative, if you punish them for doing so? I telephoned four managers and all claimed that they did not have the authority to change the show time. It's Company Policy. It's stupid, but it's Company Policy. What happened? We did what any self respecting crew would do. We had an extra half hour in bed. The taxi driver was somewhat miffed, however, at having to wait for us.

Netjets relies on the crew to reduce rest, to cut show times, to reduce turnarounds, to go the extra mile to keep the show on the road. And in the main, the crews are happy to help. God forbid, however, that the crew wants something in return or something goes wrong. Hardly have the engines been shut down before the Blackberry is ringing with a peremptory demand for reasons for the delay, diversion, etc. This after dispatch have been informed of late arrival of pax, bad weather, et al. Then there is the phone call," Hello, my friend". That was the phrase that always had me donning the tin hat. Whatever was arranged, extend for a day for a specific flight, reduce rest, split duty. Whatever the payback, when the time came to collect, it was always, "There's nothing here about that, or Nobody passed me any message, or That's against Company Policy".

I suppose the most frustrating thing about Netjets, is that it all could be so different. Get a decent set of managers in Lisbon, not just people who are playing the system to get a fleet change, give people the authority to use their initiative, reward good work and play it straight with the workforce. Not just the crews, but the whole workforce.

Won't happen of course.

Well I feel much better for that, even though the blood pressure has risen alarmingly.

Finally. How do you know when Lisbon is lying? Their lips are moving.
How do you know that for once the're telling the truth? When you see their hearse go by.

[FourGreenNoRed]

Oh I know excactly what you are talking about. Some of the things are so dump, they qualify for a good lough at the bar at night rather than to be taken serious. However drop by drop cause frustration. From knowing all the real dark times I have to say, that the steps are small but the monster moves. There are new people in charge in key departments like HR which make a diffrence. The new "DM" is listening and receptive to everybody bringing a qualified view. The FltOps established a SOF which filters the BS before its hits the crew and makes a difference, a new scheduling policy will be out soon to cover turnarounds and show-goes in a way that they become a part of the OM and are not deductable anymore.

Small steps which come toooooo late to avoid good people from leaving.

Sorry to get your bloodpressure rising, not worth it but well received.

[Smeagel]

Ok, not a rant or quest for an argument but some honest answers then. Here we go:

I think the sunny life outside NTA grooms some mildness in your razorsharp views.
True. Which should tell you something about how life inside NJE can grind you down.

I am still criticizing your lack of confidentiality which I dont understand.
A contract is a two-sided thing. NJE broke it long ago when they cut pay, changed terms and conditions etc without consultation. I fail to see why I should honour a contract when they do not. Had they treated me and others decently, as professionals, as a person and with respect I would not need a written contract to keep me quiet. I would do so as a matter of principle. Sadly NJE don't have principles or a conscience so they can hardly complain when they get some of their own medicine, can they?

Come on guys: Post! Discuss! The forum is depending upon you.
I agree. You need more people talking about what is affecting you but the problem is they are scared. You have your own, independent crew forum elsewhere yet the management lackey on the indoc tells new hires (falsely) that NJE management have access there and can identify them. No way then that they'll risk airing their views out here in public. As for using the intranet forum, no chance. Who in their right mind is going to complain about the company in a forum that really is run by the company?

There are (proportionately) more people in NJE (sorry, NTAS) who are relatively new hires looking to upgrade so keep their mouths shut. You hear the same talk from them as I do in the fbo's, restaurants and bars. They don't like the way they are treated but will tolerate it "...just a little longer.....just until I get my command.....maybe I'll get on the 7X........or the Gulfstream....".

What does this tell you about your management*? They have to lie and intimidate their employees because they fear what might happen if (when) you all become organised. You had the benefit of the wisdom and experience of the Teamsters union who came over from the US and told you how the parent company operates and the union busting tactics they employ. Almost all of these tactics have been used by NJE so why, why oh why do most of you not believe that you are being played? Basically, you blew it.

It's just so bloody frustrating. You have some excellent people but the little Napoleons protecting their mini empires in Lisbon won't put them to use for fear of their own inadequacies being held up to the light. For the same reasons they refuse to remove the incompetents. The whole place is as big a shambles as it ever was if not more so. Every so often they invent another management post or department that never solves anything but just wastes more money.

This hardly raises my blood pressure at all these days. It just saddens me to think what could have been and the people sacrificed in their failed attempts to achieve it.
(*Mainly upper management.)

[FourGreenNoRed]

I am not aware of the management tracking the sources of whatever kind of Forum Posts here or anywhere else. A certain value in confidentiality or loyality is to be expected from every employee. Wherever you work. Being reminded about it doesnt make me nervous. Singing out things which are company interna is a punishible act especially with NJE since most of our customers rely on this. There life is endangered if certain information is revealed. Agreed, its a thin line.

Open Communication is promoted and executed from the High-End to the very bottom lately and a trace of the functionality is your knowledge of the company although you are not employed with NTA anymore.
Its a long and stony way after having the excact opposite for too long. People being afraid of speaking up because they know they will be punished if cought. Those times are gone although some of the creeps are still around.

Crew News, Safety-Letters, Mandatory FM-Info-Mails, GRT sessions, Crew Forum . . .

All not perfect yet and some of the little caesars have to move on, but this is just a matter of time. I rather fear the classic leaders out of the fancy business schools are taking over too much.

Lets wait and see, its a wide open market and everyone is free to move.

[Flintstone]

Just one point 4Green.

There is one person in Lisbon who is tasked with logging in to the crew forum on JB every day and reporting back to her managers (Hi Ana! Bom dia:ok:). On more than one occasion printed pages from that forum have been handed out during meetings there.

I know this because I was one of the people who created that forum. As you are no doubt aware the administrators of such sites can see who logs in, when they logged in, which topics they examined and their real identities.

As the forum was invented as a way of communicating with management we should hardly be disappointed that they are using it. A shame they do it in such an underhand way though and it's one-way traffic.

Oh, and to clarify. It is a secure site so despite what one of the creeps tells new hires on the indoc course your company cannot identify any users. (You would be surprised at some of the people who do use it though and some of the things they post).

[FourGreenNoRed]

Good morning Flinstone. This was an agreed upon procedure which is of no intrest anymore, since JB is the most boring forum there is. The same people posting the same stuff all over again. It has no value because its a dead source.
This Com-Flow is obsolete since the overall company culture regarding this has changed.
Of course there might be a few from the Management who read this, but the guidelines changed, the sources promoted to be direct and open.
Not too succesful yet, since most people are still feared to death. Takes some time to get this out.

There are new people in charge in London about internal comunication and poor A can concentrate on her duties in Lisboa.
It takes some time as said before and the promotion of the future forum is has not yet to be started.
As you know Crew News post Crewmembers postings with the respective answers from the management. It is accepted, with real names and already with a wider variety than JB.
Its a start.

[Flintstone]

Both Lisbon and the London offices pay very close attention to what is written on JB. The log-in records do not lie. It may bore you but others disagree and continue to use it. Maybe if someone such as yourself had made the effort you could have created something far more stimulating.:rolleyes:

Your management admitted that the JB forum made them aware of just how poorly they communicate with the crew. Why do you think they are now setting up their own one? Only ten years since the company started, mind. Do not underestimate the influence of what is written there, it is the only place NTAS employees have to communicate among themselves without being identified.

I'm sure such behaviour is beneath you so no doubt when a union is chosen and improved terms and conditions negotiated you will be among the first to refuse to accept your pay rise.

[L269G]

A contract is a two-sided thing. NJE broke it long ago when they cut pay, changed terms and conditions etc without consultation.Read about that a lot. But still don't understand it . A contract is a contract. At least in those countries I used to pay taxes an employer can't just change the conditions except the company is able to prove it is absolutely necessary in order to stay in business. Don't need a union to make a contract something to rely on. But if what you are saying is right I wonder if there is anything left to rely on at all. Probably not.

[Smeagel]

There is much dispute over many things that are said and written about Netjets Europe.

One thing that is never denied by anyone however is that the company changes parts of or even the whole contract when they wish. In fact they are in the process of doing so again.

As others have said the crew have been given deadlines (Sept-Oct) to sign this new document. If they do not? Who knows? The French pilots retained a lawyer to speak to the company on their behalf as this new contract seriously reduces their income. The Director of Operations told the lawyer the company were not concerned about losing a large number of pilots as they had recruited sufficient extra in advance to cover resignations.

If anyone still doubts NJE's methods this cynical planning should speak volumes.

[Alphafloor75]

Is it possible to know why this new contract would have a special prejudice for french pilots?