Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike

[CaptKremin]

OFFICIAL: Aer Lingus pilots on strike from midnight Tuesday next - mandatory notice precludes earlier action.

[The Hedge]

From the Irish Times (www.ireland.com)


Pilots to strike over Belfast move

Aer Lingus pilots are to strike for 48 hours next week, claiming that a move to the airline's new hub in Belfast will see them employed on less favourable terms and conditions than they have in Dublin.

In a statement this evening, the Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) branch of the Impact trade union said 480 pilots in its membership will strike on Tuesday August 21 st and Wednesday 22 nd .

The move is likely to cause widespread disruption to transport in and out of Ireland if it goes ahead.

"The strike has been called in response to Aer Lingus proposals to employ pilots at its new Belfast base on pay and terms and conditions of employment that are less favourable than at the existing Aer Lingus base in Dublin," the statement said.

"The pilot positions were advertised on the airline's website today and the company has confirmed to the union that it does not intend to honour existing collective agreements for pilots based in Belfast."

Pilots met at Dublin Airport this evening to discuss the new terms and conditions.

IALPA president, Captain Evan Cullen said that the move by Aer Lingus was "a flagrant breach of its collective agreements and of solemn commitments made by the airline to its employees in advance of last year's stock market flotation".

In a statement he added: "We are not going to allow Aer Lingus treat its Belfast based pilots as 2nd class citizens who can be paid less and treated worse than their colleagues in Dublin. Aer Lingus has freely entered into collective agreements that cover all pilots employed by the airline and we just want the company to honour its commitments."

[Cuillin]

"We are not going to allow Aer Lingus treat its Belfast based pilots as 2nd class citizens who can be paid less and treated worse than their colleagues in Dublin."

A shame that the KLM pilots didn't have the same willpower in respect of their British (ex KLMuk) based pilots.
Best of luck to the Shamrock crews.

[pfighter]

hi all ,first post ,support ye 100%
ps / it is tuesday at midnight as i m going to amsterdam tuesday morning from cork . up the rebel county

[Bearcat]

what Aer Lingus is trying to do is dis mantle the union.....dismantle set agreements they signed up to.....dismantle collective agreements they signed upto under due process......Mr Mannion is either very sharp or very stupid doing this.


It effects all of us in the industry as if AL push this thru say GOOD BYE to BALPA, IALPA and all pilot unions that represent their members.

IALPA have played within the scope of their remit, AL are just trying to sh"t all over them.....

[mini]

From the outside looking in:

An airline is opening a new base in a different country with T&C's matching local rates.

The home base pilots are protesting that the new hires won't get the same T&C's as they do.

For the benefit of me and no doubt others reading this can someone explain what is actually the issue here? and what grounds the strike is going ahead on?

What's the story with FR for eg and their many bases, do they have similar T&C's ?

[curser]

mini, it is exactly the FR model that is to be avoided. Pilots must not out bid each other in a race to the bottom. FR is the unhappy place to work that it is precisely because with each new base T&C'c became worse.

[Headinclouds]

I could be wrong, but didnt the shamrock pilots already sell out to management allowing newjoiners to start on different T&c's?

[PAXboy]

mini FR is not a comparison, as they are not unionised, so they can pay what they can get people to accept at whichever base they choose.

[click]

One company, one seniority list, one contract. No exceptions. What the company's doing is getting the pilots to subsidize the opening of a new base....what a deal! Aer Lingus management seems to be not only smoking the wacky tobbacy but they are inhaling as well. Go Evan!:ok:

[mini]

Guys, I'm not taking sides here, just looking for the valid rationale behind the strike...

In these times unless EI has broken a binding agreement of some kind the strike will get hammered in the courts...

I think this will be viewed by Joe Soap Traveller (who doesn't care) as an emotional knee jerk reaction to the Shannon pullout.

If EI has broken an agreement surely the courts are the place to settle it?

What's the agenda?

Your average travelling guy still equates EI with DUB... more hassle can only reduce public sympathy surely?

FR are competitors therefore their T&C's are valid comparison in terms of cost base.

Capitalism sucks :*

[Mooney12]

I support this strike 100%. There is absolutely no reason why the BFS based pilots should get less. Belfast is not cheap these days either.

Well done to the AL pilots and good luck.

ps. FR have done enough to ruin this profession as it is, AL should not be benchmarked against them

[the grim repa]

well done top you all.respect!

[heidelberg]

A 'swift and solid response' in this instance amounts to shooting yourself in both feet. Why? Because the strike is against yourself as a shareholder!
O'Leary and company in Ryanair must be laughing all the way to higher profits at AL's and its employees (also shareholders) expense!
Cop on guys and gals and call off the 48 hour strike before it's too late.
Sit down with AL management and hammer out a meaningful agreement which will result in a lower cost base and which might raise a few eye brows elsewhere including Ryanair.
Meanwhile I must log on to FR's site and book those Manchester flights in Sept because I cannot rely on AL to deliver. Pity because I believe in competition.
Then again only for the competiton between FR and AL I would still be paying a fortune to AL like I used to 15 years ago.
Remember those years when it cost 250 Punts/330 Euro for flights between Irish and British Airports.
Did IALPA consider 48 hour strikes in those years because AL would not consider lower fares? Like hell they did because those were the years when Aer Lingus staff at all levels milked the passenger as much as possible with the connivance of the various Governments.
Despite all the criticism of MOL/Ryanair it was not until his/their arrival that AL went part of the way under Willie Walsh and became somewhat more competitive.
Mannion is trying to move all the AL staff along the competitve road but of course the various unions and staff at AL don't want to know. A lot has changed but not enough.
When will the Unions and AL Staff cop on to the reality of the situation as it is now and accept that the way forward is sitting down with AL management and agree to new more competitive work practices before it's too late - again!

[fortuna76]

It is refreshing to see pilots stick together on this one. Not just interested in there own conditions, but in that of the whole group. Solidarity will benefit the mayority in the end, and that is what counts. I support this and hope we will see more in the future. :ok:

[Bad Robot]

The info I have for Dub crews (maybe outdated) is 92K for Captains and 57K for F/O's. Anyone confirm or deny this?

BR.

[top jock]

Got this on PPJN.

Brief Payscale(please ignore if the detailed payscale above is up to date)last update
Capt top€176,306 (yr28)+ €79 over 520pa 21/Feb/06 Capt base€91,984 + €75 over 520pa 21/Feb/06
FO top €121,602 (yr28)+ €55 over 502pa 21/Feb/06 FO baseE57,032 (year 1) 28/May/07 SO top

SO base
FE top
FE base
submit new information (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/select.php?id=e00a30hr6twnjuf08bamh32j6arsq61uxrvney08chmj2q 6yr46)
Flight Pay / Per Diemlast update
Capt17 UK, 25 Eur, 92 US East, 130 US West 29/May/05
FO17 / 25 / 92 /130 29/May/05
SO
FE
submit new information (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/select.php?id=e00a30hr6twnjuf08bamh32j6arsq61uxrvney08chmj2q 6yr46)
Pension Detailslast update
Final Salary Scheme. Employee contribution 7%. Company contribution 21%. 21/Feb/06
submit new information (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/select.php?id=e00a30hr6twnjuf08bamh32j6arsq61uxrvney08chmj2q 6yr46)
Conditionslast update
Roster5 on / 3 off / 5 on / 2 off 11/May/07
Leave44 days year 1 51 days year 20 28/May/07
Staff travelYes - STBY only
Discounted holidaysNo
submit new information (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/select.php?id=e00a30hr6twnjuf08bamh32j6arsq61uxrvney08chmj2q 6yr46)

[Mooney12]

Aer lingus can still be competitive and offer cheap flights to the UK. Offering 30 new pilots at BFS the same as their Dublin counterparts is not going to change that!

This move is about splitting the pilot's union and creating a base with no career opportunities within Aer Lingus. It treats BFS as second class citizen's not worthy of as much pay as Dublin. I find it highly offensive.

The company should be brought to it's knee's over this

[Headinclouds]

Things are changing, This not a semi-state anymore, all decisions need to be in the interest of shareholders........It would appear EI Pilots are paid well above market rate.......what do you expect from an ever evolving industry, where the emphasis is on reduciing costs and increasing productivity....?

The Good days are over.........for EI pilots.....

[cpart2]

Well done, i'm 100% behind you.....:D

[punchus]

Dear Headinclouds,
Things are changing, This not a semi-state anymore, all decisions need to be in the interest of shareholders........It would appear EI Pilots are paid well above market rate.......what do you expect from an ever evolving industry, where the emphasis is on reduciing costs and increasing productivity....?
The Good days are over.........for EI pilots.....
What a suitable name!!:ugh: Enough said.
Perhaps if we all defended ourselves more in the past we wouldn't constantly find ourselves defending our careers against others, in a constant erosion of working conditions as benchmarked against each other.
No-one is going to stand up for you if you don't stand up for yourself!!
Bring it on!

[Che Guevara]

Good luck EI pilots!
You are 100% right. One of the reasons our profession is in the state it is worldwide is simply because over the years, nobody stood together and said NO.

Vamos! :ok:

[MarkD]

EI management have severely mishandled this. By underestimating the will of their employees, they will probably lose as much in turnover and future customer goodwill as they would have saved in pilot remuneration. Michael O'Leary's EGM call re:Shannon would have probably prompted a management threat to walk but with this looming the other shareholders might tell them "there's the door".

[curser]

asfkap, the pilots have an agreement called scope which covers who can fly our aircraft and from where. We have given up many things over the years in its defense because we felt it was the jewel in our ir crown. Now the management of Aer Lingus have decided to take all we gave up and circumvent scope with these new hire pilots. The engineers and cabin crew union chose to peruse a different course consequently the new base does not conflict with any of their collective agreements. This is why we are up in arms and the others are not.
Headincloads, I assume you are out to rattle the cage but you do bring up a point thats worth getting straight. Aer Lingus pilots work as hard as any in Europe typically 850 flight hours a year, most will during the course of the year be required to stand down to avoid exceeding state legal limits. Our package is commensurate with this level of productivity and if MOL is to believed in his interview on newstalk106 below FR.

[irish330]

I'm in full support of the pilots strike action, but when the rest of us in EI are getting dumped on by the managment no one sticks together. It should be a full company strike in support of our friends and colleagues in Shannon, some of us seem to be forgetting about them in my view.
One more point the Enigneers in EI work dame hard and consently goes unnoticed. :ugh:
I'll finish by saying one more time 'we all need to stick together, Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew, Groundstaff etc'

[INLAK]

I could be wrong, but didnt the shamrock pilots already sell out to management allowing newjoiners to start on different T&c's?
Management tried to enforce new T&C`s on the recently hired guys, but IALPA successfully managed to change this.
One company, one seniority list, one contract.......the way it is, and the way it should stay.

[Headinclouds]

'Management tried to enforce new T&C`s on the recently hired guys, but IALPA successfully managed to change this.
One company, one seniority list, one contract.......the way it is, and the way it should stay'

INLAK: I think you may find by comparing an old and new Contract that these ARE Different.......

[CaptKremin]

I have to say Mannion certainly came out fighting and probably won the hearts and minds of Joe Public, it also didn't hurt him that he got to speak after the Landers who then didn't have the opportunity to come back and refute or counter any of his claims.
I just listened to the archived broadcast. Or at least, I think it was the same one ASKAP referred to, because I don't recognise his take on it.

Mr.Landers came over calm and collected, and politely laid out his points, which were quite illuminating re Aer Lingus' misinformation agenda.

Then Mr.Mannion came on - and he sounded like a man on the verge of losing it. He barked at the interviewer, shouted over her attempts to extract answers, and generally sounded as if he was about to have a minor coronary.
Not professional, not convincing.
Lets face it though - the poor man is Public Enemy Number One at the moment. The strain is clearly taking its toll.:rolleyes:

What fascinates me is that he's either an actor of DeNiro's abilities, or he truly didn't realise the impact (ooeerrr) his latest bumblings would bring down on his head. In which case, the company is being run by a nincompoop.

[VORTIME]

This union lark sickens me.

It's simple. If you like the deal AL offer, fly for them. If you're under paid, that must mean someone is willing to offer YOU more. So move to the company who is willing to offer more. If this company doesn't exist, sit down, shut up and stop acting like left wing civil service monkeys.

Unions are gone, as is flying being a top end job. Do finance if you want money...

You have no support from the Irish public.

VT

[The Hedge]

VORTIME.

Not going to bite:=

Stick to GA mate

[Green Army]

Well Done THE HEDGE!!:D

Dutch PM

[Bad Robot]

"It would appear EI Pilots are paid well above market rate."

Er... I don't think so, the Basic is way short if the above post, #21, by Top Jock is anything to go by, certainly not by UK standards anyway. Just take a look at the other UK operators on PPJN and I think you will find that EI fall way short of the mark on basic salary once you do a Euro/Sterling conversion. Unless the figures quoted are NOT what you guys are really getting? If this is the case, then, could some one from EI post the actual figures?

What are the proposed Salaries / T's & C's for the BFS Pilots?

Thanks.



BR.

[Green Army]

What are the proposed Salaries / T's & C's for the BFS Pilots?


Yes that would be most helpful in this thread. Come up with some numbers from both Dublin based newbies and Belfast Newbies. Please from somebody who actually knows from within!:ugh:

Dutch MP

[mill island]

i see IFALPA have joined the row.....http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitmentban/08IND016%20Request%20for%20Mutual%20Assistance%20Request%20I ALPA%20(Ireland).pdf
does any one know what this means to wannabee green bus drivers???

[Seat1APlease]

You have always to think one step ahead of the other side in this game.


If they can establish a cheap base then the next step will be to have crews doing trips like bfs-man-dub-fra-dub-european nightstop-dub-fra-dub-man-bfs.


You either have an agreement and enforce it or get ready for the broom handle and just hope you don't get the broom head as well.

[hushkit77]

Belfast is not cheap these days either.


Very true. From the paper today:

Average house prices for:

Northern Ireland £240,302
England £221,370
Scotland £165,363
Wales £165,119

not sure how the Republic stands

[CaptKremin]

'Fraid not ASKAP.
Read it and weep.


The average price paid for a house nationally (ROI) in May 2007 was €304,166.
Source: FinFacts.ie (http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/irelandhouseprices.htm)


Average price in ROI = €304,166 = 206,465 GBP

Average price in NI = 240,302 GBP

The average ROI house is 33,837 GBP ( 49,864.13 euro) cheaper than NI.
Or to put it another way, the NI house is 16.5% more expensive.:=

[wingman863]

On a side note, I'm due to fly to geneva on the 23rd. Will DUB be complete mayhem on that day (the day right after 2 days of striking) if the industrial action isn't avoided? Will I get to fly?

[trustno1]

Clever move by MOL today. All eyes will be on the Govt appointed Directors to see how they vote. The Govt cannot sit on the fence on this one. One things has me scratching my head though. If the Board wasn't informed prior to EI announcing the BFS/SNN moves...then why is the Minister for Transport asking Dermot Mannion and John Sharman (Chairman) to visit business leaders in the West and explain their decision. If the Board weren't consulted...what's the point of the John Sharman tagging along.

On a matter of Good Corporate Governance...I would love to know the answer to this question. Has the Board delegated authority for strategic investment decisions to the Executive Management Team. Strategy defined simply is...Where is the business trying to get to in the long-term (direction). This is something that the Board should be interested in and consulted about. If the Board isn't doing this then it should be sacked. However if the Executive Management Team decided themselves without consulting the Board...well you would have to call into question the Executive Management Team's actions.

[MarkD]

trustno1 - do you think the FR board approves everything MOL does?

[ItsAjob]

It is a shame to see the fat cat management driving Irelands national flag carrier into the ground for the sake of their bonuses.
In the long term does Ireland really want to see their Airline turn into a discrace like Ryanair ?

[trustno1]

MarkD..if you don't mind can we keep this discussion to EI matters.

If you take a look at the Aer Lingus website under Investor Relations and then click on Corporate Governance you will read this.

The company is committed to maintaining the highest standards of corporate governance and the directors recognise their accountability to the company's shareholders in this regard. This statement describes how the principles of corporate governance are applied to the company and the company's compliance with the code provisions as set out in Section 1 of the Combined Code.

Do a serach for the Combined Code and you will find this.

A. DIRECTORS
A.1 The Board
Main Principle
Every company should be headed by an effective board, which is
collectively responsible for the success of the company.

Supporting Principles
The board’s role is to provide entrepreneurial leadership of the company
within a framework of prudent and effective controls which enables risk to
be assessed and managed. The board should set the company’s strategic
aims, ensure that the necessary financial and human resources are in
place for the company to meet its objectives and review management
performance. The board should set the company’s values and standards
and ensure that its obligations to its shareholders and others are
understood and met.

My question was purely related to good Corporate Governance and it relates to Board oversight of the business. 3 questions which need answers.
1) Was the Board doing it's what its supposed to be doing.
2) Was the Executive Management Team acting within delegated authority in respect of strategic decisions.
3) If the Board was not informed collectively...who was informed individually?

[trustno1]

Powerless...probably too strong a word. However the Combined Code does states the following:
All directors must take decisions objectively in the interests of the
company.
I am not questioning this...I would just like to know if the Board was consulted, when it was consulted, how it was consulted...or whether if the Board wasn't consulted...Did the Executive Management Team act within its delegated authority.

[CaptKremin]

I didn't say anything about the "average price" of a house in the ROI, I was talking about the "price" of a house in Dublin, my own house in fact You're having a laugh right? Your own house? Can't see the relevance mate!

Surely nobody is that dumb they can't grasp the concept of the word average?

Ah sure, lets carry on playing your wee game.

But seeing as you brought it up, it might be more accurate to show the average price of a house in 'Dublin' rather than the price of a house in the ROI as a whole because anyone working for Aer Lingus are more likely to live in Dublin (because thats where the airport is).

You wouldn't be trying to pull one over by comparing specific areas in the ROI with average values across NI, eh?
Noooo, not so fast you don't. := :E

See, if you want to get into specifics, what you need to do is compare specifics! Apples with Apples and all that old boy, know what I mean?

Let me illuminate you further my fuzzy friend. Are you ready?
Here goes....

Average Belfast House Price = 331,214 GBP (source: BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region11.stm?d))

SORT BY: NAMEAV PRICE (£) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region11.stm?d)QUARTER (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region11.stm?dq)ANNUAL (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region11.stm?da)SALES (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region11.stm?ds)

£389,289N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)North Down (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95w.stm)
£337,642N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)Coleraine/ Limavady/ North Coast (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95c.stm)
£334,413N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)

Belfast (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95z.stm) £331,214

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95r.stm)
£317,141N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)Antrim/ Ballymena (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95t_ab.stm)
£295,227N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)Craigavon/ Armagh (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95o.stm)
£291,584N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)East Antrim (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95t_ea.stm)
£291,400N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)Mid Ulster (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95t.stm)
£274,950N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)Londonderry/ Strabane (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95j.stm)
£258,359N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)Enniskillen/ Fermanagh/ S. Tyrone (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/counties/html/county95l.stm)
£253,000N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)N/A (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3631727.stm#na)http://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif

I'll help you out a bit now and convert that to euro for ya.;)

It's 488,633.69 euro.
Which is 64,000 euro more than the Dublin price (€424,631).

Or 15% more expensive in Belfast if you prefer.

By the way - we're talking 'average' house here, not a secluded 4 bed detached on the Malone Road (where I'm certain all the new ALT Belfast based pilots would like to live, but never will on Mannions 'loser-rate' salary).

Are you catching on to this concept of averages yet? Even you can do it if you really try. :ugh:

Maybe this is some kind of ROI snobbery actually? You seem to think the poor sods up North are all living in two a penny slums, compared to 'your house' in Dublin. Wake up and smell the coffee mate, NI is no impoverished knackerland, peopled with beggars and losers who are only too happy to scramble for the crumbs that fall off the Republics table, as you seem to believe.
I can sense Belfast hackles rising - and you don't want that, believe me you don't.:suspect:

[VORTIME]

Am I missing the point here: you want to link your income to house prices?

We now have HPI deflation so not a good arguement unless you want salary deflation.

Now go back to work so I can catch my flights next week (on Wed unfortunately)...

Btw... why has this thread slowly moved towards the Shannon issue? You guys don't care about Belfast at all - you just want to "get even" with management.

btw... did you ever find it strange how pilots always think management is stupid. Then a pilot became management, so he became stupid too...keep away from MBA's folks, ye might end up understanding business rather than rosy flying jobs.

Attack me all you wish, I suspect you'll move to defensive mode now...

VT

[CaptKremin]

Am I missing the point here: you want to link your income to house prices?

Err, no actually.
It was yer mate ASSWAP who first raised it as a comparator.
I think its all a bit academic really.

I think he'll drop it now and run since its proven to be a losing gambit.

I can see you aren't backing that loser. So whats your angle then?
Take your best shot.:hmm:

Oh, wait, its just the time honoured "Shut up and do as you're told 'cos you don't understand the divine intricacies of 'management" gambit?
I see.

NEXT.....

[mini]

mini has roots both sides of the "Border"

His Brother in Law bought a 3 bed terraced in Portadown 15 months ago for 56K ...sold it recentely for 120K... with no mods, show me that in Dublin.

Still think the strike is a hiding to nothing though...

[PAXboy]

Mooney12The company should be brought to it's knee's over thisAs a mere pax may I ask:
If the company is brought to it's knees - how will it ever get up to continue being an employer of anyone?
Since your message header states that your location is 'Norwich' are you a shareholder and/or employee of this Dublin based company?

I only ask, as it is slightly easier to call for a company to 'be brought to it's knees' if you are not going to be be directly affected by the actions you are calling for.

[CaptKremin]

Yes, I happen to agree with you PAXboy.
Mooney12 - wise up!
I'm damn sure that every ALT pilot wants to see the company growing and prospering. The Belfast base is a brilliant idea, and it should be followed by a Manchester base, a Madrid base, a Prague base, and ever onward. But NOT on Mannions scummy 'take-it-or-leave-it' terms.

[liffy2A]

Fair play EI pilots, I'm 100% behind your decision. Pprune wouldnt have as many bitchy post about other airlines if they were all like you standing together. AL is a career airline and I hope it always will be, this is why so many want to join. Its not a stepping stone like 95% out there.:D Hope all is settled soon with as little disruption as possible.
P.s. I dont care about house prices, If everyone keeps undercutting the industry 10yrs time we'll all be living in shoes and it will be the least of our worries!

[Le Rocket]

OK People, let's look at this from the real world please.
Aerlingus floats and DM heads off on holidays...mmm! Two days later, there's a hostile bid for AerLingus and golden boy is on the beach. The share price is down to 242 and two recent vital decisions on the future of the company have been made with absolutely no major shareholder approval or mandate!

Now for all you ignorant wannabees out there, get the facts before you start to leap. Imagine I've been a Captain in Aerlingus for the last few years and dedicated my life to the airline, good times and bad. I'm from Belfast or the like and think that this might me a good opportunity for me to return home to the ole alma mater. This man is telling me that I have to resign my job, give up all I've worked for and attend assessment for Belfast..I don't think so! If I'm an F/O with 8 years experience, shouldn't I be given the option of going to BFS, or any other base for my command if there are vacancies? Isn't that progressive? Yeah, forget about me too, I don't mind if I'm walked all over, and my loyalty quashed..!

T & C's can work across the board. Look at easyJet, they hire people all over Europe on the same contract, and let them decide where they want to go. If the base is available they go, if not they wait. There are no bully boy tactics and the process is fair and transparent. This is merely a smokescreen for a greedy CEO's personal agenda, who thinks that loyal workers throughout the airline can be walked on...well they can't!

Sorry, DM you're no Michael O'Leary.

P.S Should have gone to specsavers

[chec tunset]

Gonna have to burst your bubble on some of that le rocket. Easyjet are not employing people on the same contracts across Europe. Spain has a different contract which Balpa have been fighting since inception. They are about to impose a new one in France and have indicated that this is they way they will go in future. Basically their European operation is a mess contractually as are the tax issues.
Now when it comes to Aer Lingus, I applaude the solidarity shown by the union membership. If Easyjet's members had the same bottle they would be getting much further on pay and conditions. EI's BFS plan however will be complicated by FEC legislation and you can be sure that a deal must've been done with the Assembly for them to openly endorse it. That is where the simplicity of promoting SFO's to BFS as Captains falls down.
If Capts are going to be paid the 76K quoted this morning then they are pitching in at the upper level you could expect in BFS. I'm wondering where the sting is? I have a hunch it's pension. Would it not be better to see exactly what these new Terms are first before going on a 2 day strike?
Clearly the employment law in Ireland differs widely from that in the UK as any union playing that card in the same fashion would find itself bankrupt very quickly. Sad but true. This just goes to highlight the fact that although BFS is only up the motorway, working life can be very different.
I hope both sides in this argument can reach a suitable compromise. Even Paisley and McGuinness talk these days.

[fmgs]

So, does anyone have the T's & C's and salary being offered by EI for BFS?

It's just that I need a good laugh :E

[OneWorld22]

MOL is right. AL pilots are a load of headbangers, Imagine Unions and workers thinking they have jurisdiction over terms and conditions in other countries?

This is ridiculous, T's and C's will be different from market to market and will depend on local market conditions. AL management totally have the right to alter those conditions when setting up a base in another jurisdiction,especially in another country.

This is shameful action and yet again it's the public who will suffer. Imagine a group of shareholders deliberately setting bout to damage their own company? GUBU at it's finest.

[waffler]

To all the spotters; this is a professional pilots forum, not all things that are known are posted here for your entertainment.Please keep your ill informed comments to yourselves.

[OneWorld22]

This is not a closed forum Waffler and is open to everybody registered with PPRuNe and you are not a moderator. So quit the policing.

[curser]

oneworld22, come now, don't start acting the voice of moderation your opening line was to call us head bangers you were deliberately trying to provoke the reaction you got. You are aghast at a union thinking it has jurisdiction over foreign T&C's and yet had you bothered to get informed you might have realized we have just such an agreement. IALPA is and has always been ready to negotiate a new deal however DM and his team have decided to bypass all that. Yes we are share holders which should show you how seriously we take this move by DM. Perhaps you might now stop calling us names and if you are indeed a aviation consultant bring something new and constructive to this discussion.

[jonjoe]

oneworld22.
thankyou for your insulting comment to the Aerlingus pilots. you have obviously been following this issue closely, and have come to this informed viewpoint.

Back to the main issue. This is about enforcing mutually agreed work practice, and job security agreements. These agreements already exist, and management have chosen to set them aside when setting up the Belfast base. It is about protecting the jobs and careers of pilots already employed by Aer lingus, as well as the new pilots to be based in Belfast. Going on strike is the last option available, as management have gone ahead with recruitment without any discussion or agreeement in place.

[Headinclouds]

So who actually believes that this strike will achieve anything? and what exact result, are the EI Flightdeck looking for?

(By the Way No-one has still comfirmed if the 'NEWJOINERS' are on the 'Same' Contract yet? )

[alibaba]

It does get a little alarming when you see so many spotters and weekend warriors coming on this forum calling "professional pilots" no less on a forum titled "professional pilots rumour network" this; "pilots are a load of headbangers".

Erm, I think you might be the head banger mate. Do you not see the stupidity of your post in light of where you are posting it? ;)

I am sure you would not want the pilot in charge of your safety being a head banger would you?

I think shareholders, management, spotters and pax do not quite understand the professional life of many pilots. It might be ok for you to work 9-5 mon to fri then enjoy your weekend flying or getting a city break or even going to Thailand for a week or two then come on here and spout off whatever you think is ok. But many pilots on here are trying to save this profession from going down the toilet not so that you can go to Spain for a fiver. Because you start paying a fiver and you will get five pounds worth of service and standards will deteriorate on all fronts.

More and more individuals are shunning pilot training because of the initial costs and the deteriorating T+C's for professional pilots. Trying to get pilots to undercut each other is an abysmal business strategy and will lead to a gradual decrease in standards as it does in any other industry. If you don't want to pay the standard of pay to pilots you are going to get the best and brightest individuals shunning this industry which is going to lead to a decrease in talent or brain drain.

When are people going to understand that you have to pay for quality individuals who are going to pilot aeroplanes to a high professional standard.

Well done to the EI pilots who are setting their line in the sand on a blatant attack on their own T+C's and an attack on all professional pilots T+C's throughout Europe! You have the utmost respect and support from your fellow colleagues. :ok:

[VORTIME]

Isn't it strange how some posters here have adapted the attitude: "support us or get off the forum"

DM is going to try and break the union like WW did. I've great respect for all the AL pilots I know but for shareholder interest will always come first and your benefit from the reduced terms up north in terms of cap app on the share price.

Besides, expect a few hundred lay offs within 3 years. The Irish economy is tanking faster than any of you realise.

I'm not trying to be negative - but unions will cause more lay offs as a long term average because of labour rigidity, they will normally however benefit you in the short-run.

If you don't believe me, check the house completions data out from AIB today and apply the mulitplier effect to the 2007 GNP loss from debt-deflation that will start shortly, then look at the impact of the USD on the Irish subsidaries doing quasi-illegal transfer pricing into the IFSC.

Also, look at oil prices, 2002 - $20, 2003 - $30, 2004 - $40, 2005 - $50, 2006 - $60, 2007 - $70. What can the airline sustain for 2010 (the 3 year period I mentioned)?

Guys - be thankful for very well paid jobs and don't push the boat out too much.

[Headinclouds]

Ah Now here, Nobody forced anyone into this industry, thing s have changed, sure you work harder, but anybody with half, okay, a quarter a Business brain, will realise Market forces and change go hand in hand..............If you dont like it and wanna moan about your Life do it somewhere where it will be appreciated........Can someone clarify what percentage of Shamrock Pilots are Cadets? When your a cadet, your life is shamrock, on your first day 'this how we do things here', etc........but the downside to that is you are living in a tunnel......All of a Sudden its Daytime.........thats life.......

[curser]

VORTIME, I am delighted you respect AL pilots. You may well be better qualified to judge the Irish economy but you haven't a clue regarding union activities. You have latched on to the fact that during boom times unions look to increase the T&C's however during the down turns they work with the management to reduce costs even down to job loss. They do this in a fair and balanced way and historically you are quite wrong, those outside the union will have poorer conditions of employment eg. FR.

[curser]

Headinclouds, Please you're killing me! You are talking such complete and utter nonsense. I and many many like me were not cadets and even the cadets in most cases had lives before joining. It is really starting to sound like a case of sour grapes. We are going on strike because Aer Lingus management is not honoring our collective agreements.

[Headinclouds]

Curser, I am purely giving an example of some mentalities, I would never put you all in the same frame, and appreciate your not all cadets....so apologies for that one.....

In Regards to collective agreement, if its legally binding, then your safe, if its not, I suppose you had better dip into the IALPA Legal Fees Fund and hat the Cap around again for a collection......and off to the courts you go......

[jonjoe]

Headinclouds.
Is there an issue with Aer Lingus cadets, or were you just not selected as one?

[Desk-pilot]

As a mid-life career changer who has recently joined the airline pilot profession I strongly support EI pilots for protecting their terms and conditions. The way that the status and conditions of pilots is being eroded so that airlines can undercut each other on fares is insane.

Not very long ago pilots were considered well paid compared to other professions but not anymore -as an example:

Average GP salary UK Jan 2007 £118000
Average Consultant salary 2007 £126142
Average IT Consultant/Project Manager £65 000 (Salaried)
Average accountant £100k (Range £30k-£200k)

There's more at: http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/ddrbev2005~annex3

Now I'd dread to think what the average airline pilot is getting nowadays but I'd be surprised if the average was much over £60k because so many of us are now working in the low cost sector. Frankly I resent having to put up with lesser terms and conditions so that my Sister in Law who works in international finance and earns £280 000 a year can fly around on the cheap)

What the public needs are capable, highly trained, motivated, well rested airline professionals at the sharp end of a 100 tonne jet with souls on board, the only question is whether they are prepared to pay for them.

Desk-pilot

[BBT]

Headinclouds, you certainly have your head somewhere strange!
In Regards to collective agreement, if its legally binding, then your safe With the greatest of respect you are either young and foolish, or just foolish. The only protection you have when agreements are broken, arbitrarly changed, etc. is dialogue (first). If there is no dialogue then Industrial Action (second) is the only way to protect yourself. Safe you most certainly are not. Unless you come from a country where Industrial Law protects agreements directly, the law is a waste of time and money.

Forget the courts. (In any case, what good is winning in court if you have lost the war by the time they get around to telling you you won?).

Aer Lingus is clear about the fact that they are going to do this without talking, despite earlier undertakings to everybody in sight. O.K. then it is down to a fight. Simple. At least the Aer Lingus pilots actually understood this fact, can pull together and made a decision with minimal fuss. Which is more than can be said for some pilot groups - where there seems to be a rush to see who can be first to give away hard won terms and conditions.

Stuff that for a way of behaving. Those of you who believe in handing over part of their salary to others can send me a PM and I will tell you how to send your money to me.

[the grim repa]

are pilots from other companies who fly on their company aircraft,operating for aer lingus while there is a strike classed as "strike breakers".Have heard a rumour that the main opposition and large investor in a.l. is contemplating supplying aircraft and crews.would be a sad day for all concerned.

[alibaba]

Attitude

Isn't it strange how some posters here have adapted the attitude: "support us or get off the forum"


Nobody has said what you have quoted someone to be saying VORTIME.....

You are perfectly entitled to post but you have to expect a tough response on this website with which we all know the title, when you attack pilots T+C's without much argument to your reasoning except to make shareholders more money. This is a pilot’s website not the FT or any other financial blog site. Use a bit of common sense please.

So if the oil price is going up you should be happy to be paying increased ticket prices for your flights to Spain, instead of trying to fund your cheap flights with airlines out of pilot’s pockets. When will the consumer take responsibility for produce and products costing a certain amount of money and not living in a false economy of under valuation?

People do know what they are getting into when they make a career choice but the job has changed quite significantly in the last 20 years or so. Just because you take a career in aviation doesn't mean you should let your T+C's slide.

Headinclouds, I can only assume that you are well travelled and as such you are the definitive voice on T+C's in the airline industry? It is good to know we have you here to answer the EI pilots and cadets questions to whether they are being daft for trying to stop an attack on their T+C's "you are living in a tunnel". These blinkered individual pilots what should we do with them? :rolleyes::rolleyes::hmm:

If you dont like it and wanna moan about your Life do it somewhere where it will be appreciated Sorry I thought this was PPRUNE a professional pilots website? It might not be appreciated by you but it doesn't mean it isn't right and far as I was aware nobody was moaning about their life? It sounds a bit like you are the one moaning my friend? :cool:

[Captain Galactic]

The pilots have absolutely nothing to worry about, its Mannion's head on the chopping board. What is he going to do? Sack them all and somehow find 500 suitably qualified pilots to replace them? I don't think so. I heard big mouth O' Leary saying management should 'face down this threat' and 'let them strike again and again if they want'.What a great idea Mick, I'm sure the lads and lasses at EI will do just that!Are you sure you still want your 25%?!:D
Best of luck to the pilots next week, were all behind you!

[Headinclouds]

'With the greatest of respect you are either young and foolish, or just foolish. The only protection you have when agreements are broken, arbitrarly changed, etc. is dialogue (first). If there is no dialogue then Industrial Action (second) is the only way to protect yourself. Safe you most certainly are not. Unless you come from a country where Industrial Law protects agreements directly, the law is a waste of time and money.'

BBT Good Luck with your attitude, It stinks of insecurity and immatureness.......Hope you have a plan 'B'........

[Telstar]

Is there anyone lower then a scab? I hope the guys crossing the picket lines are heckled and booed to within an inch of their lives. I also hope the guys filling these planes with juice refuse to do so, and respect the picket line.

http://rte.ie/news/2007/0815/aerlingus.html

[BBT]

BBT Good Luck with your attitude, It stinks of insecurity and immatureness.......Hope you have a plan 'B'........
Headinclouds, this is my final comment for you are now revealed to be what you are ....

There was no attitude in what I wrote, I merely pointed out that you seem to suffer from the delusion that industrial agreements are protected by the courts. In some countries they are, but not in most. Normally you protect your agreements by industrial muscle. This is a fact, and not an attitude. The issue underlying this dispute was spelled out in today's Irish Times in simple terms - I don't have a copy to hand, but the thrust was that Aer Lingus management had agreed in advance to consult on all issues and blatently failed to honour its commitment to do so. The response by IALPA was immediate. A surprise to you perhaps..... but not to others.

I do not need a "Plan B" for it is not my fight. Your powers of deduction clearly are as weak as your grasp of the issues. (What evidence was there in my post to justify concluding that I was a participant!?).

ASFKAP above you seem to suffer from the notion that ... this dispute about the fact the managment of Aer Lingus haven't spoken to you about their plans or the actual plans themselves?

No, it is because they did not honour an agreement to consult and made it clear that they would not and, indeed, that they will not even allow third party intervention to mediate an agreed outcome. (I listened to somebody from Aer Lingus dodge and weave on this on the radio today, but the refusal to have mediation is obvious enough).

Judging from the rest of your post you would not seem to be the type of person who would care about that kind of thing - an outlook and point of view to which you are, of course, entitled. But let's not make basic mistakes about what this is all about. It is really quite simple.

[punchus]

Asfkap,
Why shouldn't Ryanair protect their investment in the company by stepping in and flying the routes for EI if asked?.
I have tried to bite my tongue when reading some of the posts on this "professional" pilots forum, but for gods sake.
We are trying to prevent a further erosion of T@C s by management who will have moved on in a few years time to pastures greener(no pun intended).
As I said before if others had did this over the last 20 years of rationalisation the
the industry from a career point of view wouldn't be in the state it's in.
If other pilots operate flights during a strike the the impact of it is negated and no solution through dialogue is found.
Do you think doctors,lawyers,dentists,tradesmen would cross a picket to do the jobs of those on the line. Thats why our industry is in the state it's in.
We have nobody to blame but ourselves. So when some of us try to stand up for ourselves , kindly refrain from undermining that effort. It may indirectly serve to protect the few "professional" pilots that use this network.:ugh::ugh:

[INLAK]

I don't see why they have to seek the approval of the staff whose current terms and conditions remain unaffected.

Unaffected? Management are breaching the pilot's current terms and conditions with their current plans for the BFS base. That's what it's all about!

[Telstar]

Aer Lingus are saying that they have sub contracted 35% of flights out for the days of the strike.

Does anyone know what airlines and which Pilots are coming into Dublin for the 2 days to cross the picket lines? They should be named and shamed on here.

[ZeBedie]

Good luck guys, stand firm and don't blink.

[bnt]

What the public needs are capable, highly trained, motivated, well rested airline professionals at the sharp end of a 100 tonne jet with souls on board, the only question is whether they are prepared to pay for them.So if the oil price is going up you should be happy to be paying increased ticket prices for your flights to Spain, instead of trying to fund your cheap flights with airlines out of pilot’s pockets. When will the consumer take responsibility for produce and products costing a certain amount of money and not living in a false economy of under valuation?Well, as an occasional "consumer" of the "product" produced by EI, I have to wonder: just who is this "public" that thinks only of ticket price above all other considerations? Has anyone actually asked them what they want?

The last time I flew RyanAir was about 3 years ago, and the difference in price to London was huge - far more than any difference in salaries could account for. Other times before that, it was because they went places no-one else went direct e.g. Dublin-Aberdeen.

My point is: it takes more than a minor variation in price to make someone choose one over the other. You can't judge what people want solely by what they do (the airline they fly on): it's not an A/B decision on cost alone, and people have to make do with what's actually available. :ugh:

Safety concerns, bizarre daily price variations, poor transport links, delays due to poor planning (yes, we can tell when turnaround times are unrealistic), and the total trip cost, all come in to it. So what if the basic flight prices went up by 20% to keep staff happy? That would be near-invisible under the added cost of landing at a remote airport, or those bloody "fuel surcharges" that only serve to confuse customers. (You think we don't know that fuel is a major cost in running a plane, and that fuel prices have gone up? :hmm: )

You're all too busy competing on "headline price" to notice that customers are unhappy with the whole experience of planning, booking, and taking a trip that includes a flight. I don't accept the charge that "the public" are in any way responsible for this mess, and looking down your nose at the "consumer" is, to be blunt, delusional. And now you want to punish "us" for poor airline management? (Anyone got P&O Stena's number?)

Rant over. How much worse would it be if I actually had a trip to take soon? :ok:

[PIGDOG]

Does anyone else find it 'interesting' that one of the routes AL are saying will be covered during the strike is the Shannon - Heathrow route? The very one that is going to be dropped to make way for the Belfast base.

[CaptKremin]

So is this dispute about the fact the managment of Aer Lingus haven't spoken to you about their plans or the actual plans themselves?
If they've found a cost effective way to expand the airline by opening a new base outside the jurisdiction and the board agrees its in the best interests of the shareholders then I don't see why they have to seek the approval of the staff whose current terms and conditions remain unaffected.The Aer Lingus pilots are shareholders, and they feel this is not in their best interests. It also breaches solemn agreements with the pilots. Confrontational and aggressive management causes a breakdown in trust, and destroys good working relationships. The result is perfectly predictable.

....some people, perhaps naievley assumed that with the staff owning such a large slice of the company they would 'look at the bigger picture' (the survival of the airline) in when it came to matters of industrial relations.The staff in Aer Lingus paid for their shareholding in cash or productivity. They were a punt for them too, and none of them will be retiring to their yacht in the Med on the proceeds.

A decent JOB is worth more to people than a smallholding.

You may find that difficult to comprehend, since (given your comments) you are obviously living off the proceeds of your own lucrative investments, and can't relate to the irritating 'little people' who must work to make you wealthy.

What message will this strike send out to current and perhaps more importantly future investors in the company if Aer Lingus backs down on this one? Answer, in Aer Lingus the unions still run the company and have the final say in all managment decisions.
I would say the message it will send out is this - "if you want to make a fast buck off the exploitation of stupid 'little people', look elsewhere. Try NIKE (http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/nike/) or Ryanair (http://www.itfglobal.org/campaigns/ryan-be-fair.cfm)".

And I would say it also says - "if you want to invest in an ethical company, which does not mistreat employees, and which does not operate discriminatory employment practices - put your money here (http://www.aerlingus.com)".

I understand that ethical investment (also known as Socially Responsible Investment) is one of the fastest growing sectors in the money markets.

What if the company did decide to back down and postpone or cancel the opening of the Belfast base along with the recruitment of the new staff on the new contracts, would this be an acceptable outcome to the pilots and their union representatives?
No, and it would be a stupid and unnecessary outcome.
The Belfast base WILL go ahead, but it will be done on an agreed basis.

Why shouldn't Ryanair protect their investment in the company by stepping in and flying the routes for EI if asked?
Ryanair can do what they like - but they don't own LHR slots, so your point is stupid. Again.

[OneWorld22]

Aer Lingus's responsibility as a commerical entity is to maximise the return to it's shareholders.

If the board has taken a decision to expand the airline and secure long term growth by opening another base in another jurisdiction and adapt local market conditions to pilots who will operate from that base, that is a management decision and it seems a responsible one bearing in mind what Flynn said...

But yet again narrow minded Unions will try and stick their oar in and actually stop a company they are a shareholder of from expanding!! Why? because of the paranoia that big bad Dermot will apply these new T's and C's to the ROI pilots...

And yet again, no mention from Aer Lingus pilots of the effect that this will have on their customers. Sod them, just make sure I have my job for life...

Laughable on one hand but in reality, a disgrace. :yuk:

[CaptKremin]

Aer Lingus's responsibility as a commerical entity is to maximise the return to it's shareholders.
Absolutely.
If the board has taken a decision to expand the airline and secure long term growth by opening another base in another jurisdiction and adapt local market conditions to pilots who will operate from that base, that is a management decision and it seems a responsible one...Absolutely, as long as they comply with existing industrial agreements, freely entered into. If they break agreements, then that is irresponsible.

bearing in mind what Flynn said...
Who is Flynn, and what did he say???

But yet again narrow minded Unions will try and stick their oar in and actually stop a company they are a shareholder of from expanding!! Why? No, not to stop it expanding. To stop it exploiting them and the new employees.
because of the paranoia that big bad Dermot will apply these new T's and C's to the ROI pilots...
Paranoia?
I suggest you research what goes on at FR. Plenty of info on this very site.
And yet again, no mention from Aer Lingus pilots of the effect that this will have on their customers.Equally you are the first protagonist to mention the passengers!
Most of the 'anti' comments have been whinges about the poor benighted shareholders! Now, as an afterthought, you remember the public?

Why don't you ask Mr.Mannion if he'd like to apologise to his Shannon - Heathrow passengers for the permanent disruption of their services!

[MarkD]

pigdog - it could be that EI are prioritising codeshare routes?

[mini]

Arguments for and against... both sides well entrenched.

At some stage someone will have to sort this out, I don't envy them whoever they are. :sad:

[Captain Greaser]

It wasn't so long ago that the then current pilots in Aer Lingus pilots voted in yellow pack workers in order for themselves to get a pay rise. In the late 80's direct entry pilots were employed on a salary £10,000 a year less than what the then current pilots started on ten years before hand.
Now the currecnt pilots who have been watching the fat cats retire earning twice as much as they are on have taken a stand and will not stand for any more erosion of there working conditions. And besides there are agreements in place which the company have ignored.
Good luck to the EI pilots.At least they have balls unlike so many else in our profession.
I have been flying for 27 years.All bar three years in the far east and the uk have been in Ireland.
I have now turned my back on Irish companies to go work for Easy. The terms and conditions have gotten so bad in Irish companies that Irish people do not want to work in them. Try working for 14 hours in an aircraft that has no ovens and you have no time for a meal break and no access to hot food? Just look at the mass exodeuse from Ryan Air and City Jet. The only descent job left in the Republic is Aer Lingus and now the management want to follow O,Leary into the gutter.
I for once find myself backing Aer Lingus pilots 100%

[CaptKremin]

Do you feel people who work for NIKE or Ryanair are somehow inferior to you?
On the contrary - I believe it is YOU who consider them stupid little people. Stupid and insignificant! Mere chattels, who tend to get in the way of your almighty free market by making inconvenient demands for fairness and respect! Ryanair and NIKE are plain examples of how your business heroes will treat anyone unable to stand up to them. You should be ashamed of yourself in supporting them!

If you read my post you'll see I didn't say anything about RYR flying to LHR, somebody mentioned in an earlier post the possibility of Ryanair operating some flights for EI during the strike, this is the point I was referring to.And my point is that your point is irrelevant because Ryanair does not own the slots. The slots are the issue - get it?

I have a 'relatively' small shareholding in Aer Lingus
Really? My mistake! You sound like you own the place!
Why should working people in Aer Lingus or NI put your 'relatively' small holding in front of their own survival? Do you think they should? Would you sacrifice your future for a greedy stranger with a 'relatively small holding' in your business?
but that makes me an owner none the less so I am entitled to a voiceYes certainly. A 'relatively small voice'. Not the bombastic and domineering one you are using. If you want a bigger voice, buy more shares and suppport the company - which is what the Aer Lingus pilots have all done.

[keepitlit]

Heard the Belfast recriutment has been put on hold already, oh this has all been well thought out!:*

rgds

Keepitlit

[jonjoe]

IFALPA recruitment ban in place for Belfast based positions.:=

[FO JimmieJames]

I'm in the Priority Pool for AL. Why have they not used the pool for Belfast? I just want to fly - I'm tired of waiting.

[jonjoe]

FO JJ.
You will start in dublin under current T&C's. the company wants to open belfast base with new contracts, different T&Cs. that is what this whole row is about.......

[snipes]

I'm in the Priority Pool for AL. Why have they not used the pool for Belfast? I just want to fly - I'm tired of waiting.


Sheesh.

And to protect you from yourself it appears. Yes you want to fly now - you'd probably take any conditions offered at the drop of a hat just to get your bum on a shinny green plane, but it's pilots like this that screw everyone up in the long run.

I hope you get selected soon, but one day you'll hopefully be able to look back and thank the EI guys for what they're doing TO SAVE/IMPROVE YOUR CAREER TODAY!

I fear that eaten bread is soon forgotten though...

[Green Army]

Hi,

I am in the Priority Pool for Al as well...SINCE MAY!!! Did all the test in a week and now I am still waiting! When do they think they can start the next course? And will this be 2007 or 2008, will it be Belfast or Dublin.

I wish the people form AL would make up their minds and let us know.!! Instead of constant waiting without any news or updates.:ugh:

Is there anyone from within AL here that can help us and give an idea when the will start the next courses. I am already rated so how hard can it be?

And NO I wont accept Belfast under thes conditions...I would strike as well. I am with the AL pilots, all of them! And mechanics...and cabin crew....and office staff!!! Its not just the pilots but its all of them that work for AL.

MANY THANKS!!:ok::D:ok:

[Blinkz]

I'm another in the pool waiting to hear. I have to say I was a little disappointed to not be called for Belfast but I understand the reasons behind why. I think it will be better to let IALPA and Aer Lingus come to a mutual agreement about the T&Cs and then hopefully the pool will be used for recruitment.

[CaptKremin]

I believe it was you who 'called' them "stupid little people", and now "stupid and insignificant" Your attitude to the Staff and Pilots of Aer Lingus is clear enough. Don't try to back-pedal and pretend you give a damn about them now, or any other worker, or even the travelling public for that matter.

You care only about your fast-buck investment paying off for you.

put a little 'Wealth Warning' on the Aer Lingus share certificates to remind us of the perils involved with investing in risky ventures


So you didn't think your investment strategy through too well? Oh dear, It would certainly appear so!

Did you not understand that the aviation sector is one of the most volatile in the money markets? I could've alerted you to that. Pity you didn't seek information or advice before taking such a risky punt!

Perhaps you do indeed need a banner 'health warning' to help you avoid risky investment sectors where you are clearly out of your depth?

Write to the Irish Stock Exchange, see if they'll give you a dig out.
I imagine their answer will be 'Shares can fall as well as rise'!
Oooerrr!!! :rolleyes:

But hey...you made a bad choice, maybe you'll lose a few quid. You'll soon get over it.
My advice to you now is - SELL SELL SELL!

Meanwhile the pilots at Aer Lingus are fighting to save their livliehoods and careers....you get zero sympathy from me.:=

And I see from the last several posts that the mood is against you.

[OneWorld22]

aviation sector is one of the most volatile in the money markets

Sorry, the "money markets"???? And you're trying to advise someone here on investments?! :D

Stick to flying aircraft mate.

fighting to save their livliehoods and careers
oh for f**k sake, start the violins lads. Fighting for Careers?? Oh purleassse. An airline sets up a new base and wishes to introduce T's and C's appropriate tp that local market a market in another ciountry and you take that to ean your career is under threat?

The shrill levels from EI pilots has been incredible. Complete overreaction on every level and yet again, sod the consumer, the consumer who keeps the airline in the air.

[CaptKremin]

Sod the consumer? Thats Mr.Mannions attitude.
As for shrill...it seems to me that you need to check your own posts. You might start by moderating the foul language.

[Le Rocket]

Hey Oneworld, the fact that there's a One in your user name leads me to believe that you think quite highly of yourself. That doesn't surprise me, based on your previous posts.
I don't know what you do for a living and I don't care. I do know however, that you're not a pilot, so the fact is you will never 'get it'.

The point is this. Aerlingus pilots don't care about the develpoment of other bases. They encourage it. They do however, care about their livelihoods and the future of aviation as a whole.

[OneWorld22]

Your "livliehoods" oh give me a break. Your "livliehood" is not under threat. "Future of aviation"??? :p So the future of aviation is under threat because a commercial entity makes a decision based on long term growth and wishes to pay local market salaries???

It is the Pilots who are calling for strike action, not Mannion so try another angle eh? You have NO support from the general public on this one. And it your customers come from the General public, just remember that, (remember your customers? the people you are supposed to be serving?)

A letter written to the Irish times today sums it up..

Madam, - If Aer Lingus were to open a hub in Sydney, or Chicago, or Ulan Bator, should the pilots there have the same pay and conditions as pilots flying out of Dublin?

This disgraceful strike demonstrates once again the basic attitudes that pervade many (if not most) Government and semi-state bodies: an absolute contempt for the needs of the customer, an overweening sense of entitlement, a mythology of grievance, and a conviction that these organisations exist not for the benefit of owners, customers, the government or the public at large, but for the benefit of the employees. - Yours, etc,

JOHN STAFFORD, Knocklyon, Dublin 16.


That totally sums it up and also is clear that this is the feeling of many of the pilots here. That EI exists for your benefit, not your customers. That you have a lifelong career at EI and that's all that matters, which of course is ridiculous.

And foul language? Grow a spine.

[CaptKremin]

Mannion appeared on the RTE news program 'Prime Time' at 2130.

They replayed his interview from the same show in March 2006 - during the run up to the IPO.

In the archived interview he was asked about the guarentees on LHR slots - given the particular need Ireland has for airlinks with the UK.
Mr.Mannions response then was that the Governments 25% share-holding were an absolute guarentee that if any Aer Lingus management decided to do something against the national interest that they could use their shareholding 'to block the decision'.

Mannion was asked if he still believed this now.

He looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights. He attempted to dodge the question, but was asked again if he still believes the Government are correct to block such decisions....and again he dodged the question.

It was an ignoble performance. He was damned by his own words.

The fact is, Mannion made many such soothing promises and 'solemn undertakings' before the IPO. He promised no further sacrifices would be demanded off the staff - and he lied. He promised all collective agreements (including the pilots SCOPE clause) would be honoured - and he lied. He promised the slots were safe in his hands - and he lied again.

Yet, in spite of all the lies and broken promises, this is the fault of the pilots?

The other news tonight was that Aer Lingus have rejected IALPA's offer of talks....he is gagging for the fight, and sod the customers (are you getting this OW22?).

His position is extremely precarious now.
There will be fireworks at tomoprrows meeting between him and the Shannon lobby. Can't wait to see it.

As soon as that RTE program is online I'll post a link.


Grow a spine.
You're advice appears contradictory. I thought you were previously recommending the spineless response of capitulating to bullying arrogance and contract breaches? Which is it to be?

[Visual Calls]

It's very simple as Capt Kremin points out.
Aer Lingus freely entered into agreements with the pilots regarding terms and conditions. Aer Lingus have unilaterally reneged on said agreements. Furthermore, they have rejected the pilots repeated offers to enter into negotiations. End of story.

Many are keen to portray it as "just another base" so what's the problem? No problem, the pilots are more keen than any management figure for a multitude of bases. Who do you think has more committment to a strong prosperous Aer Lingus, a transient management team or a lifer pilot?
But the dynamic is simple and the point is missed by most of our detractors. Let me spell it out:
BFS get paid less. The next base gets paid a bit less again, then the next (this pattern will sound familiar to ryanair pilots). Crews at cheaper bases will overnight in DUB and operate DUB routes. So DUB will stagnate. Bye bye command. Then along will come the management and say, sorry lads you cost more than all your colleagues, we'll have to pay you a lot less. Take it or leave it (sound familiar again, ryanair pilots?).

This industry is going down the tubes fast. Why? Because the utter apathy of most pilots allows management to walk all over us. Stand up people, get some backbone and improve your lot.
If we loose this situation, our careers will be gone to hell anyway, so may as well die fighting.

BTW, ryanair pilots. Why not join us on the picket line and together we can stop the rot destroying Irish aviation?

[DrKev]

An airline sets up a new base and wishes to introduce T's and C's appropriate tp that local market a market in another ciountry and you take that to ean your career is under threat?

Actually, for a number of pilots, it is. While the seniority system may be an outdated system it is still in place in Aer Lingus and a very difficult thing to replace. As I understand the situation talking to Aer Lingus flight crew in the last few days, there is a long standing agreement between pilots and management that seniority must be respected and that all flight crew in the pointy end of the green machines should be on equal T & C's. The proposed deal for new staff at Belfast, for example, direct entry captains, means that this is not the case.

In effect, people waiting patiently for eight years for their turn at promotion are now told that, contrary to the existing agreements in place, they will be blatantly ignored in favour of new arrivals who may well have less experience than they have. If they want a chance at those positions they must resign their current place and re-apply for the Belfast positions with terms and conditions below what they already have and no guarantees of resuming work with the same employer.

In addition to this, there would be nothing to stop Aer Lingus management firing staff in Dublin and transferring the cheaper 'Northern' staff down south in their place. Anyone remember the Irish Ferries dispute? It's a very similar situation and at that time the public were firmly behind the striking Irish Ferries employees!! Go here for a reminder of the issues involved. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4527162.stm)

Aer Lingus management are not respecting their existing agreements, in fact they have made very clear that they have no intention of respecting those agreements. Remember, after 9/11, Aer Lingus staff themselves, through their unions, approached their management with a view to taking measures to ensure the survival of the airline. For those same workers to be treated in this manner now is understandably a very difficult pill for them to swallow.

As to "T's and C's appropriate tp that local market" (sic) there are a number of people north of the border who are very annoyed that Aer Lingus does not see fit to offer new employees similar T & C's to those of other crew members, based in Belfast or elsewhere.

Another agreement in place is that the senior flight crew who are senior IALPA members are given appropriate leave to deal with issues with management. Management have made this very difficult, allocating the "IALPA days" when management are not available and offering to talk when their IALPA counterparts are flying. Not exactly a great way to maintain good industrial relations.

It seems to me that the last annoyance of IALPA members is the relative silence of their union, who otherwise have been doing a commendable job of trying to negotiate with their management but seem lost when it comes to explaining to the public why this industrial action is taking place. Why is it that I, mere SLF, have to detail these kinds of things here based on my recollections of phone conversations with very worried and angry flight crew? Irish Ferries staff were strongly supported by the public in their time but Aer Lingus flight crew are getting blasted for trying to avoid the same thing. :ugh:

I stand behind these dedicated, professional men and women 100% and I urge you all to do so too. In this day and age as a privatised company, Aer Lingus is not the Irish national carrier any more than Ryanair or Aer Arann. However, the dedication over the last ten years of a majority of the flight crew, cabin crew and ground staff to at ensure the survival of one of the best known Irish brands is a cause for pride, IMHO. That the management of an Irish company would treat it's employees with such contempt and disrespect is a cause for shame.

Here endeth my sermon. :mad:

[411A]

Aer Lingus said it "hopes to operate a limited schedule of European flights" next week during a two-day pilot strike called in protest of its decision to open a Belfast base (ATWOnline, Aug. 15). The airline said it has agreed to wet-lease "a number" of aircraft for Aug. 21-22.

Management nearly always wins.:}

[Farty Flaps]

The industry needs a couple of companies like AL or BA with the old systems of seniority and salaries in order to give something for other pilot groups to aspire to and compare vis avis Tand C's in their relevant negotiations.

I f these type of companies loose their positions as industry role models in Tand c's we are left we the alternative. Companies like RYR will become the yardstick then we are all fecked. Companies fed by greedy posing rich kids who would sell their souls for a shiney 800 an early left seat and 10 minutes in an eastern euopeans hosty's knickers.:ok:

[omoko joe]

an interesting but valid point made on the thread below to help muddy the waters..
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=288338

I can't see the Assemebly boys standing for a wholsale import of crew who are 'technically' from a foreign country. Every other NI based airline hires at least a good proportion of locals.

[An Paddy Eile]

I have to say that in this discussion, as DrKev says, it is really important to remember the Irish Ferries scenario. Have a read of the link he posted. That, in my opinion, is the real threat from Aer Lingus management. In this race to the bottom, it has become acceptable to completely ignore the effect on current staff. The argument always is that the new staff are willing to accept the lower terms and conditions so where is the problem. The word Ryanair is a perfect answer.

Irish Ferries went to the trouble of re-registering their vessels abroad so that they would not even be required to pay the new staff the Irish minimum wage. All who watched the saga unfold were angry and insulted that an Irish company could attempt such a flagrant abuse of new employees, by offering them a package that was designed to be attractive when compared to their extremely low average wage in their home country, but which would have been illegal under Irish law. It became worse when it was apparent that the existing employees would need to move out to make room for these cheap staff. At least with Irish Ferries, the management had an argument that Irish Ferries would be unable to survive otherwise as passenger traffic had dropped to record low levels.


Aer Lingus is a profitable company and has been for a few years now since 2001. There is no need to offer new T's & C's for survival, only for profit maximisation. That existing employees should be put at risk in the name of good business, those same employees who have been flying the green machines for decades and therefore are also responsible for the positive position the company is currently in, is outrageous. A few years ago, Bank of Ireland recorded the highest annual profit in their history. Then they announced that were laying off 1,800 staff to reduce costs. How can you possibly condone that behaviour?

What is the difference between a company which re-registers itself to another country so that it can undercut the pay at it's home base and one which explains that no other country's local market deserves the same package as Ireland? Aer Lingus are covering their real intentions with the MO'L type spin of it being in accordance with the local market. Do you ever think they would find a country where the local market warrants a package better than that on offer in Dublin? Of course not. It is a smoke screen to a desire to get away with as much as possible. This is about more than business. Ethics are involved here too. Unfortunately that is a concept that modern society is finding hard to recall.

[alibaba]

Two very good posts by Visual Calls and DrKev.


Your "livliehoods" oh give me a break. Your "livliehood" is not under threat.

Will you answer points put to you Oneworld by other posters? Or are you about to scurry away with your tail between your legs?

Every drop in T+C's in each new base will lead to another drop in the next base. This is the way the pattern follows. It is slow and insidious until you find that your pay or T+C's is 25% or so less than another pilot in the same company out of another base. Then the company will seek to lower the original higher paid base.

It is the slow erosion of terms that airline pilots (that excludes you oneworld) need to be aware of. This is why you will find other professions making progressively more and more money and being treated a whole lot better than how pilots are treated with the slow decay of wages and T+C's.

You see your livelihood is not at threat oneworld.....:mad: But every pilots on this forum is. Every time you lower T+C's you lower the bench mark for pilots in that company and others. Every pilot in every company will have an affect on other pilots in a different company. You could say we rely on each other in many ways. Pilot’s livelihoods are at threat from continuing lowering of T+C's across the industry and it needs to be stopped.

You have to stop this somewhere and EI pilots have stated where they are going to stop the rot. :D

All I can say is well done! I wish other groups of pilots in other airlines would take note and do the same. ;)

[ZeBedie]

The airline said it has agreed to wet-lease "a number" of aircraft for Aug. 21-22.

That's not so bad - it'll cost a fortune!

[mill island]

why has no-one pointed out the seemingly obvious. If ALT succeed in setting up a new base ANYWHERE with lower T&Cs the next and undeniable move will be to start flying those pilots into and out of DUB thereby undermining the work of the existing employees. This is not rocket science..........
If slots can be moved out of Ireland to NI, why not to JFK, BOS, ORD, AMS, CDG, and on and on. ALT might just decide to put on one early and one late flight to LHR from DUB.....
They claim to have ordered new aircraft(although waht DM actually said was that they had "put in place plans" to buy aircraft....no form orders have shown up anywhere!!) If they do ever actually take delivery, it is likely each new aircraft will go to a new base and then commence flights into DUB....
Local T&C and pay rates is a red herring in the aviation business as it pertains to pilots. Pilots are mobile workers on mobile assets. All you need to do is "base" them in a low cost environment and then "operate" them into your chosen market....look at the shipping industry. Irish Ferries was a wake up call. They operate slow cumbersome craft that cannot easily relocate too far from your market area. Aircraft can go home to eastern europe every night, and if you've succeeded in screwing the working conditions sufficiently, they can be back in your home base by start of business the next morning...........or of course you simply "overnight" the new pilots in your base, putting them up ála Ryanair at their own expense.....game over:cool:

[OneWorld22]

Every drop in T+C's in each new base will lead to another drop in the next base. This is the way the pattern follows. It is slow and insidious until you find that your pay or T+C's is 25% or so less than another pilot in the same company out of another base. Then the company will seek to lower the original higher paid base.


That is not how it works, you are deliberately trying to paint a false picture to justify this stance. Airlines do this, companies do this. Do you think that a company like Intel for example will pay it's Californian workers the same as workers in Israel or elsewhere? Of course they don't and paying market salaries in one country does not effect the salaries paid in the higher cost jurisdiction. No company with a presence in multiple foreign markets will have one blanket set of T's and C;'s they will apply for everyone, that is absurd.

Your argument doesn't wash. The idea that somehow Belfast would lead to a lowering of T's and C's elsewhere is simply pie in the sky stuff. The general public (your customers) just cannot understand your stance on this. It is absurd.

[Skintman]

It might seem controversial, but isn't it just normal supply and demand. When there's a glut of pilots (as there has been for a few years), T & C's get squeezed down. When a shortage happens, things go in reverse, as airlines poach and are forced to offer better T & C's to recruit.

If you want T & C's to stay the same when there's a glut, then they need to stay the same when there's a shortage.:bored:

Skintman

[Visual Calls]

OW22, you may think the argument is absurd. In that case you no nothing about ryanair, for example.
History in a nutshell: DUB once the best paid base in ryanair. Each subsequent base on less money than previous. These lower paid contractors now working ex-DUB with no longer the old well-paid contracts on offer.
Also, what is your stance of the basic issue: that the company have unilaterally broken freely entered into agreements and then refuse any form of negotiation?

[Desert Diner]

You have to stop this somewhere and EI pilots have stated where they are going to stop the rot.

Unfortunately, they will probably achieve this by running EI out of business. I doubt there will be much hope of Bertie & Co. comming to the rescue this time.

[Visual Calls]

Unfortunately, they will probably achieve this by running EI out of business.

How will honouring the existing profitable agreements run EI out of business?
Despite management spin, EI has one of the lowest unit costs in Europe. Hardly the stuff of an overburdened legacy carrier.

[michaelknight]

Quote
"Do you think that a company like Intel for example will pay it's Californian workers the same as workers in Israel or elsewhere? Of course they don't and paying market salaries in one country does not effect the salaries paid in the higher cost jurisdiction."

And would a middle manager working in Intel be required to resign his job, giving up his pension should he be moved or be willing to move to Isreal or somewhere else. I think not. The whole situation created by the management of Aer Lingus is a disgrace. You can argue the point all you want. It most definately dosen't wash!

[Desert Diner]

I meant a prolonged pilot strike and resulting short term wet leasing.

Low cost or not, EI won't be able to last long under those conditions.

It is unfortunate but Irish Management, in all industires, seem to have learned well from MOL.

EI has one of the lowest unit costs in Europe

Unfortunately, competing against FR, their RPMs are probably some of the lowest also.

[Seat1APlease]

Do you think that a company like Intel for example will pay it's Californian workers the same as workers in Israel or elsewhere?
But workers in California do their work there, as do those in Israel. The difference is that pilots, by their nature, can be based in one place yet asked to operate elsewhere. Unless there is a clear agreement that they cannot use pilots from a cheap base do do the work of pilots from a base with better T&C's then that is what any management will eventually strive to do. You will find crew being positioned about to achieve minimum cost levels. You may find that eventually most shorthaul crews are based elsewhere and only long-haul crews who are duty limited based on full T&C's.
There is little new under the sun, BA introduced cheap bases in MAN and LGW but it was agreed and understood by both sides that if a MAN crew ever operated MAN-LHR then all hell would break loose.

[Desert Diner]

And would a middle manager working in Intel be required to resign his job, giving up his pension should he be moved or be willing to move to Isreal or somewhere else. I think not.

Apples to Oranges. Managers are not unionized while Pilots are.

[michaelknight]

Apples to Oranges. Managers are not unionized while Pilots are.

Desert Diner, my suggestion was in the context of a captain in an airline, any airline being considered as middle management in an organisations structure.

[DrKev]

I meant a prolonged pilot strike and resulting short term wet leasing.
Low cost or not, EI won't be able to last long under those conditions.

Exactly, which is why that will never happen and why strike action is an important part of industrial relations when things go screwy. Remember, not running the company into the ground is part of management's job, and keeping people working is part of the union's job. Something, somewhere will happen to bring everyone to a situation they can all live with.

Apples to Oranges.

Yes, lets stop comparing Intel to Aer Lingus. Nice try but the analogy isn't really working. But lets stick to the important point - yes we can talk about differing pay scales in different global regions, that's all fair enough, but should people in one part of the world be expected to accept worse working conditions?

Lets take this argument to it's most ridiculous logical conclusions. Lets take a clothing factory somewhere in a non-fictional far eastern country. If the factories they work in and the hours the work are similar to a European standard, yes, their salary should still be relevant to their local market. No problems there, everyone will agree. However, if they worked in a horrible grimy sweat shop, should that be more acceptable because of where they live?

The whole California-Israel argument is pretty much invalid anyway. We are talking about Ireland and the UK. Yes, some laws and tax and pension structures are different but we are basically the same bunch of people and we expect the same level of decent treatment, as do people all over Europe.

Within the same company, competing for the same positions and promotions, they should have the same basic rights and treatment. Look at the UN as an example. Yes salaries have a component that is locale related but it's the one contract no matter where in the world you work at any given point in time.

[Green Army]

Ryanair raises its stake in Aer Lingus to 28% (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2007/0817/1187036623069.html)

Ryanair is believed to have spent €37.6 million yesterday increasing its stake in Aer Lingus to 28 per cent.

See www.irishtimes.ie (http://www.irishtimes.ie)

WAUW WHAT IS HAPPENING???

(if we strike, MOL will take even more!!) Surely thats the last thing we want. So let us stop here. Let us, as pilots, be the grown ups and protect what we so despirately wish to protect.


Why dont the AL pilots take the strike of the table and sit down with the management. I truly think that the thread of striking is as effective as actually striking. Its not in anyones interest to let the strike go through.

Let us now sit down after giving the AL management a clear message that talks are needed AND if we sit down AL management needs to be willing to listen and act on it.

LET's GO FOR IT, DONT LET MOL TAKE OVER THE BEST AIRLINE IN THE SKY!!!

[OneWorld22]

I've been telling people this strike action is playing exactly into MOL's hands..

He is loving this. If a situation came where the intransigence eventually caused Mannion to walk as his position would be untenable. What reputable, talented businessman would ever come in and take over? Who would want such a poisoned chalice where you cannot make commercial decisions without your workers saying no and walking out?

The stock price will tumble and nobody will want to invest. The airline will then be offered at a cut price and who would be the one to step forward??

He'll happily take a loss as FR have such a war chest and he will take over the airline.

[Green Army]

Dont get me wrong. I am completly behind the pilots. I am waiting to start with AL my self. But I do think that when we actually go through with the strike we will do more damage than good. I think we need to call it "off" for now and sit down.

The whole Nation is listening and looking at us and what we do now. We can make or brake the airline by striking or not striking. So why dont we stand down....for now. We have got the message across to all people involved. We have everbodies attention. Now is the time to make a difference. If after the talks AL wishes to continue with their plans than I think we should go ahead and pull the plug.

I think by fighting like children is in MOL's attention because nobody looks at him while we are fighting like children like..." you give up first...no, you give up first etc etc.

I think we have a message to bring across with calling a strike, now is the time to sit down.

Please let us stop calling eachother names. We need to come with a sollution without diagnosing the causes and symptoms for days on this thread!!!

We are the sollution in this. People will respect us for it!! Investers wont run away to please MOL because they are scared of loosing their money in shares.

C'MON GUYS!!:D

[Visual Calls]

He'll happily take a loss as FR have such a war chest and he will take over the airline.

One small, yet vexing, point for mol, is that he is legally prohibited from taking over.

To reiterate, the pilots are happy to open bases in BFS, BHX, WAW or Timbuktu, wherever. Is it too simple to ask that management abide by the agreements they freely entered into? Is it too much to ask them to talk to the IALPA?
If we wanted to work for o'leary air, we could walk across the car park to the white house and get on with being shafted right now, rather than wait for it at EI, as come it surely will if cheaper bases happen. History says it will. Only the stupid don't learn from history.

Unfortunately, competing against FR, their RPMs are probably some of the lowest also.

I suggest you peruse the relevant financial literature before commenting.

[Visual Calls]

If after the talks AL wishes to continue with their plans than I think we should go ahead and pull the plug.

There are no talks. Management won't talk. The pilots will talk at any time or place of their choosing.
The management want a strike. The agenda is much bigger than BFS. The agenda is to break IALPA.
If IALPA is broken, you may as well not bother looking for a job in EI, just go straightaway to ryanair. Which will be lost too, as IALPA (and BALPA) are the only ones trying to help the ryanair pilots (which is more than most ryanair pilots are doing for themselves :*).
This profession has been in freefall for years, and that's with union protection. Where the hell d'you think it will be in another 10 years if management get their way 100%?

[papa2andcharlie]

So why dont we stand down....for now. We have got the message across to all people involved. We have everbodies attention. Now is the time to make a difference. If after the talks AL wishes to continue with their plans than I think we should go ahead and pull the plug.


With all due respect, you're on the outside looking in. If you actually believe that we haven't done everything that you've suggested for weeks/months/years with management and instead we've simply decided to down tools at the first hurdle - that's very naive.

It is a matter of FACT that this management and our beloved Willie Walsh predecessor ONLY start listening when the planes stop flying. Something IALPA and it's pilots wish could be changed.

PS. EI Management don't appreciate seeing their cadets/applicants posting on these types of forums. Considering your position (in holding pool and nice simple to identify username) I'd just sit back for a few weeks.....

[splitpot]

Well said jpb...agree totally. Am sick of fighting to get started with any decent airline and when I hear about this strike all I think is am I right to even have gone through what I did to get this far. I keep hearing the comments from ground staff and others like "here go the pilots throwing their toys out of their prams again" and "greedy" being mentioned again and again. Going on strike is doing nothing to improve the image of pilots being overpaid and doing nothing for huge salaries. What makes it worse is that all of a sudden Michael O'Leary is being touted as a hero for fighting the EI SNN decision and for calling his pilots peacocks and telling them to f$&k off every two years to put them back in their boxes.

This strike is counter productive if you ask me.

[BBT]

J.P.Balkenende you seem to be one of the many people who missed the actual reasons for this strike. It was caused by the unwillingness of management to adhere to previous agreements and to enter into talks. (I gave specific information on my sources for this in an earlier post - mainly the Irish Times). Aer Lingus said that they would only enter into talks if they could continue with aspects of their original Belfast proposal, so they rejected the offer of talks from IALPA.

oneworld22, am I to presume that your post immediately above is a considered position - or perhaps it is intended as a joke? You sound like someone who has read Chapater 1 of "The Stockmarket for Infants" and now knows how the world "really works"!! (If your analysis is serious I am not sure that there is much sense in trying to sort out the causes of this with you).

What each of us thinks abouit this dispute comes down to one simple issue - who do we think is being unreasonable and inflexible. On the basis of the evidence outlined in the papers it seems clear that management are completely determined to do what they want to do. It seems equally clear that IALPA reacted to this. (As did the people in the West of Ireland to the Shannon decision). What I would like to see or hear about is any evidence that clarifies who is causing the problem. So far the answer seems self-evident to me.

[Green Army]

BBT Thank you for your reply. I do understand the reason why the strike is on the table. I also believe that by striking we do more damage than good. One would think that by striking you are trying to bring a message across. And I think we managed to do that. Look at all the media attention. So to me now is the time to reap!!

Other point of attention is that by fighting in a close circle you loose attentuion for what is happening around you i.e. MOL and his ambition to tackle the airline.

Now is the time to protect what we think needs to be protected. Dont let it slip away because of our ambition to make a statemant.

THNX

[potkettleblack]

JP what do you propose? The pilots go and talk and talk and talk again. Have more meetings perhaps. Or maybe agree on things that are subsequently rescinded by management. The current discussions have been ongoing for years. Management has put out its stall by the tack they have taken in regards to Belfast. This is a major change in stance for them. Never before have they been so aggressive. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and unfortunately for management the only thing that will bring them to the bargaining table is the threat of a strike. This is the only thing that will hit them in their wallets.

Or perhaps you will be happy to buy your own type rating and fly out of Belfast. Maybe you would be happy to be moved to another base after a year or be told that your terms and conditions are subject to change without notice? Maybe you would like to work for an airline full of transients. You know the sort of airline where people come in for a few years, build their hours, take whatever deal management are willing to offer them and then move onto something "better". Maybe you don't care about the prospects of being in command when management will get someone in who is willing to fly for half the price. They might be able to even get a waiver so they don't need a JAA licence.

Problem is where is this better airline that you will hope to move onto in a few years? You tell me.

[BBT]

J.P.Balkenende you say "now is the time to reap" - but if nobody will talk, how do you "reap"? In any case, there is no need to reap, there is only a need to talk and reach an agreed position between the parties. That's how I see it.

I was just interested in seeing if anybody had some information that I missed about who is being the problem here - it is often the case that there is more going on that we are told in the media ............... but ... nothing forthcoming so far.

[snaga]

Splitplot – good news, there is a solution for your problem!

If you want to be poorly paid pilot and to only work for 18 hours a week you can pay Ryanair (the High Pay airline) for a B737-800 rating and join them to be bonded in for several years of cheap labour. Given your outlook they will welcome you with open arms, so your job prospects are nothing like as poor as you think.

As a bonus you could probably arrange to have your licence or a tee-shirt endorsed “Not a strutting peacock” and “Proud to employed by MOL”.

[Visual Calls]

I was just interested in seeing if anybody had some information that I missed about who is being the problem here - it is often the case that there is more going on that we are told in the media ............... but ... nothing forthcoming so far.

There won't be anything else forthcoming, because there is nothing else beyond the very simplicity of it all: the unilateral breaking of written agreements.

The end game is to avoid going down the ryanair route as this will surely happen if things proceed as management wish. Potkettleblack very succinctly assesses the situation in that regard. The reality is that the profession is at precipice. The "good" airlines are disappearing fast and if the rot is not stopped we'll all work for either ryanair or ryanair-lite. There'll be no escape, no "career" airlines, no "good airlines." Either get used to it or stand up.

[splitpot]

See snaga, this is my problem. Because of the "peacocks", all that is left for me it seems is the MOR route and several years of cheap labour as you say. A lot of people who think they know it all on this and other forums became pilots in a time when if you became a cadet (with EI) for example, you were guaranteed a job with them on good wages and conditions. Now, I am sure you are going to have a story about how hard you worked and how much it cost, but I don't care about that because that does nothing to improve my position. There I go again, thinking about myself..Maybe I am cut out to be a "peacock".

[Green Army]

I think what AL pilots are doing is great, I wish all pilots did the same. Stand up for the proffesion we all love. Dont let people like MOL and DM force us into something we dont want to!

But I also think by striking we do just that what MOL wants and that will leave us with nothing and by sitting down and talk to the management we win the most. But I think we need to take the thread of striking of and wait what AL does. They made it clear...take the strike of the table first and then we can talk.

So to me it looks clear...take it of the table..for now and get on with it! By striking we will be in the hands of MOL and then what?? DM will be sacket when we strike and MOL will increase his shares to 50% because every invester in running away as fast as they can.

Believe me I am fully aware of the situation and I am behind all the pilots that are willing to show some back bone and say no!:=

[Visual Calls]

by sitting down and talk to the management we win the most.

The difficulty here is that THEY REFUSE TO TALK.
The pilots have made numerous offers. They don't want to talk. They want a strike as part of the agenda to bury IALPA.

Believe me I am fully aware of the situation

Not sure you are mate! Your support is appreciated though and I look forward to welcoming you aboard on the same industry standard T&C's already enjoyed by your future colleagues.

[Le Rocket]

Solidarity in numbers

http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitmentban/08IND017%20Request%20for%20Mutual%20Assistance%20Request%20I ALPA%20(Ireland).pdf

[OneWorld22]

oneworld22, am I to presume that your post immediately above is a considered position - or perhaps it is intended as a joke? You sound like someone who has read Chapater 1 of "The Stockmarket for Infants" and now knows how the world "really works"!! (If your analysis is serious I am not sure that there is much sense in trying to sort out the causes of this with you).



Oh please mate!

Not another one who thinks he has a good grasp of how the market works :p

[Iolar]

Another possible scenario-EI pilots strike and are successful in guaranteeing the same T&C for their NI colleagues. Oh, now hold on, the cost of living in NI is less than in the Republic, our NI colleagues have more spending power than us on the same salary-strike! Again the customers are the losers:mad:

[Desert Diner]

Does anyone know exactly what EI's long term plans from BFS are?

[CaptKremin]

Here's the link to Mannions 'Prime Time' interview last night: Prime Time (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0816/primetime_av.html?2280116,null,230)
Just listen to what he said at point 3:15 on the tape.

Mannion was asked on radio today if he'd suspend the hiring in Belfast in exchange for IALPA calling off the strike and holding talks.
His answer was that there'd been enough talking already!

To anyone who suggests the pilots should go back and talk - Mr.Mannion says NO to talks, end of story.
This is all or nothing now.

Regarding OW22 comparing Aer Lingus to Intel - what can one do but laugh. If only. If only.......

This is the aviation business, and there are no Intel's in this business.

Good Luck to all you guys and girls in ALT. It would be truly a sight to see if this became the catalyst for a mass revolt by the Irish pilot community.

[alibaba]

That is not how it works, you are deliberately trying to paint a false picture to justify this stance.

It is an interesting statement Oneworld that you are presuming of me. Will you answer questions put to you and answer the points properly? Or will you carry on playing airplanes in your bedroom and continue logged on to prune 24/7. Do have a job or just like to make a nuisance of yourself wherever you go? I can direct you to the local off license if you feel like creating trouble which presumably you would do, as you talk out of your a***. :eek:

I find it quite amusing that you have the nouce to call me a liar when you obviously have no qualification as a professional pilot or have ever worked in such a profession. :ugh: It is great to see that you understand the intricies of industrial relations and that you understand the basic economics of labour. :rolleyes: I doubt if you even know who Adam Smith is?

You have NO QUALIFICATION whatsoever to doubt what any professional pilot says on this website because in fact you are NOT A PROFESSIONAL PILOT. If you don't mind doing us all a favour and go back to playing with your toy airplanes and your binoculars. There’s a good chap....
Pilots can quite easily recognise exactly what is going on with the BFS base. It is an attempt to break prior agreements and lower T+C's across the board. What is your problem with professional pilots being paid a reasonable amount of money for doing a professional job?

This is how the pattern works by continuing to lower T+C's and rates of pay from base to base. It happens in FR and is known to happen now with Easy with the Spanish contracts. It is a blatant attempt to lower wages across the profession as companies make more and more money. Even you must understand you have to pay for professional labour. It costs a certain amount and can not be avoided. Companies are trying to do this type of lowering labour costs further to earn more money on top of the profits they already make.

Pilots will and should protect their rights and contracts from predatory employers who seek to earn higher and higher profit margins at the expense of their staff. Please do not expect that pilots will take an attempt to lower their T+C's lightly as they will not. Inflation is rising and pilots are losing out year after year as every other profession or skilled labour earn more and more. A qualified electrician or plumber in the local London area can now earn more than a B747-400 skipper out of Heathrow. Can you tell me that the balance is right here? Is the amount of responsibility the same and can the plumber lose his job a minimum of three times a year but more realistically five or six time depending on age, rank and responsibilities? A plumber or electrician probably will not and hence why the balance is now wrong with terms of the profession and the relative wage.

Something needs to be done and the EI pilots have done it. They do not want to strike as they have a vested interest in the continued financial viability of their employer. But please do not expect pilots in companies like EI to rollover why the management try to take them down the path of lowering T+C's such as the practice in FR. You can be sure as has been demonstrated that they will not. They will stand up for their rights and T+C's and how dare somebody who isn't even in the same profession or industry try and make these pilots seem like the bad people in all of this. If you want to look at selfish money grabber’s maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself some questions?

These pilots are only standing up for their current terms and conditions not extra money or holidays to Barbados. What are your motives in this? :hmm: :hmm:

[OneWorld22]

Dear oh dear. Quite a pathetic rant there, throwing the toys out of the pram always a sign of somebody on a major defensive thrust...

Have a quick look at my profile. Feel free to look back at posts I've made here since 1999, you are obviously too lazy to actually do some research before shouting the odds on somebody you don't know..


A qualified electrician or plumber in the local London area can now earn more than a B747-400 skipper out of Heathrow. Can you tell me that the balance is right here?

Are you really as stupid as this question portrays you as?

The rest of your rant is baffling, I dare say you may have a had a few quick scoops on your way home....

Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.

Again, stop throwing up diversions on this topic. AL have made their commercial decision, and it is the pilots who have called the strike and them alone.

But please rant away, it's kind of funny:ok:

[BBT]

Not another one who thinks he has a good grasp of how the market works
oneworld22 it is a well known PPRuNe fact that the only person on this planet who really knows how the market works is yourself. I was not making any attempt to de-throne you, so you can sleep easy tonight in the knowledge that you remain out there all on your own.

[Metal_Mirage]

I have read this particular thread with great interest; and no doubt that most support is for the AL pilots (this is, after all, a pilot site!). Whilst my own background is military aviation, my Uni education was in business and economics; and after reading this, the smart-asses will suggest I should have followed that career-path! But the simple economics, I think, are there for all to see and they are that AL is a company with shareholders and duty-bound to maximise the return on investment - long term- for all those same investors. Yes, AL pilots are shareholders but clearly blind to the long term survival of the company. Belfast is in another country, another economy and NOT tied to the Euro! Inflation is half what it is in RoI, where the cost of living is second highest only to Denmark and the AL pilots are fussing over what looks like pretty good T's & C's to me or Joe Public in another country. You get good money and very good T's & C's that were derived when the gravy train sat in the station; well it's down the track and a reality check is in order because you could be setting up the demise of AL. It needs all the help it can get in the current economic environment and to have some of its own shareholders threaten this action is both short-sighted and quite unbelieveable.

[Visual Calls]

Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.

It's touching that you consider that DM isn't planning on following the well trodden path of MOL with regard to opening new cheaper bases and using these to batter through lower T&C's all around. What a nice man he must be.
How exactly do you see this panning out if it's not a attempt to eventually lower the T&C's all around?
Also, OW22, you are ignoring the central issue here: that management are unilaterally breaking the agreements they freely entered into. Do you find this acceptable?

[OneWorld22]

Do you find this acceptable?


Why, Yes I do.

[michaelknight]

Guys, OW22 is ranting on and on. Stop rising to the bait. There are arguments for and against in all debates. However his last statement says it all when he finds it acceptable for a company to renage on their collective agreements. Enough said. OW22 it's not a personal attack but when you come out with statements like that it's hard to take you serious.

[OneWorld22]

Pre IPO Mannion agreed to adhere to all collective agreements in the ROI and the agreements made in the ROI among ROI based AL employees is not under threat.

IALPA is using the ridiculous example of the post IPO setting up of the Cork base as a guide to what should happen in Belfast!

Surely you see what's wrong with that?

[Visual Calls]

Why, Yes I do.

Fair enough, we all have our moral baseline. Thankfully the western world operates under the rule of law.

Your reading and/or knowledge of the agreements is deficient. But we will never agree, as your understanding of what's right/correct/fair/decent is different to mine. So be it.

[OneWorld22]

Thankfully the western world operates under the rule of law.
And we have courts because two parties often disagree with what they say an agreement stipulated. It happens and there are mitigating circumstances were the Judiciary or arbitrators can scrap existing agreements. that's what happens, it's why we have Labour Relations Commission and a Labour Court.

AL pilots are saying that agreements made by DM pre-IPO in the Republic Of Ireland are somehow now applicable to all bases even outside the country that Aer Lingus may wish to set up base in. AL management are saying no to that and are saying that was never in the agreement...

Fair and decent?? You think it's fair and decent to shut down operations like this? Causing untold disruption to the travelling public, the economy and your employer?

You are on a very dangerous road here and putting the Airline in on a dodgy footing. I said it before, if Mannion were forced out after this ends, when and of it ends, who do you honestly think would accept the Position to lead Aer Lingus? How could it possible have a future when it ends up that the unions call the shots? What do you think will happen eh value of the company?

[BBT]

AL pilots are saying that agreements made by DM pre-IPO in the Republic Of Ireland are somehow now applicable to all bases even outside the country

Can you provide a source for this statement?

[potkettleblack]

Would it be so bad if DM left AL? It is pretty easy to run a company when all you are focussed on is cutting costs. Any fool can do that for a while. Much more difficult to actually generate revenues and heaven forbid market the business and increase the brand.

[OneWorld22]

BBT

The IALPA website gives a nice summary...

http://www.ialpa.net/pressrelease/pressrelease2007-08-16.html

[alibaba]

You’re the one with the toys. :E As I said before. You might need to go and play. :}

Will you answer a question put to you or will you just stay logged on 24/7?

A commercial decision doesn't mean it is right in terms of any employment agreement or in terms of employment practices. What if the decision is not even the right one for the company in the first place? EI is not a poor suffering company on its knees in any shape or form.

What is the problem with using the current T+C's in EI in BFS with the current pilot workforce from EI? Can you answer the question please……

Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.


Can you tell me the differance in the "market place" between BFS and DUB? I know, I know it is 2 hrs up the motorway. :rolleyes: We aren't comparing DUB to Bangladesh here..... What is the problem with pilots getting the same wage for the same job and same amount of work throughout Western Europe? The IAA is the jurisdiction and they will have the responsibility for regulating EI aeroplanes as that is where they are registered and who holds the AOC. It doesn't matter in that respect where the aeroplanes are based. Also the pilots in BFS could be going on Irish contracts. If pilots are not, why not? Other companies such as Easy and FR contract from the registered country most of the time but not in all cases. If they are not, it usually has something to do with splitting the pilot group so it can be more easily played for again lowering T+C's. Every lowering of the T+C's in any one base cause’s pressure on pilots from the higher rate base by management to lower T+C’s to the new lower rate. It will have an affect on the market place also. Even you can understand that.

All pilots terms and conditions are under threat from such a move that is why MOL is so keen to see EI win against its pilots so he can lower his own wage structure and T+C’s against his own pilots. The pilots in EI are having their current T+C's attacked by opening up another base on lower T+C's. CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?

I do believe that somebody answered the general thrust of your statement before with terms of average incomes, house prices and expenditure etc with terms of "market place". This is an attack on the current T+C's in EI. The tactic is used by other companies such as FR and it works hence why the EI pilots will not tolerate this kind of abuse. It leads to different pilot groups in bases being played off against each other for the race to the bottom of the wage race. This has been again demonstrated quite well by FR. Do you not understand that or will you continue to close your ears or shut your eyes to the blindly obvious? I am sorry but I find myself repeating myself here as you choose not to understand what I am saying??????

Again, stop throwing up diversions on this topic

Which diversions? Answer the questions please. There are no diversions, just questions.

EI has every right to make commercial decisions as long as they obey the relevant laws, regulations and agreements of the country of which is its principal base of operations and the relevant country which it seeks to operate from or to. Nobody has questioned that right Oneworld. Pilots understand that BFS might be commercially the right move but not by lowering the current pilots T+C's in relation to opening that base. It is an aggressive and uncalled for gesture by EI managers against its pilots where one was not needed to continue the success in building the company and expanding its route network to becoming more of a success than it already is or could be.

[DrKev]

Another possible scenario-EI pilots strike and are successful in guaranteeing the same T&C for their NI colleagues. Oh, now hold on, the cost of living in NI is less than in the Republic, our NI colleagues have more spending power than us on the same salary-strike! Again the customers are the losers
Oh for Pete's sake, whoever the hell Pete is!! IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT SALARY!! [edit - expletive deleted, sorry] For crying out loud, cost of living is different in Cork and Shannon too. :ugh:

[CaptKremin]

OW22, I know you've been around this site for a long time. So have I.
I've read many of your posts in the past, and often agreed with your comments. You even made me giggle at times.

The stuff you're coming out with now is very new, and quite an eye opener. So out of character!

Either I read you wrong, all along - or this particular issue is in some way unusually close to you - because the hysterics you are throwing are pretty unusual too.

I'm tempted to ask you exactly what that interest is - perhaps you bought a shed load of ALT shares and are worried about your investment?

Whatever it is, I guess we'll never really know, and it doesn't really matter.

You lost all credibility when you replied to Visual Calls question.

You are no more than a troll now, so I'm going to ignore your future posts - with gritted teeth.

All I'll say in parting is, I pray your own clientele treat you as you applaud them treating others. You are patently a man I would never ever want to do business of any kind with, because I detest fraudsters and liars.

If you really are an ex 747 skipper, you've fallen a long LONG way.

[OneWorld22]

Fraudster and liar? Be very careful with the accusations.
Play the ball here and not the man.
You are painting all of this as totally one sided as a black and white issue when it is clearly no such thing. And you still have not discussed how this effects your customers and the long term position of Aer Lingus. Because as I've said you are in a dangerous place now. You've backed yourself into a corner and the general public are baffled by this and you have no public support.

Many of you are trying to stifle debate on this issue, I have already had a PM from one contributor here who was reported for some comments presumably by the pack on here and banned from the thread. It is clear he desire of many is to drive anyone whl dares raise a dissenting voice off this forum. Well I am still here, no warnings from the Mods, no bans so you guys will have to try harder.

You really think Mannion is now some Ogre because he wants to offer differing T's and C's for pilots in another country??
And please, would some pilot here at least try and mention your customers and what you'll do to them next week and how you think they will view AL from now on?

yet again, another letter in the IT today. A fuuny surname given the accusations earlier in the week!

Madam, - Here we go again. Another strike looming at this vestige of the national airline! As a member of the travelling public, may I make a simple suggestion to both sides? Stop the posturing and think of those who pay your wages. Listen to Kieran Mulvey, sit down now and sort it out - as will inevitably happen after untold hardship is caused. The victims of this present debacle will not forget. - Yours, etc,

TONY PEACOCK, Terenure Road East, Dublin 6.

[alibaba]

Answer the questions please Oneworld! Stop evading please.....

[OneWorld22]

What is the problem with using the current T+C's in EI in BFS with the current pilot workforce from EI? Can you answer the question please……

AL management have made the logical decision to offer T's and C's appropriate to the local market. That's what businesses do.

The pilots in EI are having their current T+C's attacked by opening up another base on lower T+C's. CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?

Sigh...no, pilots in EI are NOT having their current T's and C's attacked. These new T's and C's are applicable to BFS, a new base outside the ROI. We can go round in circles if you wish, but that is the crux of the matter. You are simply making an over-emotional, ill funded guess with no basis of proof that somehow that BFS will mean ROI pilots will be threatened.

Every lowering of the T+C's in any one base cause’s pressure on pilots from the higher rate base by management to lower T+C’s to the new lower rate. It will have an affect on the market place also. Even you can understand that.

No it doesn't. you don't know that, again you're guessing, Salaries and T's and C's have increased in many markets around the world, even the Chinese are now prepared to pay US$12,000 for a B747-400 skipper and throw in accommodation and it's often tax free....

Pilots are a valuable commodity now, lessors can't get enough aircraft to satisfy demand. They are charging in cases 1.5% of the total value of the aircraft in monthly lease fees! If AL run their T's and C's down they will lose their pilots as they will go elsewhere....

[Dublin Airgirl]

I'm going to make myself really unpopular here and agree with some of the points made by oneworld, sort of.
EI have made a point of telling the pilot reps that the t&c in belfast will never be used to set the T&C at the dublin base. and they've said that belfast pilots who transfer down to dub will be 'upgraded' to dub rates. basically the idea is that dub and bds will run as totally separate bases.
it's not really the same idea as what ryanair are doing, because as far as i can see the main thing EI are focusing on is work practices not salaries. salary scales start higher, are shorter, and the management has yet to disclose the top level. the idea is that you can progress faster, but only if you work harder. and the general consensus is that the top level will be lower than the top level at dub, which is obviously going to be unpopular. but the basic principle is to move towards more of a meritocracy. so sounds like it'd be a good place to be for a young pilot starting out, but not such a good place to spend your later years. changes will come at dub too, but in reference to pci and not in ref to bds.
aer lingus have, however, made a complete mess of implementing the thing and they're certainly not world leaders at either pr or ir. they should have made it very clear from the outset that any new bases would have separate terms. they should have forged easier transfer routes for pilots who wanted to switch from dub to bds. and they could have adopted a manner less akin to a bull in a china shop.
all mistakes made, and you'd like to think they'd be learned from but ei history suggests they probably won't.
as for the pilots, they're coming off even worse than the management. for the first few days, the logic behind their grievance was totally muddy. apparenlty their letter to DM didn't even outline specifically why they were striking, it just said that they were striking. and from there it got worse and worse. the offer to withdraw from strike if EI did those three conditions looked petulant in the extreme, because they were three completely unworkable conditiosn. for it to be feasible you gotta leave the company some wiggle room, and that left room for none.
so that's my, er, rather long thoughts...

[CaptKremin]

Any striking pilot who expects support from the Irish public would indeed be a fool. :cool:

Its neither needed, nor expected.

Begrudgery Rules, the lads know that.

Its priced in (to use the 'corporate' buzzword).

[An Paddy Eile]

Just a couple of points:

I have heard the comparison between Ireland and Denmark a few times now. Apparently Denmark is more expensive than Paddyland. That would imply that if EI opened a base in Copenhagen they would offer direct entry pilots a better salary, better working conditions and a more attractive pension than that which is currently applicable to the Dublin and Cork pilots so that the package was appropriate to the local market.

ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN CAN SEE THAT THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. THE LOCAL MARKET EXPLANATION FOR OFFERING LOWER T'S & C'S IN BELFAST IS NOTHING MORE THAN A COVER FOR THE MANAGEMENTS REAL AGENDA WHICH IS TO REDUCE THE COST OF EMPLOYING BOTH CURRENT AND FUTURE PILOTS.

No one can dispute that this may make good business sense FROM AN ACCOUNTING POINT OF VIEW, but it does not in any way mean that employees are duty bound to accept it and say nothing.

Regardless of your profession, if your bosses told you are required to take a 15% pay cut, not because the company is against the wall but so that they can increase profits and therefore receive bigger bonuses themselves, you would not accept it. You be a COMPLETE FOOL if you did.

For the past year EI have been asking their pilots to do exactly that. The Belfast issue is the latest addition to the current attack on existing employees, where management, after failing to coerce the pilot body into accepting their plans to dramatically reduce their TAKE HOME PAY, dramatically reduce their QUALITY OF LIFE, while subsidising the huge bonuses that are to be paid to the top level management after the event, have decided to GO AHEAD AND IMPLEMENT THEIR PLANS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY HAVE BEEN AGREED OR NOT. AND YOU EXPECT THE PILOTS TO SIT BACK AND PONDER THE BUSINESS ACUMEN INVOLVED IN THE DECISION?? You really must be mad. Or just stupid. Or perhaps both.

I say bravo to EI pilots. Not just because I am sick to the back teeth of what is happening to the aviation industry, but because i would not find it acceptable in ANY INDUSTRY. This particular dispute is different only because the general public perceive all pilots as those who universally receive six figure salaries for a half weeks work.

There was outcry at the Irish Ferries fiasco. There was anger at Bank of Irelands plans. FUNDAMENTALY, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.

[OneWorld22]

There was outcry at the Irish Ferries fiasco. There was anger at Bank of Irelands plans. FUNDAMENTALY, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.

Nice try but, they are completely different. Irish Ferries was bringing in foreign workers into the ROI and paying them in some cases 50% of Ferry workers wage. Now you're not really trying to compare the two are you??

AL are opening up a new base outside the ROI. Does Jet Airways pay their local Indian pilots in Delhi the same as their Kennedy based American pilots? What don't you listen to the post by Airgirl? The BFS base will not determine the ROI T's and C's, they are being treated separately. You can't go around guessing and claiming that this will happen when you have no proof whatsover that it ever will.

[michaelknight]

US delegation backing Aer Lingus pilots
Saturday, 18 August 2007 07:32
A US-based union, the Allied Pilots' Association, which represents American Airlines' 12,000 pilots, is sending a delegation to Ireland this weekend to support Aer Lingus pilots who are planning a 48-hour strike on Tuesday and Wednesday.
The Association's President, Lloyd Hill, said the efforts by Irish pilots to ensure that the Aer Lingus management complies with the terms of their collective bargaining agreement is a struggle for pilots worldwide. The dispute centres on the airline's opening of a new hub in Belfast.
Source:http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0818/aerlingus.html

[rubik101]

The last paragraph of the article tells me that the strike will fail to have the desired affect. Apart from the financial penalty incurred in paying FR a wedge to 'blackleg', the public will not even notice there is a strike on. After a few week of no pay etc. the Aer Lingus pilots will be back at work. This is the sad reality of the situation.

A spokesman for Ryanair said the company has written to Aer Lingus offering the use of two of its aircraft and crew on Tuesday and Wednesday.

I expect that Ryanair pilots are telling themselves and each other that they will not do the flights from BFS but the sad truth is that they almost certainly will. The penalties imposed by RYR management if they don't fly are just too severe to consider not crossing the picket line. I do hope and pray that I am wrong but sadly, we live in interesting times.

[potkettleblack]

Oneworld you don't really get it do you? BFS based pilots will eventually be used to do rotations into Dublin and Cork. The situation will then arise where there will be an overcapacity of pilots in Dublin. They will either be threatened with redundancy or offered "new" contracts which will bear a remarkable resemblance to the BFS ones.

The same scenario will hold true for whatever new base the company are thinking of setting up.

[puddle-jumper2]

3 words spring to mind what the AI management are trying to achieve here,

Divide and Conquer

Stick with it AI pilots, once they divide you there's no going back.

[the grim repa]

Aer lingus to use two ryanair scab aircraft to operate during next weeks strike.This is the surest evidence that ryanair and its crews are the lowest of the low.The names of those operating will be noted.

[Yahweh]

Just want to say that as a member of the public with no affiliation to AL whatsover, I fully support their strike action. Screw Dm for all he's worth guys :D

As a footnote it will also make my job (ATC) a little easier :E

[Stand31]

:mad::mad:

[Dublin Airgirl]

Oneworld you don't really get it do you? BFS based pilots will eventually be used to do rotations into Dublin and Cork. The situation will then arise where there will be an overcapacity of pilots in Dublin. They will either be threatened with redundancy or offered "new" contracts which will bear a remarkable resemblance to the BFS ones.



only problem with that argument is the company are saying it def won't happen. and by the sounds of it, they'd be wiling to sign an agreement to that effect.
but what you're really missing here is the wider point, pci. changes to the dub base are coming anyway and were coming long before anyone mentioned the belfast word. by the time anyone actually transfers between dub and belfast chances are the stark differences in the t&c won't be as stark anymore...what EI have essentially tried to do is implement their entire pilots' pci wish list in belfast. pci is coming to dub too, but they probably won't get it through in as pure a form. as far as i can see, pci is what this dispute is really about, not belfast. if the pilots could be a bit clearer about what it was they were actually objecting to, and they have been appalling unclear, they might do better in the public support stakes.

[curser]

Oneworld22, I do not find your argument convincing nor do I find your condescending tone helpful.
Are you suggesting that having 1. put in place a lower cost base in Belfast 2. disregarded all previous agreements that don't fit with the new business model and with the ability to operate these aircraft out of Dublin (thereby creating a surplus) that DM will now say " thats it, thats as far as I wanted to go, sure I was only seeing if it would work."
I do understand that you have been playing devils advocate however it is time to either provide a plausible alternative scenario / course of action or accept what 480 dedicated professionals (not fools,head bangers or peacocks) have come to realize-this is a union busting exercise.

[curser]

Dublin Airgirl, Where have you been getting your information? When did DM say it wouldn't happen? As for signing a document, we can't even get them to talk, let alone sign something and just to refresh your memory we are going on strike because they are not honoring previously signed documents.

PCI is indeed a wish list we have had this same wish list for many many years with many many titles, I really don't know how to make it clearer " 1 job, 1 seniority list, 1 contract"

[the grim repa]

ow22,you know nothing of the irish ferries fiasco.if you did you would not be on here offering your self righteous bull****.ask the latvians on those ships now who have already had their terms and conditions savaged.talk to the few irish who chose to retain their jobs on those ships and thus retain their their pensions.how they were put on all the unpopular duties,got the **** end of the stick,e.t.c. until they were forced to leave the company,leaving the way open for the exploitation of foreign european workers.what has irish ferries saved,nothing because most people with any self respect would not set foot on their **** buckets.Rothwell a self confessed mol brown noser.one thing is consistent in that all these supposed c.e.o's have no individual or original ideas.all they can do is plagiarise the actions of others.

My utmost respect to those pilots in aer lingus,who are an example to all pilots.

[curser]

Dublin Airgirl, just reread your post and need to clarify one more point there are no transfers to Belfast, we specifically asked for this and the answer was an emphatic no. Dublin pilots must apply for the Belfast jobs through the advertised process and then if successful resign their position in Dublin and start in Belfast on lower T&C's. Now think, does it sound like anyone could go for this or has DM engineered this strike?

[Dublin Airgirl]

yeah, i know there are no transfers at the moment, what i meant was that people had been making the point previously that there could eventually be transfers between the bases and if that were to happen the company has said that everyone at the same base would be paid on the same scale, regardless of the terms and conditions of their original belfast. that's all i meant.
as for dm's comments on belfast conditions not affecting dublin ones, that's been recorded several times in this week's national media.

[Stand31]

:OSo naive it's actually kinda sweet!

(Sorry, maybe it's just my views are coloured by previous management dealings.) We already have agreements. That's why were on strike. Management only accept the bits that suit them. Don't worry you'll soon see what kind of company you work for. Your pilot colleagues are the ONLY people who care about you.

[REPAIMP]

Please note: Ryanair pilots are NOT scabs.

IALPA has formally asked all IFALPA member associations to co-operate fully with their employers in operating additional/replacement services in/out of Ireland during the strike. This obviously includes our own members in Ryanair!

[potkettleblack]

Airgirl. This is the company that has a collective binding agreement with its Dublin and Cork pilots. So if it has an agreement with them all then why do you think they decided to draft up new terms and conditions for the 150 or so new pilots that were recruited in the last year or so. Included within these new T&C's was the little matter of paying for your own A320 type rating as well as a higher number of hours before performance pay kicked in. At no time did the company go to the union and try and negotiate. Instead it just pulled out the new contract for the new joiners to sign when they got the handshake and welcome aboard speech at head office. This is just one of a myriad of other issues that the pilots are striking over.

Now surely if management were to be considered truthful then they wouldn't pull stunts like that now would they? But they do and as stated above they continually cherry pick what they want and change T&C's at will. Hence why the pilot body will not trust them as far as they can throw them.

[thebeast]

This is the surest evidence that ryanair and its crews are the lowest of the low.

err thanks for that Grim , i presume you include yourself in this description then?

As for RYR opperating the flights I would imagine that it is all total BS, surely the Lingus management would use any other company on earth to cover flights as opposed to giving it to RYR and letting MOL score some major publicity. Even cancelling the flights would appeal more.

As for the main issue, it is bound to lead to a future split and gradual reduction of T&C's. So good luck to all Aer Lingus pilots, if you guys can't make a stand then theres no hope for the rest of us!!!

[redout]

Taken from RTE,

Aer Lingus to use Ryanair planes during strike

Saturday, 18 August 2007 10:31

Aer Lingus has accepted Ryanair's offer of two planes to provide cover for the 48-hour strike planned by pilots for next Tuesday and Wednesday.
A spokesman for Aer Lingus said the company will pay full commercial rate for the planes.
Aer Lingus said the owner of the planes they lease will also provide the crew.

Aer Lingus Chief Executive, Dermot Mannion, said earlier that there would be no going back on the decision for now. He also issued a direct appeal to Aer Lingus pilots not to go ahead with next week's strike.

Seems a tad bit odd and ironic that they choose to except ryanair's offer considering they dont exactly see eye to eye and it was ryanair who suggested the EGM . O'Leary must be loving this.....

[curser]

How,how are there going to be transfers between the bases soon airgirl?!?

All pilots paid the same at a base. Aircraft will be moved out of Dublin and based at Belfast, Gatwick, .... and Dublin will absolutely lose aircraft to these bases (because it will have a higher cost base). No more aircraft means no more commands, jobs or career prospects in Dublin ever. There will never be an opportunity to bid back to Dublin as it will for ever be in surplus and fighting a rear guard action to protect its own T&C's. Result, the net degradation of T&C's at Aer Lingus.

As to your last point. It is simply not true. DM has not committed to say it will have no effect because he knows it to be incorrect he is doing this to reduce his cost base. Now wake up, no one wants this strike but DM and if we are to succeed then all of us need to be resolute. Hold the line, airgirl.

[potkettleblack]

DM has finally lost the plot well and truly. I am sure MOL must be wringing his hands together right now.

I bet the two aircraft are already in at the paint shop being sign written with a nice anti AL slogan. Perhaps leaflets to be handed out to the affected pax offering them discounted fares for life. Just like his millionth pax got all those years ago (not). You couldn't have written the script better and DM has taken it hook line and sinker. Its almost laughable if it wasn't so sad that this bloke was in charge of the airline.

[minuteman]

Just a thing of note for those debating the FR "assistance":

IALPA asked all IFALPA pilot associations to extend full co-operation to their employers in putting on extra service in/out of Ireland on Tuesday and Wednesday next. This includes IALPA members in FR.

I do accept it will be interesting to discover where those crews are being sourced within FR...

...either way the only way the EI pilots will win is to stick together!!!!

[rubik101]

Maybe we need another thread for this issue? The question of what happens if and when the Fr aircraft pitch up to do the Aer Lingus flights is an interesting one. There will be no need to cross picket lines as the aircraft will simply fly in from elsewhere, pick up the PAx and depart for LHR or wherever. I can't see how this can be stopped.
Sad to say, there will be enough FR pilots to man these flights, ad infinitum. Remember, most of them are not even in a union and no matter how much they dislike the idea, they will do as they are told, as they always have done in the past.
RYR are probably in talks with easyJet management too, if the rumours about a strike in orangeland are true!
God help us all!

[Leviathan]

All the crews I bump into around Asia, think this is a righteous stand. There is an overwhelming deferential respect for the EI pilot group and this action.

I'm looking forward to me days off in Ireland from the Asian grind and arrive back in DUB (I hope!) on Tuesday night, where and when can I stand with the lads and show some support?

Respect from the deep blue sea....

[papa2andcharlie]

Thanks for the support.

If you are in Dublin, you can find a map to the IALPA office (A good place to start) by looking at the bottom of the contact page on the IALPA website

http://www.ialpa.net/contact.html

[JW411]

the grim repa:

"Aer lingus to use two ryanair scab aircraft to operate during next weeks (sic) strike".

"The names of those operating will be noted".

I think you need to revise your definition of scab. To my mind, the definition of scab would be an Aer Lingus pilot who crossed an official Aer Lingus picket line or else a pilot, not employed by Aer Lingus, who crossed the line to sit in an Aer Lingus pilot's seat in an Aer Lingus aircraft.

How you can use the term for wet lease aircraft and crew is beyond me. You may remember the Australian pilots' strike of 1989? Ansett had to wet lease aircraft from all over the world including some from Britannia for example. Are you telling me that the Britannia crews were scabs for flying their own aircraft on a wet lease? As, I am sure you are well aware, Britannia is a BALPA company. Maybe they don't agree with your definition either?

I have never worked for Britannia, Ryanair or Aer Lingus but I think we should get our definitions right.

Has it ever occured to you that the more wet leasing that Aer Lingus have to do the better? It is a very expensive exercise and usually gets them back to the negotiating table faster.

Finally, why should you note the names of wet leasing pilots? Are you planning to take them down a dark alley in Dublin and duff them up? If so, I think you might need some help.

[Bearcat]

I hear O'L is sourcing IALPA FR members to crew the AL flights with IALPA FR reserves.....JEEZ this this has all the ingredients of a blood bath.

[potkettleblack]

Ah it all makes sense. MOL must be concerned that with the history of the DUB based FR guys joining IALPA/REPA and taking him to the labour court that if the AL pilots were successful then he might have more on his hands to deal with later on. Hence use the FR IALPA guys and try and get a quick score with the media. Such sad little games.

[alibaba]

OW22, you are quite obviously blinkered as again you answer nothing which An Paddy Eile has put to you. I might be a little presumptuous but I think you have no Legacy carrier experience and as such you have never had T+C's that are worth protecting. You have only tried to discredit part of the post while the thrust of the post is quite obviously right.

It seems from your type of posting that you might be working for a Irish contract agency. Do you not see that a good proportion of pilots do not want to contract and want fair and well set out T+C's.

Anyway to answer your points;

AL management have made the logical decision to offer T's and C's appropriate to the local market. That's what businesses do.


BFS and DUB is the same local market. There is realistically no difference. This point has already been answered anyway by An Paddy Eile.

Sigh...no, pilots in EI are NOT having their current T's and C's attacked. These new T's and C's are applicable to BFS, a new base outside the ROI. We can go round in circles if you wish, but that is the crux of the matter.

Sigh... Yes pilots in EI are having their T+C's attacked. Why can't the BFS base be under the same T+C's? It is the same market and it is regulated and contracted under Irish law so why does it not follow the same conditions? Again it has no bearing of where the base is. A base in Stockholm would be more expensive than Cork but you get paid the company rate. If you don't like it you don't go to that base, simple.

You are simply making an over-emotional, ill funded guess with no basis of proof that somehow that BFS will mean ROI pilots will be threatened.

I'm not emotional at all to this matter, but I do see the dangers of what this type of management practice can do to pilots and their jobs and profession. On the matter of proof, I have given the example of FR and Easy with relation to Easy's Spanish contracts and FR's multi base, multi contract drive down on base by base costs and T+C's. Look at the current pay deal mess FR is on with multiple contracts and agreement after agreements being broken by management. Hence the court cases FR currently have ongoing with its staff and past cases. Both these companies are doing this type of practice to try and drive down labour costs. It in turn has an affect on the other bases. I have seen this first hand. The management play each base off against the other. I understand where you are coming from in some respect OW22 but as somebody who is currently in the middle and who is and has experienced this type of behaviour and action. It is a defined strategy to lower T+C's across the board. As a retired pilot you must be able to see that people are more closely involved in this and can see it for exactly what it is, more so than yourself? Pilots are posting here who have prior experiences of this strategy. What is your problem with believing your past fellow colleagues who are telling you that this is exactly what is happening? :(

No it doesn't. you don't know that, again you're guessing,

I have answered that above. I am not guessing and have seen it first hand. This strategy has been played out on me and other colleagues.

Answering some of dublingirls comments;

it's not really the same idea as what ryanair are doing, because as far as i can see the main thing EI are focusing on is work practices not salaries. salary scales start higher, are shorter, and the management has yet to disclose the top level. the idea is that you can progress faster, but only if you work harder. and the general consensus is that the top level will be lower than the top level at dub, which is obviously going to be unpopular. but the basic principle is to move towards more of a meritocracy. so sounds like it'd be a good place to be for a young pilot starting out, but not such a good place to spend your later years.

This is exactly the same as what FR is doing. You get paid a little more at the start so it leads to you enjoying the base for quick short term and even possibly medium term gain but in the long run you will suffer greatly. This deal seeks to entice you to stay but there are no good viable long terms prospects with a pension being a bi-word for a joke. You also don't necessarily progress quicker the harder you work. Also who decides who is working harder and to a better quality? What justifies promotion etc? We will all be somewhere in our latter years dublingirl and we should all realise that. This is a point in life where we will all be. This is the point where you will be preparing for your even later years but now without the ability or resources to do this as you would have liked. :{ There is also the point that this is not just about wages. There is a lot more to T+C's than your pay. Which is what quite a bit of this argument is about.

I will ask again what is the problem with offering the same T+C's as the rest of the company?

only problem with that argument is the company are saying it def won't happen. and by the sounds of it, they'd be wiling to sign an agreement to that effect.

Will that be the same bit of paper the old agreement was signed on? Because they just ripped that up and threw it in the bin......:\ If they do not stick to an agreement how can you trust them on another agreement? :confused:

changes to the dub base are coming anyway and were coming long before anyone mentioned the belfast word. by the time anyone actually transfers between dub and belfast chances are the stark differences in the t&c won't be as stark anymore

They are not coming anyway if the pilots can help it. This is what pilots on here are pointing out and hence why EI pilots are striking. :ugh: This is a blatant attack by management on current DUB T+C's. It is quite clear to what either sides reasons for action is. ;)

[OneWorld22]

BFS and DUB is the same local market. There is realistically no difference. This point has already been answered anyway by An Paddy Eile.

They are not the same market. They have totally different economic realities and it wasn't addressed/ You can get a 4 bedroom house in Belfast for £215K or EUR316!! And that is in an upcoming area. Do you know what you would pay for that house in Dublin?

Even in an upmarket area a 5 bed house is £400K or EUR588....! Do you know what a 5 bed house would cost in Castleknock, Malahide, Portmarnock even in Swords...? That is a massive difference between the two areas just on house costs. Have you ever seen the difference between the prices of cars between here and the UK? There is a massive difference.

Why can't the BFS base be under the same T+C's? It is the same market and it is regulated and contracted under Irish law so why does it not follow the same conditions? Again it has no bearing of where the base is.

Are you really asking that?? So again, a US multinational should have exactly the same terms of employment offered here as they do in the US? Even though there is a different tax system, fiscal environment etc etc??

Again you're trying to excuse the actions here of AL pilots when there is no excuse for this. Simplistic guessing as to what might happen in the future....

And yet again, tumbleweed blows through this thread when the word "Customers" is mentioned. No pilot here seems willing to discuss what it means to them or their possible future attitude to AL. Amazing.

AL does not exist simply for your benefits and your pay packet.

[potkettleblack]

All this talk of house prices is very enlightening yet you still seem to fail to grasp the whole crux of the issue. That is the management of AL are going to one day undermine the entire pilot body of the airline and give them pay cuts if they are let away now.

From your profile it says you are a retired pilot. Perhaps you got out when the going was good and its a case of I am alright jack thanks. The same thing happened at BA when the pension was closed to new joiners. The old timers looked after themselves. All the AL pilots are fighting for is a fair deal for everyone, not a pay cut.

[alibaba]

“Simplistic guessing”. Do you not trust your fellow pilots when they tell you something is happening to them or not? It is currently happening with other companies.... You might want to remove your friends and family from EI pilots if you can not trust them then….

If you choose to believe me or not matters little to the argument it just shows your stance to be untenable that CURRENT pilots are experiencing these phenomena. I find this quite sad as somebody else has said "you have fallen a long way". Again you choose not to answer anything put to you about FR or Easy or any other company for that matter!!!

This is the same local market and make no bones about that. This is also not just about wages it has everything to do with rostering agreements and many other things contained under T+C's as a whole........ Just on the point of local markets, I think it was quite well dealt with on post 45 and 56 of this thread. People understand what the implications are of getting cheap labour in to do the same job in the same "local market".

You must be able to understand globalism and global economics even on a basic level..... Surely you know that there is in many ways no "local markets", everything will affect each other. Even China is starting to increase pay levels as you have stated. Primarily because EU levels are so high so it has an effect on companies in China to increase pay levels to try to increase the amount of expats to crew a/c on order.

So would you agree that pilots in Stockholm should be paid more than Cork? Still not answered and not likely to be I think!

AL does not exist simply for your benefits and your pay packet

No it does not but it presumably puts food on pilots table!!! Anyone with half a brain cell understands what and how an airline affects an economy and what the effect of a strike will have on the economy and customer relations. Do you not think people do not consider this when making such a decision as extreme as resorting to strike action? Such a decision is not taken lightly.

And yet again, tumbleweed blows through this thread when the word "Customers" is mentioned. No pilot here seems willing to discuss what it means to them or their possible future attitude to AL. Amazing.


Some customers might understand that EI pilots will not let there T+C's go down the toilet like many other companies have done and that the race to the bottom will be stopped for the benefit of all pilots... Does the consumer understand what ethical business practices are?

How much legacy experience did you say you had again? :}

VORTIME; Flight decks are more automated to increase and improve safety not to reduce pilot salaries and T+C's..... :=

[BBT]

Oneworld22 I quoted you in post 172:

AL pilots are saying that agreements made by DM pre-IPO in the Republic Of Ireland are somehow now applicable to all bases even outside the country

And I asked you the following question:

Can you provide a source for this statement?

You replied (post 174) by giving me a link to an IALPA Press Release. I have read the Press Release and it does not say what you stated. Can you please specify where it says what you claim?

[OneWorld22]

Well BBT, it should be quite clear what the IALPA press release is stating, That after the IPO the cork base was to be given the same T's and C's as the DUB base and therefore that's what IALPA and co are going on with regards to BFS, a base in another country! And didn't the Flynn Report recommend that AL should be allowed to open new bases outside the Republic on local pay and conditions?

Alibaba, FR opening bases elsewhere in Europe has NOT driven down T's and C's at DUB.

You guys can continue to throw up smokescreens till the cows come home. You're like a Jackal pack, descending on anyone who dares disagree with you. And your mode of argument is to throw up red herrings everywhere. Giving us simplistic guesses at what might happen in the future. That's a ridiculous way to conduct labour relations.

And food grief, he mantions Customers but only to chastise them about undertsanfing "Ethical" business practices!! :p
Your hysterical meandering and simplistic guesswork and selfishness is leading this airline down the toilet. Reading some of the hysteria here, you'd swear Mannion was proposing 50% pay cuts and a 20% increase in hours or something!

Get a grip lads.

[alibaba]

A pay cut is a pay cut. Is that simplistic enough for you?

Alibaba, FR opening bases elsewhere in Europe has NOT driven down T's and C's at DUB.

Yes it has ask any FR pilot what happened in 2004 and how the bases are played off against each other. It is simplistic but it works to the detriment of everyone else.

Have you thought that the majority of posters might not agree with your point of view on this OW? Active professional pilots no less, in current airline employment. Unlike yourself….

Again you don't answer questions. Do you have a problem with answering them? :\

[OneWorld22]

What pay cut???

And you don't answer questions on your customers. Because you don't give a toss about them. This is a about your selfishness and your willingness to do untold damage to your employer over a totally minor issue like slightly differing conditions on a base in another country,

It's a disgraceful way to behave towards your employer and your customers and again, I can tell you you have 0 public support on this. Yet you guys don't seem to care about that either...

[BBT]

Oneworld22, it may be what IALPA is going on about is clear (in your interpretation), but it is not what it says. Your interpretation is inconsistent with the facts as I understand them (and I posted above on the basis of reports in the Irish Times). The key fact seems to be that an argeement by Aer Lingus to engage in talks was broken - and I read the IALPA statement to which you referred me as being entirely consistent with that.

I prefer the Irish Times to your interpretations. And you certainly are not short of interpretations and opinionated, but questionable, assertions.

[alibaba]

Answer the questions...

Here is one of many.

So would you agree that pilots in Stockholm should be paid more than Cork? Still not answered and not likely to be I think!


You obviously can not answer questions because the right answers go against your opinion. :ok:

[OneWorld22]

BBT, those talks were about Irish bases not bases outside the ROI...

The Irish Times was not reporting what you are hinting at. You've got an angle on this as well so yu can stp pretending you are some impartial observer on this.

Aer Lingus will lease aircraft from Ryanair to cover strike
Ciarán Hancock, John McManus and Martin Wall in Shannon

Aer Lingus is to hire aircraft from Ryanair to provide cover for the 48-hour strike planned by its pilots for next Tuesday and Wednesday.

The airline confirmed it has leased two planes from its rival and largest shareholder. "Customers come first," said a spokesman for the airline. A Ryanair spokesman confirmed Aer Lingus had been offered planes. Neither airline would say if the planes would be crewed by members of the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA), which represents both Aer Lingus and Ryanair pilots. This is affiliated to the Impact trade union and is in dispute with Aer Lingus.

Ryanair, which this week increased its stake in Aer Lingus to more than 28 per cent, has been a vocal critic of the plan to move routes from Shannon to London Heathrow to Belfast airport that triggered the dispute. It has called an extraordinary general meeting of Aer Lingus to try and have the decision reversed. Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary has branded the move "insane".

Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion said the strike was "wholly unnecessary" and would damage "all of our interests associated with the organisation". Impact is objecting to the plan to hire pilots for Belfast on inferior terms to Dublin-based pilots.

Mr Mannion said the airline had exhausted every option under State industrial relations machinery to resolve the dispute."I am calling on individual pilots in Aer Lingus, who have shown great loyalty to the organisation in the past, to please cancel the strike action for Tuesday and come back to work," he said.

He said the IALPA branch of Impact had not put to its members the terms of a report produced by industrial relations consultant Phil Flynn under the auspices of the Labour Court. This recommended the company should be allowed to recruit staff at new bases on local market rates.

Michael Landers, the assistant general secretary of Impact, said he was confident none of Aer Lingus's 500 pilots would accede to Mr Mannion's request. He said the union did not have difficulty with IALPA pilots working for Ryanair and in effect breaking the strike by Aer Lingus IALPA members.


Alibaba, you're losing it mate...Cost of living is probably lower then Cork. look at the Economist tables sometime for instance. Only thing higher in Sweden is the taxes. Look at the cost of food, the cost of cars, Childcare, heath costs, houses etc etc

Now about your customers Ali, anytime mate when you;re ready...I presume you have no problem with the FR lads transporting your customers to make sure they aren't overly disrupted?

[alibaba]

Alibaba, you're losing it mate

Not quite....

The cost of living in Stockholm, Copenhagen, Paris or Oslo is less than Cork.
I have heard it all. :D

The economist is that magazine with the red top is it not. :rolleyes:Does Adam Smith write for them as I have heard he knows what he is talking about. Talks quite a bit of sense that man you know, you might want to read what he says about Labour Relations and how it can have a dramatic affect on business profitability. ;)

Aer Lingus dispute reflects deep unease over management's agenda

(The Irish Times Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) Staff are fearful that outside bases will undermine their position, writes Martin Wall , Industry Correspondent

In a report earlier this year, the industrial relations consultant Phil Flynn pointed to a "deep distrust" between Aer Lingus management and its pilots as one of the principal reasons why the parties had failed to reach agreement between themselves on work practice reform at the company.

The lack of trust highlighted in the report, which goes far wider than the rows over the Shannon-Heathrow service or the establishment of a new base in Belfast, is central to explaining how the company and the pilots' union Impact have reached the brink of a 48-hour national strike that would cause disruption to tens of thousands of passengers.

Staff in the company - and not just pilots - have argued that Aer Lingus has shown an insatiable demand for change in recent times. They contend that every time they made concessions, management has simply accepted them and within a short period returned seeking more reform.

Staff have also maintained that management's position seemed to be that anything short of achieving its full agenda would be unacceptable, a point also noted in the Flynn report.

However the company, for its part, argues that times have changed. The airline is no longer a semi-State but rather a publicly quoted company with obligations to maximise profits for its shareholders (including the staff, with a 12.5 per cent shareholding).

Management has contended that it is critical for the airline to reduce its costs and review work practices that have grown up over the years. It believes this is essential to allow it to match the flexibility shown by its competitors.

Shortly after its flotation last year, the company commissioned external consultants to benchmark its entire operation against best practices in the aviation industry.

This resulted in an initiative to curtail costs and improve efficiencies across the board that aimed to save 20 million in the first year.

The company has argued that although staff costs per passenger on average have been decreasing in recent years, without action this figure would rise again, a trend which would be unacceptable to shareholders.

That this cost containment plan was put forward by management just as it was seeking to fight off an aggressive takeover bid for the airline, launched by Michael O'Leary and Ryanair, did little to help its prospects of being accepted by the unions.

The Flynn report suggests that the move by the company to commit to making specific changes in a notice to the stock market, without prior consultation even with its own line managers, was another contributory factor in talks on the plan going nowhere.

The cost containment plan, or programme for continuous improvement, as it was officially known, effectively resulted in a process whereby the company sought to negotiate changes in work practices at home while planning for the establishment of new bases outside the jurisdiction.

At the new bases, the company sought to operate more or less from scratch without any of the so-called restrictive practices that applied in the Republic.

Management is absolutely adamant that it will not allow the existing work practices which have grown up in the Republic to be exported to its new bases abroad.

It also wants to introduce new pay scales and pension arrangements for pilots recruited at its planned base in Belfast, which would be the model for future expansion elsewhere.

The union, for its part, has sought as far as possible to hold on to the terms and conditions it secured in negotiations over decades. It is also strongly opposed to a two-tier system that would see pilots outside the Republic having different pay and conditions.

The Flynn report also specifically states there is a real fear on the part of pilots that the company would use the establishment of outside bases to undermine the existing conditions and bargaining capacity of Irish-based pilots.

Impact has also argued that the existing working agreements do not constitute restrictive practices but rather merely set out definitions on the amount of work pilots can be asked to do.

Aer Lingus management has said that significant progress has been made in negotiating with the union on work practice changes in relation to its short-haul network. However, it has maintained that a lot of work remains in relation to the long-haul area, where it sees most commercial opportunities in the future.

Management has, in particular, pointed to the agreements with the union governing "stick time" - the length of time a pilot can be at the controls of an aircraft - as an area where it wants reform.

The company has argued that, under existing arrangements, the nine-hour flight time on the planned route to Orlando in Florida would involve having three pilots on board. It is looking for flexibility to fly the route with only two pilots. It says the requirement for three pilots was a significant factor in this service being discontinued on a previous occasion.

Management has also indicated that it wants to review the issue of performance pay for pilots. Pilots, under regulation, can only fly for 900 hours per year. Management says pilots in Aer Lingus qualify for performance or premium pay after flying 520 hours, whereas in other competitors this threshold is 750 hours.

The pilots' union has disputed that pay scales in Aer Lingus are above the industry norm.

Both sides are also at odds over plans by the company to reduce the "stopover" time pilots have after flying to the west coast of the US.

Last night it appeared that the parties were moving closer to agreeing to meet for talks at the Labour Relations Commission in a move to avert the strike planned for Tuesday and Wednesday.

However, on the substantive issue of whether pilots in Belfast should be employed on new terms and conditions, union and management seem as far apart as ever.

[OneWorld22]

alibaba :p:p


I think you're still living in the 1980's when Ireland was dogged by near 25% unemployment and was the poor man of Europe...

Things have changed here over the past decade, maybe you're not aware of it? Ireland is one of the most expensive places to live in the world now. Consumer goods, House prices, cars, food, childcare etc etc are all among the most expensive of any country. And that is not restricted to Dublin. Cork has been booming and real estate down there is a fortune...And of course all the regular costs in Cork will be the same in Dublin childcare, health, consumer goods and food, cars, insurance road tax and so on.

Are you even Irish ali?

[BBT]

Oneworld22, the Irish Times did report what I said. You did not have gounds for your claims about what IALPA said. Your post above is simply an attempt to divert attention from the fact that you selectively quoted from an IALPA document in an attempt to mislead.

And you got caught.

You continue to refuse to accept the simple fact that Aer Lingus made a commitment to talks and then broke that commitment - as was reported by the Irish Times and cited by myself in an earlier post.

You seem incapable of doing anything other than sprout your one-track and narrow worldview.

[OneWorld22]

BBT are you actually pretending that you're impartial here?

There are no impartial posters on this thread. I am sticking up for your employer and your customer, you're saying sod your employer and your customer and are trying to stop your employer from going ahead with it's commercial decision to open up a new base in another country, over unfounded allegations that it will erode conditions in the ROI.

AL is not a semi state company anymore, you can't keep holding your employer to ransom everytime they make a decision you don't like.

[alibaba]

You can attack me all you like but by each post you make yourself look more and more outcast.

An extreme point of view with no valid facts but just opinions and hot air.... :*

Still no questions answered. :confused:

Don't expect that pilots will let you get away with inaccurate and inappropriate comments on PRUNE as they will not. As has been proved and continually will be.

[BBT]

One last time. I am NOT representing myself to be anything. (But I can confirm that I am not an Aer Lingus employee, if you are suggesting that I am).

I just asked questions and you replied. I check out my sources and I checked out yours. That is not a pretence at impartiality, it is just a way of conducting myself. You seem to have a completely different way of conducting yourself - which, as a matter of fact, can be seen by just reading your many, many posts and examining their content.

That's it. Let it be. It's over.

[irish laddie]

IALPA's Evan Cullen appeared on the lunchtime news in Ireland today stating that he had no problem with the hiring in of RYR aircraft as their grievance is with EIN management and not the travelling public.

the grim repa:

"Aer lingus to use two ryanair scab aircraft to operate during next weeks (sic) strike".
The names of those operating will be noted".

"The names of those operating will be noted".It would appear from this that some of the posters on this forum,threatening to name the RYR staff operating the flights to be quite a bit off union message.
One would have hoped that members of this profession would act in a less childish manner than pursueing these tactics which are more akin to a schoolyard row.

[OneWorld22]

All questions have been answered me dear ali. You have not answered questions as to what happens your customers.

BBT you have quoted carte blanche about what IALPA and the AL pilots are saying via what they have said to the IT! That's not being impartial, just quoting indirectly what the union is saying. You are claiming AL made a commitment to talks, did these talks include the possibilities of opening up a UK base? If so show me the proof of this.

So I'll ask you as well BBT, what about the customer in all this?

[PIGDOG]

I agree Irish Laddie

Surely a strike is about withdrawing your labour to make a point (a point which I think is very valid) and hopefully force the upper managment into changing its ways, not about forcing your opinion on others. Your battle is not with fellow pilots, nor pilots of another airline.

It is the unions (read union members) choice to strike. Don't feel you have to bully or intimidate others, with no affiliation to the union, to join your cause.

[alibaba]

I have answered your question as to customers.

Anyone with half a brain cell understands what and how an airline affects an economy and what the effect of a strike will have on the economy and customer relations. Do you not think people do not consider this when making such a decision as extreme as resorting to strike action? Such a decision is not taken lightly.


Some customers might understand that EI pilots will not let there T+C's go down the toilet like many other companies have done and that the race to the bottom will be stopped for the benefit of all pilots... Does the consumer understand what ethical business practices are?

Now answer the many put to you not just by me but by the many others. Post 183 and An Paddy Eile could be a start and I am not talking about the Irish ferries dispute either. You choose to ignore the many statements put to you.

You still choose not to talk about FR or Easy but you dismiss the points put to you as if you know exactly what has gone on in these situations. But the reality is that you know very little. You have no facts to provide that this doesn't happen, but you would only have to have read the many threads on either company to realise it does happen.

Just on a side note, it matters not to the context of the argument of whether I am Irish or not. I like the side track though. Dodging in and out of questions and throwing the odd bit of smoke up to try and detract from the central arguments. :suspect:

[OneWorld22]

I'm not dodging anything. You're just desperately trying to introducing new irrelevancies into this discussion to try and get away from the unjustified action by the pilots!

I've answered on FR, I have said the other bases have NOT downgraded the DUB base. I have answered on that silly question put back to me about customers and ethics when I was asking about their opinion on their customers! I have answered on costs of living which you made yourself look very foolish as you clearly do have not done any research on this and the differences between countries.

And STILL no words about the customers! No sympathy, no apology for letting them down. Instead disgraceful words and threats against the FR crews who will try and help out AL customers next week...

The central "argument" remains. AL pilots are going on strike because the company has made a justifiable decision to open a BFS base and offer different terms and conditions. Pilots are going on strike because they claim with no proof of this, that their conditions will deteriorate in the ROI.

[alibaba]

Dodge, dodge and dodge.

Oslo is more expensive than Cork. I can assure you of that. It seems like you want facts and figures. Here is an idea, go look it up yourself! The main basis of the statement is if an airline opens a base in a more expensive place than its own main base. Should it pay extra with improved T+C's at the new one?

You have not answered about FR or Easy. That is it. Bases in FR have been getting opened with lower and lower rates, that is a fact. The issue over 200 to 800 conversions has been used against pilots in DUB for FR. Bases and then contractors being played off against each other to remove the DUB pilots or there T+C’s.

You're just desperately trying to introducing new irrelevancies into this discussion to try and get away from the unjustified action by the pilots!


How is any point brought up been irrelevant? You just choose not to answer the questions directly and in detail. You are the one bringing up irrelevancies to the subject at hand about whether I was Irish or not. Not me.

Answer the points brought up in post 183 also.

I will agree with you on one thing OW. That is I can not see an apology to the general public on the IALPA press release. Now somebody please tell me I am wrong but maybe one is warranted if not already there? That I will agree should be there. I also think the management should apologise for the inconvenience to the pax.

[Visual Calls]

I have said the other bases have NOT downgraded the DUB base.

DUB pilots are earning less now in nominal terms than they were 5 years ago. In real terms, that's wholesale destruction of pay.


Instead disgraceful words and threats against the FR crews who will try and help out AL customers next week...



The threats were made by a ryanair pilot in fact.
Evan Cullen has said today that there is no problem with ryanair pilots flying hire-ins, as the dispute is with "management, not the customers."
IFALPA have also been asked by IALPA to lift the ban on hire-ins.
Seems to me that were you to ascertain the facts, you would see that that IALPA are doing their best to inconvenience the customers as little as possible.

[OneWorld22]

IALPA are doing their best to inconvenience the customers as little as possible.

:p :p :ok:


ali baby, you're still not giving justification for this strike! You can't use Ryanair and Easyjet as to what you think might happen. Fact is you're still guessing! The ROI conditions are not an issue here, they can't be because nothing will happen to them! Go on what you know are facts.

Of course FR bases in Poland and elsewhere have opened on lower T's and C's relative to say Dublin. What do you expect? Or do you really think that Ryanair pilots in Poland should be on exactly the same pay as ones in Dublin?

I also think the management should apologise for the inconvenience to the pax.

????

Eh, what?


Who is calling the strike? Who is refusing to work next week??
Oh I see.....nasty, wasty Mr. Mannion of Mordor has frced you into this action none of you wanted eh?! :rolleyes:

[alibaba]

No pilots are on strike because they want the two days off to go the cinema with the kids and go and have a Indian with the Mrs. :ugh:

Get real. Why would the pilots want go on strike? Answer your own question? While you’re at that, answer all the other points. FR salary changes happen within ROI and UK. More expensive places being paid less than less expensive place to live which are being paid more. Your argument doesn't stand up as it is already happening in other companies and this change in T+C's is always the first step to the reduction in T+C's across the board.

Another post down nothing answered. You do have a certain pattern going on here OW.

[OneWorld22]

You do have a certain pattern going on here OW.


As you do Ali baby, jeez, hello kettle, pot here.....

[atse]

Alibaba, stop feeding the Troll.

[CamelhAir]

So the IALPA position is that ryr pilots can fly to break the strike. As far as i can see, this is a legalistic thing to avoid the sympathy strike issue.
I would call upon any ryanair pilots told to fly on strike breaking duties to go sick. In fact, glorious would be the day that ALL ryanair pilots take a few days off sick.
I, for one, will be on the EI picket line. We at ryanair are almost totally responsible for the debacle that is the profession in Ireland, so the very least we can do is show some support for those we've undermined. Who's with me?

[Stand31]

:mad::mad:

[mini]

"Are you even Irish ali?"

thats a bit rich, coming from a blow-in...:E

[Lord Lardy]

Flynn was not aware of Aer Lingus Belfast plan

Sunday, 19 August 2007 13:00
The industrial relations negotiator who worked with Aer Lingus management and pilots over the company's plans to set up new bases outside the Republic, has said he was unaware of any proposals for Belfast.
Phil Flynn told the pilots' union in a letter that had he known of the plans, he would probably have recommended that pilot concerns about the establishment of the base be dealt with through joint discussions.
IALPA says Mr Flynn's statement vindicates its position that the Belfast base does not come under the terms of the Flynn Report, and undermines Aer Lingus' claims that it does.
Advertisement

The Union is now asking that Aer Lingus reconsiders its offer for talks regarding the staffing of the Belfast base.
Aer Lingus says at the time that Mr Flynn was working on his recommendations, no new bases had been definitively identified.
Since then, the airline says, Belfast was identified as a new base in the spirit of the recommendations of the Flynn Report.

Source:http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0819/aerlingus.html

[crashandburn]

From todays RTE website:
Flynn was not aware of Aer Lingus Belfast plan
Sunday, 19 August 2007 13:00
The industrial relations negotiator who worked with Aer Lingus management and pilots over the company's plans to set up new bases outside the Republic, has said he was unaware of any proposals for Belfast.
Phil Flynn told the pilots' union in a letter that had he known of the plans, he would probably have recommended that pilot concerns about the establishment of the base be dealt with through joint discussions.
IALPA says Mr Flynn's statement vindicates its position that the Belfast base does not come under the terms of the Flynn Report, and undermines Aer Lingus' claims that it does.
The Union is now asking that Aer Lingus reconsiders its offer for talks regarding the staffing of the Belfast base.
Aer Lingus says at the time that Mr Flynn was working on his recommendations, no new bases had been definitively identified.
Since then, the airline says, Belfast was identified as a new base in the spirit of the recommendations of the Flynn Report.
Mr Flynn says he was aware the company was considering future bases in North America, Eastern Europe, Britain and Cork.
But he said the information he received from the company did not include plans for a base in Belfast.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0819/aerlingus.html

[CaptKremin]

Aer Lingus management are playing silly buggers and that message is now getting out loud and clear.

Anyone in business who considers contractual agreements as empty promises to be ignored at whim is - as I said - a liar and a fraudster.

A Liar, because thats what such a person makes of themselves by freely entering into contractual agreements they have no intention of honouring;
And a Fraudster, because wilfull breach of contract is more than just a lie - it is deception, and patently fraudelent.

Stand31, there is no point in talking to a troll - give it up.

[OneWorld22]

:p:p :D


Good man CaptKremin, keep flinging the mud and smokescreens. And keep playing the man. Don't get personal Kremin, I warned you on that.

I said there are occasions in which agreement can be broken. (and indeed which have been backed by the Labour Court in the past)

[BBT]

Is this bait from a hungry troll I see before me?

[delwy]

Flynn 'unaware' of plans for Belfast hub

Irish Times – 16:49

It has emerged that industrial relations consultant Phil Flynn who adjudicated over talks on Aer Lingus's plans to set up new bases outside the Republic was not aware of the airline's plans to move operations to Belfast.

In a written response to a query made by the Irish Air Line Pilots Association (Ialpa) Mr Flynn said he would probably have recommended that any concerns about such a move should be dealt with through joint discussions.

Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion said this week that a report produced by Mr Flynn under the auspices of the Labour Court recommended the company should be allowed to recruit staff at new bases on local market rates.

The airline says that at the time of the report that it had yet to decide on a location for its new base.

However Mr Flynn made his remarks in reply to a request by Ialpa for him to clarify the situation.

Ialpa said Mr Flynn's statement vindicates its position that the Belfast base does not come under the terms of the Flynn Report, and undermines Aer Lingus' claims that it does. President Evan Cullen call on Aer Lingus to reconsiders its offer for talks to negotiate on the terms and conditions for the Belfast jobs.

[crashandburn]

Mannion writes letter to IALPA pilots
Sunday, 19 August 2007 19:53
Dermot Mannion has written to pilots union IALPA, inviting them to talks aimed at alleviating their concerns surrounding the setting up of a new base in Belfast.
In the letter, seen by RTE News, Mr Mannion says the company accepts a recommendation made by industrial relations troubleshooter Phil Flynn, that the company should engage in discussions to explore how such concerns can be alleviated.
http://www.rte.ie

[Bearcat]

Hopefully sense can be seen on both sides, get into talks, hammer things out on an equitable basis and move on.

One world 22 ,having read all your jump on the band wagon posts, you either are a wanna be, working for AL in a marginal capacity or working in a slurry pit, but your posts are imo are fire brand contentious, and of the H20 dream variety..

No one wants this industrial unrest....pilots as family folk in their wildest dreams grimace at the thought of discommoding family holiday plans .hopefully with the tentacle of Mannions letter tonight vis a vee Flynns comments, the strike can be called off, all parties sit down, engage, and sort their grievances, work things out, there will have to be will be give and take on both sides and bingo BFS base is an entitly with all on board reasonably happy ....

[45989]

One world 22
little needs to be said................Get a life!!

[snaga]

Last Updated: 20/08/2007 12:47 - Irish Times

Pilots accept LRC invitation from Aer Lingus

The Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) has accepted an invitation from Aer Lingus for joint talks at the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) and will call off its strike when talks are confirmed.

Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion last night wrote to the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA) calling on the union to withdraw its strike notice and to immediately engage with the company.

In a statement issued a short time ago by IALPA, the union said it would suspend the strike when Aer Lingus provided written confirmation that it agreed to the talks.

The news that the strike action is likely to be averted will come as a relief to the estimated 40,000 passengers who would have been affected by the 48-hour walkout by almost 500 pilots.

The pilots proposed to strike over the airline's plans to hire pilots for the new Belfast base on less favourable terms and conditions than its pilots flying out of the Republic.

[OneWorld22]

Good news, talks to be confirmed

Last Updated: 20/08/2007 12:47
Pilots accept LRC invite from Aer Lingus


The Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) has accepted an invitation from Aer Lingus for joint talks at the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) and will call off its strike when talks are confirmed.

Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion last night wrote to the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA) calling on the union to withdraw its strike notice and to immediately engage with the company.

Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion

In a statement issued a short time ago by IALPA, the union said it would suspend the strike when Aer Lingus provided written confirmation that it agreed to the talks.

The news that the strike action is likely to be averted will come as a relief to the estimated 40,000 passengers who would have been affected by the 48-hour walkout by almost 500 pilots.

The pilots proposed to strike over the airline's plans to hire pilots for the new Belfast base on less favourable terms and conditions than its pilots flying out of the Republic.

It also emerged last night that the Taoiseach has asked Government officials to examine options for airline connections to the region.

A report in this morning's Irish Times says the group will begin work in the coming days and that Cabinet will consider the issue in 10 days' time at its first meeting after the holidays.

The group has also been asked to examine the

[INLAK]

Pilots offer to suspend 48hr strike
Monday, 20 August 2007 12:48
The Irish Airline Pilots' Association has offered to suspend its two day strike if Aer Lingus agrees to enter talks at the Labour Relations Commission.
In a letter to Aer Lingus Chief Executive Dermott Mannion, the pilots' union said it welcomed the prospect that Aer Lingus and the union could avoid a damaging strike on Tuesday and Wednesday, which could affect up to 50,000 passengers.
The union proposes that Aer Lingus and IALPA should jointly approach the LRC with a request to facilitate joint discussions.
IALPA says that if it gets written confirmation that Aer Lingus agrees to this proposal it will suspend the strike.
The union says it welcomes mediator Phil Flynn's suggestion that joint discussions take place on how IALPA concerns might be allayed.
IALPA will be making no further comment until it receives a response from Aer Lingus.
Source: http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0820/aerlingus1.html

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Who's with me?
No one, CamelHair. You can almost hear the crickets chirping.

[the grim repa]

the camel's back.must be afraid the strike will not go ahead.loser extraordinaire!

[CamelhAir]

Welcome back Leo. Seeing as you only appear when things aren't going ryanairs way, it appears micko is getting worried about this situation.
Anyhoo, hope the grass the greener in Germany Leo, than the distinctly brown shade it is elsewhere.

[Bearcat]

strike off...:D

[OneWorld22]

Phew!

Glad for all concerned. Customers, the airline and yes, it's Pilots as well.
Hopefully an agreement can be reached now.


Aer Lingus pilots call off 48-hr strike
Monday, 20 August 2007 15:24

Aer Lingus pilots have called off their two-day strike which was scheduled to begin at midnight.

In a letter to Aer Lingus Chief Executive Dermot Mannion, the pilots' union, IALPA, welcomed the company's acceptance of the pilots' proposal for talks facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission.

They said that as a result the strike planned for tomorrow and Wednesday is now suspended.

[INLAK]

Now,wouldn't it have been much easier for management :rolleyes: to have just sat down and talked in the first place, instead of instigating their failed poilcy of engineering a strike and trying to force the pilots to capitulate?!

[Visual Calls]

Yes it would INLAK.
Now that the pilots have demonstrated that we won't role over like ryanair pilots, hopefully we can negotiate in an adult fashion, as is prevalent elsewhere in the industry.
As demonstrated by our financial commitment to keeping AL independent, the pilots can be the best friend of anyone seeking to strengthen the airline. So let's hope a mutually acceptable agreement is now thrashed out.

[CaptKremin]

Now,wouldn't it have been much easier for management :rolleyes: to have just sat down and talked in the first place, instead of instigating their failed poilcy of engineering a strike and trying to force the pilots to capitulate?!
Yes, but there's more than one way to capitulate - I hope there is no sell-out.

[Stand31]

:mad::mad:

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

it appears micko is getting worried about this situation.
Must be lonely at the barricades, CamelhAir, with just yourself, the Dim Repa and a tepid flask of hot chockie for company. There’s nothing sadder than an old warrior who won’t admit, or as is more likely in your case, doesn’t know that the battle’s lost.

REPA, your IALPA funded fiasco has been comprehensively emasculated, its only lingering legacy the disfigured stickers calling for membership of the “punity disunity community” plastered all over our brand new aircraft, and now you’re reduced to spending your time gathering support for IALPA’s latest outrage of the indefensible.

Rather than appearing when our Alexander is in trouble, I rather think I lead the trumpet chorus. We now own thirty percent of EI, we have a massively expanding operation, the most profitable airline on earth by a very long way, margins of over 20% that would have even the most stoic airline CFO’s the world over salivating like hungry wolves, and that sounds like trouble to you, does it? Sounds like he’s doing alright to me.

You, on the other hand, chose to celebrate all this unbridled success, victory after victory, by calling for tacit support of the idea that a bunch of millionaire dingbat airbus drivers who actually believe the sweet bull**** IALPA has been feeding them for years that they’re better than anyone else, can reasonably object to Aer Lingus management choosing to do something cleverer with all those gorgeous LHR slots than operate half empty A320’s to SNN and ORK? What a strange world it must be, to live in CamelhAir land. Just like the stickers, you and those like you will peel, fade and become irrelevant.

Poor Dermot Mannion. Imagine running a company where even some of its pilots think as you do. If he had any balls at all, he’d break IALPA once and for all, exposing them and the drooling, polyester pygmy who leads its for the incompetent boobs and self-destructive imbeciles that they are. Left to their own devices, IALPA will destroy Aer Lingus through suicide by union. Its only hope of a future now is Ryanair.

[the grim repa]

run out of latin phrases?better at the barricade with friends than in a glass office with none.good idea to put that tot o rum in the hot chockie.still a loser!!!!

[Bearcat]

ehhh welcome back Leo, your posts always add colour to the forum.

In defence of my collegues whom you call millionaires, only those who have cash have it due to outside resourses as in family etc. No millionaires have been made flying with the green team, where as in the early days with FR many an FR pilot made a stack full thru your share options....alas that was in the past. :ok:

[bia botal]

One good thing to come out of this is that at least DM hasn't gotten into bed with MOL, well not yet anyway. Cool heads prevailed and now hopefully a result can be found where everyone wins, not just greedy managers who force the will upon others no matter what the cost.
Aer Lingus management choosing to do something cleverer with all those gorgeous LHR slots than operate half empty A320’s to SNN and ORK?
Careful leo your not towing the party line there, even your own Messiah wants aer lingus to remain on the route, according to MOL they are very profitable.

[CamelhAir]

Bearcat, you're wasting your time with responding logically. Leo is craven to the school of management that believes pilots should be merely grateful for their job and how dare they expect to actually be paid to do it (except himself of course).
His antipathy to his fellow pilot stems from his past life in which his inability to get command seems to have caused bitterness towards all that did. Ryr provided him with the much needed status, including (albeit temporarily) a training command, when no one else would, hence his bowing and scraping.
The level of begrudgery and one-up-manship in this place is truly frightening and Leo is merely the pprune face of it.

[Dublin Airgirl]

well this has turned into a very productive thread hasn't it???
on the actual talks, do you guys think ei pilots would settle for just being told that their t&c won't be impacted by belfast? if management offer to gauarantee that, and i expect they will, would the pilots strike position become untenable? assuming that management sign off on belfast t&c not influencing dub while keeping belfast t&c unchanged, that won't do anything to help the 20 or so pilots who want to move from dub to belfast and keep their own terms and conditions ....

[CaptKremin]

a bunch of millionaire dingbat airbus drivers
Here's a man, who lives in country mansion, with hundreds of acres of land, herds of pedigree cattle, chauffeur driven limos with private 'taxi plates' and a net worth in the hundreds of millions - attacking the 'greed' of ordinary working people.

His own workforce live on clippings of tin, while they sweat to enrich him even further each day.

Are there words to describe the crass hypocrisy of that?

Come the revolution Mick, you'll be the first agin' the wall....