Aer Lingus Pilots to Strike

[bia botal]

bia - that is mol you are reading.you can address him directly.what you address him as is up to you.he does share the lhc id with some other clown though.
Soz there grim, i was thinking t'was our (joyful) friend from germany.

[OneWorld22]

So far, so good...



Tuesday, August 21, 2007
Last Updated: 21/08/2007 18:51
Aer Lingus talks adjourned to next week

Talks between Aer Lingus management and the airline pilots' union Ialpa at the Labour Relations Commission have been adjourned until next Monday.

The talks started last night hours after the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (Ialpa) branch of the trade union Impact suspended the planned 48-hour strike by pilots for today and tomorrow in a row over the pay and conditions to be offered to pilots based at the airline's new hub in Belfast.

Aer Lingus pilots are optimistic that a solution can be found in the row over job conditions at a new hub in Belfast, they said.

Further talks are scheduled to continue on Thursday and Friday in a bid to resolve the deadlock.

The Irish Airline Pilots' Association (Ialpa), represented by the Impact union, had threatened to halt all Aer Lingus flights today and tomorrow, causing travel chaos to 40,000 passengers.

Impact assistant general secretary Michael Landers, who was joined by six senior pilots at the talks, refused to comment on what was discussed or the conduct of the negotiations.

"Both sides have agreed not to comment on the detail of the talks. Impact is optimistic that a resolution can be reached but we cannot put a timescale on that. A resolution will be reached when it is reached," he said.

Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion attended the first session of talks yesterday evening and was understood to be available today if needed.

[900]

Whatever the outcome of the talks, what you can be sure of is that the move towards flexibility and market-based pay won't halt here and nor should it.
Pilots, other airline workers (not necessarily airport workers) and certain folk in the medical & legal professions must some day go the way of all other luddites bent on protectionist self destruction. Why are you so scared of modern employment?
Some people watch airplanes as a hobby. Others watch restictive practices go they way they should.

[potkettleblack]

Don't feed the trolls. He is more than likely of the opinion that if we all took a massive pay cut then airfares will be even less than they are now and he can travel around for nothing at our expense. Needless to say he has overlooked the fact that management will give themselves huge bonuses and possibly pass on a bit to shareholders if pushed hard enough but rest assured the travelling public won't see any of these proposed savings!

[atse]

and possibly pass on a bit to shareholders if pushed hard enough Not so. Shareholders are lucky to be allowed to buy Ryanair shares. They really don't have a right to any return on their investment, but in return they have the honour of allowing MOL to do as he deems fit with their money. Shareholders are nonetheless marginally better than stupid customers and certainly worthy of more respect than stupid employees.

The world looks different from where Leo sits. Interestingly, recent days saw the passing the "Queen of Mean" (Leona Helmsley), who had a talent for contemptuous behaviour towards employees and creative accountancy (among other attributes). Her mausoleum will reportedly cost $1.4 million. But it won't really help her legacy, which was created by her behaviour. As the Daily News (NY) put it: Every era needs a few rich people who think their money makes them better than the masses, and ... Helmsley was the poster gal for the attitude.
In any case, "The Queen of Mean" is not a nickname easily shed. If she had any hope of refurbishing her image after her prison term, it pretty much ended when she got an additional 150 hours of community service for assigning employees to take care of some of her original 750.
Having money is a manageable offense as long as you don't seem to be acting like it makes you better than those who don't.
Now I wonder if Leo would have the slightest insight into the parallels ....

[Captain Galactic]

I wish the EI pilots well against this relentless attack on their pay and working conditions. I have watched with great disappointment how a career as an airline pilot has declined to such a point it is not worth the hassle anymore. The good old days are well and truly over!What happened to a bit of respect for the people who look after your safety when travelling by air. There is a plentiful supply of cheap labour now and that is all the beancounters care about. Well all this will end up biting the beancounters in the ass when all they can muster up are the dregs of society to fly their jets!

[ihtlucy]

I've read this thread with interest and first must express my sympathy for those affected by the EI/pilots' move.

I'm in the aviation industry, but not working for an airline. I do use air travel a lot , and in particular EI.

My issue with many of the previous posts is that they miss the key point that whether we like it or not we live in a society where we are subject to market forces. Whether EI pilots like it or not, FR has been largely responsible for a massive decrease in the cost of flying and that has stimulated (in large part) the growth in passenger numbers - particularly in Ireland. This (probably) means that there are more pilots and crew - more jobs. If you take some of the views in this thread to their ultimate conclusion, EI will go out of business and you will all end up working for FR - that is simple market forces. I am a professional too, and was once a member of a union and went on strike. Now I accept that my skills have a market value and that is what I will get. As it happens my skills (I'm a Chartered Engineer) are now in increasing demand and my salary and conditions (ie my marketability) have improved. Also, if I go and live in a different place my skills will be worth more or less depending on the market.

As a passenger, I regret the pilots' proposed action, because I had to cancel my EI flight and book with FR instead. Will that mean I do the same in future? No, because I dislike the general attitude of MOL and his cohorts. It did annoy me though...(as did seeing the 44 days/yr holiday for EI pilots!).

I accept that my job is very different to a pilot's job. But, the market will win in th end...

[CaptKremin]

As a passenger, I regret the pilots' proposed action, because I had to cancel my EI flight and book with FR instead. Will that mean I do the same in future? No, because I dislike the general attitude of MOL and his cohorts. Well there you go Lucy, FR may be cheaper, but you chose to fly Aer Lingus.
Why?
Perhaps because COST isn't always the sole motivation in choosing a product?

Aer Lingus has a particular product, which many people seem to like - just as you do.

So does BA, Virgin, Lufthansa, KLM, Air France and many other carriers.

Why do you see the argument as a 'beat Ryanairs costs or die' one?

I don't know which Aer Lingus service you use, but Ryanair are a shorthaul airline, and Aer Lingus are a mix of Long and Short haul.
The guys in Aer Lingus who have reached the highest point of the pay scale are flying long haul, and are instructors. Their remuneration is in line with that of other Long Haul carrier instructors.

You must compare apples with apples.


It did annoy me though...(as did seeing the 44 days/yr holiday for EI pilots!).Where did that figure come from? The "Meeja"?
Its rubbish. Just like the 'pilots work 18 hours a week' rubbish.

But even if it were true - what are you comparing with? Aplles with apples? Take a look in Flight International Magazine this week. There's a job there being advertised with 31 days on and 31 days off.

A long haul pilot works shift work at the back of the clock - flying through the night duties up to 16 hours long, when 'normal' people are tucked up in bed at home. They fly trans-continental services with consequent jetlag effects. They often must day-sleep in hotels, instead of resting in their own beds.
Time off for these guys has to reflect the kind of stresses they are subject to as a result, and comparing their time off with office workers is just a sick joke.

Keep flying the green flag.

[papa2andcharlie]

....(as did seeing the 44 days/yr holiday for EI pilots!).
I really hate comments like these. Mainly because they're just thrown out there and NEVER checked.

I can ASSURE you I get no-where NEAR 44 days. But just as an aside, can I ask you to count these days:

Days off over Christmas:
Days off over Easter:
Days off for Bank Holidays:
Days off for Mid-Terms:
Days for leave:

Ours looks like this:


Days off over Christmas: 0
Days off over Easter: 0
Days off for Bank Holidays: 0
Days off for Mid-Terms: 0
Days for leave: High 20ies to low 30 (except very senior capts).


Does that sound fair? Does it compare to you? What's that, you actually get the same or more?

Don't even start on the 18 hours a week line either....

[papa2andcharlie]

Just beat me too it CaptKremin!

[900]

I agree wholly with ihtlucy. Surely always the customer comes first?
PR, good or bad, will hit the punters right twixt the eyes. Pay & benefits above the market will be spotted (I know I'm boring) and impact on support or otherwise in the industrial struggle.
CaptK and Papa2 -when you joined, were you aware that planes fly 24/7./365(ish) and tend to get busier still during holidays? If you were, what's the problem? If you were not, then you can legitimately complain.
Oh:
Easter, New Year, XMas, May Day, Whit weekend, etc. etc. Who else works?
Police, nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, fire & rescue workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, shop workers (yes them too), traffic wardens, council workers, ...
Not a convincing argument to me.

[Lord Lardy]

With the greatest of repect 900 you are not a pilot yourself. Not really much of your business. Sorry to be so blunt! Aer Lingus pilots are in an argument with the companies management not the passengers. If joe soap wants to fly with someone else then they are free to do so. Don't try to tell me that they won't be back if the ticket price isn't right.

[jwirl]

I think 900 you're missing the point of the arguement. Capt K & P2Cwere not bemoaning the fact that pilots work unsociable hours and bank holidays.They were merely pointing out that we do, that our leave days include these (if you were to subtract these from our leave entitlement the leave we do get is similar to most jobs except it's bloody hard to get summer leave) and that because the media throw out erroneous figures like 40 odd days and absurd lies that we only work 17 hours a week, you shouldn't believe it.
Other workers work these also and are justifably compensated for it. I have no problem with that and don't understand why anyone would begrudge that we are also.
I am a professional, I have trained hard and continue to train to do the job I am employed to do. It is a highly skilled, often stressful job but I enjoy what I do. There seems to be a mixture of old fashioned Irish begrudgery (at which we excel), ignorance and a desire by some on this forum to say that pilots should allow their pay, terms and conditions to be eroded until we earn minimum wage and work at the whim of our employer.

When I visit a surgeon I will pay top dollar to get the best. If I need a solicitor I will get the best I can afford. When I fly I want to fly with a professional, safety oriented airline, not one who hires anybody as long as they are cheap.
This race to the bottom has to stop, otherwise it will reach rock bottom and then those complaining here will then complain about shoddy standards in aviation and how this could be allowed to happen and why they allow monkies to fly planes.
You pay peanuts...... You continually erode your staff's working conditions you stop getting professionally minded people.
Would anyone else on here be happy if their employer unilaterally imposed changes to AGREED working conditions without consultation? Would you accept it and not protest? Would you happily bend over and take it? If so go work for Ryanair. MOL would love to see you.

[MarkD]

I thought EI flew 24/7/364... aren't DUB/ORK/SNN still shutdown on 25.12?

[jwirl]

"I thought EI flew 24/7/364... aren't DUB/ORK/SNN still shutdown on 25.12? "

No. Aer Lingus is 24/7/365 on long haul.

[Radar]

Guys,

Unfortunately, what the posts from the likes of 900 and lucy do illustrate, is the gulf between the reality on the ground and the perceptions of joe public (even those who claim some inside knowledge) fed as they are by media simplification and management PR spin. No matter how hard you try, you're on a hiding to nothing on that front .... regardless of how many time you've had agreements reneged on.

Keep up the good fight !

[CaptKremin]

Too true.
Why do we bother?
Because if we didn't try to inform the ignorant they'd believe every f**kin word they ever read, no matter how incredible.
Where sanity steps aside begrudgery just waltzes in.

I read another article today which said pilots in Aer Lingus work 10 hours per week! If this figure continues to decrease exponentially - the aircraft will be flying themselves!

But hey - they already do...we know that! The Indo told us, so it must be true! :ugh:

Seriously though - you despair for the half-witted public. Imagine all the other bull**** we are all fed, day and daily, by the wasters who call themselves journalists. Arseholes one and all. Professional Liars!

[jwirl]

.... Journalists who themselves are part of a very strong union and who have been known to go on strike whenever THEIR terms and conditions are touched. :rolleyes:

[Dublin Airgirl]

when was the last time we saw a journalists' strike?? happens quite a bit in the Uk but can't remember a single example in ireland...
as for what you read in newspapers, i think generally the line they go on is 900 hours a year, which can erroneously get worked down to how every many hours a week (though it'd still come out at more than 10). basic problem is lack of comprehension between flying hours and working hours...
i remember last year there was a show a documentary on RTE one night about trainee doctors hours and they showed guys who had been on duty for 48 hours straight performing operations. the following night the guys from the pilots unions were on prime time or whatever giving out about pilots hours and the public were hugely unsympathetic. the idea was, if doctors can operate and work 120 hour weeks, what are these pilots whinging about when their weeks are so much shorter? that logic misses a crucial point though - if a sleepy surgeon drops the ball, that's a maximum of one person dead, if a pilot's overworked and messes up, you could be talking hundreds of casualties. which is why the flying public should want their pilots on teh top of their game.

[CaptKremin]

when was the last time we saw a journalists' strike?? happens quite a bit in the Uk but can't remember a single example in ireland...*Sigh*....I did a quick Google on key words "irish journalists strike industrial action nuj" and got 127,000 hits.

The first page included the following:

Irish journalists ballot over pension scheme (http://www.nuj.org.uk/inner.php?docid=1237)(hypocritical bastards!)
Belfast Telegraph journalists strike over pay dispute (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/05/08/story634490469.asp) (Is that the "S" word!?)
Regional journalists vote for strike (http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0310/newspapers.html) (Not again!)
Journalists in Northern Ireland Vote For Strike at Independent Newspapers' Flagship (http://www.ifj.org/default.asp?index=375&Language=EN) (Shall I stop now? Oh...just ONE more!)
Industrial action by Hacks at Tony o'Reillys cash cow (http://www.village.ie/Ireland/Society_&_Justice/Tony_O%92Reilly%92s_cash_cow/) (it's too good to miss!)

It was a strike by the hacks which permanently closed the Irish Press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irish_Press).
Seems you've not been doing your homework AirGurl. Tsk Tsk.

as for what you read in newspapers, i think generally the line they go on is 900 hours a year, which can erroneously get worked down to how every many hours a week (though it'd still come out at more than 10). basic problem is lack of comprehension between flying hours and working hours... 'Lack of comprehension'? That does ring a bell. But I think you're too generous. Try - "Willfull Misdirection", or maybe "Lazy Journalism", or maybe even "Blatant Lies"?

i remember last year there was a show a documentary on RTE one night about trainee doctors hours and they showed guys who had been on duty for 48 hours straight performing operations. the following night the guys from the pilots unions were on prime time or whatever giving out about pilots hours and the public were hugely unsympathetic. the idea was, if doctors can operate and work 120 hour weeks, what are these pilots whinging about when their weeks are so much shorter? that logic misses a crucial point though - if a sleepy surgeon drops the ball, that's a maximum of one person dead, if a pilot's overworked and messes up, you could be talking hundreds of casualties. which is why the flying public should want their pilots on teh top of their game. Oh God...*groan*....look this has been raked over a dozen times on this forum, must we do it again!
Don't forget the 'surgeons don't die in operating table accidents' argument! Its essential reading. :ugh:

[Dublin Airgirl]

capt kremin, what i said was how many journalists actually strike, not how many journalists threaten to strike and i was referring to ROI, rather than the North as I'm not that familiar with the situation up there.
So for the record, the journalists who balloted over the pension stakes did not strike (and they're the same regional journalists you mention down below), the belfast telegraph journalists are not in teh ROI (though as far as i'm aware they didn't strike either), the RNAI journalists (the regional ones again) didn't strike either, that link you have about the Indo's northern journalists is actually the same dispute as the belfast telegraph and Indo Ireland staff didn't have any industrial action either.

you've not provided me with a single example of journalists actually striking here. what you've given is a host of duplicated references none of which actually resulted in strike action. another point of clarification is that 127,000 references is a fairly meaningless number, as duplication is rampant on google, and 127,000 references could relate to 127,000 disputes or 10. the press is known for its naval gazing so i'd be willing ot venture the actual number of disputes is at the lower end of the scale.

so, as you might say yourself "sigh" or "do your homework", or whatever other condascending phrase is de rigeur with you these days. you come on here and present yourself as this judgemental bastion of accuracy, knocking down the contribution of anyone who doesnt' share your (fairly narrow) piont of view. given how critical you are of the press and their lack of research and accuracy, seems bizarre that your own research and arguments are so blatantly factually flawed.

pot. kettle. black.

[WideBodiedEng]

What amuses (saddens? ) me is the thought of shareholders striking against their own company.

[Tooloose]

WideBodiedEng,

That's a good point of course. But consider this hypothetical situation for a moment. Suppose you work for a company and you buy some shares in it. Soon after that the company, which is profitable, decides that in order to increase its profits it should reduce your pay.

Now you have a dilemma. If you strike to protect your pay the value of your shares might reduce. If, on the other hand, you allow your pay to be reduced without offering any resistance your income for the rest of your career will be threatened and the company will know that they are now free to do what they like to you. What would you do?

Note: before everybody rushes in to say that Aer Lingus has not threatened to reduce the pilots' pay, this is merely a hypothetical situation. Everybody, please feel free to say what you would do.

[OneWorld22]

We'll see market forces at woirk of course in the long run.

If the Terms and conditions offered by AL become so bad they will simply get no new applicants applying. It's quite simple, it's an open market and if FR or AL or any airline reduces T's and C's substantially, they won't get any relevant applicants applying for the positions. They will simply go elsewhere.

[ayroplain]

Nice one, Dublin Airgirl. Very enjoyable to watch you dismantle CaptKremin :D
Reading through the nearly 300 posts in this thread the one thing that comes out loud and clear is the arrogance of those who purport to represent the views of professional pilots. In most cases the only response they can offer is to insult and/or ridicule anyone who puts forward any opinion that differs from theirs.
Tooloose, you are quite right. I would strike if my pay was going to be reduced unless the very existence of my Company was at stake in which case I would have to reconsider. But I would not strike if my Company decides to open a new division in another jurisdiction and employ staff on different terms. Even if those terms were better than mine I would just have to grin and bear it. That's the real world out there in 2007.

[Visual Calls]

The focus here is very much on the nitpicking of whether or not DUB pilots are getting the pay reduction. Which, in fact, is what management seek, as they seek to implement their "Programme for Continuous Improvement", which would see a large pay reduction for DUB pilots. Needless to say, the money they seek to take from us in DUB won't be paid to BFS pilots as it stands.
However, the bigger picture is of great importance. It's very simple, new, lower paid bases will eventually do DUB work, the DUB base will stagnate and will become the "overpaid" base, ripe for attack once again. So this situation is very much an attack on our T&Cs. Just because it isn't immediately obvious (well it is if you care to learn the lessons of corporate history) doesn't mean it won't happen.
The ryanair apologists can deny this scenario all they like, but it is exactly what happened to the DUB pilots in ryanair. Could it happen again? Of course.

It's quite simple, it's an open market and if FR or AL or any airline reduces T's and C's substantially, they won't get any relevant applicants applying for the positions.

The airline market doesn't work according to the classic economic models. Ryanair have demonstrated that they can get people regardless of T&C's. Little boys who want to fly will do anything until they realise after a few months that it's not quite what it cracked up to be. By then it's too late. In a career airline, not so much of a problem as people don't move on. In ryanair, big problem as on they go, to be replaced by more naive youngsters. So the experience level and conditions level stay on the floor. That's the competition, who don't value experience. By not standing up, AL will go the same way, dumbing down the profession across the board. Is that what is wanted?

[CarbHeatIn]

According to the website prospective Captains do not have to have any jet experience for Belfast base. 1000 hours command turboprop and away you go, here is a nice new A-320. Makes FR look safe. But that's ok, the "market" said so :mad:

[CaptKremin]

capt kremin, what i said was how many journalists actually strike, not how many journalists threaten to strikeO yeah? So why are you hopping on the pilots for just 'threatening' to strike? Did a strike occur? More hypocrisy and double speak.

So for the record, the journalists who balloted over the pension stakes did not strike (and they're the same regional journalists you mention down below), the belfast telegraph journalists are not in teh ROI (though as far as i'm aware they didn't strike either), the RNAI journalists (the regional ones again) didn't strike either, that link you have about the Indo's northern journalists is actually the same dispute as the belfast telegraph and Indo Ireland staff didn't have any industrial action either. And again, for the record, the pilots did not strike either, and the new hire pilots are to be based in Belfast, which is in NI, therefore this dispute is a Cross Border one, and the reference to NI is therefore pertinent.
By the way, the NUJ represents hacks in both GB and Ireland, therefore I presume the GB and ROI members of the NUJ supported the strikes by their friends in the Belfast Telegraph (unless their self serving hypocrisy wouldn't stretch even that far!).

you've not provided me with a single example of journalists actually striking here. Actually I did, but you just didn't bother reading, did you?
I posted this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irish_Press) to a Wikipedia article on the Irish Press strike, where the hacks not only WENT on strike, they actually stayed out for 9 months until the newspaper finally folded! Maybe you'll read it now?


what you've given is a host of duplicated references none of which actually resulted in strike action. another point of clarification is that 127,000 references is a fairly meaningless number, as duplication is rampant on google, and 127,000 references could relate to 127,000 disputes or 10. Well next, in the interests of balance, I searched Google for the key words "ireland pilots strike ialpa" and got a total of just 609 references. Compared to 127,000 I think thats illuminating for a 'fairly meaningless' number.

so, as you might say yourself "sigh" or "do your homework", or whatever other condascending phrase is de rigeur with you these days. you come on here and present yourself as this judgemental bastion of accuracy, knocking down the contribution of anyone who doesnt' share your (fairly narrow) piont of view. given how critical you are of the press and their lack of research and accuracy, seems bizarre that your own research and arguments are so blatantly factually flawed.

Whatever. :hmm:
Your argument is clearly the ignorant one.
Are you a journo? If so please note that 'condascending'(sic) has no 'a' in it. Tsk Tsk.

According to the website prospective Captains do not have to have any jet experience for Belfast base. 1000 hours command turboprop and away you go, here is a nice new A-320. Makes FR look safe. But that's ok, the "market" said so :mad:Its the only way they're going to get applicants. So much for the arguments that 'foreign' pilots will work for a 'fair salary'. They obviously aren't too confident about that!

[curser]

great post CK. :D
Ayroplain, tell you what, go through your life grinning and bearing it. My colleagues and I still have a choice. One more time, the industrial action was about the refusal of management to comply with their own freely entered into agreements. The company is not at stake, so keep grinning and keep bearing it because with your own knocked down sense of self worth I'm betting you look like the happiest guy on Earth.

[carlos vandango]

To assume that EI BFS will be devoid of applicants is somewhat naive. Whether they get the correct number of returned contracts is an entirely different matter. Clearly the management are hedging their bets 'just in case' with the turboprop red herring but I very much doubt anybody with 1000hrs left seat prop will get a real look at an A320. There will be a significant number of applicants for these positions because at the end of the day, if the package isn't right you don't have to take it. EI have said nothing on the actual package other than an inference that basic will be circa £77k. the two airbus operations in BFS/BHD don't come cheap. MYT and BMI are full of senior guys on senior money. I don't think EI will be able to match those figures. EZY basic is around £74k but the total package seems closer to £90k depending on bonuses and alike. Does anybody actually know what they are planning with regards to pensions and duty pay etc? Until these figures come out the whole debate is largely meaningless.

[Dublin Airgirl]

CK, not sure where you've been doing your googling, but "ireland ~ pilots ~ strike" turns up 1,400,000 results, while "ireland ~ journalists ~ strike" turns up 1,150,000. The sheer numbers weren't the point though, the point was that the numbers are completely irrelevant because of the random amount of duplication out there.
I also don't recall "hopping" on anyone for anything, and I try not to resort to hectoring and bullying in my posts. The idea of a forum is that different people can express different opinions. When someone bullies, insults and shouts down any one who's opinion digresses from their own, that pretty much defeats the point.
Funny how you're so into pilots freedom of expression on striking etc, but so unconcerned by the whole freedom of speech thing - ie the freedom of people to express opinions which are not shared by your good self.
My post was not just about journalists v pilots and who strike more, it was about the overall tone you adopt on this forum. It's not condusive to debate, unless that debate involves us all telling you how right and wonderful you are.

[OneWorld22]

Are you a journo? If so please note that 'condascending'(sic) has no 'a' in it. Tsk Tsk.



Dear oh dear, is this really the standard of "debate" we can expect now on this thread?

Pedant of the year award right there methinks....:rolleyes:

For the umpteenth time, this is an open forum. Any registered PPRuNer is free to add to this debate until such time as Danny locks it strictly for Pilots only. And by god, just how boiring would this place be then?!

[ayroplain]

Well done, Curser, you just proved my point :)

[jonjoe]

This is not a debate, just pathetic bickering.

[CamelhAir]

The way to settle this so-called bickering is simple. All those non-pilots on the forum involved in putting down the EI pilots should reveal their occupations. Then everyone else can make uninformed comments about that occupation, pass themselves off as experts in the field, begrudge them their money, demand they work harder and generally put the boot in.
Bring it on if you're brave enough.

[CaptKremin]

To quote LHC ..... "you can almost hear the crickets chirping".

[CaptKremin]

Whether they get the correct number of returned contracts is an entirely different matter. Clearly the management are hedging their bets 'just in case' with the turboprop red herring but I very much doubt anybody with 1000hrs left seat prop will get a real look at an A320. There will be a significant number of applicants for these positions because at the end of the day, if the package isn't right you don't have to take it. EI have said nothing on the actual package other than an inference that basic will be circa £77k. the two airbus operations in BFS/BHD don't come cheap. MYT and BMI are full of senior guys on senior money. I don't think EI will be able to match those figures. EZY basic is around £74k but the total package seems closer to £90k depending on bonuses and alike. Does anybody actually know what they are planning with regards to pensions and duty pay etc? Until these figures come out the whole debate is largely meaningless.
And don't forget to tell us what the cost of the Type-Rating will be, how long the Bond will last, and WHO will do the training, 'cos unless this is all settled it won't be Aer Lingus trainers doing the training and checking, now or in future.
That should throw a large spanner in the works.:suspect:

[chec tunset]

Can't see that being a large spanner really. There are plenty of TRTO's. Many of Europe's airlines are hiring contract pilots who are being checked by contracted trainers. It would obviously be better to have the whole mess sorted but if it degenerates to that level of hard-ball tactics then this would be an option open to them.

[jonjoe]

And a complete all out strike would once again be on the cards for Aer Lingus.
Respectfully suggest you read the previous pages on this subject.

[chec tunset]

:rolleyes:

[CaptKremin]

Can't see that being a large spanner really. There are plenty of TRTO's. Many of Europe's airlines are hiring contract pilots who are being checked by contracted trainers.

Really. Well my information is different. The AOC rules preclude it. Unless they can get a new AOC for Belfast and all subsequent bases.

In any case, who will do the training and checking in Dublin Base when all the instructors there have resigned their jobs?

No strike necessary.

By the way chectunset - what is it you do for a living? Who do you work for and in what capacity. I'm sure you won't mind saying.

[chec tunset]

Shorthaul Captain. UK AOC. No idea what's on your AOC but it clearly reads very different to ours. Would EI in BFS on a UK AOC make your happy?
Perhaps we should know who you are? rank? seniority number? position in Union? how many previous operators you've worked for? I'm sure you won't mind saying :hmm:

[jonjoe]

Presumably you have a Chief pilot, Head of training, etc to satisfy the requirements of the AOC?

[chec tunset]

You mean postholders, of course, and your point is?

[jonjoe]

Then for AL to set up operations on a UK AOC, postholders will have to be appointed specifically for that operation. I think this would be very costly to do for every new base. Also. where would the aircraft be registered? If on the UK register,will they will have to remain in Belfast, and cannot be rotated through dublin for maintenence, etc?

This is only a small aside to the fact of the mutually signed job security and work practice agreements in place, ie. what this whole dispute is over...

[curser]

Chec tunset, I have been led to believe that a UK AOC would be both expensive and probably take over a year, What ever the solution to our issues it will be resolved long before that. Consequently the willingness of our own training and standards department to cooperate will be an important factor. I cant speak for CK, but no I would not be happy to see BFS on a UK AOC. We are one pilot body and we have one set of standards. If you know differently re a new AOC, I would be very interested to hear.

[moomin]

Uk AOC for just three a/c, even with expansion it would be too expensive. Also, UK FTL's allow for 12 hours min rest, IAA FTL's allow for 11 hours and as mentioned previously what about post holders etc.

Also, those going on about ONLY 1000 turbo prop hours, please remember that the EI Part A Gen or its equivalent allows for turbo prop command with 2000 hours total time or 2500 hours for jet command from memory. Neither of which has ever happened due to seniorty. The company will do a deal and so will IALPA, its their style and style of most union/company relationships. Start poles apart and meet in the middle.

[Stand31]

:mad: !!

[Bearcat]

DM and Doctor Liz have gone down a road with no turn back....don't know if they teased out all the scenarios....

[Visual Calls]

dont know if they teased out all the scenarios....

I'm sure they did. Just like they did with the flotation, pulling SNN-LHR, etc etc.

[CaptKremin]

Checktunset - has the AOC penny dropped for you now?
Are you beginning to cop on to the hole Mannion is digging for himself?

And as previously stated on another thread (which I'm sure you've read) I'm a Captain with over 25 years service. I think you can guess who I work for, but seniority number? :rolleyes: Don't push your luck laddy.

[OneWorld22]

Latest update. Impact has written to the LC asking it to clarify if Belfast was included as a foreign base when it made it's recommendation! Surely any reasonable person would classify Belfast as a Foreign base...


Last Updated: 27/08/2007 18:36
Impact queries status of Aer Lingus Belfast base

There is speculation this evening that Aer Lingus cabin crew may join pilots in the dispute with management over the establishment of a new base in Belfast.

This follows confirmation from Impact, which represents pilots and cabin crew, that it has written to the Labour Court querying whether its recommendation on "foreign bases" was meant to include Belfast.

The recommendations, issued last February, said that management should be allowed to recruit staff in foreign bases at local pay rates.

But Impact today published details of a letter of enquiry sent to the Labour Court on August 21st which sought clarification on whether its recommendation on foreign bases was intended to include Belfast.

The union also asked whether the Labour Court understood that the opening of any new base would be at the expense of staff at existing base.

The Court has written to Aer Lingus asking for its observations in relation to Impact's enquiry and has promised to reply to the union's letter once it has received the airline's response.

The move has fuelled speculation that Aer Lingus cabin crew may join pilots in their opposition to management's plan to hire pilots for Belfast on inferior terms to Dublin-based pilots.

Meanwhile management and union representatives were back before the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) today for talks over the airline's new Belfast base.

Discussions on the row, which had threatened to ground the airline's fleet for two days last week affecting around 40,000 passengers, were adjourned at the LRC last Wednesday afternoon.


The dispute centres on whether the Irish Airline Pilots' Association and Impact should have a role in negotiating the pay and conditions for pilots recruited at the new Northern Ireland base.

The union claimed pilots recruited in Belfast would be on worse terms and conditions than those that apply in the Republic.

But the airline insisted pilots would get higher salaries at the early part of the pay scale, although they would not be allowed participate in the defined benefit pension scheme.

Aer Lingus said unions could not be involved in talks on bases outside the Republic.

The pilots' union said last week they were optimistic a solution could be found to resolve the disagreement. Further talks are also scheduled for Thursday and Friday.

[jonjoe]

Where exactly are you going with that comment....?

[Bad Robot]

I thought ALL the Bases were in the Emerald Isle.:ok:

[OneWorld22]

I'm saying that the LC made their recommendation saying that management could apply local market conditions to any new foreign base opened.

Belfast is in another country....

[jonjoe]

Don't you think the political situation in Ireland could be considered a little more complex than that?

[OneWorld22]

Not in an economic/financial sense...

Different currency, differing rates, very different prices....etc

[jonjoe]

I know what you're getting at, but I think this particular example is a little bit more sensitive than say, for example, the base was on Birmingham, etc.
Living in N.I., you are perfectly entitled to be an Irish citizen, hold an Irish passport, etc. This does not apply to the rest of the U.K.

It will be interesting to see how the labour court clarify this position. Flynn already said he was not told Belfast was on the cards as a possible base.

[CarbHeatIn]

a provision in the Good Friday Agreement recognising:
"The birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

From memory there's also a bit in there upholding "equality" for all the citizens of the island

[jonjoe]

Not trying to start a political debate, by the way.

[curser]

I don't like where this is going. The only divide I know is the one I stare at oneworld22 across.

[OneWorld22]

That's the way I like it baby!

[curser]

Lets put this one to bed. The lads are talking at the LRC. There will be lots to talk about within the week....see ya then.

[OneWorld22]

Agree with you. Lets see what the outcome is, seems to be positive vibes coming out, so hopefully an agreement can be made and the airline can move forward and fight off FR.

[CarbHeatIn]

I'm not trying to start a political debate either.
Just pointing out the reason why I believe the labour court can only come to one conclusion on whether BFS, in legal terms, can be considered "Foreign".

[chec tunset]

CK my reference to seniority number was 'tongue in cheek'. The way I see what was going on was that everybody was backing themselves into their own corner and that can't be good. I do admit that I am a little surprised that the management didn't see a lot of this coming ages ago. Anyway I hope it gets sorted for everybody's sake in a sensible manner and without industrial action.
wrt the classification of BFS as a foreign base, I'm afraid that I agree that there can only be one answer to this..it is (at least for now anyway). BFS based crews will be subject to UK employment laws and taxation. You will notice on other threads the 'fun' Easyjet is having with this in Europe. It would be daft for EI or the Unions to see it any other way as irrespective of what they think, the HMRC and UK Govt will treat it as their jurisdiction. This will also encompass 'Fair Employment' legislation (something which has been commented on earlier) which may make the whole transfer poilcy between bases pretty cloudy and is possibly why the management has said 'no transfers'.
This has nothing to do with anybody's right to be Irish or British and is should not be cofused in this way.
Another interesting offshoot of this would be IALPA's jurisdiction. I'm pretty sure BALPA would have to be involved as they are a recognised UK Trade Union. Perhaps they will arrange some bilateral agreement.

[CaptKremin]

Up the workers!

[FO JimmieJames]

Both sides should learn to love your neibour and you love yourself. The fault/disfunction and solution can ony be found if both parties subdue their ego's and look at the clear core of the problem. The really is no problem - it is only man made and temporary - like anything man makes.

[potkettleblack]

That almost brought a tear to my eye it was so eloquently put.

Unfortunately I can't reconcile how a drop in pay and conditions and a lack of promotion prospects could be akin to an "ego" issue.

[snipes]

I wonder how much "love" and "respect" there is in a euro?
50 repsects in a love, and 20 Loves to the euro perhaps?
Will my bank manager take "love" instead of hard cash for my mortgage? Perhaps I should try?

[Falling_Penguin]

Jimmy, the sauce hours are usually best kept to 9pm +

:}

FP

[CaptKremin]

Comment moved.

[Falling_Penguin]

Isn't LHC a shared account between MOL and one/+ of his senior pilot(s)?

Anyway...:/

How about the progress of discussions raging within AL about the relationship between BFS crews and DUB? Any news there?

FP

[OneWorld22]

Entering a critical stage now...Seems like the airline will not budge from it's plans to hire the Belfast crews.

Aer Lingus pilot talks will be tough
Wednesday, 5 September 2007 07:16

Aer Lingus could face a renewed threat of industrial action if crunch talks later today between the management and pilots' representatives break down.

Last week the Labour Relations Commission proposed that high-level delegations from management and unions should meet face-to-face to try to iron out their differences.

But sources suggest that at this morning's encounter, Aer Lingus will indicate that it must proceed as soon as possible with its recruiting of 100 staff for the new base in Belfast despite the pilots' objections.
Advertisement

Two weeks ago Aer Lingus pilots called off a threatened strike over the airline's plans to recruit staff at the new Belfast base on lower terms and conditions.

Aer Lingus says it has had 1,100 applications for the 100 Belfast jobs and needs to start active recruitment to have those staff in place when the new base starts operating on December 10. The airline is to publish the controversial terms and conditions for the Belfast staff on its website at lunchtime.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

While your petty squabble continues, as riveting as watching paint dry, the real story develops apace. Looks like its time for gloves off (http://www.ryanair.com/site/news/releases/2007/images/correspondence.pdf) in Dublin.

Should be fun to watch.

How sad, though, to think that IALPA is going to be instrumental in Aer Lingus ending up here. (http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html)

[australiancalou]

That means 1100 girls and guys applied without knowing the conditions.:ugh:
All my support to the old Aerlingus's chaps.:ok:
This bunch of desesperados or workingfornothing pilots erzats start pissing me of.:mad:
They started by paying for their type rating then working for nothing to build hours and afterwards accepting poor conditions to jump on the lefthand seat.
This will be my advice to senior managers: Watch your six, these guys will soon propose their services to get your position...
Ban on all over the World for them is the only and ultimate solution.
No fight, no glory!
An old fashion Captain

[CaptKremin]

Seems like the airline will not budge from it's plans to hire the Belfast crews.
This poster is having trouble understanding the issues obviously.
Hiring Belfast crews is not the issue - their CONTRACT is the issue.

The poster (a non-pilot, on a pilots website!) denounced IALPA for threatening a strike before talking. Even though IALPA asked for talks and were refused by ALT!

Now the two sides are talking (the union backed down and allowed recruitment to continue during talks) and the chances are high the talks will fail because - more than likely - ALT will not compromise.

So, having backed down from a strike, compromised on talks arrangements, negotiated for 2 weeks - what will the posters reaction be when the pilots are forced to take industrial action again?
I guess he'll revert to type and blame the IALPA guys!

Talking is good, but sometimes its just a waste of effort, and a strategy for delaying the inevitable.

LHC is bawling for some attention.
Bugger off Leo.
Ever been banned?

[OneWorld22]

That's not the issue Kremin, the airline's position was they did not have to talk prior to opening a new base outside the country and you damn well know it.

So now the talks are going on. If they airline goes ahead with hiring the crews on their terms according to local conditions, where does that leave everybody? After all the airline will have "talked" by then to the union.

Or does "talk" in pilot union speak mean the airline has to follow what the workers are telling them to do?! You forget who is running the airline here Kremin, it ain't you guys and the airline is under no obligation to follow diktats from a group of workers as to how the airline should operate.

I'll continue to post here as a retired pilot Kremin and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it and I know how that is just driving you mad.

But this is the real word Kremin, you seem to despise anyone who holds an alternative viewpoint to yours and seek to degrade them and throw hissy fits demanding they be banned!

You should be busy setting up this rivetting sounding pilots only forum I would have thought by now??

[CaptKremin]

The above poster seems to forget that an airline needs pilots.
Without pilots to fly the aircraft, there is no airline, nothing to 'Manage'. End of story.

The pilots in an airline - just like all employees - have a legal and moral right to withdraw their labour when pushed to the limits by contract breaches.

This non-airline pilot poster thinks 'talks' mean a negotiated surrender by pilots. Patently he misunderstands the strength of conviction, and strength of purpose of the IALPA pilots.

The poster patently lacks the backbone necessary for survival in the modern airline industry, so its just as well he's out of it. Lucky man.

[papa2andcharlie]

That's not the issue Kremin, the airline's position was they did not have to talk prior to opening a new base outside the country and you damn well know it.


That's not the issue OneWorld22. Aer Lingus management were side stepping OUR COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS when they wanted to implement a Belfast base using DEC's and the likes, agreements they voluntarily signed up to, and promised would be kept pre-IPO - and YOU damn well know it.

We have no problems living in the real world. We also would have no problems with Belfast AT ALL, if our contracts/agreements were honoured like they should be.

[OneWorld22]

No papa2andcharlie, those agreements were for bases in the Republic of Ireland.

Belfast was never mentioned in prior discussions you had with AL management.

Kremin, you obviously don't fully realise the implications of militant behaviour like this, you could be threatening the very survival of the airline itself if prolonged action were taken over a simple issue of T's and C's for a base outside this jurisdiction. There are other groups who also have a stakeholding in AL, it's not just the pilots. Have you consulted with the other groups? All your other co-workers in AL to see how they feel about this? You're threatening their livliehoods as well you know...

But keep with the jibes, it's water off a ducks back.

[CaptKremin]

papa2andcharlie, don't waste your time discussing Contractual obligations with that poster. He has already informed us on this very thread that he considers it acceptable to break Contractual obligations, thus inferring that he 'accepts' lying, and condones intentional breaches of faith.

He is clearly a dishonest individual without a shred of honour or self-respect. A self professed lover of lies, and a Troll of the lowest order.

Now he claims he is intimately familiar with the minutiae of Aer Lingus' SCOPE agreement!
Plainly, he is lying yet again, because plainly he is ignorant of the facts and utterly wrong. Yet he continues to spoof, spin, and lie.
How sick is that? Is the man delusional?

In any case, it wouldn't matrer to him what the SCOPE agreement said, as we can read in his own words below:

Also, OW22, you are ignoring the central issue here: that management are unilaterally breaking the agreements they freely entered into. Do you find this acceptable?


Why, Yes I do.

[OneWorld22]

Kepp it coming Kremin. You're getting more hysterical by the minute.

I stated the above in the context that agreements do get broken and have done with the Labour Courts approval in certain situations. It's a fact of life.

And here you are still dodging the wider picture. Have you considered the implications of potential action on the other workers of Aer Lingus? Have you looked at the wider picture? A man who you detest is banging on the door of Aer Lingus. Your company already had to pay a fortune defending itself against his hostile attack and now you want to dictate that the airline cannot in fact open a new base and hire new pilots based on terms and conditons applicable to the local market, something any company should be able to do.

You've already shown you have a causal disregard for your customers Kremin, the people who ultimately keep your airline in business. Do you disregard the other workers so casually as well? Is this just about you? Do you not look at anybody else?

[papa2andcharlie]

Your arrogance is astounding.

Seeing as it is obvious you have no idea what is provided for in our Job/Work Security agreement, (freely negotiated and signed up to by the company) nor our Seniority agreement (likewise) - statements like

" No papa2andcharlie, those agreements were for bases in the Republic of Ireland."

are farcical.

In fact, the sole purpose of your comments on this thread is now plain for all to see. You are a Troll who will argue for the sake of it, not for the valuable contribution it can provide.

There's no point in trying to explain ourselves any more to people who are doing the online equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears. You are refusing to listen or understand, instead repeating the rhetoric of "doesn't apply outside Ireland". Too bad, if you actually took some time to look into the full issue, (rather than banging the keyboard with your forehead every 5 mins), you may understand what this is all about.

"Belfast = Uk = Not Ireland = Nothing you can do about it" is far to simplistic for someone allegedly retired from this industry. It may make good reading in the Indo for the unwashed masses - but the reality is far from this stance.

I'm glad I'll never have the pleasure of your company in my flightdeck. I'd be afraid to turn my back.


* Edited to say that this was written before the last 2 posts, so may seem like I was repeating Capt Kremin, I'm not as fast a typer as you two are. :)

[papa2andcharlie]

Do you not look at anybody else?


Do you think the Management were looking at anyone else when decided to award large share bonuses if they cut the T&C from workers?

Cant have it both ways OneWorld. If you claim Management can steam roll over agreements because it suits them at that time, then what's good for the goose...

[OneWorld22]

How is it arrogance??

Lets look at the facts here.

Are your T's and C's under threat here in the ROI? NO

Is management asking you to take a pay cut? NO

Is management trying to alter your work practices? NO

The are simply trying to set up a base in another jurisdiction and hire crews under local conditions.

Yet in spite of all this, you are willing to ground your airline. The lost revenue, the screwing your customers, many of whom may never return and not just out of anger but because they will be unsure about using AL again if this action continues and also the potential damage this could do to your fellow workers.

I am painting the other side of the picture. And yet somehow this constitutes "trolling"!


(*internet chatroom rule No. 156. When someone disagrees with your viewpoint, accuse them of trolling)



It beggars belief.

[papa2andcharlie]

Your head must be spinning from repeating yourself all day. What's even funnier is that you're not getting the right parts.

So to help you for the very last time, I'm going to put this into a small list.

1) The Job and Work security agreement does not apply to ROI pilots.
2) The Seniority Agreement does not apply to ROI pilots.

3) The Job and Work security agreement applies to an Aer Lingus pilot.
4) The Seniority Agreement applies to an Aer Lingus pilot.

5) A Belfast/Warsaw/Birmingham Aer Lingus pilot is just that. An Aer Lingus Pilot.

6) These agreements apply because they are between the company and its Pilots. Not between ROI pilots and the company. (If you had these docs you would have seen this).

7) Management have decided that it doesn't suit this time to follow these agreements, so are trying to get around them.
8) We will do what we have to, to prevent this.


Point 8 seems to be your problem. Apparently we should just sit back, shrug the shoulders and say "tis was grand in the old days.....such is life".

To be frank - I really DON'T care what you, a retired pilot thinks about all of this, your concern or lack of it, won't directly effect me.

However I do like to ensure that the drivel on here spouted by people without the correct info, is shown to be what it is....just drivel.

Enjoy your merry go round. It looks like your the only one on it.

[CaptKremin]

Well said P2C.

[CarbHeatIn]

If this thing gets in what's to stop the rostering of BFS crews on W patterns BFS-LHR-DUB-LHR-BFS? Or the reserving of all the LHR/ORK night stops for BFS based crews? Then over time maybe move one of the 330s to BFS?

[OneWorld22]

And still the questions go unanswered! The other Aer Lingus workers, the customers etc etc all discarded...

1) The Job and Work security agreement does not apply to ROI pilots


It DOES apply to ROI pilots because AL only had ROI bases when you negotiated. You can't turn around when the airline opens up a base in another country and somehow claim that ROI agreements negotiated by ROI unions have validity in other countries! SIPTU/IMPACT/MANDATE etc etc have no authority in other countries. Pretending that somehow they do, doesn't make it so.

6) These agreements apply because they are between the company and its Pilots. Not between ROI pilots and the company. (If you had these docs you would have seen this).

Wrong again. Prior to Belfast you only had ROI pilots. Surely common sense dictates that the opening of a new base starts the whole thing off again.

5) A Belfast/Warsaw/Birmingham Aer Lingus pilot is just that. An Aer Lingus Pilot.

What kind of statement is that?? You telling me that Microsoft workers earn the same wage and earn the same conditions in Redmond as they do in other countries?!

Sorry lads, you're actually the only ones on this particular merry go round. In the court of public opinion, nobody is with you on this. And if this is really all you got, then you really are in trouble.

You don't care what I and other shareholders think, so why should we all care what you think? You want to bring this airline down, go right ahead.

[CaptKremin]

Does anyone know at exactly what age senility sets in?
Are retired pilots more prone to it?

P2C, will you please clarify things for the aged Troll above? I refuse to communicate with it myself.

It appears to have trouble with english. In truth I think you need to be more explicit when wording things for it. You can try explaining that the agreement applies to ALL Aer Lingus pilots, wherever they live or work. Is that clear enough do you think? Will it get it?
Who knows?

The guys who designed the agreement were (thank Christ) a tad smarter and more foresighted than the has-been above. They framed it so well that Mannion and his cohorts have no way round it - so they've chosen to just drive through it. Bad move.

You can tell Mr.Alzheimers that an airline run on those grounds isn't worth having. There are plenty of pilot jobs like that out there already if you want 'em, and besides, people will still need to fly in and out of Ireland next week.
Its Mannions head thats on the chopping block, not yours.

[suasdaguna]

IMO one world is an AL HOB plant paid to keep spewing out the same mantra.....not for a minute do i believe s/he is a retired pilot.....

[the grim repa]

ow22 - aer lingus pilots are not alone.we at ryanair support their stance fully,because we can see that management wants to drag them down into the the same type of cesspool that exists at fr.we can also see that any reduction in terms and conditions in one company has a detrimental knock on effect in other companies.that is one of the reasons why mol wants aer lingus out of the way so he can further drive down crew costs.it is clear that mol's meddling is ultimately for his and no others gain.for all pilots who think they are untouchable and reducing terms and conditions are market driven,you will one day have your eyes opened for you,what will you see.think about it!

[Le Rocket]

OW22

easyJet pilots fly on one AOC and all operate G registered aircraft. Up until very recently, thay all signed the same contract, regardless of base or the local economy. So yes, a pilot in Glasgow got the same pay as a pilot in Gatwick, or paris, or Berlin etc. They all worked for one company under one contract. They all get the same holidays, bonus and days off. Nobody is treated any different, be it in the UK or mainland europe, regardless of the local economy.
Recently, easyJet went to madrid and yes, the spanish government said they wanted their cut of taxes and social security. easyJet produced a contract and BALPA, yes BALPA told all new joiners and current employees not to go near madrid or sign anything as it had not been union approved. Aghast...I hear you exclaim! A British union, negotiate on behalf of a spanish base, for spanish local terms and conditions..how dare they! well they did. As a result, there is a british pilot union negotiated contract, given to spain based pilots. This contract is fair and transparent, and in fact has a slighty higher basic salary when GB£ converted.
The reason BALPA negotiated, is because eayJet is on a British AOC and is UK based. It is recognised as the appropriate union and selected by easyJet management. These are all facts. That is why IALPA is, and will continue to be the Aerlingus pilots union, for all Aerlingus pilots, be it in paris, berlin, london or dare I say it Belfast.

[Bad Robot]

Le Rocket,

You took the words right out of my mouth.
Nail well and truly hit on the head though! :ok:

BR.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

What an unpleasant fellow you are, CaptKremin. Have you not discovered in your many, many years as a superior airline pilot, in between all those prostate massages from the unions sustaining your delusion, that you can get your point across without resorting to insult and buffoonery? If I didn’t know better, your personality as revealed here would lead one to believe you might be an Australian. Is that right, CaptKremin?

As the flying world now knows following the union driven fiasco of 1989 that resulted in all those bitter and twisted, southseas whining nincompoops being scattered to the four winds, Australians in general and pilots in particular, are famous for covering the distance from reasonable to reactionary radical at light speed. You make my point perfectly, for which thanks. OneWord22 makes reasonable arguments to my mind, which you meet with insult and derision. It was ever thus.

You just don’t seem to quite grasp the fact that because Aer Lingus is no longer free to suckle endlessly at the teat of the Irish State, it needs to pursue commercial success in order to survive. As shocking and unpalatable as this fundamental truth may be to an incorrigible union diehard such as yourself, there’s no escaping it. Aer Lingus is sitting on a gold mine, but poor Dermot’s efforts to run the company properly are being thwarted on several fronts.

First of all, short haul is haemorrhaging cash. Long Haul makes lots of lovely money. Lets pause there for a moment for that to sink in, shall we? Short bad, Long good. As much as this wisdom applies equally to the unfortunate, plastic numbskull that leads your turgid, moribund organisation IALPA, its basic maths I wish to celebrate with you now.

Aer Lingus has certainly made great strides in attracting customers by lowering its fares in a forlorn attempt at becoming a sort of lime-green version of Ryanair. Great stuff, so far. This demonstrates the other fundamental truth that seems to have escaped you; the CUSTOMER (remember them?) determines success or failure.

The only problem with this plan, though, is that you can’t compete with a monstrously successful airline like Ryanair by simply lowering fares when your cost base is high. You can compete on fares, but not on cost. This, my dear, has only one outcome in the long view, and I’m afraid it’s not a happy one.

Secondly, Dermot has to somehow massage all those bearded troglodytes of SIPTU into realising that their cash cow needs to transform itself into a racehorse, and in double quick time whilst fending off perfectly reasonable requests from its largest shareholder, or to put it another way, from Ryanair, the organisation who OWNS 30 percent of you. Add to this the interference, visible and not, of a bruised and politically wary Taoiseach, and poor Dermot is reaching for the extra strength aspirin…again.

Fundamentals of economics notwithstanding, the really tragic thing to watch from the safety of distance, is the sheer, unbridled stupidity and self-serving hubris with which you continue to pursue the downfall of your airline by means of suicide by union. The BFS base is a reasonable idea. You have nothing, absolutely nothing to say about it by way of complaint. Your fur-lined bubble is maintained status quo anti whilst your airline struggles to survive in a brutal, unforgiving market against highly able competitors who know what they’re doing.

When Aer Lingus fails, CaptKremin, thanks to you and those like you, and it certainly will unless IMPACT are dragged into the 21st century very quickly, you will surely not be surprised to find familiar faces wandering through all the green rubble as Openskies commences in March of next year.

[CaptKremin]

What a lengthy turd that was!
The splashback must've been of tsunami proportions when it snapped off.

Who's interested in this verbal excretia? The bowel movement of a rubber faced fart in the wind.
Not I.

This is a 'Professional Pilots' website (yes really! See, it says it in the title).

You are neither.

Take yourself off.

[CaptKremin]

And a little willy dribble to finish off.

Pass the bog roll.

[semp66]

Dear Kapt Kremin, the fact that Lingus may not linger much longer seems not to bother you one wee bit. The Camel feller is offering sage advise, people are watching! You are being childish in your replies to him, people are watching.

[OneWorld22]

Kremin et al, best of luck in a years time when you'll be going through the screening for Kingfisher or Air Deccan etc. You can sit in the crew hotel in Mumbai or Bangalore and reminisce about the good ol days when Aer Lingus was still flying....

The airline is under threat and all you can do is put the blinkers on and worry about your own little corner. Again, no word for the customers, your co-workers etc etc I was talking to one of these co-workers at DUB last night and they are very perturbed and in a word seething with the behaviour of the pilot body in all this.

Just watch out for those Indians, you think Big Bad Dermo is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet baby!!

[CaptKremin]

Acha.








......

[The Boy Wonder]

Forgive me if it's already been made clear - is the recruitment ban still in place? What hope for those who've honoured it? What for those who didn't?

Also, regarding BALPA and easyJet, there are some who think the company have suckered the pilots while BALPA has effectively stood by.

[CaptKremin]

you obviously don't fully realise the implications of militant behaviour like this, you could be threatening the very survival of the airline itself if prolonged action were taken over a simple issue of T's and C's for a base outside this jurisdiction. There are other groups who also have a stakeholding in AL, it's not just the pilots. Have you consulted with the other groups? All your other co-workers in AL to see how they feel about this? You're threatening their livliehoods as well you know...


When he wrote that post, OW22 claimed the ALT pilots were at odds with the rest of the staff, and his buddies in other areas were disgusted with the pilots (or some such tripe).

Today Mr.Mannion has declared war on ALL the staff in Aer Lingus.
He asserts that some of OW22's friends - the 'other staff' - are skiveing off the job, working less than the full shift, claiming overtime they didn't work, and making up to 110K per year while doing it.

Is that not a case of sheer hypocrisy on behalf of OW22's buddy (Mr.Disgusted) then? That while he's been sniping at the pilots, he's swinging the lead in his back office?

Maybe Mr'Disgusted should've gotten his own house in order before opining on the pilots?

Anyhow, reality bites, and Mr.Disgusted - like all the other ALT workers - is now getting a big chunk ripped out of his own ass by Mannion.

Hate to say it, but - TOLD YA SO!

War is imminent. See you on the Roundabout Mr.Disgusted!

[heidelberg]

As a retired Pilot I see EI management taking on the unions who have led the EI staff up a cul de sac.
I think it's time for all EI staff to consider the future no matter how you might personally feel towards Mannion and Co.
I remember the time when it took 3 people to change a bulb in the flight deck - one the technician with the philips screwdriver, one electrician who changed the bulb(s) and one from the stores who carried the bulb! Crazy but true.
Times have moved on from this scenario of a bygone era but more cost cutting has to be done to ensure the future viability of EI in what is a cut throat business.
Please everyone, consider carefully what you propose doing and its possible consequences.
Regardless what happens the Union officials will continue to have their reasonably well paid jobs while EI staff are either on strike, or worse, might become 'former' staff of a now defunct airline!

[CaptKremin]

I totally agree with you.
There are too many hangers on in the back offices. Too many baggage handlers earning 6 figure salaries. Too many Managers who have built their petty departments into enormous white elephants by adding extra ass lickers and pencil pushers at every opportunity. Too many 9-5'ers in a round-the-clock airline. Too much waste on useless crap, like Staff Development centres (mainly serving the 9-5 ers). Too much inefficiency from useless fools who can't even order up a ground power unit, or meet an incoming aircraft on time. Too many subsidised staff canteens for the 9-5'ers to slack off in. Too many lunch breaks. Too many tea breaks. Too many Fag breaks. Too many knock-offs at 4PM on a Friday. Too many subsidised staff parties. Too much heirarchy. Too little accountability. Too many bloody "Grades". Its like the bloody Civil Service. Oh, and don't forget the 'Incentive Plans' for management - up to 187% in bonuses on a 1Million euro salary for Mannion (he calls it a Pay Freeze). Rather TOO MUCH I feel, and a bad example to others as regards cost savings and salary cutbacks.

But the cockpits have 2 pilots - not 6.
And the pilots do their job efficiently - or you'd be reading about the dead bodies.

I hope IALPA stand back now, and let OW22's buddies, Mr.Disgusted and his overpaid underworked cohorts do the jumping-up-and-down on Mannions head.

And I hope OW22's pal Mr.Disgusted (et al) thinks of the poor passengers while doing so. I'm sure OW22 will remind him of his responsibilities.

[Headinclouds]

Nice Post Heidelburg...........agree totally........

[papa2andcharlie]

There are too many hangers on in the back offices. Too many baggage handlers earning 6 figure salaries. Too many Managers who have built their petty departments into enormous white elephants by adding extra ass lickers and pencil pushers at every opportunity. Too many 9-5'ers in a round-the-clock airline. Too much waste on useless crap, like Staff Development centres (mainly serving the 9-5 ers). Too much inefficiency from useless fools who can't even order up a ground power unit, or meet an incoming aircraft on time. Too many subsidised staff canteens for the 9-5'ers to slack off in. Too many lunch breaks. Too many tea breaks. Too many Fag breaks. Too many knock-offs at 4PM on a Friday. Too many subsidised staff parties. Too much heirarchy. Too little accountability


Oh my GOD! You DO work here in Aer Lingus!!

There's your cost savings in one paragraph. I'm glad someone else sees this waste for what it really is. Well Done Cpt Kremin.

[OneWorld22]

This is excellent!

I am very impressed with Mr. Mannion.

He is taking on the unions in order to make the airline a profitable one. I had my doubts about him originally, but he's showing he has a backbone.

Well done Dermot, keep it up!!

[ceasaragustus]

one world you are a gypo

[CaptKremin]

Ask him about his mate - Mr.Disgusted StaffMember.
Go on, ask him!
Still feeling aloof and well insulated?

Dermo's on a suicide mission now. Must've finally realised he can't shaft the Paddies as easy as he shafted the little brown fella's in Emirates.

Innit embarrassing when the CEO reeks of desperation?

All or nothin' then Dermo.
We'll see you out the door with a swift kick up the arse.

[fingal flyer]

As a non AL member of IALPA who nearly got buggered on the way to the sim because of the threatened strike and other reasons I don't have a lot of faith in the union in Ireland(cant find anyboby else in the country interested in flight crew).But I will say to any AL pilot don't cave in,it happens all to often in our profession nowadays because pilots don't have what you have.Use it but don't abuse it for the well being of all involved.

[OneWorld22]

the little brown fella's in Emirates


Good god!! :p:p "Little brown fella's"???? :eek:


No I'm on your side now Kremin, these unionised workers need a good seeing to. Time the old remnants of "Burke's Mafia" were swept away from the airport once and for all to allow the airlines operate on a level playing field.

Time to take SIPTU down. :mad:

[CaptKremin]

No I'm on your side now Kremin

Yeah? Well I won't be turning my back on ya.


these unionised workers need a good seeing to.
Yeah, the SIPTU lot do anyhow. Shower of wasters. Like your buddy Mr.Disgusted. How is he anyhow? I'm waiting to hear from you! Is he going to strike to regain his frozen pay increase? Or is he just going to be a good boy and do what management demand?
Or maybe he is Management!?
Funny, you didn't mention that before when you were relaying his dissatisfaction with the bolshy pilots! That would make quite a difference to his opinions, wouldn't it?

Come on OW22, we're waiting anxiously to hear your dispatches from the frontline. :D

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban1255l.jpg