ASL NZ Poor Standard of testing officer?

[Big Kahuna]

I am referring to the northern area testing officer, who is making quite a name for himself.

Has anyone else experienced problems with this person?

Where ASL finds them I am not quite sure! Perhaps CTC was glad to see him go. Smarten up your ideas DW.

[XRNZAF]

I'm curious. What exactly is poor about the standard of this particular testing officer in your opinion? Does he not know his stuff? Does he not fail enough people? Does he fail too many people?

[kiwiblue]

yeah, like XRNZAF, I'd be keen to hear more detail. In my dealings with ASL their testing officers have been of a consistently high standard -Graeme Leach and Pete Dixon spring to mind straight away. Have flown with both and found them thorough and thoroughly professional.

Many years ago when CAA had their own testing officers, the one in WN had a pretty poor rep -failed guys on their 1st flight-test just 'on principle' it seemed, but I certainly have never heard of anything like that since.

[sexy time]

Yes I too have heard some disturbing feedback about the aforementioned testing officer.

Aparrently he failed his C Cat flight test some three times......and upon failing a recent candidate was kind enough to inform the hapless soul he indeed had the power to remove his current qualification........sounds like a little man enjoying (abusing)the authority bestowed him.

It is a pity as the ASL assessors in the past were guys with "industry experience" who applied their judgement consistently!

[TZZ]

i think p.dixon and g leach are fair with how you fly and reach the standards, the only reason i think Nz has is less flight examiners, the only reason i think students fail is because they are not 100 percent ready or their instructor didnt train them well.

[Got the horn]

I've heard disturbing things about this testing officer too. I'm hoping not to get him for my next flight test. I think the industry is on to him though.

[solowflyer]

I have flowen a number of times with DW as cfi and have experienced his wrath first hand. Although it was a bit off putting to be told bluntly that I had failed a checkflight and need to get my S#$t togeather:ouch: you just have to get over it take it on the chin and make sure you get it right next time.

He expects the candidate to know his stuff and to be prepaird, after all they are about to be certified as a professional pilot. Would you expect any examiner to pass people that have been pumped out in a sausage factory style flying school that are not up to standard just because they need to keep up with the program??

My hat goes off to DW for keeping up the standard and not bowing to commercial forces

[Cloud Cutter]

There is a difference between keeping a high standard, and creating unnecessary barriers. Some of the things I've heard indicate a rather large lack of knowledge on the part of this testing officer with respect to P of F.

I know of one particular case where I could vouch for the candidate being of a very high standard, and failing based on dissagreement with some very flawed arguments put forward by the testing officer, which were quite rightly rejected.

I don't know the guy personally, and I'm not commenting on anything other than his actions. Of course, I understand there are two sides to every story, but it's also true that where there's smoke there's fire.

[AerocatS2A]

Gee, is Pete Dixon still around? He did my CPL flight test about 13 years ago. I found him to be really good. Relaxing but thorough at the same time. He did take a lot of smoke breaks!

the one in WN had a pretty poor rep -failed guys on their 1st flight-test just 'on principle' it seemed, but I certainly have never heard of anything like that since.
Not "no-pass" Parker by any chance?

[Inverted Flat Spin]

I had this ASL testing officer for my CPL. I had no problems with him whatsoever, infact the flight itself was rather fun.

I have heard of a few people being upset with him when they failed. Some of these people have also gone on to fail with a different testing officer.
Maybe this whole issue reflects on the standard of flight training, or some people could just be attempting to pass a flight test there not quite ready for.

[solowflyer]

Flat spin is on the money. Once you get to know DW he is a real pleasure to fly with espcially if you get to talk about fishing:} and is from my own experience will give credit if credit is due just dont expect a walk in the park and if you meet the standard you will pass if not you wont.

[kiwi_hockey_guy]

Stolen from another thread, but about the same Testing officer

haha that CTC guy that went to ASL - he managed to make friends by telling a candidate on a B cat flight test - that you maintain height in a max rate turn by pulling back. Um hello? arn't we already at max CL anyway?!!!
You maintain height in a max rate by varying aob.
It was argued until the candidate was blue in the face, and he failed.

I also hear, he is a little unsure on IFR stuff also....

[Luke SkyToddler]

Is this the bloke that replaced P C-S? Or am I way behind the times. Surely he can't be even more eccentric than him??!! What a weirdo that guy was.

[Centaurus]

A few years ago a DCA Examiner of Airman in Perth WA with a doubtful reputation was scheduled to conduct a PPL flight test. The pilot did his pre-flight checks and started the engine. The Examiner then failed him immediately for not turning on the anti-collision light before engine start. This drill was not required in prop aircraft - only jet aircraft, but the Examiner didn't care. Both pilots climbed down from the aircraft and the pilot calmly walked over to the Examiner and decked him with a clean punch to the jaw.
Now that's what I call justice...

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"Many years ago when CAA had their own testing officers, the one in WN had a pretty poor rep -failed guys on their 1st flight-test just 'on principle' it seemed, but I certainly have never heard of anything like that since"

That would almost certainly be one HB. People used to wear teeshirts to aeroclub rallies that read "I've been failed by H..... B......".

However, I doubt that HB ever "failed" anyone who did not themselves fail to demonstrate the required standard, and I know of many who passed first up with him.

As with all ATOs - demonstrate what is on the flight test form to the required standard and you will pass!

(We won't dwell on IR renewals where they keep failing navaids, instruments and engines until you screw something up!)

HB's main "fault" was that he did nothing to put you at ease.

I did my C-Cat Instructor's Rating test with HB. We started at 09:00 with briefings, then a flight test took us through to a late lunch. We finished off with a couple of hours questions on Principles of Flight.

At about 16:45 HB announced "That was successful", did the paperwork and flew off back to Wellington.

I also did my first renewal with HB. Trust me - that guy never asked you to do anything he couldn't do himself, perfectly!

At the time (early 80's) there was well known case of a young CPL candidate who failed their flight test multiple times with HB. Story goes he was of the opinion that they should never hold a CPL because their decision making was flawed. Said candidate went to another part of NZ and passed a CPL test with a different Testing Officer.

Before the ink was dry on the new CPL's licence they, and a plane load of pax were lost in a "VFR flight into IMC" weather related accident.

Dr :cool:

[Got the horn]

Well, they've taken my money, will be interesting to see who ends up doing my flight test......wish I was still in the South Island! Prior Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance!

[prospector]

Personally, I would have thought that when people are making critical statements about a persons professional standards, and these statements are only opinions formed from whatever background or event, and that person is easily identifiable, and comments being made from behind a nom de plume, then that should be when moderators step in.

[6080ft]

alot of the opinions formed are from actual events, and I guess these opinions grow stronger when one hears of others who have had such experiences too!
eg my post in another thread, which someone quoted above, about the technique for doing a max rate turn, where clearly the examiner had it wrong. No one can argue otherwise in that case!

[tail wheel]

prospector. I am satisfied that - at this stage at least -all posts in this thread comply with PPRuNe rules.

"..making critical statements about a persons professional standards."

Critical - yes. But the posts are balanced and not defamatory or libelous.

Fine line: Yes. Subjective: Yes.

Tail Wheel

[scroogee]

solowflyer: in regard to the first part of your answer "Once you get to know DW he is a real pleasure to fly with espcially if you get to talk about fishing...", a flight test requirement should not be "get to know your testing officer and his/her hobbies". Candidates should be assessed on their ability and proficency. Some converstion to establish rapport or back ground is acceptable- particularly for instructor ratings i.e. finding out what the student knows or thinks etc.

[Top of Descent]

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb123/tonyzimex/CFM56-3.jpg


Now let's see.........

The boy's are not happy that they are failing.

Having completed tests with EA , RDeM , HB , yes I had the tee shirt........."I failed with Harold" on the front and on the back it said "TWICE" ! PCS , and PD (top bloke) I feel in a position to comment on DW.

As I know the particular chap and having discussed many topics ranging from current IFR procedures and everything concerning Pof F (first 9 chapters of Kermode) and know that he's the business.

Now see the engine at the top........weeeell..... if you feel like that's your hand on the thrust levers you have to 'deliver' to be in seat 0B. To be of a professional standard you will have to get used to being scrutinized and checked at each level.........get used to it because that is the nature of this 'beast' called Aviation.

You may call DW a tool.

But always remember that a bad workman blames his tools.

The ball is in your court, 7Ps will see you right

Prior Planning Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance

Take the challenge troops and look forward to seeing you in 0B.


Cheers

[123567]

i will not comment on the ethics or standards of any testing officer - but would like to put this out in the open...

The testing officers are now being paid a commission [a substiantial amount] per flight test. This includes resits.

To me this could create a serious conflict of interest. good on ya ASL.:ok:

[diseasel]

The trick with DW on IFR is to get the student knowing more than he seems to... I'm sure he is a good enough pilot in his own right and don't doubt his skills, and outside flying he's not a bad bloke... but let's face it he seems a little out of his depth in some aspects of issuing licences and ratings. A bit of time in SEIFR General Aviation should see him right!


And on the pay note, only some of the testing officers (such as WB) are on a 'by the test' pay scheme. DW will be on a salary.

That said, ASL still get paid by the test... and by the RESIT. I wonder what the failure quota really is. Perhaps I should stop before I get :mad:

[Top of Descent]

Simple.......

Don't plan on a resit to top up the ASL coffers

7P's

[Cypher]

I think Top of Descent is quite correct..
once you move into heavier aircraft, your career goes on the line every 6 months, get used to being tested... The big advantage though is that you are tested against a specific ops manual and procedure. Most things are black and white as set by the ops manual and S.O.Ps..
I too have flown with several of the intials named in this thread, not HB, but G.L, P.C.S, 'No-Pass Parker' and D.W.
Each examiner will always have a 'area of speciality' that they focus on. It will be an area in which they consider lacking or maybe not covered that well in the field of candidates that they have tested in the past.
They hammer this subject on many flight tests. D.W from memory likes to test low flying, P.C.S was reknowned for his knowledge of all things Kemode..
G.L well, I can't remember what it was but he is a great guy to fly with.
Scroogee is quite right... a flight test requirement is not to know about the examiner's hobbies etc..but do you just do the bare requirement and hope to get by? Its not a requirement to know Qantas' complete history when you go for a interview, but you'll look like a complete tool when you front up to the interview without even a basic understand of the company you want a job with. A little knowledge and forewarning doesn't go astray... how many people remember being told about P.C.S and sailing or his time in P.N.G.
It's more of a way to being able to relate to the examiner and put yourself at ease rather than trying to brown-nose your way to a pass....
If you've failed a flight test, a clear indication of where you failed should be given. It is up to you to fix any deficiencies in that area, as well as maybe covering other areas which you may feel need work. Use your flight instructor.
Flight examiners have a habit of finding a weakness, then exploiting it to the N-degree....

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

G the H

Lots of good advice in here. IMHO you should forget the reputation of the Testing Officer and just go fly the aeroplane.

There are others in here who can tell stories of check rides and command upgrade checks with those of variable ability and attitude (Now didn't I put that nicely). You can't escape them in the aviation business - you just have to deal with them.

Dr :cool:

[prospector]

tail wheel,
Fair enough, but presumably some one who is carrying out flight tests for the issue or renewal of licences or ratings has had to jump through quite a few hoops on the way. What I am a little disturbed about is what are the qualifications and experience levels of the persons that he has apparently upset. If we are informed as to the flight test or renewal that was being performed at the time that this manifestation of lack of skills by the testing officer were displayed then perhaps the statements would be more credible. Was it an initial issue CPL, initial issue IF rating, initial issue SPIFR rating, or was it a renewal after many years in the system.

Just as a reference, my first IF check was with Harry Bielby, SPIFR check was with Reg Shand, and CPL flight test was with Clarry Berryman. T

There has been a lot water under the bridge since those days, and many checkrides with many a peccadillo to overcome since then.

[solowflyer]

Yes I agree scrooge that a flight examiner is there to do his job and not socialise with.

DW was my CFI when I was doing my CPL training, the fishing thing was a joke within the ranks of students where i was doing my training. Not trying to endorse brown nosing was just trying to keep things a little light hearted.

Just don't like to see a bloke get slaged off by people using second hand infomation and here say.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I did my RPPL test in Oz in 1973 with an infamous DCA Examiner of Airmen, ex Lufwaffe pilot JB. He got sprung on me unexpectedly because his intended victim did not front. I turned up at the Flying School one morning to do some solo practice for my forthcoming test, to be greeted with "You can go do your test this morning with Mr B. You're ready for it anyway".

As I went to pre-flight the aeroplane my Instructor said to me, "Remember to use plenty of power to control your descent on the short field landing. Mr B likes to see plenty of power".

So off we went!

As I climbed away from my forced landing Mr B said, "Ahhh, I do not know if we are alive or dead"!

For the short-field landing I hung that little C150 on the prop from about a mile out to touch-down and pulled up just off the piano keys - Mr B went off his brain. "Who taught you to do za short-field landing like that? Ahhh, I suppose my Instructor did", I replied. "Too much power, too much power", Mr B ranted.

As we taxied in I though to myself, "You can stick your @#$%ing pilot's licence".

In the de-brief, Mr B got his second wind.

"This student cannot do za short-field landing. He uses too much power! Too much power! Before ve left he verked out that he needed za 750 ft (or something like that) for take-off and landing - not za 50 ft"!

Instructor: "Well Mr B, I may have over emphasised the use of power in the short-field landing. I'll have him sorted out for next time".

Mr B: "No, I vill give him da licence. The rest of his flying is very good - but he cannot do da short-field landing! You must go up with him straight'way and do da hour on da short-field landing - and den I vill give him da licence"!

You'd be proud of me Mr B - I can still do da short-field landings!

Dr :cool:

A mate of mine drew JB for a UPPL test. Passed first go - so I don't where the bad reputation came from!

Moral of the story - just fly the aeroplane. You might be surprised how it all works out in the end.

[Jabawocky]

but he cannot do da short-field landing!

That one at Ambo was pretty damn short in the Bonanza. I think we had to throttle up a bit to get to the other end.....uphill a bit:}

J:ok:

[sexy time]

Enough of the patronising wibble about being properly prepared for a flight test...(being suitably prepared goes without saying)...this thread came about because of the lack of consistent objectivity being shown by a testing officer...this lack of judgement arises directly from a lack of "industry experience"....come on ASL spend some of the vast revenue you gather on some quality experienced examiners.......it's been bad enough suffering your woeful exams to see the flight testing go the same way!

[6080ft]

sexy time - well said.

Perhaps with a new general manager now asl will pull thier socks up and improve a bit. the last guy had his head in the sand I feel!

[JohnnyK]

Agree with sexytime, both about patronising wibble- any more cliches for us TOD?- and ASL`s naked revenue reaping. Personally have had no beef with the testing officers but as an organisation ASL leaves plenty to be desired.

[scroogee]

After reading this I did a little more asking about- and found a couple of other interesting reports- the best suggestion I heard was that there should be a better feedback/critique process. Other flight testing organisations are required to provide a form and pre paid envelope etc (i.e. are relatively active in seeking feedback) yet ASL do not do this as far as I know.

[Got the horn]

They do, I got one in the mail with my reciept etc.

[toolowtoofast]

Good for a chuckle.....at least Mr Gill is positive :)

http://www.aviation.co.nz/Newsletters.htm

[kiwi chick]

ooooh, ooooh, oooooh!!! I can add to this on SOOOO many levels!!

I sat my CPL flight test with

Not "no-pass" Parker by any chance?

having no idea who he was... until after my flight test when the instructors poked and teased and cajoled me about it! :ok: All I can say is i am sure as **** happy i DIDN'T know his rep before we got in the plane, or it would have been all over before it began... :eek: (and for the record, he YELLED at me in the cockpit :{ )

Then, i sat my C-Cat with Graham Leach - oh my oh my, what a fantastic man! I had heard that a good pass with Mr Leach MEANS a good pass - and that if you don't cut the mustard, you don't pass. What more could a genuine pilot want in a testing officer? :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Techniques for passing a flight test with P. Diddy....

1) Stack of flying mags and FHM/Ralph type mags with hot ladies on the cover
2) Talk about how awesome DB draught is
3) General discussion of farms/farming/horses. He'll pull the photos out if you're a GC.

Sweet as you passed!!!:D

[Got the horn]

Can concur with Uncle Chop Chop. It worked a treat for my C-cat.

[diseasel]

I have been told in the last two days of another ASL favorite creeping back to the front, mainly regarding use of the GAP instructors guide. WB wanted a B cat's forced landing to be 'as the gap manual says' but in the past has accused briefings of being 'too gap manual'...

..."****, where did the goal posts go? oh they have shifted again!"...

And DW is quite bad for this also. Who here honestly agrees that during an advanced stall, that power should be increased as airspeed decreases in order to maintain the entry RPM... say 1500? Even the gap manual says it should be allowed to decrease!! I think the AFS boys have run into this more than once. Wazza must be having kittens.

[kiwiblue]

I sat my CPL flight test with

Quote:
Not "no-pass" Parker by any chance?

Ohhh girlie! You telling us porkies about how 'ol you are??? NPP was on the verge of retiring/falling off the planet when I did my CPL flight test (with GL -top bloke, as you were) in the early 80's!!! That would have made you about 12 when you did yours??? AwEsOmE!!! :ok: ROFPML

Like I said earlier, haven't heard mention of NPP for bl@@dy years... is he still going???

..."****, where did the goal posts go? oh they have shifted again!"..

Well, that hasn't changed...

[Cypher]

NPP still lurks...
Think he's a inspector with the CAA now.. mainly Pt 135 stuff...

That was in 2001 I flew with him.. and have heard mention of NPP since then too..

Is GL still active? Top bloke....

[scroogee]

It would be good for ASL to treat the GAP Instructors Manual as it should be - a suggestion guide, not the bible. For it to become the bible it needs significant industry feedback and improvement.

[kiwiblue]

NPP still lurks...
Think he's a inspector with the CAA now.. mainly Pt 135 stuff...

Gawd, he must be bl@@dy-near fossilised by now!!! KC, I humbly retracts previous :) Seems the 'ol bugger has better legs than I imagined possible!

Is GL still active? Top bloke....

Couldn't agree more. Fine bloke, thoroughly professional. Last I heard of Graeme he was doing some intl ferry work, I think for an AA based outfit. Haven't heard of him being active in ASL checking/testing for years, so not sure if he does that now or what. Pete Dixon (another top bloke) took over his Southern region quite a while ago. Is Pete still active?

[JohnnyK]

Pistol Pete failed me-deservedly- about 3 yrs ago. Tough old bastard, but fair it must be said. And does love to talk about the farm. Pointed out his land to me out Rakaia way, if memory serves me correctly, on the arc-had to lift up the hood and go "oh, I see it". Passed that one.

[6080ft]

GL is still very active with ASL - based out of nzpp i think. He regulary travels all over the north island.
great guy - very fair - did a couple of tests with him.

scroogee - good point re the gap manual! it is just a guide - pity some of the testing officers missed that point!

[kiwi chick]

You telling us porkies about how 'ol you are???

Hahaha, ROTFL!! Sat it in Sep 2004, story goes:

GL turned up to do my flight test (top guy, top guy :D) but I made the call not to go due weather. GL said (good call, but) he would be unable to resit for another six weeks... F ** K that!!! I had barely managed to contain myself waiting for the last week!

So... JP happened to be standing beside him at the desk at the time, (oh the funny coincidences that life throws at us...) commented that "oh, it's been a while since I did a CPL flight test, I could do her tomorrow?!" to which I replied

"oh, that would be FANTASTIC! You ARE a wonderful man!!"

...the rest is history..............

[kiwiblue]

PML such is life... the rest they say, is history.

And yup, you did mention something about that somewhere... :E

[BrokenConrod]

"I could do her tomorrow"

Yeah, but when did you do the flight test?

BC :8

[haughtney1]

P.C.S. was my testing officer for my CPL and IR...he was a total gent, and a little eccentric all at once.
Guys know your stuff, have the answers before the questions arrive...then say thank you, and take your freshly signed pass paper.

[kiwi chick]

Yeah, but when did you do the flight test?

:confused:

I didn't need to, obviously... :E :E :E


(Kiwiblue, whats PML? :O)

[Cypher]

Pi$$ing myself laughing.. :D

[kiwiblue]

what he said :ok:

Which should be a good start for ROFPML :}

[Borneo Wild Man]

ASL seems to have no Qaulity system,do they have a Qaulity manager,if so your comments should go to him.
Perhaps the CFIs should sit in on the debrief.Remember you are the CUSTOMER,sure the applicant must be prepared and operate to the acceptable standard(and have been graded aacceptable for testing by his/her instructor) but the testing officer should also exibit acceptable standards as well.Is there even any commonality or standard between testing Officers?
If the CFI is not satisfied,refuse to have him back.
ASL is providing a SERVICE.

Rumour has it this new guy hasn't flown further South than Nelson.His only commercial experience is instructing.
The question I put to the forum is shouldnt a Testing Officer have some real world commercial and IFR experience before he can take applicants on CPL/IFR Flt tests?

In closing ever been asked by a Testing officer'How did I do as your testing officer-any feedback for me,can I improve?'

Yeah I thought not!

BWM
:ugh:

[kiwi chick]

Bit of a drift here... but not really.

My CFI sat in on my debrief for my C-Cat, alongside my instructor.

(Im pretty sure it wasn't in the vein of "snigger... this will be a laugh..." ;)

Was good because anything that I missed (which was most of it after he said "well done" :O) were heard by two other sets of ears. I found this great in the few days afterwards when I tried to remember exactly what had been said :ok:

[XRNZAF]

It has been my experience anywhere I've been, that the CFI and instructor have been present for the testing officers debrief. In fact I would consider it strange if they weren't.

Not only is it an opportunity for the testing officer to give the CFI points where their students skills and knowledge may be lacking, but its also a chance to 'argue the point' if necessary and discuss any concerns raised.

Its called taking an interest in your students and the standard of your 'finished product'. :ok:

[Jack Sprat]

WBM - Pretty sure DW did some ATOs in Northland, so not all experience is instructing. Even if you're correct, so what? FTOs are supposed to test against the same information the CFIs have and not against their own interpretations mixed with their experience.

In addition, I know that FTOs do quite a bit of training and assessment before being let loose on candidates. My experiences with HB, PCS, GL, and NS match those of other Pruners and I am prepared to accept that DW will follow suit. As they have said, for flight tests, do your homework, keep your instructor honest by making sure he/she knows exactly what you need to demonstrate to the FTO and try to enjoy the experience.

[Cloud Cutter]

FTOs are supposed to test against the same information the CFIs have and not against their own interpretations mixed with their experience.

Couldn't have put it better myself. It's these 'interpretations' that seem to be the issue.

i.e. Max rate turns. If the nose starts to drop....... add more back pressure??? Really? But please sir, I have no more back pressure!!!

[stillalbatross]

Who was the old guy who used to do the 744 sims for the NZ ATPL for those of us dragged overseas. The guy who could never find the gear handle, is he still around..................