Comair purchase B777

[moonshine707]

I heard that Comair has purchased a B777. Can anybody confirm this?:) I'm sure it will get Vernon's attention

[Mark J B]

Not in this lifetime much is the pity!:{

[ZSSAK]

Reminds me very much of a rumour I heard about this time last year that Kulula were "leasing" a BA 777 for use on the Gatwick run in competition to Vernons boys,might it just be a similar spin?Highly doubt its true though...... :confused::confused:

[Mark J B]

Mmmm isn't it salary negotiation time again? Well at least they have progressed from a 767 to a 777 as the proverbial carrot.:hmm:

[Goldfish Jack]

What a 777, together with 3 x B737-300s??

Ja likely one that?

Anyone know if Sker is on the course??

[ERASER]

Heard from the Comair tech rep they are off to the good old USA to have a look at some B737-400's

E

[moonshine707]

:) Yes 737-400 makes sense, it has the right amount of seats:D It will definitely get Mango's attention. Specially after Nico Bezuidenhout's complimentary tickets to Mr Novik?:ok:

[Q4NVS]

Yes 737-400 makes sense, it has the right amount of seats It will definitely get Mango's attention. Specially after Nico Bezuidenhout's complimentary tickets to Mr Novik?

I think it is a more case of the 737-800 getting Kulula's attention, if I understand the Ryanair principle properly.

:}

[evanb]

This rumour is a non-starter! Comair are forbidden to conduct long haul flights, they would require the express permission of BA in London. I am sure that it wouldn't be a problem although I would find it difficult to see how they could get rights, SAA and Nationwide will put up a big big fuss to the extent that Comair would be barred from codesharing with BA on the route which they would have to fly under an MN number. In that case I find it difficult to see how BA would agree to it!

[line-driver]

Comair are forbidden to conduct long haul flights, they would require the express permission of BA in London

I have actually heard that BA mainline were actually ready to supply Comair with B777's about a year or two ago, to operate to the UK with their blessing, there just are not enough seats available on this route, but its the bi-lateral agreements and the slots at the UK side that are a real problem.

The other problem is the hesitant and ever over-cautious Comair board that are scared to take this risk.

The biggest problem in the near future and will be an ever increasing problem is the rate at which the pilots at Comair are now looking at the "sandy" pasture for better working conditions and salary, in a few months time their won't be any-one left to fly even the current aircraft schedules never mind the "dream" of international operations on B777's.

[saywhat]

Now there the truth be told. The biggest problem in the near future and will be an ever increasing problem is the rate at which the pilots at Comair are now looking at the "sandy" pasture for better working conditions and salary, in a few months time their won't be any-one left to fly even the current aircraft schedules never mind the "dream" of international operations on B777's.

[Deskjocky]

The other problem is the hesitant and ever over-cautious Comair board that are scared to take this risk.


Agreed, although this approach has kept them in business for a hell of a long time.

[JetNut]

business science 101

rewards are directly proportional to risk

[evanb]

Slots at Gatwick - not easy but not a problem!

Right between SA and UK - no problem for an SA based carrier - the current billateral allows for 42 weekly freequencies by each country, UK is using all (at least during summer) and SA is using 24 (maybe 27 during summer)!

Leasing a 777 from BA - non starter since they are short of long haul capacity, they are even considering using 757s transatlantic when open skies begin!

Comair's appetite for long haul - not a chance!

[ested]

south african business science 102:

risk is directly proportional to potentially afkaking :}

[rodmur]

Maybe the fact that their licence application for 6 frequencies a week to london was gazetted this week has someting to do with it

[moonshine707]

:) might just be the tiny fire below the little smoke we start to see now:cool:

[line-driver]

Maybe the fact that their licence application for 6 frequencies a week to london was gazetted this week has someting to do with it

Rumours Rumours Rumours,....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[springbok702]

Comair applies for London Route
Johannesburg - 20 August 2007: Comair Limited (Comair), the listed group operating British Airways Domestic and Regional routes and low fare airline, kulula.com - today announced that it had submitted an application to the International Air Services Licensing Council to commence flights to London.
The airline currently carries over 3,3 million customers each year both domestically and within Southern Africa. The most recent route to be added was the Johannesburg – Mauritius route. According to Gidon Novick, Joint CEO of the 61 year old airline group, “We believe that the London route would contribute positively to our already extensive domestic and regional network and are preparing a very strong case for the license application.”
Comair is simultaneously investigating various options to acquire wide-body aircraft that would be required to operate the long haul route.
Ends

[Romeo E.T.]

Comair applies for London Route
Johannesburg - 20 August 2007: Comair Limited (Comair), the listed group operating British Airways Domestic and Regional routes and low fare airline, kulula.com - today announced that it had submitted an application to the International Air Services Licensing Council to commence flights to London.
The airline currently carries over 3,3 million customers each year both domestically and within Southern Africa. The most recent route to be added was the Johannesburg – Mauritius route. According to Gidon Novick, Joint CEO of the 61 year old airline group, “We believe that the London route would contribute positively to our already extensive domestic and regional network and are preparing a very strong case for the license application.”
Comair is simultaneously investigating various options to acquire wide-body aircraft that would be required to operate the long haul route.
Ends

Its sad that one has to read about these things on the net first,

[PAXboy]

(UK, non-pilot speaking but travel this route fairly consistently over the past 41 years)

If they can get the a/c then they will make money. The demand on the ZA route is massive. Consider the following expansion of capacity between ZA and UK:
VS started with 7x to JNB and then added CPT.
SA + BA expanded CPT
Currently 25(?) rotations a week between JNB and LHR - all year.
Nationwide 3x to LGW
FlyGlobespan with (3x?) ex MAN
UK pax are still using KLM and others for cheaper seats on the indirect routings.And yet ... everyone is near, or at, capacity.

If I was on the Comair board, I would be whipping them to get into this market. BA will gladly move some of it's Y pax onto a LGW service if they are full. Further, many UK pax WANT LGW as it has a huge catchment area.

Given that the rest of Europe is also making ZA their No1 choice, I think the goose has several more eggs to lay.

[Mark J B]

Notice up at work about it, so it is nolonger a rumour. Whether it will eventually happen or not remains to be seen. What doesn't add up is that we were told that BA mainline won't allow us to operate to London, so why the change of heart? Could it be that Comair is trying to get the approval so that they can ask mainline to operate these flights for them? This gives mainline the extra frequencies they have not been able to get get before. Perhaps a trade-off for mainlines support on other regional routes? Time will tell.:hmm:

[grgplanes]

Currently 25(?) rotations a week between JNB and LHR - all year.
Nationwide 3x to LGW
FlyGlobespan with (3x?) ex MAN

Corrections:
Currently 35 rotations between JNB and LHR - all year
= 14 SAA, 14 BA + 7 Virgin

Nationwide now operates 4x to LGW - all year
Flyglobespan is only seasonal, but will be 4x weekly SA-MAN from November: = 2xCPT + 2xJNB.

[moonshine707]

Good luck to the Comair guys, at least things are looking up:D Let hope it will be a 777, nice a/c:ok:

[line-driver]

what's too look forward to?, longer than now (already at max) duty hours, more nights away, for the same salary.??

[Pontius' Pilot]

From Business Report:

Comair seeks licence to operate daily flights on London route
August 21, 2007

By AUDREY D’ANGELO

Cape Town - Comair, or its low-cost arm, kulula.com, may soon compete with SAA and Nationwide in offering flights to London from Johannesburg.

The group has applied for a licence to put on daily flights to London.

Gidon Novick, a joint chief executive of Comair, rejected a suggestion that this would be a way for British Airways (BA) to obtain seven more flights a week to South Africa by the back door. He said Comair's BA franchise applied only to southern Africa.

Although air traffic rights granted to BA and Virgin Atlantic Airways in recent years were fewer than they had requested, the government last year stopped protecting SAA's market share because the policy was limiting the growth of tourism. Since then it has allowed more incoming flights by foreign airlines.

Novick was not certain whether the full-service airline or its low-cost division would fly the route if a licence was obtained. That would depend on market research. Both were strong brands in the local market and there were precedents for low-cost airlines to fly long haul routes successfully.

BA owns 12.5 percent of Comair. Novick said the franchise would not necessarily be extended to flights between South Africa and the UK, and Comair passengers would not earn points on BA's Executive frequent flyer programme unless this happened. Kulula passengers do not earn points on the programme.



It was not certain whether the flights would be to Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Luton airports. "The choice is between proximity to central London or congestion. Heathrow is very congested and so is Gatwick. There is also the question of connecting flights to Europe or the US."

Luton airport is used mainly by low-cost airlines flying to Europe.

Virgin Atlantic broke off a codesharing agreement with Nationwide when it began to compete with Virgin on the London route.

BA recently extended its franchise deal with Comair for 10 years. It said Comair was "entirely within its rights to fly where it chooses. It is an excellent operator and we shall continue to work together for the foreseeable future."

Novick said Comair would look for two suitable wide-bodied aircraft for the route if a licence was obtained.

[grgplanes]

If Kulula would be doing the flights, I'd believe that Stansted would be the best choice. That way one can connect to cheap Ryanair, Air Berlin and all the other low-cost carriers there, to mainland Europe as well as some transatlantic flights. Surely pax would be able to fly to places like Sweden, Iceland, Norway, Eastern Europe etc for under R5000-R6000...
A 777 would really look nice in those bright green colours!!!

[Snoopdog100]

Wonder how Mango's CEO are going to respond to this?;)

[JetNut]

SAA management is not fazed ... therefore mango CEO doesn't care

[PAXboy]

Mark J BWhat doesn't add up is that we were told that BA mainline won't allow us to operate to London, so why the change of heart?
My guess is that BA see that, if they support Comair out of LGW/STN, they will at least get a cut of the fare. If they do not help, then the route may be further exploited by Nationwide and BA get zippo. BA win via owning part of Comair and, depending on code share agreements, might win more.

BA are currently in a contraction phase and so to expand an existing agreement that could bring more revenue without any extra hardware? All they have to do is programme the ticketing system? Sounds like an easy decision. But, just a quess.

grgplanes
Thank you for the corrections, I had not realised that the LHR rotations were now at this level. In looking through the timetables for September, I see that BA run to CPT 14x a week and SA are 7x. The post that P.Pilot put in this thread is most interesting and I am glad that the ZA govt is increasing frequencies. Better to have those pax now than never.

[grgplanes]

With BA operating 14x weekly to CPT and Virgin also 7xweekly during summer-time, this together with the same amounts by both airlines to JNB all adds up to 42 frequencies from that side? Now someone mentioned before that both countries only have rights for 42 frequencies at the moment...now where does the 4x weekly flights of Flyglobespan fit in then? Or do they have other special rules or arrangements, operating under a different criteria, like charter or packaged?

[Deskjocky]

We are not perturbed by the application at all, more capacity on the South African end of the bilateral is good news to us - this will take traffic away from the desert carriers, not to mention the likes of KL and AF who top off their existing O&D traffic with interline pax to the UK.

As I see it, this move represents a major move away from Comair's core strategy and puts them into a new space, nice to see some of the traditional conservatism is waning.

[PAXboy]

grgplanes Are there separate tallies for each direct route?

[grgplanes]

Are there separate tallies for each direct route?

No, it's the amount of frequencies between the countries, thus from any point in the UK to any point in SA.

BUT, I have just read on this week's TNW that Flyglobespan will actually NOT go ahead with the MAN-JNB flights, because the latest bilateral talks didn't give anything. The CPT flights are still on. Still this means there is 44 flights by British carriers, or is that the amount now after the last bilateral talks?

So, another shot in the foot for SA tourism...
Maybe if SA carriers start filling up their allocated frequencies, then the SA government might also be more keen to increase the allowed frequencies...21 SA+4 CE+ 6 BA = 31...damn still alot to go, maybe Sunair and Civair...

[Deskjocky]

So, another shot in the foot for SA tourism...


Love that comment.:mad::mad:....whenever you talk to anybody in tourism then everybody talks about the lack of capacity constraining tourism growth. What is REALLY constraining growth is the exorbitant prices tourists pay when they are IN South Africa- from hotels, game lodges, car rental, transfers etc. In the international market South Africa has lost its appeal as an affordable destination. Now when you challenge these industry players about this then they point out that there is a segment of the market they are chasing- and its not the mass market- “after all we don’t want what’s happened to Kenya to happen here now do we” is what you hear. :ugh:

[TwinJock]

I am sure the "bun fight" and "jockeying" for position has begun at Comair. If, and a very big if this operation ever gets off the ground, Martin and his chosen few will be on the conversion!:ugh: The FAA barred their B737-400 from leaving the US, and, B777's are not available at bargain basement prices. Comair should look at the DC10's parked over the road - a bigger chance of getting them off the ground!!!!:D

[Snoopdog100]

:eek::=Those old DC10-10's are all outa component times. Check the major leasinghouse websites, there are many 777's up for a good lease deal!!! Thus the 777 rumour may very well become a reality.

WAKEUP!!!!!!!!!!!! Call to NW MGO if Comair gets 737-400's and a 777 or 2:ok::D

Now we will see who will send who free ticket :ooh::ooh:

[line-driver]

Martin and his chosen few will be on the conversion!:ugh:

thats if this ever gets off the ground

More than likely just a :
1) salary negotiation "softening up tactics"
2) a "block" to other competitors from being awarded the route, for this is only the application to operate, not the intent.

Comair recieved the rights to Luanda and other African "gold-mine" destinations, but sat on the "rights" for the 2 year period and never ever once hinted at starting operations on those routes.

Thus the 777 rumour may very well become a reality.
Not likely

[boypilot]

Deskjockey....


We are not perturbed by the application at all, more capacity on the South African end of the bilateral is good news to us - this will take traffic away from the desert carriers.........

One can understand why you wouldn't be perturbed about Comair when SAA's only shareholder awards an additional 38 frequencies a week to a "desert carrier".

Besides Comair's bound to be short of drivers for their new venture anyway, given their current egress rate to said desert carrier !!!

Touchee not much to be perturbed about ....

.........and for that matter bright green B777 sooner seen on Mars !

[Deskjocky]

Lots of questions going around about those EK frequencies, the DOT maintained a very consistent position on this and then one day it does an about turn......very interesting wonder if there are any new land owners in DXB.....:}

Its going to be very interesting to see them utilize the whole lot- aside from 2010 where they will probably even fly directly into BFN!! I’m guessing they will be happy with opening up CPT on a daily basis to start and growing steadily from there. The reason I say this is that they have had this fixation with CPT for years- although they were never willing to give up JNB capacity to start it, now they can.

If one compares who looses the most traffic on a percentage basis to the desert carriers then this development will be most felt by the likes of KL and AF who source a large percentage of their South African passenger base form their extended networks. CE also give a major slice of the JNB LGW city pair to EK, so perhaps this will get worse.

In terms of SA, the desert carriers have never gone over single figure market share on any of the routes we operate directly, this is will obviously have to be closely monitored going forward.

[777Contrail]

Used to be B757's then B767's now B777's. In 2 year's time it may just be 787's!!!

Europe, South America, Middle East, India.........heard it all before.

Comair will be losing 25% of their pilots this year (last year 20% plus), and just maybe they can stop the bleeding with a good old rumour...............


Mark J B have you been for your interview in DBX?

[Mark J B]

Nope. Only in 3 weeks time. Hold thumbs!:)

[777Contrail]

Mark PM me if you need any info on the process.