is the EC service really SO bad ?

[Paulsddd]

I am still thinking between EC 130 B4 and Bell 407.
Yesterday I was speaking with one guy from helicopter charter company and he told me that I am totaly stupid if I am thinking about ordering EC.
He was teling about some case where someone in europe have a hard landing with EC 135 and is waiting for new cocpit window ... and as he heard - the new widow will be delivered not earlier than in 7 month...

!!! can it be truth?
Is the EC service for spares SO super terrible bad?

.. and he was told me that maitinence cost for EC 130 will be almost twice more than 407...

Is it true?

Pauls

[SHortshaft]

Depends on perception…

Bell and Rolls Royce’s perception of service is to have the spare parts on the shelves of their warehouses ready to deliver to you

Eurocopter and Turbomeca’s perception is that the rapid availability of spare parts is not their problem and that the owner/operator should order a large stock of spare parts (at least 10% of the value of the helicopter) when the aircraft is ordered.

Yes, stories of 8 months delivery against receipt of order are not exceptional, and they are usually true. However remember that Eurocopter truly believe that this is the operator’s problem not theirs.

You have to balance this issue against Eurocopter's superior product line.

[Ian Corrigible]

Can't speak to EC service in E. Europe, but the 130 vs. 407 maintenance maintenance cost claim seems to be bogus. C&DD actually show the 130's DMCs to be 20% lower than the 407's.

I/C

[paco]

Superior? Arguably not overall - the 350 is an example of a good start for a good ship with some cheesy bits to spoil it, probably down to the marketing department, because I can't imagine a real engineer just adding a bit to the tail rotor trailing edge with rivets, thereby introducing an easy place for cracks to start, instead of designing a new one. And before you start, yes Bell are guilty of it too. EC scores worst in the flight manual department, as well, although not by much - why should I pay several million $ for a machine to get a manual that was typed by someone with boxing gloves on?

However, having operated Bell and EC, I know that EC will be bottom of any list I have in the future precisely because of the support issue, regardless of how good or suitable the machine may be for the job. People with businesses to run don't need that kind of customer support! To extend their logic, every time we buy a car, we should also buy almost another one in bits? I don't think so!

Phil

[docstone]

I operate both EC and B407 - Bell every time. Turbomeca are just abysmal - 9 month AOG last year thanks to their incompetence and attitude.

[Blackhawk9]

The Jamaican Defence force have just replaced there 4 x AS355N's with 4 x 407's, though the 355 was well liked and only 5 years old the upkeep and support was the killer , now have an all bell fleet 412's and 407's, easier for training ,spares costing and support. Jamaica is a small not that well off country to change a/c that are that new, shows that ongoing costs were the killer for them.

[SawThe Light]

Hey Paco,

Who were the guys rivetting the tab to the Astar tail rotor?

Eurocopter bond the tabs when they do the job, and the jig locating holes are filled with real soft ali rivets after the jig pins are removed.

I agree that I couldn't imagine a real engineer simply riveting them on, but I guess you must have seen someone do it. No wonder the thing started cracking.

[PANews]

Blackhawk9

I have no inside line on this but I would not consider that simply replacing a twin 355N with a single 407 was not wholly down to manufacturer support issues. After all an air force is more likely than other operators to carry significant spares.

Perhaps the relative complexity and consequent drain on engineering capability of a twin [perhaps made worse by the spares supply issues raised above] was a significant driver to move to a single. If it were not a single/twin issue they might perhaps have been expected to take on 427's.

If the 355N's have been withdrawn have you any idea where they were sold on to?

[Blackhawk9]

PANews, it was a combination of things though support (or lack of) from EC was one , as Jamaica is not that rich they only keep a small spares supply just like a civil operator and Bell can get spares to Kingston same day on daily flights from Fort Worth and to operate a single brand was easier on spares,tooling and training as to who has the 355N's now I don't know they were put up for sale by the Jamaican Govt in April.

[nigelh]

Good luck is all i can say to the buyer....the only 355N i know well has had

new engine x2
new horizontal stabs x2
new whole tail x1

but to be fair it has done 200hrs :rolleyes:

I have just had new starflex, sleeves,asymm bearings and swashplate o/haul and apart from being eyewateringly expensive the timing was pretty quick. The real problem is turbomeca and that is why i am looking at changing engine to an american make ......

[paco]

sawthelight - just look at the trailing edge of the average 350/355 tail rotor blade - there is an addition along the edge, which may well be bonded, but there is also a bloody great rivet at each end which has to be checked at the end of each flight. It's obviously done at the factory, but I think it could have been a tidier job, as could the hydraulic pump belt.

And speaking of starflexes, we never had one go past 1800/1900 hours - it may have been the intensive work we put them through chasing those mosquitoes along the powerlines, but they should get a lot nearer than that to their target life!

I would agree with nigelh that turbomeca are a significant problem, but we still had three months downtime on a ship waiting for a gearbox overhaul, even though the engines (Allison 250s) were ready ages before.

phil

[nigelh]

Must be the work you do ...my starflex,sleeves and swashplate all went the full hours, only thing that didnt was the rubber asymmetric bearings which always look perished when left out in the sun. Mine were rejected and thrown in the bin by one of our finest maintenance ops , only for me to take them out of the bin and get another co to refit them . That was over 1,000 hrs ago !!!!:D
Still interested to hear any views re the LTS101 engine for the 350 BA.....I am told up to 15% fuel savings, extra 1,000 TBO and no calender life.....AND joy of joys....NOT french :ok::ok:

[Paulsddd]

yes..... looks like EC is the looser in this case...

I dont need a heli for at least 2-4m for staying in hangar for some x month in a year just waiting for spareparts....

... even if it looks better and is much more confortable than oldstylish bell ....:ugh:

So - EC guys - you just have lost one corporate buyer ... and looks there will be a lot more same as me.... if you will not change your attitude :bored:

only If you can offer me something like - contract with superhuge penalties from your side .... ???

[BIGJOCK]

I operate both EC130 and B407 .From a pilots point of view the Bell wins every time ,its smoother ,faster and handles with ease.The 130 is sloppy and bumpy at high speed and the fenestron is very poor in x-wind conditions.ECs have many problems getting parts and have many ADs and sevice bulletins now.Doors are also a major problem with 130 .

Dont even think of an EC130 ,go for Bell 407 !

[St. Venant]

Or forget both of those and buy a real aircraft like a 119Ke Koala :}

[HeloBeez]

The 130 is vastly more comfortable than the 407, the fenestron works fine and I dare say probably has at least as much if not more T.R. auth. as the bell. Dual FADEC with hydromechanical backup compared to bell's dodgy setup. If you like, you can switch over to the new LTS-101 and save a bundle on your next engine overhaul. Plus it looks like it was designed in the last few decades instead of the 60's.

About the only good thing I can say for the bell is that the support might be better, and it's certainly a little bit faster.

If it was my money, I'd buy the EC-130.
HB

[nigelh]

Who has switched over recently from turbomeca to the LTS 101 ? Have you heard any reports about performance or reliability etc I hear the LTS may be a little bit slower to react than the turbomeca ? Any info welcome N

[Tango and Cash]

I know Soloy and some others are putting LTS101s in AS350BAs and AS350B2s, but have never heard of an EC130 "upgrade". Anyone know who is doing this and what the benefits are (performance and/or cost)?

[Dynamic Component]

Why don't we compare aples with aples.
Lets compare the AS350 B3 to the Bell 407.

Yes Turbomecas survace is crap to say the least.
I have never heard of a B3 pilot complain about a lack of power. I have heard a few complain about the 407s power (I'm talking about 30deg C OAT here)
I have never heard of a B3 shopping its own tail of.
I Know of atleast 4 407s doing this.
The B3 is just as quick as the 407 fully loaded.(If not quicker)
The B3 now has a option of Dual Hydraulics.
The B3 will lift over a tonn on the hook.-the 407 might, depending on conditions.
I have heard of 2 occations of a company overtorqueing their 407s. Never heard of a company doing it in a B3. (I'm sure there would be atleast one at there)
The B3 has a gong that warns you when you have reached your power limit.
All passengers in a B3 face forward.
I have heard of many a passenger getting sick while seated in the rear facing seats in the 407.
The B3 has the VEMD with the FLI that makes life so much easier.
I have seen 407s aswell as B3s AOG for times that were unexeptable.
In my books the 407 is the better looking one, but the B3 is the better aircraft.

Just my 25c:}

[SawThe Light]

DC

You are correct with all of your points, even the one about the old 1960's look of the 407.

I think however that there might be some folks here that won't like living in the past with regards design, so the 407 just might not win the prize for looks. For me, an old deathranger on steroids looks just fine. So does a Ford Model A.

Just as an aside, generally the loudest criticisim comes from those who don't operate the type, but know a guy who knows a guy who has a buddy that heard that the XXXXX was a piece of crap, so it it must be true, like the mis-information about the Astar T/R tab.

[paco]

Dynamic - you are correct! However, those are all pilot things! When it becomes a hangar queen and you can't make money, it becomes a different story!

I love flying the AS 350/355, they're great ships, but if I can run a company with something else first, I will do it.

Phil

[Dynamic Component]

If the machine is going to be a hangar queen, why not buy something like an 206 L3 or L4? They cost a fraction of the price of the 407 and B3/B4 and have a better safety record.(Easier Autos).

paco-We operate AS350s and I would not change them for anything else. A 407 would not be able to do what we do.I think it was said earlier- the french products are good, but the after sales service is lacking BIG TIME.
It has not yet affected us to the degree where we would swap to a different manufacturer.I do however think that the Honeywell engine conversion on the BA and B2 are excellent ideas and can't wait for the B3 version.:E

These are just my opinions.Please don't loose sleep over them:}

:ok: