RAF Argosy crewing query

[Krystal n chips]

To settle a discussion I had last night please, I have a query about the crew compliment of the RAF Argosy....I say the usual crew would have been a Capt. / Co . Nav, Air Eng and an ALM. My mate says no Air Eng as he was certain there was no dedicated panel for him......we could both be wrong of course.

I only had one air ex. trip as an app. in a Screaming T£T from Benson to Benson in (solid cloud ) and my only memory is of a side ladder on the right hand side to access the flight deck...so not a lot to go on, just my assumption the RAF would have had a 5 man crew as standard.

All relevant info appreciated please. There is a side bet to the correct answer btw.

[Speedbird48]

The Argosy, Bensons finest, most definatly did have a Flight Engineer in RAF service. And, all the rest of the congregation that you mention., plus I believe an R/O.

As for the dedicated panel ,the Beverly didn't have one either, but it did have a Flight Engineer.

That machine, Argosy, was the best crew transport that Her Majesty ever provided. Couldn't carry any form of useful payload, but was great to bring the shopping home.

Speedbird 48.

[chevvron]

My first ever flight 2 hours of circuits at Benson in an Argosy; I filled two puke bags and then they chucked me off and carried on!!

[om15]

Krystal,
Like you, my first ever flight was as an app in a whistling tit from Benson to Benson, later on proper flights here and there,
As mentioned above the RAF aircraft had Eng, and the ex RAF aircraft that were sold on to Zaire carried a Flight Engineer, however I am pretty sure that the civilian variant operated by Air Bridge Carriers did not, whether the RAF aircraft had a different layout to the civilian types, or different Operating Procedures I am not sure.
Dimly remember modifying a 70 Sqn aircraft at Akrotiri, I think we fitted a fridge on board, held in place with 9G self tappers.
Best regards,
om15

[Krystal n chips]

Thanks to all so far for the info.:ok:....the inclusion of a R/O is likely to deprive me of my winnings in terms of alcohol however:{.....can this be confirmed at all please ?

OM15, this was actually our second air ex. flight c/o the Halton Hilton....the first was in a Vickers Funbus and the highlight, coughs, was that on or about the 6th touch and go at Brize, the baby Loadmistress who had so kindly briefed us all as to the use of the sick bag......duly recycled her lunch :):E

Sympathy did, of course, emanate forth from the assembled apprenti at this point.

[Krystal n chips]

Bral......well you were always good at ferreting around in the dark :D:E....Pip probably has then stowed next to his, er, "finery" collection;)

Am pretty certain the ladder was on the right...there again...I have been known to be wrong. You could always ask the Scotland's most modest pilot on your next sim ride of course......I understand he had a flirtation with the beast at some point.

[stevef]

The ladder was on the left side, directly opposite the entrance door. Air Bridge Carriers operated as two-crew although a flying spanner often occupied the middle seat if the aircraft was working away from base. I worked on them for a short while: Air Bridge's and the low-houred Rolls Royce Argosy (G-APRM or RN?), which was scrapped at Exeter in the mid-eighties.
Sorry if you've got to buy the beers, Krystal!

[Robert Cooper]

ladder was definately on the left. At Benson IIRC it was a crew of 4 and no Signaller.

Bob C

[Krystal n chips]

Thanks again for all the replies.:ok:....the beer issue rests on the crew of 4 or 5....if it was 4, would that be minus a Nav then ?.

Can't think why an Air Sig would have been carried either....others may know of course ?

[mhod]

I flew the RAF Argosy for some 8 years based at Benson, Bahrain and Aden. Splendid and comfy crew transport but underpowered and with a much too heavy floor to save using load-spreaders for an armoured car that was modified so it would not fit in the freight bay. Standard crew was 5: Pilot, co-pilot, Nav, Eng and Air Quartermaster (subsequently changed to Air Loadmaster). Sometimes we carried more than one ALM for para dropping or or a MAMs team when no movers were at a destination such as Buraimi Oasis (exciting when carrying 45 gallon drums of Avpin!).
Hope this helps.

[Krystal n chips]

mhod,

My blood / alcohol level is indebted to you ! Many thanks:ok:

As for carting Avpin around.......must have been "good fun" ;)

[POHL]

I flew both RAF and civilian Argosy types. RAF crew was as previously discribed 2Pilots Nav and Flt Eng with/without Aqm.
The BEA Argosy were of two types 102's and 222's both flown with a two
Pilot crew with all controls/functions operable from the front seats.
The most important thing to remember about climbing the Argosy was not
to loose any height!

[merryterry]

I am not a pilot so I am just making an observation on the subject of Argosy's at Benson. I lived at Ewelme near Benson some years ago when the Argosy's were based there. One evening we were on the cricket pitch at Ewelme and the Argosy's were doing circuits and bumps. One Argosy banked steeply behind the village and the wing tip sliced through a clump of trees at the back of our house and brought a load of branches down. I cannot think for the life of me why they were in that position as it is at 90 degrees to the runway and about 1 nm away.

[Synthetic]

I started my career on the Argosy sim at Benson (RAF joke - you're posted onto Tornado, but it's not ready yet, so we'll put you somewhere appropriate:confused:). By this time, the Argosy was no longer in regular service, but the sim was kept on as a generic air eng trainer. The engineers station was in desk format on the starboard side of the flight deck. It had a set of engine instruments, the l.e. de-iceing control unit, water/methanol controls, and all the systems instrumentation.

[JW411]

I flew the Argosy in the RAF for ten years. The ladder was most definitely on the port side. The F/E's empire was on the starboard side of the cockpit bubble facing sideways. The navigator sat behind him facing backwards. The AQM/ALM usually had a desk downstairs up forward on the starboard side facing backwards.

The Argosy was the first Transport Command aircraft NOT to carry a signaller (R/O). Since the aircraft was fitted with single sideband HF sets there was no longer a need for a morse key.

We did have a couple of AEOs or Siggies on the HQ staff to give us advice. I well remember Frankie Burke. He was the only chap to get injured when Hastings WD492 hit the Greenland ice cap whilst supply-dropping on 16/9/1952.

[JW411]

mhod:

Funny that; all of my club gliders had A12A regulators (except the Ka-4) and I know that I still have a couple in the attic!

bral:

What on earth were you doing with 45 gals of AVPIN at Daudi?

[old,not bold]

For those of us who only used Argosy's for jumping out of (after enjoying the downwards hatch in the floor of the Beverley's boom) the problem was the curve of the door, if you were No 1; you had to lean forwards to get a hand outside each side in the approved fashion, and would nearly overbalance while waiting for the green.

What I'm waiting for on this thread is the admission/confession/abject apology from the navigationally-challenged Argosy crew who offloaded quite a few of us into a muddy estuary one night instead of the DZ........ I bet they're still laughing.

[Fareastdriver]

I joined the RAF in 1960 in the then Rhodesia. One of the rules were that if you didn't get married or anything stupid like that you could give up your annual leave and take two months Dom Col leave in you country of attestation. I did and I was transported out to Rhodesia in early '65 whilst they were scrapping my Valiants. Come the return I was fixed up with an Argosy flight to Khormakser and then a trooping flight to the UK.
I got on the Alsoggy at Salisbury (Harawe) and found that the aircraft was being flown by a NEAF VVIP, possibly an ex-spitfire pilot. Apart from the odd taxiway light between the mainwheels and fuselage the flight to Nairobi went as planned. At Nairobi I was told to get my bag off and go to Eastliegh, now a KAF training school and await further transport to the UK. I spent three days there because I was bumped to make way for a load of topsoil for somebody's garden.

[forget]

I spent three days there because I was bumped to make way for a load of topsoil for somebody's garden.

That would be Johnny Johnson's famed Middle East garden then.;)

[JW411]

Fareastdriver:

I think I am right in saying (as an ex-105 Squadron captain) that JEJ's compost was put on a Beverley.

bral:

WOG; certainly - I was the CFI.

[A and C]

For a time I was flying the Electra for Zantop (EXS contract) out of Willow Run Detroit.

A few of the crews had flown the Argosy in Zantop service mostly on an american military contract (Logair I think?) they all said that for the short range cargo opps it was a superb aircraft, as the cargo moved out of the aft door the new load was being pushed into the front door. The limmiting factor for turnaround time was the speed that the Flight Engineer could get the fuel onto the aircraft.

[tinpis]

Was it fact the (an)Argosy was in the USA during the Cuban missile crisis on loan to SAC?

[rubik101]

I flew Argosys both on 105 Sqn and 70 Sqn in Akrotiri. 70 was a Hercules Squadron but had 3 Argosies attatched to it.
One, XP444 was fitted out as VVIP for the CinC of NEAF.
XP 402 was a sort of hybrid, sometimes used as VIP transport and sometimes as a frieghter.
One other, 403, maybe, was painted in camouflage and tramped around the Middle East doing all sorts of itinerant jobs; supplying various embassies, dropping paras, pax to NATO meetings, etc.
Flying the Argosy with 2 pilots, one F/Eng a Nav and one or more Loadmasters was just about the most relaxing way to fly for the RAF you could imagine.
Mind you, getting iced up over Tehran one afternoon had its moments of terror!

[tinpis]

Argosy could still be heard in Singapore in 1982.
IPEC VH-BBA to Kris Air for aid charters to Saigon and Cambodia

[7FF]

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd308/7FF_2007/EndofXN817WestFreughOct011984Pic2.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd308/7FF_2007/EndofXN817WestFreughOct011984Pic1.jpg
For all you Argo truck fans..........the very last one in RAF service. XN817 West Freugh Oct 01 1984 RIP

[JW411]

rubik101:

I hate to be pedantic but XP402 and XP403 were Westland Whirlwinds!

XP412 ended up with 70 Squadron. The other one could either be XP413 (which had the plimsol line on the side after its wetting in Khormaksar) or XP443.

[rubik101]

I stand corrected! You are right. I have been looking for my old RAF log book since I wrote with the niggling feeling that i was in error! The Plimsoll line was always a good talking point when we went down route. Considering it was in salt water up to that point (about eye level inside the main cabin) the aircraft behaved very well in the time I flew on it.
What a wonderful crew transport it was!

[mcdhu]

I remember watching one settle gently onto the grass close to R/w 06 (unusual) at Bex after an asymmetric landing had gone wrong during Mct
(1970?). It must have been well built because all on board walked away without injury apart from dented pride.

Cheers
mcdhu

[dwhcomputers]

For all the Argosy fans I would recommend reading Drop Zone Borneo by Roger Annett available at
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/product.php?productid=1205&cat=0&page=1
Please note this is not an advert but I have read this book and found it a damm good read and brought a lot of memories back of my time at Kutching

[JW411]

mcdhu:

"I remember watching one settle gently on to the grass close to R/W 06..."

I'm going to be pedantic again!

I think you are referring to the demise of XP441 which did indeed depart runway 06 at Benson on 04.06.70. It was, however, less than gentle.

I was inbound from Wildenrath that glorious afternoon in XN850 with the late Archie Coutts in the right seat when we were told by London Control to expect a lengthy delay on arrival as Benson had presently got no fire cover.

On such a nice day that could only mean that the fire department had used up all of their resources!

The captain of XP441 was having a check ride with one of the wing pilots (J.R.). He was on his final landing (very prosaic) with an outboard engine actually shut down. He bounced (that would have been OK) but he decided to go around on 3-engines off the bounce!

The wing pilot took control and might even have got away with it (for the aircraft was very light) but the trainee captain decided to help by pulling the flaps up! This was not a good idea at the time and the aircraft cart-wheeled across the airfield.

I visited the wreckage after landing for I was a training captain on the Squadron involved. One of the engines had detached completely and would have gone through part of Benson village if the chain link fence outside Passey's scrap yard hadn't stopped it. The starboard main leg and wheels had punctured the starboard fuselage side underneath the wing and were now lying in the rear freight doors having flattened most of the passenger seats. Luckily, there were no passengers on board.

All on board survived and the trainee captain finally decided that he did not have a future in Transport Command (or whatever we called it at the time).

A brief description from the Air-Britain publication I have in front of me is:

"Bounced on landing and wing tip hit the ground; broke up, Benson, 4.6.70"

Not quite "settled gently on to the grass".

[mcdhu]

JW 411,

Thanks for putting me right - 37 years is a long time. I was a co on TQF at the time and I just remember looking out of the window of the FW crewroom to see a large cloud of dust/soil which, when it had settled, revealed a bent Argosy and people moving smartly away.

I also remember quite a fierce night in the OM bar that night with 2 very distinct 'factions'.

Regards,
mcdhu

[forget]

N Reg Argosy. Seletar I think, from the Bristow site.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/212taildown_big.jpg

[Akubra]

For those who haven't seen this video, Here is NZ's Safe Air documentary hosted on youtube.
It runs for about 12 minutes and if your internet connection is slow, pause it and let it download before playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCzb0wiWhk

[Speedbird48]

Thanks for the memories Akubra.

I only flew in the Argosy once, but the Bristol Freighter clip will have me awake for several nights. The memories of the cold, and the rain coming in are still there. The heater never worked or you were constantly changing the spark plug on the thing after cleaning it with a wire brush carried for the purpose.

A cross wind was always a challenge for the faint hearted, and for the brave.

The Argosy was a gentlemans carriage by comparison and the best crew transport the RAF ever had!!

There was a kids movie, allegedly taken in Korea, with one of Safe Airs Bristols that had some wonderful flying, both of the Bristol and the NZ Air Force A4 trying to formate in it!!

Sorry a slight hi-jack of the thread.

Speedbird48.

[JW411]

mcdhu:

"Two very different factions in the bar that night".

That is actually a very astute observation. You probably don't remember it but Flying Training Command had got this great idea of turning the Argosy into a multi-crew trainer when it came out of transport service.

The idea was to have pilots, navigators, flight engineers, AEOs and ALMs all being trained together in one aeroplane at the same time.

The idea was (as are many wonderful MOD-inspired ideas) completely absurd. For example, the pilots wanted to do circuits and bumps but the navigators wanted to do long distance navigation flights etc. etc. etc. It was a great idea but completely impractical.

As a squadron training captain I suddenly got involved with a chap who had been posted in to the squadron but who had not done outstandingly well on his OCU course at Thorney Island.

He was a lovely guy and quite experienced but he had spent his entire (and quite long) flying career on single-seaters or else instructing on an FTS.
It transpired that Flying Training Command had sent him to suss out this multi-training idea for them and the word was put around that he had to succeed.

The poor chap was suddenly thrust into having to look after a 4-engined aeroplane with a 5-man crew flying around the world having never having done anything like it before and all of this as a direct entry captain!

I, and many others, worked very hard on his behalf but the learning curve was just too steep at his age. A moment that still goes through my mind from time to time was an arrival into Trondheim in a snow storm. We did an ILS to the easterly runway to make a circling approach to the westerly runway (the wind was westerly at 30 knots).

As we followed the orange circling lights downwind in the snow, a red and green wooden house with a light on the roof came out of the gloom.

It was above us!

At this stage I thought I had better start intervening for the rest of the crew were getting restive.

"Give me a clue mate, are you going to go round that house to the right or the left"?

"What bloody house"? said he "I'm too busy looking at the instruments"!!!!!!!!

Sadly, I have to report that when Archie and I came back from Wildenrath that beautiful summer afternoon and were warned that we might have a bit of a problem on arrival, I had an outbreak of foreboding and immediately said to Archie "I wonder if this has anything to do with our friend".

It was all a great shame. Luckily, no one got hurt in a physical way but I have often wondered about the poor chap concerned. He was obviously very good at his real job but some peanut in MOD decided to send him into a totally different environment. If you are still going my friend, then good luck to you.