Middle East salaries

[divingduck]

So, what do the rest of the gulf ATCOs think of the new GCAA package in Abu Dhabi??

40,000 dhms per month...plus a few extras along the way.

[BlueSkye]

Me thinks a little tete-a-tete with various beverages should be arranged at the Cantankerous Bovine to discuss this prickly issue.

The first of many nails in SERCO's coffin. Yippeeeee.

[the Shue]

Verc,

"given the current instability in the GCAA whereby the Project Manager, SOTO, CAISO, CATCO, GCAA Deputy Director, Director Finance & Admin, Manager HR and the Engineer Manager Sheikh Zayed Centre have all been culled in the last six months..."

Where do you think they got the money for the raises from?? :hmm:

Wouldn't have to run away from banks with that kind of money. C'mon home guys.

[Fox3snapshot]

Damn happy bout the new package....but realistically you could double my salary again and I'd still be broke! :\

I need a moral guidance officer and a director of home finances :p

Now where is that next grand Prix on at......:E

[divingduck]

Bluesky....(assumes Darth Vader voice) come and join us on the dark side....it is your destiny!

The Crabbit Coo is open all hours, as was evidenced last night:eek: Bit of a thick head this morning...the others didn't look too flash either!

Verci, welcome back...you said initially that it wasn't enough, I will say that like all journey's it is a good step in the right direction.

Wonder how many bites we will now get from Muscat...I hear that the newbies are none too pleased down there, when they do the conversion, they will see 4200 of the earth rials per month, plus overtimes if you want them may reflect upon their own packages poorly.

Foxxy...you need a good woman...or a bad one:E you can give up F1 now...your boy has had his podium finish:p

[thunderfromdownunder]

So, what does the 40,000 package include. Is that include salary and housing. What are the additional extras.

[pac man]

Diving Duck and Foxy, me thinks its time to shed the raincoat and bags of air and reunite amongst the nomads. Guys please send me the low down asap:8

[BlueSkye]

The 40K includes everything. Housing, schooling, watering, lighting, traveling, drinking. There might be a bonus every year if you are a good boy (sorry Fox) and the housing allowance can be discussed with GCAA up to a point.

As 36DD said, a step in the right direction. A well timed "price war" every now and then never hurt anyone. Serco may pay on time, but they pay less. I feel an invisible pull from the dark side. Must be my father calling.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to start this one up. A good thing too.

I know our Contract ManageR doesn't read this but maybe someone will pass on the message that it is about time that Serco dipped into those deep pockets of theirs and started to share a bit of that wealth rather than shrugging their shoulders and saying "What can we do???".

I have it on good authority that Serco got over a 50% price rise from GCAA on each and every controller spot at the last contract renegotiation, and skimmed that increase before passing on less to the controllers. They also for years have scammed the guys when they first arrive by paying them a training salary for the first 3 months even though GCAA pay Serco full money from the time the guy steps of the aircraft. There is a nice profit there if they want to dip into it, and don't believe that there is not.

The ball is well and truly in Serco's court and the clock is ticking very loudly. The question is do Serco really want to stay in the ATC game in Abu Dhabi or not? I guess in the next couple of weeks we will find out. Personally I have to wait till Princess Leia and the Ewoks get back from Summer holiday before we do the figures and decide whether to cross over to the dark side, but 40K plus end of service benefit, annual increases of 3-5 % and a yearly bonus of a months salary makes it a no brainer of a decision right now.

Oh and to all the GCAA guys, and most importantly to the local guys who have been horribly underpaid for a long time, a hearty congratulations on the increase. Well deserved and it's your shout for the GCAA sandwiches, extra chilli from Rolla next time we are on shift!!:ok:

[the Shue]

Serco is well aware of the GCAA salary increases and there is a meeting this week to discuss their reply.

Since Serco stands to lose either way with their reaction: a) Don't give any salary increases and have controllers cross over to the dark side thus losing those controller positions (and $$ as result.) b) Increase the Serco package and take that money off the bottom line; I would anticipate Serco to delay their official response by at least a month (disguised as "high level meetings") to put off the inevitable.

"IF" Serco wanted to claim any sort of respectability in this situation, they should realize that they cannot find a winning edge in this predicament and make their decision promptly. This would show me, for one, that Serco had already anticipated the GCAA pay raise, (which they should have) and had already prepared a response plan ready to be actionned.

[clipped_wings]

Don't knock the SERCO package before you do your sums.

Minimum cost of a three bedroom flat in Abu Dhabi is 10,000 pcm month and more like 12,000 for anything up to the same standard as the Najdah Street flats. SERCO get the flats for 7,000 pcm?

Keep also in mind rent is paid yearly in advance. You have to be careful about how you time a voluntarily departure but what about a forced departure?

SERCO will give you a raise annually if you keep your nose clean. On past history the next GCAA review will be in seven years time.

Then there are utility bills, furniture, compassionate tickets, etc all of which should be factored into your equation.

I'm not saying SERCO is the better deal, only you must do your sums and your own risk assessment,

Sorry NASA but I don't think it’s the no brainer for all, only for some and have you factored in the risk assessment.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I stand to be corrected but from what I have heard in the short time since the increases were announced, is that there will be a 3-5% increase annually to the salary dependant on appraisal results.

As far as the rent issues are concerned I agree that this is something to consider, but honestly the days of saying that the Sheikh Tahnoon and Subaru Builidings are acceptable accomodation are well and truly over, not to mention what they consider to be acceptable furniture.

Utility bills are currently deducted from our salary so they are not being paid by Serco but by us. And while on that point they deduct 500 dirhams a month and hold that money before returning the unused money annually even though the utility bills for all of us are well below that amount, ie. they pocket the interest earned on at least 2 or 3 thousand dirhams per controller per year.

Annual tickets back home are also paid by us and not Serco and this deducted from our salary each month. Compassionate flights home may be paid for by Serco but I know of only a few times this has been utilised by staff so not really a big factor in the calculations.

As I said the furniture is not worth considering, since most guys have given up living with furniture held together with gaffer tape and gone out to replace the furniture with their own purchases.

Finally I agree with you that each person has to do their own sums and work out what is best for them, but at the same time Serco needs to do their sums, and quickly, to decide if they really want to keep this contract and if so how far they are willing to dip into their own pockets.

[the Shue]

ANSA, don't forget the Armani uniform.

[Fox3snapshot]

Bolox mate.....your perceptions of GCAA are well off the mark. I have had an annual 3% + payrise since joining, received 2 months bonus salary this year and now the new package! My 117,000 DHS rental contract is all handled by GCAA and paid up front and I can assure you my admin cell is a well oiled machine compared to the bureaucracy of the admin nazis in Serco who seem to think your entitlements are coming out of their own pocket! :hmm:

No regrets whatsoever, in fact I am so glad I made the move when I did....it has certainly paid off! :D

[ShooTheGap]

I am still amazed at the detractors from various countries. To get a 20 percent raise,in any "western" nation, even in the high inflation years of the late 80's one would have to have a union, go on strike, occupy govt offices and shut down a country. Here, you get the money before the official announcement!
And for good measure, they have now added an EOS benefit and Medical coverage.
Remember a certain Great Dane... 6-12-18 is dead!
4-0 thats a sweep!, I'm out of here!
40K baby...In the bank plus OT, i am happy!

[Track Coastal]

What sort of coin are APP radar on at Bahrain, Dubai and Abu Dhabi? Do you have to work for Serco as an APP controller or can you cut a deal with the CAA?

[heywa]

40K baby...In the bank plus OT, i am happy!

I'm slightly confused with some of the replies here. Shoothegap you say here 40K in the bank, does that mean housing and utilities etc are in fact paid over and above this amount? Blueskye mentions it covers everything, in which case it is not such a good package afterall.

Sounds pretty good if it is as per Shoothegap's comment, there will be several bites from down here in Muscat I'm sure. Annual bonus is all good too.

We are waiting with baited breath down here, what is the official package? Lay it on us :}

[Quokka]

The new salary in Abu Dhabi is almost exactly the equivalent of a $250,000 salary before tax in Australia... well done boys!

(Calculated using the www.ato.gov.au website simple tax and Medicare Levy calculator, assuming the person is single, without children and with no Medicare exemptions, no Fringe Benefits and no Salary Sacrifice arrangements)

[divingduck]

Hey small rat like marsupial...how's Muscat?

That 250K sounds about right, slightly over 150K tax free given the current currency rates. If the USD goes up and the AUD goes back down where it belongs, this will start to look really good.

5 years ago, the rial was worth $5.55 aussie...it's currently 3.05. Both the Dirham and the rial are pegged to the dollar, so pray for GWB to get out of office before doing anything else stupid, the Dems to get in there and John Howard to get tossed out of office and Labor to get up.

Shoo the gap seems to be on some kind of medication...we all looked at his post at length last night and couldn't make head nor tail out if it. Maybe I'm just the dumb farm boy that I am regularly accused of being?
The only thing I understood was the 2000 dirhams for every overtime shift worked. One of our controllers did 3 last month, so will get 46000 next payday!

heywa, the 40k (4205 rials to you guys down there) is all in.
Unlike Muscat there is a guaranteed bonus each year (minimum 16K), a 3-5% increase every year, and a End of Service benefit. Not sure about the health insurance, haven't been back from leave long enough to find out, the one provided to all government employees is basically similar to the one in Oman. To get very good worldwide insurance, the GCAA has a deal that for 2000 dirhams per year, you get private coverage, and that includes prescriptions.
That is a system that I have used a few times and is very user friendly.

Come to the dark side....it is your destiny!

[ShooTheGap]

DD, I would never call you a farm boy. I did not mention anything about 2000 OT. Lets do this together. 40K-33K=7K OK? 7K raise is 20%+ raise. Thats it.
Where i come from the govt do not give me housing, they take taxes. What goes in my account is nowhere close to my salary. So In the Bank, means that all my salary makes it to my bank. Sure I pay to live where I want, but no one shoves a Subaru down my throat!
And now we also get 3 weeks per year of service EOS benefits which quantifies to another 1000 dhs per month or so.
So I quit my meds and i can say thank you and I am happy. I know it is hard to imagine that in the ME.
Sorry you all had to scratch your heads about it last night...it was not a riddle!
P.S. I like the new management too! can you believe that! :ugh:

[Fox3snapshot]

Also Provided, saw the memo today. There is another deal with our housing that I won't discuss here but if proven true makes it even more worthwhile. :ok:

[Quokka]

Hey Ducky!!

Muscat's been particularly cold this time of year... hasn't topped 50C yet. Just got back from a very pleasant stroll along the beach and, for a change, not drenched in sweat!

Fox, you just answered the only other question I had... now, where do I sign?

[Fox3snapshot]

Quokka,

It'll never hit 50 degrees mate, otherwise they have to send all the laborers home...49.9 is as high as the DGCAM met departments thermometers are allowed to go.... :E

Now as for signing, PM if you need the GCAA email address :ok:

[ShooTheGap]

Fox 3 snapshot is actually correct. I heard that the housing allowance built into the 40 K amounts to 8600. However, this can be negotiated and GCAA would possibly provide housing up to a certain amount...Also, any transferring costs from Serco to GCAA are open to discussion.
Furthermore, dont forget that as a GCAA you are entitled to yearly bonuses, usually minimum one month salary.
Also, heard a rumour that GCAA will provide guarantee of between 3-5 percent increase per year for the next 5 years.
Anybody interested should go in and request details in writing as to not only make decisons based on rumours. Remember a group speaks louder than individuals.

[the Shue]

Looks like SERCO's response, if any, is going to be next month because of high level meetings that have to take place with the GCAA. Never saw that coming.:hmm:

I guess SERCO wants to know if they have a future in Abu Dhabi or not. Years of pinching fils in order to maximize short term profits at the expense of long term stability and growth have finally caught up with them.

Expat controllers have learnt to associate 'SERCO' with 'cheap'. Now it is up to SERCO to change that image and invest in their future by producing a package that doesn't just only 'better' the GCAA offer but is substantial enough to fill the ACC with expat controllers and show the GCAA who really knows how to run the show here.

Or they can continue to maximize short term profits to the bitter end.:rolleyes:

[Tin-Bullet]

The SHUE.....

U're right mate about SERCO's 'BiG' Meeting end of August....

We will all see if we keep getting 'bs' all along.....

In Dubai it's rumoured about this rise, which up to now, has only been excuse after excuse.....a.k.a delaying tactics...:D

This year alone in approx 8 months, approx 8-9 ATCOs HAVE RESIGNED with MORE TO FOLLOW FOR SURE in next coming months......

If SERCO think we are 'bs-ing',, they got it alll wrong again..Now if DCA realy wanna move things, we could really get somthing.....SERCO have got it all wrong, as they should have proposed a better deal earlier this year...:ugh:

But be warned...... AT LEAST 4 more, MINIMUM, to resign by year end, which by THIS TIME in writing, we are ALREADY 20 LESS STAFF as per compliment, & 2008 the exodus of majority of the KIWIS & some DANES, not to mention the other who are ONLY waiting for the latest, about the rise.....

Another thing, it is NOT ONLY ATCO's who are resigning, but also ATC Engineers.... 2 have actually resigned lately, with MORE to follow unless there's an IMPROVEMENT!!

SERCO have been laughing in our faces, all along......

But.....

'WHO LAUGHS LAST - LAUGHS BEST'...........:E:E:E

[heywa]

DD, I might just have to come to the dark side. It plays on my mind more often than not now! My big concern is the accomodation though. What are people living in? Where are they living? How much are they paying? Is a 3-5% annual increase going to address the issue of increased rent. Oman too has this problem, there is no gaurantee rents will ease, and therefore the contract may continue to be eroded. Apart from this concern, your contract is looking very sound. I understand you get a minimum of one months bonus per annum, so potential for more? Do you get return flights annually or an equivalent dollar figure for them?

[Funk]

Heywa
expect 100K+ p.a. for 2 bedroom apartment without parking (add 20K for parking)
for an older 3 bedroom 110K+ more reallistically expect around 140K+ without parking if you can find one.
Villas start around 160K most now in the 180K+
Once you are in as a tennant the rent rises are capped at 7.5% p.a. by UAE law.
No to airfares, but the GCAA are working on an end of service benefit. I am with Serco and I am currently doing the maths re change over. My biggest concern is the accommodation(I am in a nice company 3 bedroom flat which costs me 75K p.a.), it might all be academic if Serco give up the contract at the end of 2008:}

[divingduck]

No housing – No utilities – No schooling – No airline tickets – “Government” medical – No death or disability benefit – No transport to and from work – No work clothes – No assistance with visa renewals / liquor license etc.


Actually where in the world do you get free accommodation?
Death and disability benefits, incorrect we do get them now.
Transport to and from work? If you live on the bus route you can come in on it, it is after all the GCAA bus route.
Work clothes?? why would you buy special clothes for work? are you allowed to work naked?
Assistance with visa...incorrect, they are done for us, at no cost. Passport? If your employer pays for that, good luck to you, but when I lived everywhere else in the world, I paid for my own passport renewal.

So with 2 kids I can expect, um, 40K x 13 = 520K a year……..WOW!!! That's a lot seems reasonable
520K – 160K (Decent 3 bed villa according to this thread!) = 380K pretty close to the mark
380K – 18K (Average utilities for a villa is 1 ½ K per month) = 362K
362K – 48K (Ball park figure for schooling of 2 kids) = 314Konly if you have kids
314K – 12K (Ave ticket cost for a family once per year) = 302K or 4K for singles
302K – 14K (Recent quote I got for life/disability insurance at 40+ yrs old) = 288K mine in Oz costs 55AUD per month
288K – 30K (Price of having to buy a second car with insurance and fuel to get to work ‘cos wife’s using the other one as mom’s taxi and driving a small saloon in these parts is insane so have to buy something bigger!!) = 258K.what, do you buy a new car every year??
258K – 2K (For work clothes - I know uniform sucks but it is free!!) = 256K. everyone else works naked:E
256K – 3K (Average annual cost for a small family to renew visas, passports, liquor license, etc, etc. ) = 253K. they pay for the visas, does your current employer pay for a liquor permit?
253K – 18K (Won’t even go into detail of the “government” medical but suffice it to say my family will be in one of the private hospitals should something serious be needed so I’ll have to fork out the extra for inpatient care too! How do you get treatment at a UAE Government hospital when you break your leg on the slopes at St. Moritz???) = 235K. GCAA has a deal for ATCOs about 2000 AED per year to get full private insurance.As for the St Moritz ski injuries, i take out travel insurance, but i am covered worldwide ont he GCAA scheme.
235K / 12 = GBP 33 000.00 (I’m being generous here) = GBP2750 or AED 19 000 of beer vouchers, food, entertaining the kids and keeping the missus happy 'cos I've dragged her across the world away from family and friends!!

Actually the Norwegian sitting next to me says that after paying for his villa and his 4K per month Porsche payment, he has 30,000 dirhams left per month.:( (He does wear clothes, but just not uniform ones)

You forgot the end of service benefit, which until now we didn't get.

[Fox3snapshot]

Apparently for Serco employees only, and only when they are on duty. I got told that quiet specifically when I resigned :ooh:

It almost made me want to stay on for the privilege of my free bus trip in my 38 DHS custom fit polyurethane uniform! Still, not availing myself of this unquestionable mode of luxury transport increased my probability of living another ten years significantly. Every trip was like living a scene from Grand Tarismo on the streets of L.A! :eek:

[Fox3snapshot]

:D :p

Glad to hear you know what I am talking about...spontaneous combustion was certainly an operational hazard when wearing said uniform!

[the Shue]

Could you supply a similar breakdown of your approx salary and expenses at your current position to see if that is a much rosier deal. I'm not defending the GCAA package, just want to compare apples with apples with what I'm presuming to be a reason for not going to Abu Dhabi.

(Of course approximate the numbers as not to divulge your location.)

Thanks

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I like Funk are still doing the figures, and so far I think it is a very good deal if you are not in decent Serco provided housing as I am. Like Funk, I get effectively about 4 thousand dirhams a month saving on my accomodation due to the apartment I am in having been rent capped for a while. If I cross over to the dark side, while I get about 5K more, I lose most of that in extra accomodation costs.

I think the uniform issue is a waste of breath as Serco spend about 23 fils buying the crappiest uniforms they can find. At least they have been environmentally friendly and found a way to recycle all those old shopping bags into clothes.

As far as the extra car goes I would put the figure per month at 1,000 dh's as while you have to buy a car, you don't buy a new car each year. You can get a new Hyundai runaround for about 600 dh's a month leaving about 400 dh's a month for running costs. As a second car that should suffice, unless you're a snob.

The medical is same same either way you go from what I hear, while the guaranteed annual increase of 3-5% from GCAA sure beats the hit and miss 2-2.5% increase that I have got from Serco for the last 5 years (2 years no increase given to me for a variety of reasons). The annual bonus plus the end of service benefit puts GCAA well ahead, until you consider the second most important issue after accomodation, that being the annual leave difference. Serco, 56 days (albeit with their fraudulent way of including rostered days off during holiday periods as annual leave) beats the pants of the 45 days with GCAA (same fraudulent way of calculating annual leave as Serco), even when you add the days off in lieu that you might get IF you work a public holiday.

Bottom line, too close to call and so will see what can be negotiated with both sides. Remember we are in the position of strength right now, so don't sell yourself and all the other guys in the centre short. Even if you are hellbent on crossing over, get the negatives in the package (annual leave discrepancy etc.) sorted out, as they need you more than you need them, so make them pay for the privelage of having you. If through negotiation you can raise the bar for yourself (eg. recognition and payment by GCAA for Deputy Supervisor duties, and OJTI duties), you will also be raising the bar for everyone else.:ok:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

As a snob (;)) maybe you should put in an early offer on a used corvette, I hear one will be going cheap shortly.

In my figures I have actually allowed 1,500 dh's a month for a second car and that would cover the payments and running costs on a second hand 4WD.

The bottom line right now is if you are not living in Serco provided accomodation you would be crazy not to make the jump across, as even with the extra money on a second car and extra towards upgrading the medical insurance (if in fact that is needed), you would still be way ahead of where you are now.

If on the other hand you are in decent Serco accomodation right now (not that there are many of us), the figures are pretty tight and it comes down to who you would prefer to work for.

I know a lot of the guys on the floor want to make the jump purely out of spite as they feel they were sold well short by Serco as full time shift working operational controllers when compared to Instructor positions who are paid more than a centre supervisor (:confused::confused:). I can understand that thinking but again my advice is don't sell yourself short and negotiate the best deal you can.

[the Shue]

Thanks JORS for jor reply.

And yes, a good stir once in a while does make for interesting discussion (not to mention some entertaining sagas as been the case with some of the older sandpit threads.)

ANSA is absolutely correct in his housing analysis. In fact that is really SERCO's only remaining grip on holding onto any ATCOs here. As well, SERCO's support office (which could be a separate thread in itself) does provide some useful services so you would have to attach some value to that.

(ie free pens & pencils for my kid's school supplies. :E)

[Fox3snapshot]

Pfffft :p hah! :D Nice one....

Most of the support office personnel were seconded to the more lucrative contracts up in Dubai and the Lockheed Martin contracts here in Abu Dhabi. We were left with the skeleton crew who then had to take on all the tasks associated with the UAE ACC contract.

Employ more staff to ensure the interests of the UAE contract were serviced...are you kidding! :*

[the Shue]

SERCO ATCOs have received letters outlining SERCO's plan of action in response to the GCAA pay hike.

Looks like SERCO is basically waiting to see how many ATCOs actually jump to the dark side and if the number is significant enough to take a healthy dip into SERCO's profit trough then, and only then, will SERCO respond with a response other than another delay tactic.

The letter appears to be an extremely weak attempt to call on SERCO ATCOs to stay with SERCO out of "loyalty". :hmm: In reality, the poorly drafted letter just helps reiterate the total disregard SERCO has towards it's ATCOs.

Reading between the lines it looks like there will be no pay raise to SERCO ATCOs and they are willing to gamble that not many ATCOs will jump to the dark side thus ensuring that SERCO profits will not take a big hit.

Of course SERCO morale will be lowered once again but since when has that ever been a consideration? :(

For people wishing to join the Abu Dhabi gang, previous threads may have outlined that the SERCO package was slightly better than the one offered by the GCAA. That has recently been changed and, at the moment, the GCAA offer is much better.

LET YOUR FEELINGS FLOW, EMBRACE THE DARK SIDE.

[the Shue]

Verc,

What you are saying is generically true except that SERCO does NOT pay whatever it takes to fill seats. Hence the reason the GCAA got into the ATCO hiring business. SERCO pays what they feel they can "afford" to pay then hope that it is enough. For the last couple of years it has not been enough, now the GCAA is hoping their new package will be enough, not only to retain staff, but to entice people here. (Even if it means just fishing people away from other Middle East contracts.)

[African Queen]

SERCO ATCOs have received letters outlining SERCO's plan of action in response to the GCAA pay hike.


It would appear yet again that, despite being part of the Abu Dhabi contract, Al Ain has been left out of the loop.What letters??
Can somebody post the contents here please

[prowler]

to; AFRICAN QUEEN


SERCO ATCOs have received letters outlining SERCO's plan of action in response to the GCAA pay hike.
"It would appear yet again that, despite being part of the Abu Dhabi contract, Al Ain has been left out of the loop.What letters??
Can somebody post the contents here please "

Well, lets say DUBAI is within SERCo's Contract, although a stone's throw away from ABU DHABI Contract, WE ALSO RECEIVED NOTHIN!!!:{

More DELAYING TACTICS:D:D

[African Queen]

Were just a bunch of MUSHROOMS

[the Shue]

African Queen, and all other non-ACC SERCO contracts for that matter, I think you may not have all the pieces to the latest scenerio.

At the ACC, some expat ATCOs are hired by SERCO while other expat ATCOs (doing the same job off course) are hired directly by the GCAA, this is a situation that I believe does not occur at other stations, with the exception of local controllers being hired directly. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

At the ACC, SERCO ATCO's HAD a better package than the GCAA expat controllers but that situation has been reversed now with the introduction of a new GCAA pay scheme that makes joining the GCAA a much better deal. (By a much better deal I mean if you are new or if you are currently NOT living in SERCO housing.)

In Al Ain, do you have the option of working for SERCO or the local airport authority? If so, then you are in a similar situation otherwise it is not a matter of SERCO forgetting about you but a matter of SERCO not caring about you.

By the way, the letter the rest of you did not receive more or less is a pathetic attempt by SERCO to call upon their employees' sense of loyalty. I would guess that SERCO felt that other units were not directly affected so there was point in embarrassing themselves in front of you fellows as well.

On the other hand, you may not have received a letter because paper costs money.:p

[TheFalcon]

Isn't it nice that while SERCO keeps on dragging its feet to actually take concrete measures it proudly announced to stop the mass exodus at Dubai, more ATCO's are resigning with each day that passes? Is SERCO actually waiting for the place to stop before it starts doing something I wonder :confused:

[bigmanatc]

There is a local guy working next to the AL Ain guys....and he gets double their salary.......not long now.....watch the resignations.....

[yakkity yak]

all,
interesting posts on prune lately re the new GCAA pay and direct hire. One would hope this will now set a higher pay and better T&C's and possibly other DCA's to look at direct hire alternatives (incl DXB, al ain and AUH airport).
If GCAA can pay 40K dhs per month, then obviously so can the others, especially DXB andnow Jebel Ali. There still needs to some assistance with housing though, to make it attractive.
The days of these stations being run by Serco or any other contractor company are basically over. The relevant DCA's do now have the ability to run direct hire, and/or use the GCAA's experience in this area to their advantage to cut out the middle man (ie serco) and do this themselves. similiar to when they took over the running of countries oiil industry.

Its a win win win situation if they do it. for the local DCA's etc they will have a way better chance to gain and keep more staff with little if any increase in real costs, win for the controllers as they will be paid decent money (and reason to stay) as to what they expect, and win for the aviation industry in general as the more happier ATC staff, the better the service provided more efficency and less delays therefore less costs to airline and passengers re time and money.

Its time to do this, lets hope enough of the local people in the know read these comments and sieze the moment.

It could also be time to split the twr/app contracts. have the GCAA run all the approach services for the twrs and the area service and why not have (in the case of DXB have Dnata or the local DCA run the twr contract only, and provide housing in conjunction with Emirates) and the other DCA's run only tower????:confused:
Or at have the GCAA do all the hiring for the DCA's and the DCA's pay the salaries.
Due to the lack of experienced and willing controllers to move to the desert, the salaries will only continue to rise in the future. Long overdue and one Serco cant control anymore, it is like defying gravity, can only be done for a limited time before market forces (nature) resume their influence. Also, age limitations should be removed to entice more mature and experienced controllers there.
Once the DCA's see that Serco is not keeping to their side of the bargain (eg staffing or lack of causing delays) it will change.
I am sure that the current state of affairs will change very quickly over the next couple of years. Watch this space.
I had a manager in Muscat telling me only 12 months ago that 3500 OMR and above would never ever be seen in the Gulf as this amount of salary would not be tolerated by government or employers?
well CS I am afraid to tell you it is happening NOW and will continue to increase now the gates are open.
over and out...cheers:rolleyes:

[prowler]

yakkity yak,

SPOT ON Mate!!!

Somthing SURE is GONNA Happen.. You wait and see!

Soon DCA will ALSO Take Over DUB.........:hmm:

Not ONLY are Ops ATCO's resigning, but ALSO Middle to TOP Management..... Our H of Tr is also leaving.....

Thats just the 1st, from 'them'....

Another 2 ATCOs resigned these last 2 weeks, apart from the next, in the Coming Weeks!!

DCA are ALSO personally phoning INDIVIDUAL ATCOs who have resigned, asking them WHY......AND.... offering them MORE n MORE n MORE than SERCO are actually paying........(Apart from the fact the $$ AMOUNT $$ SERCO make on EACH ATCO)..............

[Red Dragon]

Prowler,

Now now, steady on. No money has been offered by the DCA yet. They're just testing the water to see how much those who've resigned would stay for. :=

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

It has taken the Authorities a while to cotton on, but finally they realise they can pay guys substantially more than they are receiving from Serco and still save money. I mean you take the middle men out of the equation and both the ATCO and the Authority wins.

I have always been one of the only guys on here who has defended Serco, and said consistantly they would win the last contract when everyone else was saying they were gone. Well the fat lady is singing and unless Serco digs into their profit margin really really fast there will be a mass exodus across to GCAA. It (direct hire) won't suit everyone but it will suit enough guys that considering the extremely difficult ATCO recruitment situation at the moment, it will leave Serco high and dry with no way of filling their contract.

As I said, if Serco are so well placed to move and react to market forces, they better do just that and move quick cos the clock is ticking and every month guys just rated make huge amounts more than senior Serco guys the less likely it is that guys will stay loyal and avoid the temptation to cross over.

[Fox3snapshot]

ANSA...
"move and react to market forces" :D

In the Ozzy outback we use a cattle prod that has a substantial electric shock to move stubborn beasts.

Perhaps a cattle prod with an additional 5000 volts may get your Contract ManageR and the well oiled Serco machine of their hinds and look after their most important assets...:hmm:

[prowler]

Red Dragon

I stand to correct myself.....I'm sure you understood what I meant, but gramatically I 'put it' wrong.......

U're RIGHT Mate, they're testing the water.....

But remember as ANSA stated......

The Clock is TICKING........:mad::mad:

[yakkity yak]

prowler, red dragon et al

If it is fact that DXB DCA have been making some phone calls to those who have resigned, my question is what have the responses been.
This is the time to make it known to the local DCA, that if you want me this is what you will need to do for me. NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO SELL YOURSELVES SHORT FOR THOSE YOU LEAVE BEHIND OR WHO COME TO FILL YOUR SLOT

If this is the case that the DCA has made some calls, then you need to be telling them you want the same (at the very least) as the AUH GCAA guys [ie 40,000 per mth], health and life insurance, plus accommodation [or at the very least assistance with the payment of accommodation at least 60% of what decent accommodation costs, maybe they can do a deal with Emirates], trip home per year, gratuity of at least one months salary per year, a yearly bonus of at least one months salary (if you are a good boy/girl), and at least 49 calender days leave (7 weeks). If you are all telling them the same thing then at least they know what they have to fork out to make things happen.:D

My questions to prowler and red dragon and others on the spot in DXB is: when does the Serco contract come up for renewal again (I thought it expired in June 2007...has this been rolled over for antoher 2 year contract)and do you really think the local DCA will really start to do their own hiring in the next 6 to 12 months?:confused:
Also, how many is DXB short now, must be at least 20 plus?
recent info to hand shows that around 80 staff is the norm of which about 35% are locals and with the transfer to Jebel Ali in 2009 they will need around 120 staff..is this correct and if so how will Serco manage this and where will they get their staff from?
Have any DXB bods (with area ratings) applied to go back to AUH due to the better money?

I hate to say this, but the Serco will never pull out the cheque book, the company needs to make profit, they are not a charity, it is as simple as that. The current contract profit has been set in stone and they wont eat into too much of that profit, I can assure you. Paying the sort of money that is required is not going to make profit, in fact could quite easily turn into a loss and the managers resonsible for that would be knifed and lose thier bloody big bonus's. No they would probably just pull out and move on.:ugh:

The fact that they are making some form of enquiry is encouraging and most likely due by the success of the recent GCAA direct hires. Remember they have a blossoming tourism industry to protect now and they will pay to do that.

over and out.;);)

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Just as Dubai needs extra bodies for Jebel Ali, Area needs lots of extra guys for the transition to the new centre, and that is one of the driving forces behind GCAA deciding to go out and get ATCO's themselves. Rather than paying salaries that are on a par with international salaries,GCAA have realised that you have to pay a premium above what guys can get at home, to entice them to the sandpit.

And Yakity Yak, 49 days annual leave? No way, a minimum of what we are getting now with Serco, 56 calendar days and no less. And don't believe the spin that Serco puts on this whole thing like the old chestnut "well we don't make much profit on this contract". There is enough profit margin in the contract to pay 40,000 dhs per controller and still make a tidy profit, but the question is are Serco willing to take the hit and do that. Probably not which means at the end of September when time runs out there will be a lot of ATCO's off Sercos books and they will then have to take an even bigger hit.

[yakkity yak]

ANSA

yep, I am with you on the 56 days, but arent the GCAA guys currently only getting 45 days (or thereabouts) pa.

It seems to me that Serco just aren't up to the rapidly changing aviation environment and due to lack of scope in the company unable to change rapidly:: re technology, huge increase in traffic numbers and adjusting the contract conditions to suit what is now required in AUH and DXB primarily.

They need bodies fast and Serco cant get them, in fact they are losing them faster than they can replace them at both stations. This means they will be out of bodies and out of business before long.

The respective DCA's will have to act NOW or risk losing their place in the aviation world where they are experiencing breakneck growth in passenger and cargo traffic and the place everyone seems to want to fly. This is a risk the AUH & DXB governments are aware of and they will do something about it.

Over and out.

[Tin-Bullet]

yakkity yak, prowler, red dragon et al

Lets start with the off + Annual leave days = Total 56 Calendar Days WHICH INCLUDE OFF DAYS!......You will be lucky to have the chance ot take your LEAVE..Mind You!:}

SERCO contract comes up for renewal again AT THE END of 2008.... :ugh:
Do you guys really think SERCO would do anything? Afterall DXB DCA are not so stupid to have signed a Contract with SERCO in the begining of 2007 for two years (2), & now in the middle of 2007 SERCO go back to DXB DCA asking for more &.......DXB DCA will comply & give in to SERCO's greedy demands???:=
SERCO being a profitable company should dig in their own pockets FOR ONCE, & try & save this whole farse! ME Thinks NOT.....:yuk:

DXB WAS Short of approximately 20 ATCOs......Now 25'ish........By the End of the YEAR.....We WILL HAVE TO CLOSE SOME SECTORS & also Bye Bye Dual Rwy OPS if as 'anticipated' more Staff Resign!:D
TWR guys are ALSO working in their breaks to keep Dual Ops Running in Peak Times.....:{

Besides DXB..Now in the Near Future Dubai World Central - Biggest Airport in the World....... = Staff??? What STAFF?:p
DXB is already understaffed, how can SERCO get DWC / Jebel Ali Airport Contract.....?????:hmm:

"The fact that they are making some form of enquiry is encouraging and most likely due by the success of the recent GCAA direct hires. Remember they have a blossoming tourism industry to protect now and they will pay to do that" - I bear with you on this.. but WILL ONLY KEEP My Fingers Crossed.......:*

[TheFalcon]

The Guys contacted by DCA have so far as I know been given an moderate increase but have refused asking for much more. When thinking about what we need here we must consider at least the following facts:

1) We are here for better living conditions which allow us to be better off than our home country (meaning better housing better standard of living etc).
2) Enough money to live comfortably and have that bit more to spend. This means the ability to send your children to decent schools and no need to skimp if you want to enjoy life a bit more.
3) Paid for transportation back home: most of us go back to our home countries more than once a year and for most people it helps us feel closer to home and makes living here so much easier.
4) Pension: for the older guys here remember that you must be saving something for retirement. Older Serco employees had a pension fund and can look forward to their retirement. This is not so now and part of your earnings should be going into some sort of fund and should be considered when making claims.
5) Perks: I know that EK employees benfit from all sort of reductions and exclusive memberships to hotels, restaurants etc. Small thing I know buy why shouldn't we have something similar?
6) Revision of conditons: with soaring increases in prices here we need to make sure that contracts are reviewed at least every two years if not yearly to account for inflation.

One last note: it is very easy to write all this down in a forum. I think the best way to move forward is to unite in some form of association which while not being an industrial union it can legally make sure that all controllers are treated fair and square. Just imagine if some of the guys start getting different contracts for doing the same job. Now that would be the final nail in the coffin not only for Serco but for ATC here!!:uhoh:

[BlueSkye]

Unless someone resigns and go to GCAA, Serco will do nothing. If you look at it from their perspective it makes sense not to do anything. It actually makes sense from any perspective. Why pay them to stay if nobody's leaving?

And herein lies the rub. The price of a Serco flat is unobtainable anywhere on your own. Stay in Serco accomodation on their salary and you earn X (take home). Move to GCAA, get more trading beans plus your own palace and maybe take home X minus 2000. If you are already out of Serco accomodation, this whole saga is a no-brainer. As much as it pains me to say it, but Serco is actually in a rather strong position.

If it was me sitting in the support office doing nothing, I would continue to do exactly that, nothing.

[Canoehead]

Serco's gonna have to do something big or lose the contract, at least in DXB. Bottom line is the new airport. There is so much money going into its development that it will indeed open. The pride of the Emirates Aviation Group and local tourism depends on this. Anyone looking in from the outside will understand very quickly that this requires many, many more bodies. And the only way to attract worker bees is with serious money, er honey.

[GELOFAB]

hi all,
how much is the money you can get in middle east when converted into euros?

thank you
Angelo

[atcpino]

Not much! I applied for a job in Dubai, and realized that it would cost me money!

( you get +/- 70.000 euro anual)

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Area Centre direct hire with GCAA the salary is 480,000 dh's per year tax free (96,000 Euro), plus 1 month salary per year gratuity, plus minimum one month bonus payment per year, plus 3-5 % annual increase per year for the next 5 years.

[African Queen]

f it was me sitting in the support office doing nothing, I would continue to do exactly that, nothing.


Sounds like you are interviewing for a Serco managerial position :)

[BlueSkye]

Sounds like you are interviewing for a Serco managerial position


Uh, no but one has to think about the reality of the whole thing. There is more at play here than just ATC sentiments. Because we are such egosentric bastards we never take the opposite point of view into consideration or appreciate the bussiness angle. Reading a book now called "Beach Babylon" and my eyes went open as to what happens behind the scenes. Same stuff taking place at Serco. The Dubai scenario is different though, they are heamorrhaging people like a gunshot victim.

I might be interviewing for Beelzebub's Barrister though.:E

[Tin-Bullet]

Canoehead

"Serco's gonna have to do something big or lose the contract, at least in DXB. Bottom line is the new airport. There is so much money going into its development that it will indeed open. The pride of the Emirates Aviation Group and local tourism depends on this. Anyone looking in from the outside will understand very quickly that this requires many, many more bodies. And the only way to attract worker bees is with serious money, er honey".

These last years, it has been mentioned that SOON SERCO will lose their Contract, & be taken over by a New Local Company formed by DCA ATC Personnel together with the remaining ATCOs here...

Then BYE BYE Greedy SERCO!!!

All SERCO are interested in, is SURELY THE PROFIT they make on EACH & EVERY ATCO!.......

Besides this, it is a known fact that the Dubai Contract is way tooo expensive, & therefore can hardly be AFFORDED by these GREEDY Buffs.......

Even though DCA have been testing the water & asking what those who have resigned are expecting to think about staying,,,, somthing surely IS GONNA HAPPEN!!

Now be it SERCO or DCA or whoever,,,,,,,,but SURELY POSSIBLY NOT SERCO!:=

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Sorry gotta disagree with a few of you on this one. 40,000 dh's a month plus gratuity, plus bonus, plus the 120k rental allowance but only 108k salary deduction, makes the salary over 100,000 Euros. People say "But what about the high costs of rent!!". You live in a box back in Oslo, or London do you? No you either pay rent or pay a mortgage. Good thing about being here is someone else pays your mortgage while you either rent or buy here.

It converts into 160,000 Aussie plus depending on the exchange rate. Tax free that is extremely favourable to what is on offer in Oz and blows away anything on offer in NZ.

As far as crossing over to GCAA of Serco staff. It will happen and it will happen in a flood. Things are just being put in place now. If Serco don't act soon they will be out in the cold. Tick Tock.

[Neptune262]

Nobody has mentioned that the cost of living in the UAE is cheap in many ways. When was the last time you could buy a can of Pepsi for 0.20€? Or pay about 4€ for a good plate of food - even in a restaurant?

Rent is expensive - that is what everyone fights to have covered in their contracts.
Alcohol - if you drink - is same as in western Europe - so expensive!
Cigarettes - if you smoke - are very cheap at 6€ per 200!
Cars are cheaper than in Europe.
Petrol is much cheaper than in Europe - about 20% of the price!

So basically you spend less in the UAE than you do back home. Which means that even if you don't earn quite the same, you end up with more in the bank at the end of the month than you would have otherwise!

Now if you have many bills to pay back in your home country, then yes the exchange rate pinned to the US Dollar doesn't help right now. But if you are relatively debt free then you will have enough coppers to enjoy a decent lifestyle!!

Then there is the weather - everyone else pays to come to the UAE on holiday - and you have it outside your back door, every day!!

Money isn't everything unless you put in all the details of what your life actually costs you.

Just my 0.02€ worth.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Just to clarify Vercing the gratuity and the bonus is a contracted minimum of one month for each per year. So it is now a promise not a whim. To be honest we have never relied on Europeans to staff the Centre anyway, it has always been Antipodeans and Yarpees, and the odd Canuck, and so this should be very attractive to those nationalities. To be honest though, the longer we are struggling for staff here the more upward pressure there is on salaries so maybe people not coming here is a good thing.:cool:

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

Seems like I recieved a call from DCA yesterday, but having too much fun in the land of Tulips!!!

If I do have the opportunity to speak to them, I will be letting them know that a Good salary to keep the guys who left or are leaving would be in the 70k dhs per month range. Seriously, that is the type of monthly salaray I think that would get people to perk up and take notice of the ME again. 40 a month plus rent and stuff?? Not enuf... I think if they wanted a lot of singles who could show up in the AUH and DXB quickly, give 'em 70 k a month, and heath care (cause I wouldn't have a clue or the patience how to set it up) let them sort out the housing on their own.

Best of luck guys, hope y'all get every last dhs you're asking for, you deserve it, even you boys at AUH center! :)

Yup 70k a month would definitely get some people who are abroad on a flight back!

[Funk]

its not 40K + plus rent, its 40k only per month.
At the moment on I'm 34K per month with subsidised rent. Serco provide me with 3 bedroom apartment 75K pa, market rates would have me paying between 120-150K pa.
I figure 1 overtime per month puts me pretty close to the GCAA guys, given also that they are on 45 days annual leave and I get 56 days with Serco.
Unfortunately I cannot see Serco moving too quick to improve this package in the near future.:{
Think long and hard chaps if you're coming here for the money.

[the Shue]

There are a few issues concerning the amount of the GCAA salary. Two of the bigger ones are a) Is it big enough to attract ATCOs from abroad and b) Is it enticing enough to draw SERCO ATCOs to the Dark Side.

The first part is much more complex as each foreign ATCO has a very different stack of apples and oranges to compare.

The latter is starting to become more clear as, rumor has it, there are 6 SERCO ATCOs that will switch to the Dark Side in mid-September if SERCO stands put on its present package or, and most likely, announce another delay tactic.

ANSA is correct, the clock is ticking. Either SERCO makes a decision, or the decision will be made for them.

[divingduck]

70K...that'd do for a while, like I said on the opening post, 40K is a good start!:ok:

The crunch will come when they (whoever they are) try to staff Jebel Ali or of course when Dubai try to go to 30 miles in trail again...we in the UAE won't have enough staff to man all the positions and the planner spots without busting hours. But that really is the start of another thread:E

[prowler]

futr-kofeshop-dweler for president!

Seems like I recieved a call from DCA yesterday, but having too much fun in the land of Tulips!!!

If I do have the opportunity to speak to them, I will be letting them know that a Good salary to keep the guys who left or are leaving would be in the 70k dhs per month range. Seriously, that is the type of monthly salaray I think that would get people to perk up and take notice of the ME again. 40 a month plus rent and stuff?? Not enuf... I think if they wanted a lot of singles who could show up in the AUH and DXB quickly, give 'em 70 k a month, and heath care (cause I wouldn't have a clue or the patience how to set it up) let them sort out the housing on their own.

Best of luck guys, hope y'all get every last dhs you're asking for, you deserve it, even you boys at AUH center! :)

Yup 70k a month would definitely get some people who are abroad on a flight back!

Thats 'my' boy.....TT-Boy...wud 'av helped u ship yr 'CaR' Over to the 'New-Found-Land'.....:D:ok::D

Jebel-Ali will be the Day!!!................

SERCO's days are Numbered......'Tick-Tock-Tick-Tock':suspect:

[divingduck]

:}Antipodeans and Yarpees, and the odd Canuck

tee hee...do you mean a Canuck every now and then or do you mean that the Canuck that we have is...well, odd, strange perhaps, definitely not normal?:p

[BlueSkye]

Surely there are people on here who have a husband/wife/lover who earn a little bit for the pot. If, for the sake of argument, you would add the two salaries together then the ME is not a bad place to earn a fair bit. Granted not everybody is married and others have kids X 2/3/4, but still.

It also depends on where your debt lies. If in EUR/GBP then maybe not so rosy. If in AUD/USD/ZAR then I think you can make a killing with a bit of financial dicipline. In ZWD you can buy a small African country :E.

[the Shue]

Only one Canuck is used to "staff the Centre", the Duck is correct.:rolleyes:

[divingduck]

Le canard qui plonger est toujours vrai!

The Duck is wise, the Duck is good.....you wish you were the Duck!:cool:

Come across to the Duck side....:E

[2 Dogs]

When HK wanted people they did what was necessary and paid well above the then going rates to sort out their staffing problem.I think you will find that HK did no such thing. The expats who went to Hong Kong were payed the going civil service ATC salary at the time. The fact that it was much more than was being paid by anybody else merely reflected the cost of having to relocate and live in Hong Kong.
They did get a few extras over and above those given to "local" controllers tho - a different accommodation allowance and airfares back home.
Since being recruited the HK expats have suffered several pay cuts and their accom allowance has been reduced to LESS THAN HALF what it originally was!

I have to say that Hong Kong is a better place to live than the sandpit.That is definitely a matter of opinion.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I have to say that having seen how the guys live in Hong Kong ie. what you get for your money accomodation wise, and the cost of going out, the sandpit is a pretty good option. Honestly living in Abu Dhabi gets easier every year, and really is a pretty good lifestyle. Yes it would be nice to live in a villa and have a back yard but when you weigh all things up its still pretty good.

I think if you look at the cost of living in Hong Kong versus the salaries in comparison to the cost of the living in Abu Dhabi versus the salary, the deal here is pretty good.

But hey each to their own opinion. The proof will be down to whether or not they can attract guys here and that remains to be seen.

[the Shue]

If Hong Kong even thinks of hiring new expats they get 100 CVs the next day, definitely not the case in the UAE. I think that speaks volumes.

It's up to the GCAA to turn Abu Dhabi's image into a desired destination like Hong Kong.

The new package is a step in the right direction but not the final answer.

[atcpino]

*edit* this is a reply for bluesky, somehow I couldn't qoute

Fair enough, but imagine my position : married and we have a child who is 2 years old now. My parents are baby sitting 3 days here as my wife works too. I don't think I would trust a stranger to babysit, so that means that my wife has to stop working if I would go to DBX.
My income : 110k euros before tax
wife's income : 45K euros before tax
total : 155K euro

Moving to dubai:
Only my income : can't remember the exact figure (230K dhm + extras)

hmmmm
think I wil stay where I am now.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Dear atcpino,
Now is obvious why you are not profesor of maths ( me also). At first be honest and say what remain in your pocket after tax and similar givings in Holland. I bet that at least half of your sum goes to pocket of your kingdom.
Second, upon information at pprune you should multiply 34000( at least) Dhms with 12 and it is 410000dhs which +/-100000Eur net + other bonuses.
The third overall cost of living is less there than in your country.
With normal life you will have at the end of contract at least 300 000 Eur somewhere in Swiss bank. It means that you will receive every year around 10000 eur for keeping money in the bank. Those 10000 eur could give you an oportunity to choose one of 140 countries all around the world and move there for life without work. Remember half of planet population live with 2 $ daily or less.

[atcpino]

I am sorry, but I am talking about dubai app. The salary is no way 410.000dhm. If it was I would have done it.
they offered me something like 235.000 + allowances.

[throw a dyce]

Hongkong paid a very good gratuity after each 3 year contract.25% but I believe it's now 15% although they are not hiring expats currently.It was basically the pension returned after 3 years.
The ME has always been VERY light as far as pension/gratuity goes.I think Serco are going to find it more difficult to recruit expats in this day.There are less ''Travelling Atcos'' around,and less people really needing a job;ie Ronnie's rejects.
Atco's are looking at the overall deal nowadays and pension is a major factor.Also pprune didn't exist to warn people about the pitfalls and benefits in the 80's and early 90's.I agree with 2 dogs about HK.They paid the going rate according to the Civil service price index for the year previously.This is what Dubai is getting now with the huge expansion.Serco cannot offer 30% pa to keep pace with inflation.Atco's will leave for whatever reason,and it's difficult to replace them.Isn't it Mr Melvin?:E
ANSA,
Do you have a Wanchai in the sandpit??

[prowler]

to Atcpino;

I am sorry, but I am talking about dubai app. The salary is no way 410.000dhm. If it was I would have done it.
they offered me something like 235.000 + allowances.


You are CORRECT mate, thats what it's all about.....:ugh:

You've gotta add Allowances Starting from the 'meagre' Accomodation AED145,000 (after present contract expires)married with kids (obviously for non married Much LESS), from which you will be VERY LUCKY to find a decent place around Dubai, UNLESS you want to fork out some more from your pocket!!

Then we got ATC Allowance AED30,000, & some so called allowances like Transport allowances which are NOT ENOUGH, since Salik (road toll) been introduced.....Imagine driving up to Dubai from the South through SZR & back that's 4 CHARGES!!.....Unless you opt for back road miser's queue, or else you are 'sharing' The-Bullet....

W&E Allowance which is cheap here...luckily.....:hmm:

Schooling allowance for ONLY 2 Kids, so if you got more,,, then More Money out of YOUR OWN Pocket!!!

One thing we have to consider is the Medical Insurance, which the Company pays for, which is good, having only to pay 10% of the fees....Which of course could be BETTER, as much as Emirates Pilots, who have a 100% Medical Scheme, which ALSO includes Dental Cover...(apart form their Pilot's Club - perks etc etc....)

As a whole pack it's not bad, BUT STILL NOT SO GOOD to KEEP STAFF FROM LEAVING.....or TO ATTRACT NEWCOMERS!!:=:=:=

It is true we chose to come, but then due to the HIGH INFLATION, then you really think if it's worth staying or getting out of here ASAP, unless REAL MEASURES are taken!!!

And, if you think you could just resign there & then.......:*:*:*..You gotta have to pay a 'FINE'...Yes a 'FINE'....to cover the costs bla bla bla......:yuk:

So after being promised a load of BS, you come here & then discover it's not all rosy, like the 56 days off....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:......which of course you'd be Lucky to take your LEAVE, then at the end of the day you'd say, was it worth coming here AWAY FROM HOME!!

Remember there is NO GRATUITY or Pension Scheme's for us.....the OLD SERCO guys have had a good scheme, but now SORAS...if you chose to be in it... who knows??:*:suspect:

This is what SERCO & or DCA have to UNDERSTAND, that we are all AWAY FROM HOME, so not ONLY has the whole package to be good, but it MUST BE MUCH MUCH BETTER to attract people here, & MOST OF ALL TO RETAIN PEOPLE Here & STOP THEM FROM LEAVING,,, & not introduce somthing as a DIS-INCENTIVE TO STAY!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

they offered me something like 235.000 + allowances.

Now it is obvious why they have ATCOs shortage! If they offered to Holland ATCO around 4000 EUR/montly something is wrong with them. It is not enough to attract Belarus proc ATCOs. Others are in better position.
P.S. Sorry mate for my previous post

[atcpino]

P.S. Sorry mate for my previous post

No probs mate, it was just funny because over here I am well known for my math skills.

[meinhk]

hey Throw a dice,sounds like you miss Wanchai and the Thai ''takeouts''. Not to mention all those beers your mates in D.B. bought you . Once a scotsman, pal, always a scotsman.

[bekolblockage]

:hmm:
Hmmmm. Two posts, Two flames.
Pull up a chair. This'll be good.
Plenty of beers from T.A.D. over the past 10 years. :ok:

[throw a dyce]

A Wanchai in the pit.Is it called Sandchai?
Meinhk,
Oh I have the odd twinge of nostalgia now and again.However the real world is far better even in the frozen north.Now better go and open my wallet and let all the moths escape.Got to play some golf now and pay £20 and not £150 in DB.See always a Scotsman! :ok:

[divingduck]

Dubai based rumour that Muscat was about to go for 4200 rials PLUS accommodation...scotched by on duty controller, but that would interest quite a number of guys/gals if it turns out true.:eek:

[heywa]

That would be nice! But not entirely true. UAE ACC package equates to around RO4200. Currently there are several different contracts here. 3500 including free accommodation (all the long standing expats), 3500 excluding accommodation, 3250 excluding accommodation, and 3000 excluding accom. This has become about due to a complete inability to manage staff and contracts alike. What we have asked for is an allowance to assist with the escalating cost of living here (housing is now of similar expense to UAE). With the recent increase in the UAE, DGCAM have finally woken up and realised that there is real concern for not only expats to be enticed away but also locals. So the current state of play is talks. Not that they seem to be happening with any great urgency. It has been mentioned that 4200 would reduce the likelihood of people leaving as it is on par with big brother up the road. But accommodation no way. They are too :mad: tight and short sighted for a region leading contract such as that. Imagine the staff that would come and sectors we could open in 6months after announcing a contract like that!! Unfortunately tomorrow is as far as these people have thought it through. Disappointing really, but I guess one must accept that that is the reality and mind set of the region. :ugh:

[yakkity yak]

well it looks like the bidding war is about to commence,
the DGCAM can only keep their head buried in the sand (no pun intended) for so long.
Look at AUH...Serco were paying crap money and reducing the contract bit by bit and were haemoraging (not sure about the spelling?) staff like no bodies business and still are and are unable to keep staff (hmmm same as dubai??) or get staff, so what happens GCAA decides to start hiring some of their own on a different basis, but more money at the end of the day. Now they can see they can actually do this themselves now and more will move to the dark side.
The same will happen in DXB in the near future, and when it does they will pull out their wallet and will match GCAA and include accommodation or some form of reasonable accommodation allowance, then things will get interesting.
This is why the DGCAM can only stall so long. The is a shortage of bodies and they WILL go to the place paying best money and one which leaves the most in their pocket. The DGCAM should also keep everybody on same contract so if money goes up so does everybody and that goes for accommodation either provide it or give an additional allowance. :ugh:
It seems that AUH area, DXB, MCT and Doha are all going to be moving to new facilities in the next 24 months and they will all be needing a shed load of staff for these ventures to happen especially if they are to happen smoothly and BAH is short due to salaries now being too low :D:D
time is not on their side now, they have to act quickly and put up their best shot.
The opening bid is 40000 aed per mth by the GCAA and you pay accommodation.
do we hear 45,000aed (or equivalent) plus paid accommodation?????:ok::ok:
It would not be unreasonable to expect upwards of 50K aed per month plus at least accommodation, gratuity and at least a 1 months bonus within the next 18 months. The ATC shortage is biting hard now, and western world ANSP's will be fighting hard to keep their control staff happy, well all except ASA & Airways, (eg Norweigans upping salaries and luring back their 8 or so from AUH) as they are all running short too. :p
So gents what is the latest on the serco end of month meeting???:confused:
and the DGCAM talks:confused:
over and out

[mhk77]

Just as a slight side step on the issue, what's happened to recruitment for Abu Dhabi and Dubai? For the last year at least, jobs have been advertised with Flight International on the website but now they've disappeared. A temporary hitch? Or no longer looking? Or are they just advertising elsewhere?

[yakkity yak]

people

suddenly gone very quite on this thread of late. On the assumption that Serco has had this big meeting at the end of August, then what is the goss and lo down on the meeting and how (if) serco intends to stay in the race:cool:

Personally, I think that the horse has already bolted and the barn door is shutting as we speak, just no sure how fast it is shutting. This may take up to 12 - 18 months to play out but will be interesting to say the least.
go ahead with any relevant info, we are all ears.:)
over and out:ok:

ps when are the 8 or so Norweigans at the UAE centre (AUH) heading back or planning to head back to Norway ?? :confused:

[Theflashingblade]

Hi all,
It beggars belief that a company (SERCO) could be so dumb as to let the opportunity of providing ATS to the worlds largest airport slip through their fingers due to narrow minded greed.
Frankly,as we already know, their ability to provide any cohesive leadership is at best to be found wanting.

Jack Nicholson, in the first Batman movie, had it right when he proclaimed the immortal phrase "This town needs an enema"!

We can can only hope that DCA can finally see through the smokescreen and mirrors act that SERCO have been pedalling for years and do the right thing. :ok:

Do we stay tuned for the next thrilling episode? Hmmmmm!

P.S Don't forget the spanner rattlers downstairs! :D

[Tin-Bullet]

Prowler;;

SPOT ON Mate!!!

Somthing SURE is GONNA Happen.. You wait and see!

Soon DCA will ALSO Take Over DUB.........:hmm:

Not ONLY are Ops ATCO's resigning, but ALSO Middle to TOP Management..... Our H of Tr is also leaving.....

Thats just the 1st, from 'them'....

Another 2 ATCOs resigned these last 2 weeks, apart from the next, in the Coming Weeks!!

DCA are ALSO personally phoning INDIVIDUAL ATCOs who have resigned, asking them WHY......AND.... offering them MORE n MORE n MORE than SERCO are actually paying........(Apart from the fact the $$ AMOUNT $$ SERCO make on EACH ATCO)..............

Bingo Mate, H of Tr was called by DUB DCA & as EXPECTED offered position!!! Similiar to the rest of resigning ATCOs, however this time more 'concrete' as an OFFER!!

SERCO????? still sleeping & snoozing? or is it you are resigning for your own 'demise'???????:O:O

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

I'll fail this next Dutch test of mine for 70k a month plus medical!!

(Will probably fail it anyways!)

[throw a dyce]

Maybe Serco should stick to trains,taffic lights,escorting prisoners and doing Nats computer system.Seem to be making a mess of ATC.:uhoh:

[heywa]

Oman management may well be in a league below Serco believe it or not. It would appear there are talks taking place but only from one side of the desk. The people who need to know there are problems, know nothing. Expect a mimi exodus from Oman over the coming 6 months as peoples contracts roll out.

[prowler]

futr-kofeshop-dweler (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=132717)

I'll fail this next Dutch test of mine for 70k a month plus medical!!

(Will probably fail it anyways!)

Just go to the Local Petshops......B-Dg & G-Hp.......I'm sure you'll do well & Fly High........;)

[yakkity yak]

tin-bullet

great news for sure. Are you able to give some basic details of the offer so that we can draw some of our own conclusions.

Also is the DCA looking to now commence its own expat hiring (similiar to what GCAA has done while Serco has still been providing the bulk of the service)?

please keep us advised we are all ears?

over and out:ok:

[Tweety]

me curious as well, with latest in dubai?

we are all ears:confused:

[Theflashingblade]

How about JANUARY?:ouch:
EBM's proclomation yesterday fortold of pay increase in January NOT before!
The old chestnut of 'market forces' was rolled out yet again (good grief this is so tiresome). Does this guy know which planet he's on?:ugh:

DCA still dithering with the idea of direct hire, but thats as far as it goes. It would appear that there's lots of palm greasing going on at a high level between the two parties, so don't get those hopes up too high.:{

Time for that one way ticket to reality methinks!:D

[prowler]

EBM's proclomation yesterday fortold of pay increase in January NOT before!


Same Stuff (CRAP) as last Year......:D

[the Shue]

Cheery, typically the guys that are bringing in the big dirhams don't work a lot of OTs. :hmm:

[V8supercar]

GCAA contract: 40,000 per month. Plus one extra month 40,000 so 13 pays per year. Plus gratuity extra month 40,000 (paid at end of contract) so in effect paid 14 months salary every 12 months? That's 560,000 per year. Plus 3-5% salary increase per year for the next 5 years? Is that annual increase based on the 40,000 or is that 40,000 broken down into a separate salary component?

Dividing that figure of 560,000 by ten as a worst case scenario into Rial, that's 56,000RO compared to 36,000RO annual salary.

Cost of housing in Muscat is about 75% that of AUH. I could rent in AUH for 200,000 per year and still have, in my pocket, what I earn total in Muscat. That makes the GCAA contract at least 15,000RO per year more worthwhile than the Oman contract.

Schooling costs in AUH are on a par with Muscat - for those with school kids.

So there you go, if I'm right with the GCAA figures, compared to what I'm on it's a much better contract. That's alot of money and when you convert to home currencies it hit's you in the face even more. It's not too hard to figure out what my next move is likely to be - reluctantly I might add. Moving is such a pain but working for peanuts rates a little higher.:sad:

[divingduck]

The figures are ok up to a point.
The bonus that we receive each year is based on the salary component of the package, currently 16,000 dirhams and change. I assume it is the same with the gratuity.
However, as has been said before, these numbers are guaranteed and the bonus is a minimum This year past we received 2 months "salary" in April.
As for saying that Muscat housing prices are 75% of Abu Dhabi:hmm: not sure about those numbers. Compare apples to apples. If you try getting a 5 bed villa near the waterfront in Ab Dab, it will set you back between 260 and 450,000 dirhams per year, payable in advance. I live in one of the cheapest places available...note that word, available...and it costs 155,000 per year.
School fees are marginally cheaper, but you have to be able to get your kid into school...wating lists everywhere here.
All that said, the GCAA contract is WAY better than being offered in Muscat, why do you think we are all here?:E
verci, cheery,yakkity, tweeter and pms et al, stop talking to yourselves:=

[yakkity yak]

just a touch off the thread, but is related to ME salaries


ASA have a new company, that is in the process of structuring a bid for their first ME contract, in Bahrain. :cool: It has been advertised on the ASA internal web...where the f:mad:k are they getting these staff from? as it is they are bloody shortstaffed in Oz :confused:

****e, if ASA's track record is anything to go by then look out if they get the contract from Serco. Could Jebel Ali be next.....anything is possible. Odds on they will attempt to underpay staff to make max profit.


BTW ANSA (tf) you can lose that chip that is so obvious on your shoulder that is so obvious.:mad::mad:

over and out

[Track Coastal]

...who needs TCU/TMA/APP R controllers out of Abu Dhabi, Dubai, and Bharain?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Everyone in the Gulf needs controllers. Even old ones, so Slip and Turn maybe you can apply, ahhhh thats right you're too old to train as one.:E

[yakkity yak]

according to rumour dubai are now offering 55,000 dhs per month...is this incl free accommodation, plus plus or no accommodation and nothing else?

is this with DCA (direct hire) or still with serco?

Looks like auh airport contract will need to up the ante now to stay in the race!:D

can anyone in dubai verify this as fact or is it really just that...a rumour?
:confused:

maybe things are now moving faster than we expected? await the reponses from you guys in dubai

over and out

[Theflashingblade]

Same old S:mad:!
All rumour with no substance!

[Red Dragon]

The 55,000 is still rumour at this stage. No offers been made yet, and also no details as to what it includes. Only Serco resignees have been approached and no encouragement for anyone else to approach the DCA.
Almost certainly all inclusive though, which in Dubai isn't enough given rent, schooling etc. As with any 'lump sum' it won't favour anyone with 2 or more kids.
Expecting announcement soon of the revised Serco package to retain and attract more controllers. Again no details as to how much.

RD

[CEP]

The DCA would have to fork out a lot more than 55K all inclusive to stem the tide!!

The announcement on what the new offer is was supposed to have been this week, now we hear that the offer will only be made known at the end of the month!:ugh:
What did apparently happen this week is that SERCO and the DCA came to an agreement, probably on ways to s:mad:ew us around some more!
And IF there is a raise, it will only be effective from next year.

So don't hold your breath for too long, the hands are still most likely firmly tied!:E

FKD, how're the nuns????;)

[mhk77]

Jesus guys, get a room :ugh::ugh::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Anyway, back to the thread.........I'm not sure if i've done my sums right, but 55,000dhms a month works out at just under £7.5k a month.....(I think...) Assuming that's tax free, that sounds pretty good to me......what are the catches?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

mhk77, I'm with you on this one. How anyone can say that 55,000 dh's all inclusive is not more than enough to stay has clearly lost touch with reality. We are talking about 18,000 Australian dollars a month tax free!! Okay rent is expensive and so is education. Has anyone looked lately at the rental costs in the UK, Europe or Australia? In saying that it would take more than 55,000 dh's a month to make me move from Abu Dhabi to Dubai, but thats just a personal hatred for living in a traffic snarled, up itself, building site. For me I'll take laid back Abu Dhabi anyday even if our malls are a little smaller, our hookers a little less glamourous and our buildings a little shorter.

[TheFalcon]

I think 55,000 is not much more than what the Dubai guys are getting at the moment so its not going to make a lot of people stay. Its useless to compare to what we got back home, WE ARE NOT HOME and that does not mean we are homesick here but that we expect to be paid for coming and save enough money to account for our retirement if we ever get there. If we wanted equal pay we WOULD have stayed home thank you very much. 55,000 is still way below what some controllers are getting in Europe and the U.S.A. especially when you know how much of it actually ends up in the pocket of your friendly greedy landlord. If someone from DCA or Serco thinks that is the magic touch to get people coming here well ... dream on.

BTW guys stop hurling insults at each other, its not what this forum is for. Why not get together and throw a few punches and get it over with. :ouch:

[Red Dragon]

Vercing, Therat, Jonny Cash etc.....take your petty little squabble elsewhere. This isn't what this forum is for. Take it up in Expatwomen.com

mhk77,

The catches are what has to come out of that lump sum. The Serco pay plus benefits means that rent, schooling, medical, flghts home, travel etc are add ons. With a lump sum you are responsible for paying them and keeping up with increases in each.
As a guide:
Rent in Dubai will cost you around 2000GBP a month
Schooling - 2000-3000GBP per term per child.
Medical - don't know but figure on around 1000GBP per year for a family of four.
Utilities - around 2500GBP per year.
Plus flights home and travel expenses.
So as you can see, anyone with 2 or more kids is left with between 3500 - 4000 per month. And remember its expensive to live here. Sure, single guys will be better off, but historically don't stay as long as those with kids.
Is it really worth uprooting from home and possibly leaving a lucrative pension scheme for that? Those at near top of scale at a band 5 unit in UK would be making around the same money after tax.

[therat]

I didn't come to the Gulf to make similar $ I can get back home. ( The English might want to swop Sunshine for half-pay , but not me ! )

I came out here to make MONEY !

AD is still surviving, for the moment, Dubai is getting close to sink or swim and Bahrain is fast becoming the Middle East's first MIDAIR waiting to happen .
Dh 55 000 a month ? - latest Serco offer I heard is +_ DH 42 000.00 - All in!

Fasten your seatbelts !

Verci - incorrect

Maximus:}

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Ok us humble people down in Abu Dhabi I guess are used to living in apartments now so based on living in a 3 bedroom apartment and sending them to a good (but not most expensive western school) and paying utilities for a 3 bedroom apartment, you are looking at even in Dubai,

Rent - 120,000 dh's a year (I am talking DH's cos we are in the UAE not the mother country)
Schooling - for 2 kids 100,000 dh's a year.
Utilities - 3,000 dh's a year (plus another 3,000 dh's to cover phone calls (a lot less if you are smart enough to use a VOIP phone)
flights home for the family even all the way to Australia - 16,000 dh's (less to the UK)
Medical insurance - free provided as per the federal law to all employees by employer (but if you insist on topping this up to a higher level of coverage then I have heard you are looking at a further 10,000 dh's a year).
Travel expenses - other than flights I don't count that as a UAE specific expense cos surely you had holidays when back home as well.

Bottom line is 55,000 a month is 660,000 dh's a year.
Total expenses of 252,000 dh's a year.
That leaves 408,000 dh's a year in your hand to buy food, beer and toys with.
That is 34,000 dh's a month or 11,000 AUDs to the tall, tanned, strong amongst us, 4,500 GBPs to the pale, sickly, bad toothed amongst us, 6,600 EURs to the naked, dope smokers amongst us and 13,000 NZDs for the ....well those that have these in their bedroom

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/unbranded/i/unbranded-inflatable-sheep.jpg

[therat]

Come down to earth mate - theres gonna be no DH 55000 package - trust me!

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Thats interesting you say that Rat, since that is what my spies in Dubai tell me has been offered to at least 2 want-aways. I guess we will see.

I seem to remember you were one telling me I was a crawler for saying Serco would win the last contract (They won it). I was also called dellusional for thinking 33,000 dh's would be offered to all Serco Controllers in the UAE ACC (We got it).

I honestly believe that the ATCO salaries are in the midst of a big upward curve at the moment, all due to the huge shortage that has developed in the Gulf for controllers coupled with the huge increase in traffic. The ANS providers here are finding it more and more difficult to put bumbs on seats and the Sheikhs aren't going to let their shiny new A380's sit parked, or their big new airport sit unused due to a few million dirhams that wasn't spent on enticing controllers to stay and new controllers to come.

It is a good time to be a controller here in the UAE and if you can ride out the bumps, I really think we are in a strong position to demand much higher salaries.

[DTLP]

can you guys not use skype in the UAE to make your calls?? By the way, the bonus pay in Abu Dhabi, is that a full months including allowances, or is it on base pay only??

[yakkity yak]

2moocows
I still have 9 pages but yes there have been some posts deleted. I also read about the BAH situation with the 4 locals resigning in the last 60 days and another 6 locals probably about to pull the plug.....

also note that ASA is currently putting together a bid for the BAH contract...so you better hope they do not get it or the pay will be really ****, :mad::mad:

In a nutshell the ****e is about to hit the fan over the next 3-6 months in the middle east; (Muscat, AUH area and airport, DXB, shj and BAH and possibly even Doha)...as they will all be bidding for a very small group of possible controllers who will be willing to move there and put up with all of the bullsh#t with living there. As said before they all will probably need over 200 plus controllers just to fill existing and future requirements, let alone replacing future departures:ugh:

the time for them is to act NOW...the highest bidder will win the best controllers:ok:

over and out

[Two Moocows]

Thanks. I figured out why I only have 5 pages. When logged in, my preferences are set to display 40 messages per page, but when I'm a guest, there are less per page.

I understand what you're saying about the problems with numbers of controllers and associated pay issues. We just have to hope that the airlines put enough pressure on the Govt's to increase the numbers. Then they may recognise the need to pay more.

There certainly are interesting times afoot.

;)

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

As Rod Stewarts ex Kiwi scrag wife used to say in a shampoo ad, "It won't heppen overnight but it weel heppen".

This part of the world as we all know is extremely unpredictable but I am pretty sure that we will be seeing that kind of money at least, very very soon. Bahrain is getting desperate for staff, Dubai is already desperate, UAE Centre is short and will be critically short in the next 6 months with lots of Scandihooligans about to leave, Muscat is getting staffed up but the guys arriving there are realising they are being underpaid by Gulf standards now, and does Qatar have any controllers anymore (they certainly don't answer their line these days). It all points to a big investment in ATCO recruitment, and since all the 3rd world controller experiments have failed it leaves us Western Expats in a very very very good position.

[thunderfromdownunder]

Question for you guys in Dubai. Does anyone know if DCA has made any offers for direct hire. Also, are they targeting only the current Dubai controllers who have resigned or in process of resigning. Wondering if the DCA would be interested in talking to ex Dubai controllers who have left within the last 18 months or so. If so, any contact details for sending email.

Cheers Thunder.

[Aus ATC]

Can anyone advise what should I be seeking from my illustrious employer if the BAH bid comes off? The package they are proposing (without numbers):
- An Annualised base salary
- End of Contract payment
- Monthly housing allowance (for furnished accommodation) inclusive of utility costs.
(Time in Lieu - no overtime for additional shifts)
- economy airfares home each year.
- health and medical international insurance cover.
- Contribution to educational costs in BAH (can be used for boarding in AUS).

In particular:
What are the housing costs for a 3-4 brm home in a decent area?
How much is my kids education going to cost? (2 kids, 1 primary, 1 secondary)?
How much to buy/run a car or 2?
General cost of living compared to AUS?

Thanks,
Aus ATC

[Aus ATC]

123777,
Thanks, (back at page 9)

It's the housing and school allowances that need to go a good way to covering the costs. If Air Services Australia wins this contract, I would only take the job if it was seriously worth my while. Sounds like the current gig isn't as good as other locations in the sandpit. But can it get better?

Aus ATC

[clipped_wings]

It is a crying shame that the original thread remains blocked for such a long time. Hidden in between the mud throwing there were a few pearls of wisdom that some of us found worthwhile keeping up with.
My question is could someone please provide us mere mortals an update on the Dubai DCA direct hiring and the salaries being offered.
My sources indicate that Dubai DCA has pulled back from direct hire and negotiating a new deal with SERCO.

[BlueSkye]

Serco have yet to come back with an offer to their chaps and at the moment pay 33000 monthly + gratuity (under UAE labour law the gratuity is good after 3 yrs and better after 5 yrs). + a savings/pension plan called SORAS (A good scheme).



Serco has now matched the GCAAs package effective 2008/01/01.

[Fox3snapshot]

Regarding the figures, firstly we don't have any GCAA Deputy Supes or Expatriate full time supes so there is no advertised pay rate for that slot.

Only the Nationals get OJTI allowance with GCAA, not the expatriates.

With respect the overall package, the only thing officially mentioned in our new contract (received only a few days ago) is the actual Salary breakdown and the entitlement to a Gratuity in accordance with the government legislation. Nothing officially stated regarding the 3-5% or annual bonus.

We still only get the 45 days leave too which falls short of the Serco 56, and our medical cover is only for UAE.

With the new Serco package as of Jan, it’s a much of a muchness between the two. :cool:

[Fox3snapshot]

Serco still gotta wear that polyurethane uniform and ride the daily bus of death.....nah, will stick it out with GC slAve slAve......! :E

[danceswithsheep]

I read, I laugh but as someone said, there certainly are a few pearls in here! We are 2 days away from a BAH meeting to tell us the probable outcome for the contract....keep watching !!!!!!!!!
There seems to be two types of person here in the thread.........ANSA Ver Duck, keep up the good work, When I know more I'll add but not one for conjecture........Rat and those of your type, go find a thread that suits your abilities, not one that can be of use not only to us sandpitters but to those genuinely looking for a change/place to run away too/ top up a tan.

Whoever runs these contracts will have to make improvements and I think ANSA has it right, roll with it and see what pans out. The recent meeting with Emirates in Dubai highlighted the problems and a black and white answer is, pay the correct figure and more, good staff will appear. We all know these wheels take a while to move but when they do they come from high up.
Keep smiling and listen.........BAH is not a Mid Air waiting to happen..........No incidence for 2 months.:D.......BAH.Safest Airspace in the World(probably).
Sheep out. for now

[ShooTheGap]

It is not what you wear that determines your salary. The 40K is not enough. Meets inflation and currency depreciation figures only.Look at the canadian dollar aprreciating 16 percent in one month! to surpass parity with US. Same with all other currencies.
To those that are here, we all need to make more money to stay. But to attract the numbers required in the next 3 years, They will need a HK type of offer where the applications are 10fold the required bodies.
It will not be a Serco contract. This is only my opinion, I have no information that would make it anything but a rumour.!Sorry

[Quokka]

I have to agree about Canada. Booming minerals & energy economy and a lack of a Trade Deficit. With the US economy heading the other way, and, it'll be heading that way for a long time... the Canadian dollar is on a rocket-ride to gold. What the ME has for the Antipodeans, which Canada doesn't, is the tax status. For the investment punters out there who aren't in a hurry to head back home, it's still worth digging your castle in the sand pit for some time to come. For those who prefer the security that comes with a salary-based family income and stability. Make this year's family holiday a trip to Canada... and don't forget to pack your CV.

[NiceVectoring]

Ok, someone brief me in on this one, please. So DXB got a payrise to 480k/annum!? What was the previous salary and how is the pay divided?

[heywa]

Any news from Bahrain yet??

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

NiceVectoring and Heywa, I don't know what Dubai got or Bahrain got, but in the UAE ACC we have got 480,000 dh's a year, plus private medical coverage and company contributions into savings scheme are paid for.

Some people still not happy and saying it should be more. I am very happy and it looks like the dark side will have to wait. I for one would like to thank Serco for dipping into their own pocket to make up the difference. Well done:ok:

[Funk]

ANSA I doubt Serco did it out of the goodness of their heart and the timing of the payrise is quite cynical.
Having said that with my company flat, 56 days leave & 40K/month package is looking pretty good for 2008.

However if things go pear shaped for Serco come 2009 (new contract) and I have to go over to the 'dark side', 2009 & 2010 aren't looking that rosey.
Inflation last year 9.6%, UBS are forecasting around 14% for 2007, school fees to rise 15+% this year and the Ozzie dollar has appreciated over 20% since Dec 2005. 40K is not going to be enough for a small family like mine.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I agree Funk that if the dollar keeps going the way it is and inflation in the UAE persists, then the rises will have to keep on coming. One thing I have learnt here though is not to look too far ahead. Things are constantly changing and they will continue to change. The payrises that have happened in the last 18 months to 2 years are just the start and as the shortage for controllers bites even harder (and it will) the need for even more lofty salaries will win through.

As I have said before if you are willing to stick it out, and ride the ups and downs, there is some good money to be made here in the sandpit.

Also Funk I know the rise wasn't out of the kindness of their hearts and was out of necessity but still it was a smart thing to do and something that they have found hard to stomach doing in the past. For that I was saying well done.

[Quokka]

...and there is always the possibility that the remaining AGCC countries will relinquish their peg to the USD. More speculation and discussion on CNBC yesterday about ME countries unpegging. It's not impossible that it could happen, and with the current economic expansion in the region, consider what the value of that 40,000 might become if ever the peg was removed...

[Fox3snapshot]

Hmmmm....the peg!

Don't forget though me ol mucker, the Middle East stands to loose a squillion too as its in there favor for defense purchases and development to have a limp USD.

We as employees are the baby players, its costing the middle east nothing to have a crappy exchange rate...in fact the ME governments are winning! :sad:

Remember also we import 90% of our 'important' stuff, from the US and similar!

Friendly bet....we will not officially (GCC) de-peg! Lets put 5 rats on it....pre de-peg rates I might add! :E

You know where I live Quokkles, leave the money on the fridge!

:ok:

[Quokka]

I don't know if I can handle another 48 hour hangover!! :\

...it was a long drive home :{

[divingduck]

I don't know if I can handle another 48 hour hangover!!

heh heh heh lightweight!:E

[Quokka]

Never again... never... :E

[thunderfromdownunder]

So what is happening in Dubai. I thought there was going to be announcement at the end of last month. Can someone please give EBM a hand with the knots, whe all know his hands were tied, or buy him pair of trousers with shorter pockets.

[bigmanatc]

So whats the story now...? Did anyone actually get an increase....? I certainly did not...!!!

[African Queen]

Well, all the rumours floating round about a "big surprise" in the October pay packet certainly turned out to be accurate......


...... I am sure plenty of people were surprised when they got "SWEET F A" extra in their pay.

latest rumour -

SERCo have called off the planned/negotiated/approved pay rise due to the vague possibility that the US dollar / Dirham peg will soon be abolished - thereby giving everybody an automatic pay rise as the Dirham appreciates against the dollar. If the peg doesn't get abolished by years end they will have bought themselves a few extra months of penny pinching and another pat on the back from Blighty.

Of course then there is the rumour that any increase will be backdated to the 1st sept so maybe we shouldn't be worried - it is already past then so we can all start counting / spending the extra loot in anticipation....mmmmmm might use it to buy a one way ticket home

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I think you're dreaming if you think it will be back paid to September. They know we have to give 3 months notice, so for us in the UAE Centre the increases start from the 1st of Jan, 3 months after the announcement.

And I think Serco are dreaming if they think a currency revaluation or currency depeg will happen. The UAE have stated categorically again and again the peg is here to stay, and I for one think they will stick to that.

Payrises will come when the the lack of bums on seats seriously delays some serious airlines aircraft. Once it starts hitting the correct people hard enough in the hip pocket they will quite gladly pay whatever is needed to get things moving again.

[2 Dogs]

From Arabian Business today ........

Etisalat bumps up salaries 10% (http://www.itp.com/newsletters/click.php?l=2405&e=pashford=:eim.ae&d=2007-10-24&uri=www.arabianbusiness.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_conte nt%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D502473%253Aetisalat-bumps-up-salaries-10%26Itemid%3D1&pcol=http)
Move a response to rising inflation, aimed at helping retain and recruit staff in competitive market.

Even the tight ar5ed telecom realises the necessity to retain staff ...

I suppose this means all our telecom charges will now go up by 20% to pay for it. Where will it all end ??? ... even my domestic staff costs have increased by 50% in the last few months. If I have to start washing my own underwear I am definitely outa here.

[Quokka]

The AGCC countries have said that they will not de-peg until at least 2010. The World economy is not on stable ground at the moment and the Sub-Prime fallout in the US has only just begun to impact on the wider economy. No happy horizon for the US dollar and don't forget to factor in that oil is traded in US dollars.

Anything can happen and my money will be in that tin on Fox's fridge on my next trip, but don't expect a de-peg before 2010.

Remember the Decore ad... it won't happen overnight... but it will happen.

[African Queen]

I think you're dreaming if you think it will be back paid to September
You were saying ... ANSA

Of course then there is the rumour that any increase will be backdated to the 1st sept so maybe we shouldn't be worried - it is already past then so we can all start counting / spending the extra loot in anticipation....mmmmmm might use it to buy a one way ticket home
:D:):D:):D:):D:ok::ok::ok:
Anybody interested in a one-way ticket to Jo'burg :uhoh:

[bigmanatc]

Ok it happened....and a nice bump too....guess I`ll be hanging around for awhile then....:)

[clipped_wings]

Don't hold your breath for a Dirham revaluation. When it happens count it as a bonus, but it could still be three years away.


Rumour has it that the lads out at Abu Dhabi International have a new package including a hefty increase to housing allowance.


Anyone affected care to enlighten us?

[Fox3snapshot]

Anything can happen and my money will be in that tin on Fox's fridge on my next trip

Mate, every little bit counts...I've gotta start paying the bills for all these Grand Preez this year, this last one in Brazil was a doozy! :p

P.S. Everything they say about the Brazilian women is true....they are great cooks! :E

[Short Approach?]

You guys aren't making any sense... Guess I'd better get used to it right away. :cool:

News on the Dubai-deal? Or do I have to hold my breath to the 30th ? Thanks!

[TheFalcon]

Hey Short Approach, Just got it from the horses mouth that its unlikely to be an announcement for the 30th. The increase is there but its' stillborn and will remain so for who knows fow how long. In the meantime don't hold your breath too much. Things take time here but patience willl get us there(or back home!!)

[Short Approach?]

The usual. :rolleyes:
I wouldn't be that big of a deal for me, if I wasn't in the process on finding a place to live. 2br Marina<-------->Palace on the beach :p

[African Queen]

Don't know anything about Dubai but for AUH Approach and Al Ain .....


:D Let's just say that the COLA (cost of living allowance) more than makes up for the cost of living increases of the last 12 months and the increased accommodation allowance is sufficient for a half reasonable place (if you can find somewhere half reasonable) in which to live.
How long the increases will keep us ahead of the curve remains to be seen but it should keep most people happy for 12 months or so methinks.

How does everybody else feel about it??

[OMRK]

Feel like being a bit more specific about the details? New package for us in the northern emirate should be announced within a week or two ins'allah, so would be nice to compare.
Expecting a big increase here as we are getting radar and talkling about doubleing number of staff next year.

[African Queen]

Prefer not to be specific in an open forum - you know how bitchy people can be!
Surely you have a contact in AUH or ALN u can phone for details.

Heard about your upcoming leap ahead in RAK. Hope it works out better than it did in Al Ain - they got radar 3 or so years ago and never manned it. Now they are taking the control to AUH.

Doubling staff huh? I wonder where they will find them. The new allowances are OK but I don't think it will result in a flood of CV's to SERCo, especially if inflation keeps going at its current rate.

[TinPusher]

Well done guys and not before time too... market forces apply perhaps? Seems within the region it's just the Omani's that are dragging the chain now. One resignation recently with more to follow no doubt....

[Dr. Evil]

I don't think the pay increase (37%) at Abu Dhabi TWR/APP should be kept as a secret so here's the annual starting salary in AED (Dirhams) for the Serco contract:

Basic 170.000
ATC allowance 30.000
Cost of living allowance 73.200
Money in your hand = 273.200 (22.767 monthly)

Housing 113.400 (if cost of housing is less the balance will be paid)
Utilities 6.000

Schoolling for up to two children 76.000
Travel allowance varies depending on family status but roughly 10.000 - 16.000

Basic medical cover, visa/labour cost, loss of license and end of service gratuity included in the contract.

[PMS]

despite the increases for AUH/aln the whole package still is less attractive than the GCAA package if you ask me, but depends again on whether you are married with kids or single.

If single and unattached or married and no kids then you would be laughing all the way to the bank, especially if the Mrs could get work:D

anyway, good that you guys got something, better than nothing, but still a long way to go.

[sandyweazels]

Buddy, why are you so concerned about goings on here in the sandpit?! :hmm:

At the end of the day you won't get a job back here as you are 'infamous' and with this comes the added distinction of being 'notorious'!

Look after your "Sharks', 'Tigers', 'Taipans' and 'Baldocks', more importantly make sure you don't let the Para Drop unfold in the middle of the helo lines when the rotors are turning and burning! Simple really, but I am sure you have a handle on that now......:hmm:

Good luck

:D

[Dr. Evil]

OUCH !!!

Just had the good news recently for Abu Dhabi airport and then kapow! Dubai airport gone up big and ACC still higher than Abu Dhabi airport.

Can Abu Dhabi airport staff survive until April 2009??? There's absolutely no more pocket money left in the Serco contract and how about ADAC's goodwill?? My forecast predicts dark clouds overhead Abu Dhabi airport :uhoh:

[radioexcel]

:ECost of living allowance 73.200and ATC allowance 30.000 Is Sirvaas still to scared to add this to the ATC's salary????? Giving a much better pension package??? :confused:
Happy for the guys getting at least something (still peanuts) but the effort to take up a position in the Middle East for anyone is a very risky business AND to live in such conditions require much much more!!!:O STILL VERY, VERY HAPPY TO HAVE LEFT THE SANDPIT:p
RE

[pocpicadoor]

Time is ripe to get together and organise!

With EKs future relying on More Airplanes as per DXB Airshow figures, the avilability of GOOD atcs should be a gold.... (sorry) oil field: Who wants to be our leader??

POC:suspect:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

For the guys that have left and are happy they left, thats great I'm happy for you.

For the guys that are here, some are happier than others, and some were happy with their lot till they saw someone elses lot was all of a sudden a lot bigger. This especially caused some annoyance when our boss said that Dubai deserved the payrise cos they are so busy. :ugh:

Not saying they aren't but unless all that traffic magically drops from the stratosphere into 40 NM Dubai, they have to be sequenced and organised by someone else. Gee I wonder if those people also are a little busy.

As I said previously congrats to Dubai and enjoy. To Abu Dhabi App, congrats on at least catching up to where you should have been for the last couple of years.

To my fellow ACCers, lets just hope the Sheikh Z road slopes down towards Abu Dhabi and some off those big bucks being thrown around trickle down our way. Cheers all.

[TheFalcon]

ANSA - I sincerely think that giving different payment to ATCO's working in the same region brings about unhappiness. I can understand how you feel down in AUH, it was the same for us in DXB when your payrise were announced. If I were there or SHJ or any SERCo place in the Gulf I would be mad about all this so I sincerely hope what you said about
money coming your way does indeed happen. After all what you do good or bad ultimately ends up in our laps and vice versa. What I disagree with you (once again) is about the traffic. Much has been said about numbers but its not just the numbers that make or break but the complexity of the traffic. Approach is more complex than Area anytime (I am an ex-Area controller so I know) for the simple reason that traffic conglomerates in a relative smaller space which is the TMA. Once again I will not take away any of merits of your duties or what you should be paid in comparison to whom but thats the way thing stand in ATC anywhere in the world. Good luck and keep up the good work!

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Sorry have to agree to disagree there. Sit in on East and handle the Darax nose to nose climb descent, versus RAK and FUJ landing and arrivals, while trying to sequence through BUBIN and do the MUSAP cross with the TARDI departures and say that this isn't the most complex bit of airspace anywhere in the UAE (including App areas). As I said we will have to agree to disagree.

[DTLP]

Likewise, I'm at an adjacent ACC unit and have to agree to disagree. The region has some very complex enroute airspace, and I certainly would not put APP ahead of ACC, nor the other way around. Equality of pay is required across the board in the region. We are all working extremely hard in trying circumstances. Dubai increase all good, well done. I hope everyone will catch the new benchmark sooner than later.

[TheFalcon]

I respect your opinions and as you said I agree to disagree. The trouble is that whoever pays our salaries seems to agree with me at the moment. Maybe its not a question of numbers and complexity after all but simply a matter of supply and demand. DXB is well short of controllers plus it needs new ones for the MXB (the new one will be now called al Makthoum International not Jebel Ali I have heard). How are you with numbers over there? In DXB we are on minimal breaks and when sickness kicks the numbers do not add up. We need controllers and FAST!

[bloggerjck]

Falcon, as you would see on almost a daily basis, ANSA always believes he can piss further, and is at the end of the day driven by money, hence he always believes HE is the one who should be paid the most. He is the best controller in the world, he works the busiest, most complex airspace.....blah blah blah. Same post different stink...........

[Funk]

I wont get into a pissing competition, no winners there :ugh:
I like working here in the Area centre and I am reasonably happy with salary (could always use some more, Ducati's don't come cheap!)
BUT the housing and housing allowances provided by both Serco & GCAA are woefully inadequate and until that is fixed (quickly I hope) I cannot recommend to anyone coming to the UAE. This issue is more than likely to shorten my intended stay here....pitty could be a bloody nice place.

:{ and the 'National' burnt down last night, no more cheap grog:{

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

You're really not worth the trouble. :yuk:

Falcon. As we have all said we will agree to disagree on workload and complexity. That's fine. If I was sitting in your seat I would probably see it your way and vice versa. Honestly if we were all in the same centre, a lot of the problems we have would be resolved in a couple of shifts and a few swiftly thrown strip holders, but that will never be with the politics here. Overall though considering the growth in traffic here (see latest order by Emirates at the Air Show!), I think all the units here do the best job we all can considering. Cheers.

[BlueSkye]

:{ and the 'National' burnt down last night, no more cheap grog:{


Drove past there a little while ago and still open!! "Reports of my death have been exaggerated."


Approach is more complex than Area anytime


More busy maybe, but I dont think more complex. I have have always maintained that APP controllers work harder than ACC controllers but ACC controllers have more knowledge about ATC.

[BlueSkye]

Maybe its not a question of numbers and complexity after all


Good recovery.

[Mr Flip Fop]

More busy maybe, but I dont think more complex. I have have always maintained that APP controllers work harder than ACC controllers but ACC controllers have more knowledge about ATC.Enough already.... Bad enough that half of this thread is wasted on a contest on who is the more busy, or who has the more complex airspace.. Now were actually really getting into the fog....

ACC controllers have more ATC knowledge...

Does that mean that ACC knowledge is more "ATC knowledge" than APP knowledge or Tower knowledge?

A lot of us probably have mixed experience..several ratings in the bag.. But I guess if you are an APP controller today, thats where your expertise is and vice versa.. I know more about what I do, than I do about what you do etc...

From an outside perspective, it may not always seem that way..but thats a different story. Controllers have a history of poking their noses in others business....and not much good comes of that...

Anyway....

We should all make the same money... and we all work hard...

Lets try to work even more togehter, tfcnumbers are increasing by the day..:ok:

[Canoehead]

The 80% payraise we got in Dubai has nothing to do with how hard we work compared to Abu Dhabi or Baharain or FUJ tower or the cleaner. You don't get paid according to how busy you are. As in life, you often don't get what you deserve, but rather what you negotiate.
Here in the Gulf, it' is basic economics; supply VS demand.
DXB has a hugh requirement for terminal-rated controllers. The pool is very small. World-wide, perhaps one in ten radar controllers is a terminal-type. Experienced complex tower people are also hard to find.
The local managers, to their credit, have successfully negotiated with those who pay our salaries a renumeration package which makes us some of the highest-paid controllers on mother earth. This is the ONLY way to attract the attention of this limited pool of controllers and actually have some move here.
So stop making yellow snow. After all, here approach gets the same money as tower. Let the DXB package be a benchmark for ALL controllers world-wide to use when bargaining their next package.
My 2 Dirhams worth

[TheFalcon]

""Lets try to work even more togehter, tfcnumbers are increasing by the day..""

When I came here first in the Gulf I noticed that there was a degree of hostility between ACC and APP controllers which I hadn't experienced anywhere else. The know it all attitude from both sides and the lack of cooperation to facilitate each others jobs simply amazed me. This has somewhat diminished in a way and perhaps it is time everyone realised that pissing on each other only makes the job harder. We all do mistakes one day or another but that makes us more human not incompetent.Controllers everywhere are the same in their attitude towards their job and anyone who has been to IFATCA confernces or changed job several times knows this..... we simply aim to be the safest and the most efficient and proud of it too!!
So I'm with you flip-flop on this.

"".............but ACC controllers have more knowledge about ATC.""


BlueSkye how did you exactly come to this conclusion may I ask? Duuhhh:ugh:

[throw a dyce]

If you are a Tower and Approach Radar validated controller,you are using certainly 2 and possibly 3 ratings if you include procedural approach.
If you are Area then it's 1 or 2 ratings if you include procedural area.
:hmm: Area controllers use bigger radar separations than Approach Radar.
What aspects of ATC do Area controllers have more knowledge of.:confused:

[!turnleftrightnow!]

Jesus Christ....STOP IT!
Folks, I think it´s time to stop comparing apples with peaches!
It is simply impossible to say who´s working harder since APP controllers do the opposit thing an ACC controller does: APPers gather a big number of a/c within a small airspace at minimum spacing. ACCers makes bigger spacing in a bigger airspace to meet the entry conditions of neighbouring sectors. Sure, APPers have a smaller airspace, but all a/c are flying at same slow speed, what makes handling that problem a lot easier. ACCers have do deal with different a/c performances: try to create a good inbound sequence, if 4 out of 10 inbounds are props!

So mates, all of us have to deal with different problems! And we´re ALL doing an excellent job every day!

[BlueSkye]

Falcon, you should feel honoured by my opinion 'cause that technically makes you Mr. Know-It-All, as you were so quick to point out earlier on.

[throw a dyce]

Or if 4 are helis,3 are props and 3 are jets.Bread and butter at our little approach unit.ACCers have to deal with different a/c performances eh.:hmm:.Enjoy your payrise.:cool:

[prowler]

Listen guys,

we all know there was a previous thread which was 'removed' & 'edited' by the Moderators....

With this continuous slanging around, things ARE SURELY NOT GOING TO IMPROVE Salaries & Conditions, for 'those' who are now earning less than US in Dubai.:\

It would be better if 'those' guys in other ATC Units than Dubai, try to negotiate with their own bosses, than trying to justify who is more important as a 'Position' or Sector, or who needs to be paid more!

It is simply DEMAND vs SUPPLY...Khalllaaasssssss:}

We have seen Good AREA ATCOs who cannot be Good APP ATCOs, & Good TWR ATCOs who cannot be Good APP ATCOs, etc etc....

Everyone is IMPORTANT, & we cannot continue comparing apples with peaches....:yuk:


BlueSkye;

More busy maybe, but I dont think more complex. I have have always maintained that APP controllers work harder than ACC controllers but ACC controllers have more knowledge about ATC.

Where did you get this from?:= Tell us all about this, so you can enlighten us about this...:ooh:

With your statements, you should go directly to your management & negotiate a better package on behalf of your colleagues...:E

At times, I believe it's all about Sour Grapes from a few certain guys here. We at Dubai, wish that all of you get what you deserve, & we can always offer you some beer with our extra $$$$$, so maybe, it makes you feel better....:ok:

[critical winge]

From a pilots view point, Dubai can get as busy as anywhere in the world at certain times. These guys n girls do a good job and earn the money they get. I have flown 24 years and wouldn't say they have it easy or otherwise. Very professional and as good a job done as most busy places you can go to. I started life in the ATC world and appreciate their skill. Along with that it's a fair pay now for a fair time worked with very busy and developing airspace. (Although I had to get fed in again the other night as the intercept was too tight with the tailwind and the GS ran away beneath me, or is that my fault for accepting the turn? ;) ).

[BlueSkye]

Gentleman, gentleman. Stop thinking with your ego. Use your analitical minds for this one. Also, separate knowledge from ability. I have a lot of knowledge about the golf swing, but I'm not Tiger.

APP controllers work harder - That's the nature of the beast. Lots of aircraft congregated in a small airspace. And they all have to go to one spot. I have seen the carnage a simple go-around causes. Not because you can't handle it, because there just isn't any space to put this guy back again. One double transmission, one missed call and the base turn is late and your sequence goes tits up. With the resultant knock-on effect. It's a precision instrument that needs to be wielded as such. One slip and the thing bleeds to death.

ACC have more ATC knowledge - ATC knowledge is not limited to amount of traffic and size of airspace and vectoring. It's simply that ACC controllers have a lot more information and procedures to think of and adhere to. An ACC controller is a walking AIP. ATS routes and their upper/lower limits and direction. The availability of aforementioned to specific flights. Holding stacks, their upper/lower limits, their inbound HDGs and speeds at different altitudes, direction of pattern. Devision of airspace and the influence on separation in these airspaces. Mixture of radar and procedural separation. Even how you must separate an IFR flight from a Global Hawk! Ground speed, IAS, Mach, Vertical speed and the influence one has on the other.

The list for both is not exhaustive. Its the same game with different rules. Its Match Play vs Stroke Play. ODI vs Test Cricket.

I can assure you no malice was intended and neither should it be inferred. It is my way of differentiating between the two subjects, both of which is an art unto its own.

So, APP controllers work harder, ACC controllers know more.

[LazyLLz]

So I take it then, those that work both ACC & APP on a regular basis are SUPER HUMAN :ok: and should get payed twice as much as single rated controllers!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:ok::D


L_LLz

[TheFalcon]

Blue SKye - Your explanation has made me realise that rather than a know it all as you implied I am total idiot. I could not understand your explanation to your conclusions so its either I'm totally stupid or your theories are totally c..p Probably both some might say !! Cheers :O

[BlueSkye]

LazyLLz. Twice as much is maybe asking to much. If you are dual rated and practise your license at station like Heathrow, where you would do both Area and Approach, then maybe you deserve double. However, most busy stations have specialised ATCs. Correct me if i'm wrong, I think Bahrain controllers hold three ratings and they deserve every cent they can get.

Falcon, you still think it is an attack on you and every APP body out there. You worked both, so I thought maybe you would be able to recall some of the things I was refering to. Alas...

Besides, like my ar$ehole, it is my opinion.

[throw a dyce]

I thought you had to be Tower and Approach Radar rated and validated to be worthy to work in Dubai.Therefore your APP controller must be validated in the TWR as their part of the contract.Or has something changed.:confused:

[Short Approach?]

Or has something changed.
Yes. (pprune will not accept short answers)

[TheFalcon]

Know-it-all is normally a sarcastic comment but anyway your opinion is accepted. Amen.

[Tin-Bullet]

BlueSkye;

So, APP controllers work harder, ACC controllers know more. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

You don't get it do you?

It is simply DEMAND vs SUPPLY

Thats the way 'present situations' are based, negotiated & FINALISED!

Besides, like my ar$ehole, it is my opinion.

Again, EMPTY VESSELS ('try to') MAKE MOST SOUND....:ugh:

[throw a dyce]

Short Approach,
OK so TWR and APP RADAR ratings with 5 years experience,as per Serco adverts is not a minimum requirement.I thought that was a DCA,UAE CAA,whatever it's called now requirement.:confused:

[Fox3snapshot]

Throw a Dice

Pffft, yeah twas the good ol days mate when we actually could afford to set minimum requirements, as Tin-Bullet points out, supply and demand.

Based on the cr*p salaries and benefits the Serco contracts afforded here in the Middle East for quite a while we couldn't get anyone to come here so the 'minimum requirement' was just that...and less!! This led to 2-3 year experience Area recruits and recruits from countries that were on the 'do not recruit list'.

What the Dubai contract has done is reminded the industry in this region the worth of our profession. With 200-300+ orders of more for this region in aircraft and infrastructire that that comes with, it will be nothing short of critical for this trend to continue! :cool:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I have to agree with all those that are saying that the package units offer is directly related to what amount of money it takes to attract the number of recruits that are needed. Dubai has cottoned on finally that they need big numbers to staff the new airport (whatever they decide to call it, can I suggest "Middle of nowhere International"), and so they have upped their packages big time.

What UAE ACC has not realised is that at least 20% of our controllers are leaving in the next 12 months with confirmed start dates back in their home countries. This when we should actually be staffing up to accomodate a move to a new centre and a new system, so as to allow for all the training and transition resources that go along with that sort of move. What we got here just keeps us up with the inflation/currency slump, and so not surprising most of the applications we have got since the increase have been from ex controllers and controllers from developing countries. Thats not gonna do it, but I guess we will have to wait till the crunch comes and then something might be done. Unfortunately not as forward thinking down here.

As far as ATC knowledge goes, I will make a vote for Procedural Air Traffic Controllers, whether area, approach or tower. They are the guys that have to crunch the most numbers and remember the most rules and procedures of anybody. All us radar guys just play a big video game each day, albeit a very intense stressful video game. Either way thats irrelevent, and I will say again congratulations to the Dubai guys. Still waiting for them to send us a bar fridge to put our milk in though! :E

[Tiberius]

As far as ATC knowledge goes,
You blokes are all wrong. It's MANAGERS that know the most about ATC. Just ask them! :ugh:

[TinPusher]

Half right Tiberius..... it's HR managers that know the most:suspect:

[the Shue]

Hey folks, a little bit of thread drift here.

What is it going to take to get the ACC up to 56,000 AEDs per month? Well done, Dubai. As far as I'm concerned, I don't want any OMDB App guys (or girls) leaving because we want all the experience we can get catching the ever growing stack of tin we're throwing at you each night. :ok:

By the way Blueskye, I know what your saying but all the same, I wouldn't want to compare schlongs with a guy named choclit. :sad:

[Short Approach?]

Ballpark figure of twr/app controllers needed in DXB to fill in the blanks. Anyone?

[taekyon2]

I've spent hours browsing threads about Serco, DXB and ATC in the ME in general now, and still haven't been able to filter out precise and most importantly up to date answers to some very basic questions. I realize some of you guys have become tired of talking about the same old stuff over and over again, but I'd really appreciate if someone could give me a basic idea about a few things. (maybe also through PM?) Anyone in the know should only need a few minutes to answer this and would really help me out.

(FYI I'm a 28 year old guy, 6 years of experience (APP and Lower ACC) at a large European hub airport, SIM instructor and OJTI, an have pondered my options of eventually heading out to the UAE in about two years or so.)

1) What is the present salary offered to APP controllers at DBX? What benefits (like housing allowance, for a single guy, no kids). Are PEP tickets with EK or other airlines available?

2) How long does the average contract run? Are they usually extended after they expire?

3) Where to find information about recruitment online? I know Serco's website and didn't find any information there.

4) What I haven't found anything about on this forum so far...How many weeks/months of SIM and OJT before you get a rating? Any particular issues worth mentioning with this?

5) Any other essential information (e.g. on general working conditions) would also be highly appreciated.

Many thanks!

[Canoehead]

taekyo2: PM me.

[prowler]

1) What is the present salary offered to APP controllers at DBX? What benefits (like housing allowance, for a single guy, no kids). Are PEP tickets with EK or other airlines available?

Approx 560,000 - 600,000 AED (approx EUR 95,956) YEARLY BUT TAX-FREE INCLUDING ALL Allowances & for you single guy 2 yearly tickets back home!

2) How long does the average contract run? Are they usually extended after they expire?

MINIMUM 3years as the recent Contract Offers...If you decide to quit BEFORE 3years...Be READY TO PAY A FINE, a % of the costs etc etc..If you decide to stay AFTER your 3 year Contract Expired, it is an indefinite contract, subject to SERCo RETAINING ther ATC Services Contract with DCA...that is in DUBAI DXB/OMDB...APP/TWR ONLY!..NOT ACC...

3) Where to find information about recruitment online? I know Serco's website and didn't find any information there.

No info you can find on SERCo's Website......Unless you wanna get into the massive queue of applicants, which, lately was around 54 applicants on HOLD......PM me

4) What I haven't found anything about on this forum so far...How many weeks/months of SIM and OJT before you get a rating? Any particular issues worth mentioning with this?

Normally it takes around maximum 2 months of Sim, depending on the Rating which I presume is Radar for you (maximum or can be even less) & OJT you are expected to validate by around 160hrs OJT...Again depending on your performance....

5) Any other essential information (e.g. on general working conditions) would also be highly appreciated.


Be more specific please...Ask & we will try to help..

Good Luck:ok:

[taekyon2]

Prowler, thanks a lot for your concise answers. This is exactly what I have been looking for.

It's interesting to read that there is such a long queue of applicants on hold. I've been thinking demand for controllers at DXB was significant, also because allegedly quite a number of staff left. As far as the selection process for new staff goes I assume prior experience is taken into consideration and not only your number in sequence of all the applications sent in?!

Yes my rating is radar.

Thanks again!

[prowler]

Since we had 'the massive 80% raise', applications started flooding in....Even some of those who resigned, came back!!

With regards to recruitment for 2008, I guess all the Training Slots have been taken, so perhaps your best chance could be from 2009, unless somthing dramatic happens & a rash of resignations takes place again!

The raise was definitely a Big Plus for us here, but still with the present rate of inflation, I doubt how long it will last to cover all expenses! As for selection process, prior experience is definitely taken into consideration, not only your no. in the queue!

The Radar Unit should be moving from Dubai, down to the New Airport in Jebel Ali 'AIA - Al Maktoum International Airport'.

There are many good things about Dubai & ATC itself here, but you have to be ready to face the other side of the coin.... - the many bad things around!

Go through all the relevant threads & topics about Dubai or M.E. & you'll get a good picture, but the best thing to do, is, come down here, have a look for yourself & then, if it suits you, go for it, if not, stay where you are or go elsewhere!

And regarding accomodation, the present accomodation allowance is around 160,000 AED, per year (for single guys), which is INCLUDED in the package as I posted previously, unless of course you decide to take Company Accomodation...But if you decide to rent a place yourself, this depends on the location & your taste!..For everything here, BE READY to pay a PREMIUM!......I doubt how much the present accomodation allowance 160,000 - 180,000 (single to married) will cover all the costs in the coming months!

Good Luck Mate!:ok: