AN-12 crash in Domodedovo.

[Milan N]

Today at 4:16 local time AN-12 RA-93912 has crashed just after take-off from Domodedovo airport (Moscow). 5 crew and 2 on board are died. :(
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1178806/M/

[TopBunk]

UUDD 290130Z 23001MPS 0150 R32R/0250 FG VV001 14/13
Q1010 TEMPO 0500 FG=
UUDD 290100Z 21002MPS 180V240 2400 FG SCT001 14/13
Q1010 TEMPO 0500 FG=
UUDD 290030Z VRB01MPS 0100 R32R/0375 FG SCT100 14/13
Q1010 TEMPO 0500 FG=
UUDD 290000Z 00000MPS 0500 R32R/1400 FG SCT100 13/13
Q1010 TEMPO 0500 FG=
UUDD 282330Z 24002MPS 210V270 3000 BR SCT100 14/13
Q1010 NOSIG=

Weather may have been a factor....

[Milan N]

Nobody knows.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

A bit more here.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20070729-0
Hope it helps
Be lucky
David

[kingair9]

Just for interim info:

CVR is under investigation, FDR destroyed.

Airline is grounded by Ministry until official report is out. Ministry checked first of all about over-loading which seems to be common practice again in Russia (thought theses times were past...) but a/c had only 9 tons freight on board, 20 tons allowed max.

Source: German newspaper reports.

[F4F]

Seemingly lost engines 3 and 4 some 4 minutes after take off :hmm:

[ABUKABOY]

I remember seeing these taking-off from Istanbul. It always seemed to be a curvature-of-the-earth thing, smoking like an old tramp-steamer. I was told that the trajectory was as much the result of a probable overload as the wide gap between Vr and Vmca at take-off/climb power on these aircraft. Failure of any outboard while transiting this uncomfortably wide no-man's-land saw the aircraft immediately try and roll inverted, (apparently), enough to cope with in VMC, but if they were in IMC??!!
Anyway, condolences as appropriate to all involved.

[transilvana]

Russia must enter the 21st century, you can not imagine how much crap is flying over there, I am based at Moscow and aviation over there is stuck on the 19th century, all those smokies YAK´s, tupolev, IL from the 50´s flying with a GPS worth 5 bucks at any flea market, and controllers are the worst thing I´ve seen in the world so far.

[swish266]

:mad:Abukaboy:
I was told that the trajectory was as much the result of a probable overload as the wide gap between Vr and Vmca at take-off/climb power on these aircraft. Failure of any outboard while transiting this uncomfortably wide no-man's-land saw the aircraft immediately try and roll inverted, (apparently), enough to cope with in VMC, but if they were in IMC??!!
U were told wrong!
D An-12 was designed as a military transport to operate off unpaved strips. It is tough to fly and unforgiving, but a lot of military a/c are like this.Your comment is maliciously misleading:mad:
:mad:transilvana::mad:
yr comment is worth only 3 min of my time! Russian a/c designed before the collapse of d USSR were better performers than anyth equivallent, built in the West. Smoking engines does not mean underperforming engines. The fuel efficiency was never a design priority while performance was top...
What crap by these 2 posters:=

[Avman]

Besides which (Transilvana) many Russian operators are changing to more advanced modern Russian and western types. It's a gradual process which can't be achieved overnight. As for the safety record of the An-12, I think you'll find it just as good as it's western equivalent, the C-130 Hercules.

[Fromsomewhere]

transilvana, I've seen much worse ATC than in Russia.
if you are based in MOW, please get me one GPS for 5 bucks!
but the same type they have used on crashed An-12.
within split seconds the a/c has lost two engines (Nos 4 and 3), I am sure that such a professional like you could manage the situation, no doubts!

[ZooWarden]

Seems that guy just hates all the Russian. :) Well, they do like vodka, they are definately not "workaholics" and sometimes they don't feel themselves obliged to be compliant with av law and docs. :} But they are sincere and brave people :) Hope, that's enough :):):)

According to their Interstate Aviation Committee the CVR's record of intercom shows a loss of #4 and #3 within a few seconds. The same sh*t did happen with Bulgarian An-12 somewhere in South America.

But could a true reason be recognised without the FDR here ??

[rmac]

We had an Eastern European charter operations' turboprop aircraft in recently, that had operated three charter flights with no gyro due to being a bit short in the cash flow department to get it fixed. The pilots flew because for them it would be difficult to find another job and the weather wasn't too bad. Not sure the customers were given the same option though :hmm:

In Russia particularly, the number of civil servants is currently double the total during Soviet times, when the old empire was significantly larger. This is because being a civil servant is considered a very lucrative option, where any number of bribes can be elicited. Aviation is not exempted from this phenomena.

The fleet of "smokers" is often being operated by cash strapped operators, with poor oversight. The owners are interested in profits and the crews desperate to keep their jobs in current tough times.

I cannot comment on this particular accident, but would not be surprised if any number, or even all of the above factors are included. However we will probably never know, as the investigators and those responsible for the original (lack of) oversight will make sure we don't.

For example, in current economic climate, even if a customer signed up for the entire aircraft to carry only nine tons, the charter company, its employees and even the crew, especially the crew would find personal customers to fill the remaining space to earn additional income, and this "black" cargo would never appear on the manifest, loadsheet or any other official document. Flying a cargo aircraft with less than half max load is a business opportunity that would never be missed in Russia today.

Sorry if it sounds depressing, but its the truth.

[ZooWarden]

Unfortunately, you're absolutely right.

[ABUKABOY]

My oh My, seem to have touched a nerve there, all I was doing was passing on received information. How about coming out into the open, and enlightening us all as to the privileged standpoint from which you spout your opinions.
Meanwhile, sorry for having the temerity to trespass in YOUR thread, you downright rude
individual.

[lowflare]

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[rmac]

214, No doubt that two out on the one side would make the AN12 unflyable in most conditions, so first question is probably directed at maintenance and oversight in that department.

I still would be very sceptical about W+B claims by the investigators, who seem keen to get that information out quickly, and are probably basing it solely on the aircrafts paperwork.

Lowflare, great illustration, I remember being pax on a T134 years ago, departing Atyrau in Western Kazakhstan (an airfield with which I am very familiar) and the mains came off the ground in the turning circle at the end of the runway, fortunately its flat steppe so as long as the aircraft is airborne, nothing to hit. Unlike an other occasion when I was in the jumpseat of an IL76 in Goma, Western Congo, which took the tiles (maybe straw !) off the roofs of some houses (huts) at the end of the runway, before making a passable impression of a wing-in-ground craft over Lake Kivu.:eek:

[dmitrik]

Russian media reports that leading theory is multiple bird strike.
http://www.vremya.ru/print/185303.html (in russian)
According to unnamed experts who took part in the investigation the reason for engines 3 and 4 failure is "organic matter in the engine air intake". The pilots did their best in the situation but they had no chances. Technical side of the investigation is almost complete, it is now up to ornithologists to identify the species from the remaining few grey feathers.

[islandjumper]

I've watched fully loaded An-12s climbing out of Baghdad International, spiralling steeply with their engines belching black smoke to keep within the confines of the airport and avoid AA fire.
Can hardly believe a birdstrike cud bring down that beast.

[Ranger 1]

Birds can turn up on an airfield at anytime of the day, or night especially if a roost is disturbed, or due to adverse weather.:=

[Seloco]

Is bird ingestion that common with turboprops? I would have thought that a bird would have to be rather determined to make it through the propeller disc and then into a narrow annular intake, as opposed to the large intake area presented by a turbofan or -jet.

Are turboprops tested for birdstrikes in the same way as fans?

[Ranger 1]

Bird injestion in turbo props is not uncommon, one tragic incident comes to mind, Such as a C-130 in the Netherlands in 1996 which resulted in the tragic loss of 34 lives.
Although the prop blades make good meat choppers, you have a much smaller turbine to deal with the remains once they have made it through to the intake.
Piston engine aircraft have also suffered from engine damage for example, Carb intakes & oil coolers damaged / blocked, along with damaged cowlings.
As far as I'm aware turbo prop engines are tested as part of the certification process, but not sure to what number or weight of birds.

[lomapaseo]

Are turboprops tested for birdstrikes in the same way as fans?

Yes Bird size and quantity is set roughly as a percentage of the intake area (actually it is a stepped relationship to correspond with typical flocking bird sizes) see FAR/JAR 33.76