Licence Question - An odd one...

[S-Works]

I had a pilot bring a license to me today to sign for his renewal and I have found an odd situation.

He had an old UK CAA license with a medical that expired 2004. He switched to an NPPL in Sep 2004. In Sep 2005 his revalidation page on his CAA license was signed for 2 years despite only having an NPPL medical.

I checked it today and found the error on the ratings page. I also found that his NPPL only has SLMG on it with no SEP.

Where does he stand?

I am sure he has been flying illegally on this basis as he has no medical for a CAA license and his NPPL only has SLMG.

Comments!

[BEagle]

The NPPL and UK PPL are totally different licences.

Without a JAA Class 2 medical, the pilot's UK PPL was invalid. If he then flew a SEP or SSEA aeroplane without a valid medical, he did so illegally.

The Examiner who signed the Sep 2005 validation should have checked that the pilot held a valid JAA medical. If he changed to a NPPL in Sep 2004, he would have had difficulty in completing 12 hr PIC and a 1 hr training flight in the last 12 months of a Rating expiring in Sep 2005.

As regards the NPPL, he could quite simply have arranged for both SSEA and SLMG Class Ratings to be included in his NPPL at the time of issue. Why did he not do so? He was very poorly advised.

If he wishes to fly SSEA aerolanes, he will now need to complete the relevant training and apply for a SSEA Class Rating to be included in his NPPL. Any illegal SEP Class flying will be readily apparent in his logbook; however, the CAA do recognise that many pilots have misunderstood the NPPL requirements (hence the forthcoming ANO change), so it is highly unlikely that he will find himself in trouble.

Without a JAA Class 2 medical, he cannot fly on his UK PPL; without a SSEA Class Rating, he cannot fly anything except SLMGs on his NPPL.

[S-Works]

Thanks Beagle, that was how I interpreted it but needed someone wiser to confirm my thoughts!

It seems the pilot never thought to actually check the NPPL was correct when he got it. The examiner at the last renewal signed the CAA license page which shows SEP Land but I suspect thinking it was the NPPL page without checking the reference number at the top. A poor show on the part of the examiner I think.

So according to my calculations the pilot has not actually made a legal flight in nearly 3 years apart from his hour as PUT in March!

Will he have to do a skill test or just differences training and have me add SEP Land to his license?

[DFC]

There is no requirement for an examiner to check that the pilot has a valid medical when the pilot renews a SEP class rating by experience. There is no requirement for the pilot to hold a valid medical when completing the administrative act of getting an examiner to sign his/her licence. What they can not do is exercise the privileges until they do have a medical.

The examiner is required to;

1. Check that the existing rating is within it's period of validity

2. Check the logbook for the required experience and if applicable the flight with an instructor.

3. Sign the licence page

4. Fill in the requried form and send it off to Gatwick

I and most examiners I know will do a quick check of medical, licence expiry (JAR ones) and such like so that the licence holder can be assisted in avoiding something going out of date. However, there is no requirement other than what I indicated above.

In my opinion, the pilot should simply be advised that you can not sign the revalidation page this time because of the fact that the paperwork is not correct. They should contact the CAA for advice and either get the SSEA on the NPPL or a Class 2 medical. The CAA say that in such a case, they will sign the rating revalidation for this pilot once "the paperwork problem" has been sorted out.

Unless the previous examiner signed the revalidation outside the validity of the previous rating they did nothing wrong.

Regards,

DFC

[BEagle]

DFC, the Chief Flight Examiner requires you to check the medical.

If flights were made without a medical during the validity period, the licence would be invalid and hence any PIC flights would be illegal and would not count towards the revalidation. At least, that's my simplistic view.

No medical = invalid licence
Invalid licence = renewal LST!

bose-x, no need for a GST, just the REV06.4 requirements - 'sufficient' differences training to refresh SEP skills, then apply to NPLG for the SSEA Class Rating to be included in the NPPL - you cannot 'add' the Rating yourself.

[S-Works]

Thanks Beagle. I will help him get it sorted. I am going to call the CAA shortly.
DFC, Beagle beat me to it, my guidance notes from the CAA require me to check all the paperwork is in order including the medical hence the reason I picked up the problem.

[DFC]

I think that we are all saying the same thing;

The pilot had to meet the renewal requirements legally. i.e. They had to have a valid medical etc when completing the flights claimed (except the dual flight). However, they do not need to hold a valid medical at the time the licence is signed.

eg Flying required completed During January. Medical expires in February, pilot completed dual flight in March and approaches Examiner in April to sign certificate that expires in May.

The pilot has demonstrated that they have legally met the requirements for the examiner to sign the licence page and the examiner has no legal basis for not signing the page.

Of course the pilot can not exercise the privileges until they have a medical but that could be their next port of call.

The whole thing gets messy when the pilot has completed the requirements legally but has say in the above example some solo flights during March with no medical. The pilot has met the requirements for the licence to be signed. The pilot has also made some illegal flights. Legally the examiner is required to sign the page but there is also the separate fact that the pilot has flown illegally which the CAA have issued guidance on.

Regards,

DFC

[the dean]

hi BEagle,

think its acaedemic in the circumstances but just on the topic of the SEL and the medical, in JAA land...there is no requirement to check the medical when revalidating SEL rating by proficiency...

if the candidate meets the requirements to renew he is entitled to have his/her SEL signed up.

the licence is driven by two things...1. the rating and 2. the medical.

we can renew the rating even though the medical is out of date...but the pilot cannot fly in command until he/she has a valid medical..

the dean.

[hugh flung_dung]

DFC, I agree that the lack of a medical is not cause to refuse to sign a revalidated rating, but could you expand on there is also the separate fact that the pilot has flown illegally which the CAA have issued guidance on - I don't recall seeing any guidance.
Is there a requirement to get them to confess to Gatwick and ask for forgiveness on the rare occasions when we find someone who has inadvertently flown with a lapsed something-or-other? My approach so far has been to advise them on how to fix the error and to tell them not to fly until they've done so.

HFD

[DFC]

HFD,

I have come across this a number of times - flying with no medical, flying with no C of E or C of T, flying without having the rating page signed, flying with a JAR PPL that is no longer valid even though the SEP was.

The advice from Gatwick was - not to sign the licence and have the pilot return the licence plus logbook to Gatwick. They would "discuss" the matter with the pilot and they would sign off the licence.

Personally and some other examiners I know agree that there is a bit of a minefield here which the CAA leave us out on a bit of a limb;

eg.

Person produces a logbook with a mix of legal and illegal flying. Where does it say that an examiner can legally refuse to sign the ratings page if the pilot produces the correct legal evidence required by JAR-FCL, the ANO and the Standards documents.

and

Who is to say that they did not break the law on all their flights eg illegal public transport, ifr flying with no instrument qualification low flying etc etc.

I think that the examiner is merely performing an administrative function and no more. They are not the police of aviation. The pilot making the request for the licence to be signed has to make an application/declaration and is reminded of the consequences of making a false declaration.

Personally, I will do what I can to assist pilots and do a good scan of what is presented and remind them of up-coming renewals, medicals etc but I do not think that I am obliged to do so.

Regards,

DFC

PS BEagle,

I can't find anything from Pat L regarding this can you give me a clue?

[S-Works]

Well I have discussed the issue with the CAA and the NPPL people. The CAA PLD told me this morning that we are required to check the medical is valid. Until I am told something different then I will continue to do so.

This discussion is not about the fact that the medical was not checked it is around the fact that the pilot appears to have flown illegally for 3 years following what seems to have been the result of an incorrect NPPL application which could have been picked up at the renewal if the paperwork was read properly. After all that was how I picked it up.......

[DFC]

Did they say that the medical had to be valid at the moment the licence is signed? If they did then they need to change the standards document because it is no longer "standard".

Perhaps this highlights the problem with a country having three different PPLs for Single Engine Piston pilots

Regards,

DFC

[BEagle]

Not that difficult - it's only commonsense:

Are you legal? Yes - I'll sign. No - go away!!

[DFC]

BEagle,
Playing a bit of Devils Advocate here;
You say - "Are you legal? Yes - I'll sign. No - go away!!"
Where in the ANO, the standards documents or LASORS does it say that the Examiner being asked must check the legality of the flights claimed?
I know we all do check but I do not think that there is any legal basis for doing such a check.
The law basically says that an examiner will sign the licence provided the pilot provides the required logbook evidence. The responsibility for complying with the law and not providing false evidence I believe rests fully with the pilot.

Imagine a pilot presents a licence and logbook to you and says here is my logbook showing evidence of having met the requirements and here is the licence - please sign the rating page. You perhaps say "where is your medical" to which they reply - "it is in my CPL licence" (quite common) or they say it has lapsed and I am going to the AME next week for a renewal before I fly my aircraft to France the next day. Are you going to refuse to sign? If so what legal basis do you have?

Regards,
DFC

[WestWind1950]

eh, question.....

it would seem to me that if his medical has expired, he can't even fly dual with an instructor/examiner! So, I would think for that reason alone the instrutor/examiner should have to check if it's current! Even flying dual is performing the rights of the license, which requires a current medical.

And I would think you cannot sign off a license which doesn't COMPLETELY meet all requirements! He must get his medical, THEN go for the check/training ride!

[BEagle]

BEagle,
Playing a bit of Devils Advocate here;
You say - "Are you legal? Yes - I'll sign. No - go away!!"
Where in the ANO, the standards documents or LASORS does it say that the Examiner being asked must check the legality of the flights claimed?

No idea. But if you don’t then you could be accused of being complicit with the pilot’s illegal flying activities.

I know we all do check but I do not think that there is any legal basis for doing such a check.

So what?

The law basically says that an examiner will sign the licence provided the pilot provides the required logbook evidence. The responsibility for complying with the law and not providing false evidence I believe rests fully with the pilot.

No, the Examiner may sign but only if he/she is completely happy.

Imagine a pilot presents a licence and logbook to you and says here is my logbook showing evidence of having met the requirements and here is the licence - please sign the rating page. You perhaps say "where is your medical" to which they reply - "it is in my CPL licence" (quite common) or they say it has lapsed and I am going to the AME next week for a renewal before I fly my aircraft to France the next day. Are you going to refuse to sign?

Yes – I would not sign. You cannot hold a UK or JAR-FCL PPL and a UK or JAR-FCL CPL concurrently – the CPL susbsumes the PPL and it is the SEP Class Rating which is being revalidated/renewed, not the licence. My answer would be “Come back with a valid medical and I’ll sign”. In any case, if he/she says the medical needs renewing, how do you know that the qualifying flights were made with a valid medical?

If so what legal basis do you have?

I neither know nor care. I’m more interested in protecting people from their own stupidity and in ensuring that they fly legally.

[BristolScout]

Beagle.

I'm not sure you're completely right in your contention that a CPL or higher licence subsumes a PPL. Ancient aviator that I am, I have one of those old 'forever' PPLs as well as my ATPL and I understand that I can still utilise that PPL, should I so choose (though, for the life of me I can't see why I'd want to!). This came out in my most recent Instructor Seminar.

[S-Works]

NO you do not use your PPL. You use the rights of the license that you hold and the class rating on it.

I was told by the CAA that we revalidate the rating, so in this discussion the SEP rating. The next licence in the chain replaces the previous. If you give up flying commercially for example retire. You will lapse to a Class 2 medical and an SEP rating but you will still hold the ATPL license even if all the other ratings on it lapse.

[DFC]

What if one has a PPL (one of those for ever ones) with SEP rating and others including IMC, and an ATPL with a big jet type rating and multi pilot IR.

One uses the PPL for fun and the ATPL for work.

The licence numbers are different and are on the ratings page of each.

-------------
In the absence of BEagle giving anything other than a "we do cause we do" answer, I have discussed this with someone who knows more about this than myself (hense the delay).

The simple situation I am told is that the rating, medical and licence validity are totally separate independent issues. The only time they combine is so that you can exercise the privileges when you must have all 3.
It is possible to renew a JAA SEP rating every 2 years without holding a JAA medical. Someone actually does it.
The answer is that they held a UK PPL but went N reg for the IFR flying and got a full US PPL (not one issued on the basis of the JAA PPL) to which they added an IR. They do quite a lot of flying and even fly G reg VFR with their US PPL and FAA medical (all legal).
Every 2 years they get a JAA examminer to sign off the rating in the UK-PPL for another 2 years because they have the required hours and dual flight (club requirement).
They say that they want to keep it valid because if they return to using the UK licence they simply get a medical insted of having to do the requirements for a rating lapsed by some 7 or 8 years now - fair enough.
The CAA does not have a problem provided they do not exercise the privileges of the UK licence until they have a valid JAA medical.
With regard to the renewal requriements, the CAA confirm that it is an administrative procedure - no more than that. Many people signing the ratings pages are not and never were instructors. They (R) Examiners simply satisfy the CAA requirement to honestly and correctlyt perform the admin job for them.
Regards,
DFC

[BEagle]

DFC, your PPL should have been submitted to the CAA when the person applied for his/her commercial licence.

The SEP Class Rating and IMC Rating should be included in the commercial licence; the person has a single CAA reference number and that is all.

You cannot have one UK licence 'for fun' and another JAR-FCL licence 'for work'.

The only people signing off licence rating pages are those authorised to do so by the CAA. Only non-instructors on the CAA staff will have signed licence rating pages.

[DFC]

BEagle,

The CAA reference number is nothing more than that. It can be on a PPL, a CPL/ATPL and an ATC Licence all at the same time.

There is no requirement for one to give up one's valid for life UK PPL when one obtains a JAA CPL or ATPL.

Your Statement that ;

"Only non-instructors on the CAA staff will have signed licence rating pages."

Is totally incorrect. There are what the CAA call "R" examiners and I know of at least one who is not and has never been an instructor of any sort.
Doing an admin job does not require instructor skills.

Regards,

DFC

[BEagle]

But an 'R' examiner is also an 'R' instructor!

I didn't mean that the authorised signatory must be a Flight Instructor.

You don't surrender a PPL to the CAA, they will, if necessary, re-issue it in the new format with a new number.

My old 1968-era BoT-issued PPL was replaced by a new-style PPL with a new number; that was replaced by a R/BCPL and ultimately an ATPL. I could have chosen to have either the R/BCPL or ATPL re-issued, but not both. The 'lifetime' new-style UK PPL can be revalidated if the ATPL expires and I transfer the relevant ratings to it, but otherwise it is in suspended animation.

[DFC]

BEagle,

I really am surprised.

A person who obtains any licence or medical or approval such as examiner from the caa will be given a CAA reference number. That reference number stays with them for ever and links all their dealings with the caa. It is their "file" number within which records of medical, licences, ratings and approvals etc can be checked.

To say that a PPL becomes "suspended" when one gets a CPL or ATPL is utter tosh.

Please tell me where a microlight rating can be added to a JAR CPL or ATPL?

A perswon's PPL and CPL do not have the same licence number. They are separate independent licenses with their own numbers. What is common is the CAA reference number (explained above) which makes up part of the licence number.

I am surprised that you never noticed that PPLs begin UK/PP/ and CPLs begin UK/CP/ etc

You said;
But an 'R' examiner is also an 'R' instructor!

What?

Is this some imposter posing as BEagle?

There is no such thing as an 'R' instructor.

There are people authorised bu the CAA to sign off ratings in licenses who have never been any form of instructor. As I said I know of at least one and that one will probably never be an instructor. They are authorised to sign the page in your licence - a simple admin matter requiring an honest ability to do a simple admin task according to the standards document.

Once again I am so surprised at some of the comments that I think someone has managed to become a BEagle imposter!

Regards,

DFC

[BEagle]

You do not need a Microlight Rating if you have a UK-issued JAR-FCL SEP Class Rating - it is included in the privileges of the SEP Class Rating once you have completed appropriate differences training. Check LASORS.

Except for the NPPL, you cannot run 2 UK-issued aeroplane licences concurrently. The 'senior' licence subsumes the 'junior' - all ratings are to be maintained on the senior.

I concede that many R examiners don't do much in the way of instruction - just make the simple task of talking on the wireless needlessly complicated. But many certainly do a fair bit of decent practical instruction.

[DFC]

BEagle,

There is a difference between not needing to have a rating and actually having one and keeping it valid.

As for R Examiners, one that I am thinking of would be illegal if they performed any form of flight instruction because they do not have and never had an instructor rating. They are not a ground instructor.

All they have is an approval from the CAA which authorises them to sign off ratings that are revalidated by experience.

Please reas the appropriate standards document which explains all this very clearly.

Regards,

DFC

[BEagle]

I will ignore your rather puerile jibes and will merely suggest that you do some reading yourself - to bring yourself up to date.


Going back to the original thread, if someone turns up for a Rating revalidation, you are required by the CAA CFE to check that the licence, Medical and rating are all valid. Period. Ask him yourself if you need further convincing - I raised the point at a 'senior instructor's seminar' (their description, not mine!) and he agreed most emphatically that you are to do so.

[hugh flung_dung]

I raised the point at a 'senior instructor's seminar' (their description, not mine!)
Now I feel totally undervalued - I didn't get an invite :{
What, I wonder, is a Senior Instructor? (I s'pose if I have to ask then I'm not one) and what happened to Examiner's seminars?

HFD

[Mad Girl]

HFD
Now I feel totally undervalued

If it's any consolation - You're not "undervalued" by your students - quite the opposite. :ok:

Thanks for helping me through Tuesday and Saturday. :D


What, I wonder, is a Senior Instructor?

One who's older than the student???? :p