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View Full Version : OPERATORS..... yes you, looky looky.


wateroff
20th Jul 2007, 17:07
I know your sitting there scratching the head, some of you hiring consultants to figure out why we left, some of you dropping the minimums, some flirting with putting minimum hour drivers, even imports, into that funny, sometimes noisy place with all the pretty lights in the front........... but wait.

And wait for it. ---------------- "Conditions." There I said it, I know, I know stupid thought. STOP, dont click that mouse.

Just stop and have a yarn with the drivers. It may not be much, maybe a few less overnights, dare I say a salary 'enhancement'.

Last time I checked, most of you aren't doing too badly, profits are up, fleets sizes increasing.

It seems though most would drag themselves across the tarmac, suit in tatters, dragging bloody stumps where feet once were, selling the carpet out of the aircraft for pennies - before you would, dare I say it again - Look after the Pilot. I AM NOT AN ANIMAL................................. STELLLLAAAA

Icarus2001
21st Jul 2007, 09:45
Just treat me like the person who CREATES the revenue stream instead of seeing me as a cost to be reduced.
Companies seem to love having non-revenue creating staff but begrudge pilots/engineers/cabin crew who GENERATE the income.:\

bullamakanka
21st Jul 2007, 10:02
I dont think airline pilots do create the revenue stream. They fly the planes that create revenue yes. They are a very important part of the equation, as are many peolple in any aviation company, but not responsible for generating revenue. In an airline that is the job of sales/ marketing/brand management/yeild control etc.

The last time that I as a pilot directly created revenue was bringing in extra clients for a charter company. Before that it was doing the leg work to get extra pax for scenic flights.

Bulla

Icarus2001
21st Jul 2007, 10:09
In an airline that is the job of sales/ marketing/brand management/yeild control etc.
That would be YIELD...and if the marketing department or HR or sales vanished in a puff of smoke the world would not stop turning, passengers and freight would still make their destination...but if the pilots/cabin crew/engineers vanished in a puff of smoke...then guess what?
:rolleyes:

THE IRON MAIDEN
21st Jul 2007, 10:25
WOHA! That’s RADICAL THINKING THERE MY FRIEND.

Pilots are leaving…….. Let’s improve the conditions so they stay?

MY FRIEND, stick to flying aircraft. You'll NEVER make senior management with that sort of clear, common sense thinking!

bullamakanka
21st Jul 2007, 10:30
Yes it would be yield but hey who's worried about that hey.

Yeah the pax and freight would get there for the first few weeks, months or even years. However after a while the wheels would start to fall off and things would go pear shaped. The companies we work at are pretty complex and their ongoing prosperity is due a lot of work by a wide variety of staff. Some work in or on the planes, some dont. Any way each to their own.

I am off to the pub for some of James Squires finest. Have a good night!

Bulla

Capt Wally
22nd Jul 2007, 03:51
..............I've said in the past elsewhere on this forum that the only thing that the CEO's of any airline, any business for that matter are able to manipulate, get more for less and simply screw is the HUMAN element of a businesses bottom line....................all other costs (aviation related) such as airframe cost, maintenance, although that last one with QF is sliding backwards fast & the cost of fuel are rarely negotiable to a point where it's significant! Sure you need all of the above to turn a profit but what are we all here on this planet for at the end of the day???................simply to survive 'till the end, none of us had anything to do with coming here in the first place, but whilst we are here let's see who can be the biggest PR**K CEO.


.............Capt Wally :-)

bizzybody
23rd Jul 2007, 11:45
did we have a bad day at the office today did we???

loose the :mad: attitude and i might start treating you with the rspect you expect an deserve.

I would swap jobs any day with a whinging nagging pilot, and then maybe you will see just how hard it is to get the bums in the seats and generate the revenue


Bizz

(waiting for the Pprun bashing)

B A Lert
23rd Jul 2007, 12:07
I dont think airline pilots do create the revenue stream.

Spot on. The only stream pilots create is when they point Percy at the porcelain.:ok::ok:

bogdantheturnipboy
23rd Jul 2007, 12:15
bizzbody,
you are the one with the attitude.

And you are not even worth beating up.

An observation from my 35 years is that one of the most important things for a successful business is that you look after your staff. Not just in financial terms, but remember to treat them as humans; care about them, empower them.
Pretty bloody simple if you ask me!
When companies get this right, staff want to stay there and they become an incredible asset for the company. Aviation is sadly lacking in such companies.:(

meagain
23rd Jul 2007, 12:15
I do not frequent this forum very often however this subject begs to be commented on. Best to relate a situation I had just recently. I had to tell an airport manager what I have told a few other people over the years. He had no respect for pilots, not uncommon amongst the shiny arse brigade. Anyway, I pointed it out to him that if he happened to go home at that very moment it would not have much effect on our operation, the flight would still depart and passengers would be delivered and $$$$ collected. If I or my copilot was to go home though, everything would come to a sudden stop.
You see, an airline can operate without any particular class of employee for quite a time, especially the seat shiners, but there is ONE employee that they can't operate without and we know that is the PILOTS..
What you need to remember is that the only reason that you have a job is because we are out there flying your lovely airplanes, not the other way around. You have a job becaus of our skills. Show some respect:=

bizzybody
23rd Jul 2007, 12:25
lets just say that i have a very low staff turn over but thats us... other operators may be different.

I dont really associate myself with other operators because i think a lot of them are morons to be honest so i cant say for sure how it is at other organisations.

There are always going to be pilots out there for GA charter.

By the way. The offer is on the table... you wanna swap jobs??? ill be up for it but the minute i dont get to fly and the first time i get told by you that due to whatever reason i cant fly.... i come down on you so hard and ill start nagging you..and getting the attitude...


ya know f:mad: it, before i get fired up about it, there is no way a line pilot is ever going to understand how hard it is and what is involved in getting a bunch of planes in the air...

blueloo
23rd Jul 2007, 12:49
there is no way a line pilot is ever going to understand how hard it is and what is involved in getting a bunch of planes in the air...


I wonder what Paul McGuiness and Hudson Fysh would think of that.

B A Lert
23rd Jul 2007, 13:16
there is no way a line pilot is ever going to understand how hard it is and what is involved in getting a bunch of planes in the air.

Another true statement. They may think they know but in reality 99.9999% of them wouldn't have the foggiest - for proof, just read some of the ill informed stuff on forums like PPRUNE.

Hat, coat........door.:ok:

aintsaying
23rd Jul 2007, 15:57
Meagain,
You and your Co-pilot walk down the airbridge, get into your sheep-skin covered seats and:
1) The Technical log book does not have the "Release to Service" signed.
2) The refueler does not arrive and/or refuses to refuel your aircraft.
3) The toilet truck dosent arrive and your waste tanks are full and EICAS message "FWD/AFT WASTE TANK" message is on screen. (Long haul flight remember)
4) The tug driver refuses to show and/or no tug available for push back.
5) Baggage dosen't get loaded. (Or one extra bag and one less pax)

Pilots are not the only reason why aircraft don't fly. This is a fact.
Aviation is a team sport, we all have to earn respect first.

aintsaying.

nungry
23rd Jul 2007, 16:24
Airbus A380........ 2 Billion Dollars

Boeing 787..........1 Billion Dollars

Pilots Wages........What you talking bout Willis????

Some things, money can't buy................ for everything else, there's us!!!!!

The Butcher's Dog
24th Jul 2007, 00:20
Pilots “make it all happen” do they???? The burden must be extreme for you!:hmm:

Arrogance, misguided importance, indulged ego and a blinkered view of what happens around you would be the only mechanism that could support an ideology like that.

Maybe you should take a more global look at your organisation, “try walking a mile in someone else’s shoes” who works for your organisation to see what they do that enables you to have such a myopic view of your importance.:8

swab
24th Jul 2007, 02:28
I love you. No, I really love you. Yes I do, I really really love you. What? This cleaver? Oh that's for the beef and mutton. Now come on come here, there's a good boy. Now stop licking me, NO! Stop licking, and stop licking me in your favourite spot. No, I won't put the cleaver down, come there's a good puppy, come and kiss your daddy.

THREEBLADEPROP
24th Jul 2007, 02:34
With due respect I think most of us who did a GA apprenticeship would have more than a good idea of how hard it is to get a plane into the air. I remember having to load 400kg of freight refuel the aircraft, do the load and trim write the manifest do the flight plan etc etc all in 32 degree wet season heat to just log .5 flying hours and get payed 22K per year.

I think the ignorance comes from people who don't know what most of us have been through to get to our current positions. I've seen baggage handlers purposefully drop crew bags and laugh amongst each other. I've also seen a baggage handler drop freight with a fragile sticker on it, pick it up and slam it on the cart while laughing thinking he's some kind of hero in front of the flight attendants (and yes they thought he was a tosser). Now if we conducted ourself in such a manner, I wonder how airlines would run.

With the terms and conditions being degraded more and more, and the cost of becoming an airline pilot becoming more and more expensive, I think we will see many pilots leave to better paying jobs overseas. This will hopefully put some upward pressure on our wages. And to be honest I wouldn't want to walk a mile in the shoes of the guy who's job it is to keep our conditions down right now ;)

bizzybody
24th Jul 2007, 02:34
well said butch!!!!

The Butcher's Dog
24th Jul 2007, 04:21
Swab:
You telling fibs?:}

Three Blades:
We all have a tale to tell that gets us to the point we’re at – it isn’t easy. It’s not just a pilot thing, just thought it was a bit of a one sided earlier comment.

Those baggage dropping airlines probably don’t run well at all, they might appear to though.

Agreed, neither would I walk that particular mile. But neither would I be chasing him for the job either. Unfortunately many do, for what ever reason.:O

VH-Cheer Up
24th Jul 2007, 04:54
It's always a good idea to walk a mile in someone elses's shoes before you insult them.

That way, you're a mile away when they hear you.

And you've got their shoes.

VH-CU

GADRIVR
24th Jul 2007, 11:35
Gads.........when are pilots going to stop making silly comments such as the above (take what you will.....theres plenty there!!) and simply saysomething along the lines of..oh...I dont know....ah here we go....I'D LIKE TO HOUSE, CLOTH EDUCATE AND FEED MY FAMILY WITH A DECENT SALARY THAT REFLECTS THE TIME MONEY AND EFFORT THAT IV'E PUT IN UP TO THIS POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!......can it be any easier gentleman??
**** knows......every stupid prick in the company is doing it......why cant I???:E

meagain
25th Jul 2007, 10:22
:)aintsaying, Hey Buddy, I wasn't having a crack at the "workers" , rather the shiny arses who think they are indespensible.. sorry if I offended you

aintsaying
25th Jul 2007, 18:29
Meagain
No offence taken.
Just remember, Aviation is a team sport.
No matter what part of the airline operation you come from, you are still part of the team.
The more people that learn this and begin to understand this, the better.
For me its just hard enough knowing that I'm just a Kog in the machine.

Aintsaying

Charliethewonderdog
26th Jul 2007, 08:30
Well it's great to see that operators are reading this forum.

ALL WE WANT IS TO PAID CLOSE TO THE AVERAGE WAGE. Why do pilots have to live and struggle to support multi-million dollar companies??? The average wage is now around $55,000 dollars, a single engine casual pilot still struggles to get paid 20K, a FO for rex is on 43k, ......... WHY are we treated like second-rate workers????? Supply and demand maybe??? But look at the position we are in now, jobs galore but still no pay rise. WHY??????

The answer is simple; pilots have treated them selves and the profession they work in with disrespect. Basically excepting any conditions to build hours to reach the top of the tree. Instead of demanding certain conditions like the GA award they have worked below the poverty line, knowing if they don’t there will be 50 hungry dogs ready to pounce into their position.
In many ways I am embarrassed to be a member of this profession. I may cop criticism for that, but I look at other less glamorises jobs and see a united work force that is strong in keeping and gaining conditions.
Collectively, We are as weak as p…s.

So next time you see a pilot make a stance for better conditions try standing beside him and not behind him like 90% of the pilots in this game.:ugh::ugh:

Charliethewonderdog
26th Jul 2007, 16:07
COST OF CAPITAL
If a company with a similar risk profile can make more money - investors should place their money in that other company (ie no more airline)
ie Regional sells all assets and buys into an industry that provides a better return for the same level of risk.
To quote the former CEO of American Airlines (words to the effect): "Airlines are a great place to work.. but a horrible place to invest"
You should try check out the MSNBC documentary on a week in/with American Airlines.
LA to NY, full aircraft. The airline made $200 profit.
I coud give you examples of plenty of successful Airlines that PAY good money to ALL thier employees.
Maybe Airlines should start to ask the customer to pay more than the Taxi ride for a ticket? Maybe the CEO of Qantas shoudn't get paid anually what the entire pilot group wanted as a pay rise???
Maybe the airlines should have sufficent crews so flights aren't cancelled??
COST OF CAPITAL???? Why do train drivers get paid more??? Why do crane drivers get paid more??? It's got NOTHING to do with the Cost of Capital, but what we have sowly excepted in this COUNTRY. We are A JOKE.
A payrise a certain company pilots ask for was equal to .05 cents increase in fuel. And yes it was rejected, and the company I can assure you is paying alot more in fuel now.:E

aircraft
26th Jul 2007, 17:41
Charliethewonderdog said:
Why do pilots have to live and struggle to support multi-million dollar companies???The size or turnover of a company has nothing to do with how much it can afford to pay its employees.

WHY are we treated like second-rate workers?????What you meant to say there was "why aren't we paid more?".

I find it absolutely incredible that you and so many other posters to PPRUNE cannot see the answer when all you have to do is take a look around you. It is so obvious. Here is that answer:

There is very little money in aviation.

Commercial aviation is regarded as the world's "least most profitable business". This has been well known for over 50 years. When are you guys going to come to this realisation?

Charliethewonderdog
26th Jul 2007, 22:39
There is very little money in aviation.
Hmmm is that what macquarie thought??? Is that what Richard Branson thinks??? Is that why the Qantas share price is now out performing the stock exchange???? Is that why Cathay have doubled in size in the last ten years???? Is that because Aviation is one of the fastest growing Idustries in the word???
THERE IS PLENTY OF MONEY IN AVIATION.
You my friend are an absoulute TWIT. Infact if you have been given the responsibilty of manipulating and Aircraft God hep the poor souls on your "Aircraft".
Let me guess, you are 22 right?? everything paid for by mummy and daddy?? you are a ,I dare say it??? a c_____t
How about charging the public seat prices that are actually realistic? or supplying a product that the public are happy to pay for???

jack red
26th Jul 2007, 23:21
Charlie relax Mate. The Troll is back :ok:

aircraft
27th Jul 2007, 14:11
Charliethewonderdog,

Further to my statement "there is very little money in aviation", I quote the following passages from the excellent book "Qantas Flightpaths" by Geoffrey Thomas and Christine Forbes Smith. This is not the first time I have quoted these passages on PPRUNE:

It may be hard to believe but the airline industry is actually the world's least profitable industry. In 2000, the airlines had a good year with a turnover of $328 billion but a net profit of just $3.7 billion or just 1.1%. The industry's best year was in 1966, when it made 6.1% net profit, but in the past 30 years, most airline balance sheets have revealed losses of about 1.5% or profits of about the same order.

The following is the quote that is most relevent to my statement:
In fact, from 1947 to 2001 (54 years), the world scheduled airline industry has made a cumulative (and combined) net profit of $27 million. In comparison, Microsoft made a profit of $7.4 billion in 2001 alone.

One final quote, from C.R. Smith, President of American Airlines:
These days no one can make money on the goddam airline business. The economics represent sheer hell.

A Charliethewonderdog quote now:
How about charging the public seat prices that are actually realistic?It depends on what you mean by "realistic", but knowing you, this would probably mean something like double the current price.

With this sort of question, you would probably think that, whenever a country is a bit short of money, all it would need to do is print more.

If an aviation operator suddenly doubled their prices, the passengers would immediately cease flying with that operator. If there was another operator, they would fly with them instead. If there was no other operator, there soon would be (and their prices would be less than the original operators).

Surely that is all obvious to you.

Wizofoz
27th Jul 2007, 14:24
aircraft,

Free market guru that you are, you also realise that in order to make a profit, companies must charge enough for their products to cover their costs. These costs change according to market forces.

A good example is Fuel. Whatever the cost of fuel, airline have to pay it, or the jets don't fly.

Well, due to a shortage of supply, Pilots are becoming more expensive, and airlines unwilling to pay the higher price are finding themselves without another vital component of there aircraft- someone to fly it!

On the one hand, you try and give a value based assesment of what pilots should be paid, whilst then choosing to give us your delightfully simplistic views on the market economy...

Well, if airlines want pilots, they have to pay enough to attract them, or, as you say, someone else soon will.

Supply and demand buddy, supply and demand.

P.S sorry for feeding the troll guys!!!

aircraft
27th Jul 2007, 15:44
Wizofoz,

I don't think you actually said anything (other than the bleedingly obvious) in that post! Airlines need to pay more for pilots if pilots become scarce? Of course!

Wizofoz
27th Jul 2007, 16:48
SO....

We go from this..

What you meant to say there was "why aren't we paid more?".

I find it absolutely incredible that you and so many other posters to PPRUNE cannot see the answer when all you have to do is take a look around you. It is so obvious. Here is that answer:

There is very little money in aviation.


To this...

Airlines need to pay more for pilots if pilots become scarce? Of course!

Go wind people up on a gardening forum would you....:=

pilotdude09
27th Jul 2007, 17:06
Havent read the whole thread but....
If every pilot went on strike in Australia for better conditions what would happen? These operators including the majors might actually realise that pilots are a necessity not a bean wating to be counted. When i fly in the back i feel sorry for the guys up front on QF link etc for the crap condtions and money they get paid.
I guess though every pilot does it for the passion and you would have to, for the amount of shit alot of people go through!

Guess it can only get better?:} or is that wishful thinking?

White and Fluffy
27th Jul 2007, 17:36
There is very little money in aviation.




Aircraft,

Lets take a GA company running GA8 aircraft on scenics as an example. The aircraft costs somewhere between $150-250 an hour to run. The punters are being charged upto $200 per hour for a tour. The Aircraft seats 7 paying passenges so that means over $1000 per hour to cover non aircraft costs.

Don't tell me that is not a recipe to make money!

Therefore don't tell me that these operators can't pay a decent wage and hence this will flow onto airlines to pay a wage that betters this.

Pull your head in,
WAF

Andy_RR
27th Jul 2007, 18:46
Lets take a GA company running GA8 aircraft on scenics as an example. The aircraft costs somewhere between $150-250 an hour to run...

...The Aircraft seats 7 paying passenges

Show me where you can rent an eight-seater aircraft for $250/hr and I'll show you someone who's losing money hand over fist.

slice
27th Jul 2007, 21:06
That $150-$250 p/h would be direct operating costs only. The reason you can't rent a six-seater for that is all the other things like overheads, depreciation, carriers' liability insurance etc. etc.

Lodown
27th Jul 2007, 21:31
Oh geez! I was going to apply for Geoff Dixon's job, but I just read that

There is very little money in aviation.

Bugger that then! I'm not working for peanuts!

Andy_RR
27th Jul 2007, 22:03
Anyone who's only looking at direct operating costs has already proved their commercial genius! :ugh:

If it is a money printing machine that some people think, why can't we fly White and Fluffy Airlines?

Chris Higgins
27th Jul 2007, 22:27
The airline schedule just got cut in Pittsburgh today; the reason? They can't find pilots to fly for the regional airlines!!

This is the first time I've actually seen that as a reason to reduce an airline schedule.

geeup
27th Jul 2007, 22:47
White Fluffy is on the money.....:ok:

Do the numbers yourself Andy_RR.:=

Let me give you a hand :8

207 or GA8 for example 7-8 seaters going on a scenic flight let say the bungles $250/head approx $1750 - $2000 for a 2 hour flight therefore around $875-$1000/hr. :eek:

Not to shabby for a clapped out busted ar$e 207 with 20,000hrs TT all done in a harsh climate.

And yet they pay pilots $20,000 a year for 6 days a week???:ouch:

So Andy which part doesnt make sense? Or is White Fluffy making a valid point?

bizzybody
28th Jul 2007, 00:08
WOW there are some fantastic comments getting made here!!!!:D
I agree with Aircraft in most cases, there is LITTLE money to be made in a GA operation. You make a bit bu nothing to get too excited about..

Lets see a baron costs ABOUT 300 per hour.

Aerostar 601P cost about 450 per hour.

Cessna 340 say about 400 per hour. (these are all rough figures)

Out of that you need to pay the fuel and pilot wages.

Lets say you gets say you do about 20 hours per week on average.

O crap the autopilot dies in the Baron. Need a new S-Tec $15,000 (anyone that puts in a used autopilot out of a wreck or anything like that is a idiot)

Or

Heater / Aircon dies in the 340 because of age of it and to find it has a crack in the canister. could overhaul but it is near its calender life. New heater / air con unit. $20,000. W do need the heater but at 20,000 its gunna get a bit hot up there without aircon. No air circulating around)

(jesus i hope the pressurisation is still working ok, and isnt going to need anything done to it)

(not looking good so far)

100 houly on the Baron in 4 weeks time...nothing major

Engine 1 on the 601P has just run out of hours and has gone on condition.

There is (up to) 70K just for that. then the extra cost of running rich for the first few hours.

2 of the above examples are real and i have had them first hand. So as you can see the short term cash flow in aviation is not overlly bad but at anytime things on aircraft just pop up (or off)

there is a site out there (its a U.S. site) for charter operators to kind of work together and sell dead legs and so on. On there, are over 100 operators in Australia with what aircraft they have and what they charge the aircraft out for. Operators are restricted to offering their aircraft out for the same price or less than the competitor.

The Aircraft seats 7 paying passenges so that means over $1000 per hour to cover non aircraft costs.
Thats IF you get a full plane

A lot of you have got some great thoughts but there are many additioinal costs involved and so on.

If you think you can do it and pay better with better conditions, cheaper aircraft, more flights etc etc, i encourage you to apply for your own AOC, put your own nuts on the line and get some aircraft and do it yourself. If you cant afford to wait the 10 months and 13k for your own AOC then try and buy a company that has one that is for sale. There are PLENTY out there for sale at the moment. If you cant afford aircraft, try and crosshire them and then good luck to you trying to make money that way. You all make it sound so easy.

Bizz

DirtyLaundry
28th Jul 2007, 00:24
..You dont make money in GA if u run a dodgy operation and every one knows it!!!!

I worked for a company once (G.A) that run 3 Islanders and 2 Aerocommanders and they were pulling on average around $8000 U.S a day

I was clearing around 500 U.S a week with free accomodation and transport!!!

Your talking floppycock

geeup
28th Jul 2007, 00:32
bizzybody,

You raise some very valid points however i was not implying that its:

"The Aircraft seats 7 paying passenges so that means over $1000 per hour to cover non aircraft costs."

However the overall return per hour equates to approx. $1000/hr.

Now i can even shoot my own discussion down from this point....

1) the aircarft is not always full
2) scenics are seasonal
etc, etc, etc.

The point i was raising is some operates have had it to good for to long with the pilot as the lowest consideration, i would go as far as to call it profiteering.

In the example the price of the "Bungle Scenic" has gone up and up over the last 10 years however the pilot wages has remained the same.:{

bizzybody
28th Jul 2007, 00:41
..You dont make money in GA if u run a dodgy operation and every one knows it!!!!

if you are emplying that i run a dodgy operation i will pay for your airfare from where ever you live (Antarctica by the sounds of it) to NSW and show you. I encourage you to step out from behind this forum and make your presence known to me......you can do your own dirty washing while you are here though.

Im guessing it was far north QLD you were working, while i cant 100% not believe you about the 8000 US for day there are things i would like to know... what is a line pilot doing knowing all the financials of the company.....
Was the company RPT
Why in U.S. Dollars
Was the company actually Australian?


Yes Scenics are vey seasonal. I see your point though and as i have said before there are operators out there that will pay more than the award (like us and others) but the bad operators make the whole industry look bad

geeup
28th Jul 2007, 00:56
bizzybody im not having a go at you or your operation perhaps DirtyLaundry is.
Im just interested in the costing/breakdowns in aviation and it is my opinion that EVERYONE including line pilots particularly in GA should have a appreciation for the financial cost incoming and out goings of there operation! How else are we expected to run more effeciantly?????
Such as the cost of a new ac unit or the price of the PT6 or the amount of down time for a hot section etc.

Dont most operator talk in USD as thats what the price of spares are??

DirtyLaundry
28th Jul 2007, 01:05
Im not having a go at anyone in particular!!! I didnt even know you were running an operation BIZZYBODY!!!!

If you are running an operation and struggling then its your fault not the pilots!!!!

Im sick of people blaming pilots for everything!!!!!

But obviously you know so much ABOUT EVERYTHING!!!

Typical GA operator attitude!!!

But I ask you this...Why run a GA operation in NSW if you cant even pay pilots what their worth?? Are you struggling to make ends meet ..by the sounds of things?? Do you actually rely in paying 25,000 a year to pilots to make an operation work?? Or make your annual salary over 400K ??

I know these figures because I was friends with everyone in the company.

None of what you said is correct in your previous post!!! As far as im concerned you can keep dreaming mate

coaldemon
28th Jul 2007, 01:09
When the operators talk in USD, they are talking about costs not revenue. Any operator that tries to use USD on Australia as their costs/revenue reference is going to drive their accountant nuts :}

bizzybody
28th Jul 2007, 01:19
I have never said that operators (including me) are just breaking even. Of course we make profit otherwise i would not be in business.

Since you seem to know how the insides of an operation work, you must have your own AOC and own aircraft, if not... well.....

Why dont you give us all your version of how an operation IS run.Things to include

Pilot Wages
Admin Staff wages
Fuel / Oil
Pilot Allowances
Landing fees
Parking fees.
UNSHEDULED MAINTENANCE!!!!
Regular maintenance
Cost of aircraft
AOC application costs.
AOC ammendment costs
Accounting fees
Legal fee's
Business loan payments
Rent / lease on the facilities
Phone bill / Internet
Your own wage (because even directors have personal obligations like Phone Power etc)
Maintenance of company equipment
Pilot down time
Aircraft down time


Mate the list goes on. Now i can pradict that you are going to dismiss everything here so i may as well beat you to it...... These are all things you will need to address and consider in your operation. By the way,,,, i always wanted to know what it was like to flog a dead horse..... guess now i know

jack red
28th Jul 2007, 01:23
aircraft aka Mr Gullible.

Quoting from "Qantas Flightpaths" aka "How can we discourage new start airlines from starting up and eating into our huge profits?" aka "How do we keep flight crew from demanding better wages and conditions ?" is very naive.

Keep trolling Bro' :ok:

DirtyLaundry
28th Jul 2007, 01:28
Dont talk to me like I know nothing about what goes on dude!!

U have ur own issues to deal with as an almighty AOC holder. Sounds like u need to get out of aviation ASAP !!!!!!!!!!

That advice is for free. YOU sir sound like u need it, flogging around in a dead horse :{

bizzybody
28th Jul 2007, 01:29
good comeback :ok:

DirtyLaundry
28th Jul 2007, 01:34
You love it dont you :}

Zhaadum
28th Jul 2007, 07:57
This thread is pointless...:confused:

Z.:bored:

aircraft
28th Jul 2007, 12:21
jack red said:
Quoting from "Qantas Flightpaths" aka "How can we discourage new start airlines from starting up and eating into our huge profits?" aka "How do we keep flight crew from demanding better wages and conditions ?" is very naive.
New start airlines look to PPRUNE postings when considering starting up do they? Flight crew make their decisions on whether to pursue better conditions on the strength of others PPRUNE postings do they? As if.

Is Geoffrey Thomas similarly naive?

roamingwolf
28th Jul 2007, 12:31
aircraft

a while back you said that the reasons some crew are paid little is because there is little profit in aviation.

so mate how do you explain qf's profit and dixons pay packet and that apa wanted to borrow so much dough to buy the rat?

aircraft
28th Jul 2007, 12:34
bizzybody,

Thank you for taking the trouble to provide an important perspective that is usually absent from these discussions in this forum.

Rest assured that there are some pilots out here that do appreciate the economic difficulties faced by operators - we seem to be very few and far between, but we are here.

It is my belief that all commercial pilots, as part of their training course, should undergo a short course on the economics of commercial aviation. Such a course would result in better relations between pilot and management, less stress all round and an ultimately better industry.

jack red
28th Jul 2007, 13:13
Troll, baby, troll :E

aircraft
28th Jul 2007, 13:14
roamingwolf,

Just because an airline makes a good profit in one year (or for several years in a row) does not mean it can pay its employees more. Look again at those passages I quoted from "Qantas Flightpaths" and you will see that, averaged out over time, profits are very thin indeed.

If you say that, on average, there have been 500 commercial operators per year since 1947, then each of those operators have averaged $1,000 profit per year over the 54 years since then. Those are desperately thin profits. Of course, in some years, some airlines would have achieved profits that were quite respectable.

But only a recklessly incompetent management would voluntarily increase their fixed costs on the strength of a few years' good profits alone. To do this may not be so bad in some other industry/business, but we should certainly be hoping it does not happen in our industry.

Dixon's pay packet is insignificant in the scheme of things. If all their managers were on that level of remuneration it would not be insignificant however!

APA saw an excellent business opportunity. To continue the real estate analogy, they saw a house worth about $700K but valued at $350K. They wanted to buy it, then do something with it. But the value of a company, whether real or potential, has very little bearing on how much it can afford to pay its staff.

swab
28th Jul 2007, 13:18
Are you the full aircraft, or just the wingnut?
Sheesh

neville_nobody
28th Jul 2007, 16:08
The guy earned 5.3 Million for the 06 Financial year, if that's insignificant what would you describe as a significant salary?

But only a recklessly incompetent management would voluntarily increase their fixed costs on the strength of a few years' good profits alone. To do this may not be so bad in some other industry/business, but we should certainly be hoping it does not happen in our industry.

Maybe so but why then is the QF CEO one of the highest paid in Australia? Why do managers justify pay rises by increases in profit the pilot's can't?

Name another industry who compared to pilots have more responsibilty and can destroy a company's reputation by one mistake.

Why do airline managers always play the "we need to pay top dollar to keep our senior management", yet they compare their pilots to salaries paid in china whilst saying their flight crew are to expensive? Why don't they compare Chinese managers salaries to the Australian ones and then talk about comparisons? When comparing these chinese salaries why don't they ever factor in the cost of training. (Chinese airlines spend millions on ab initio pilot training, QF spends 0)

At the end of the day airlines pay pilots what they can get away with. Unfortunately we are at a time where they are going to have to pay more whether they like it or not. They cannot fight simple economics much longer as there is a worldwide pilot shortage so if they don't increase the T & C they will be parking aeroplanes.

lowerlobe
28th Jul 2007, 22:34
aircraft..As I said before you do not answer questions and when forced to twist the facts to try and fit the warped model that you spruik.

Roamingwolf asked you 3 questions which as usual you conveniently manipulated like some politician during an election.

First..We are talking our company not others..SO EXPLAIN THE HUGE PROFIT..even during times of difficulty such as SARS.

EXPLAIN the reluctance to give the market accurate profit forecasts such as during the debacle known as the takeover bid.

EXPLAIN the supposed huge cash reserves.

Second...Darths pay packet and of others ARE immense.In the recent past he gave himself a 167% pay rise one one instance alone.His and most of upper maagements pay are huge yet they continually slash others within the company.

Third and this is typical of your myopic view of life.The takeover group saw a HUGE business oportunity because it's market value was depressed by someone we all know.

But it was an offer of 545,000 not 350,000 as you incorrectly put it.The property's owners were told by THEIR financial advisors to take that offer and not have MENTAL problems.

The owners realised that they were being misled by the financial advisors and rejected the offer.

The result is that the value did not collapse as the advisors said it would.In fact the value HAS increased and will do so again if more buyers turn up.

The financial advisors were supposed to be working for the property owners BUT were working with the potential buyers and were going to make a HUGE windfall if the sale went through.

NOW myopic one,why would a group of astute buyers be willing to borrow most of the money required if they did not KNOW the full potential of the property.

We are not talking thousands of dollars,it would be in the billions here and they would have expected to make a substantial profit on their investment.

SO explain your comment that there is "NO MONEY IN AVIATION"

aircraft, you are a wing short of an aircraft

DirtyLaundry
28th Jul 2007, 23:08
Like I said.... Floppy cock!!!

Talk to us like we have no idea!!!

Trying to justify your position ol mate?? Times are a changing and the position that u so dearly love as a (ppl) manager is not working no more!!!!!!!!

That advice is free too ... add that to your total revenue and youlll see it actually works in the long term :eek:

bizzybody
28th Jul 2007, 23:35
Dirty do you actually work for an airline ???
just questioning because you have made posts referring to Us in real airlines and so on but yet you ask where you can do a 737 endorsement.....interesting..

I think an interesting point is that some people are talking about commercial airlines I.e Qantas.Well they are going to make millions i mean look at them. For starters they are a public company so there is a massive cash injection when they first went public so they can use that cash to expand and so on......I dont know what they pay their pilots but im sure it would be a decent amount. Could be wrong.

Other people are talking about the GA operators.... Yes there is little money to be made in a GA operation....

This is never going to be a resolved thread because there are 2 arguments going....so i think it should now be closed.

lowerlobe
29th Jul 2007, 00:33
bizzybody...Are you telling us that you run an airline op in GA and do not know what the commercial airlines apy their pilots and crew?

Your statement.. "Qantas.Well they are going to make millions i mean look at them. For starters they are a public company so there is a massive cash injection when they first went public so they can use that cash to expand and so on......I dont know what they pay their pilots but im sure it would be a decent amount. Could be wrong"...

For a start there are and have been a number of public company's that have gone bust.Simply to say that because they have shareholders money will mean that will make millions shows me that I doubt that you are in business or run a GA outfit.You would have to be the only operator in GA that does not know what the airlines pay and that is another nail in your credibility coffin.There is not a GA pilot that does not know what the airlines pay because that is their final goal.

It looks as though you are either aircraft with another user id or another member of the young Libs branch with aircraft with no business or real life experience....

bizzybody
29th Jul 2007, 00:38
Im sorry i dont spend more time in teh day looking upwhat airlies pay their staff..

I think this has gone on long enough because now are now showing out maturity with name calling:ok:

Another Id??? ya right you caught me out sorry :ugh::mad:

Yes i do run a Charter operation.

The amount of money that was made in the past was greater than it is now.

Do you run a Charter operation???

The offer is still on the table regarding you all coming down and having a look. If you think i am running a dodgy operation at least do me pleasure of not hiding behind this forum and send me your contact details so we can talk about it in person shall we.:zzz:

bullamakanka
29th Jul 2007, 11:32
Bizzybody,

Mate many things you say relitave to GA ops are very true. Unfortunately there are a few out there who just dont get it. Usually through lack of exposure / education / life experiance / or some times its just their attitude. They dont want to understand it.
They will just see what the punters pay, subtract their own wage,the cost of fuel, plus a few other costs and assume the rest is for the operators pocket.

GA is a hard scene to make a regular, consistant dollar in. Any one who tries to tell you otherwise has never tried to do it, thus they are not qualified to have an opinion on it!

Bulla...

Charliethewonderdog
29th Jul 2007, 11:58
Mate many things you say relitave to GA ops are very true. Unfortunately there are a few out there who just dont get it. Usually through lack of exposure / education / life experiance / or some times its just their attitude. They dont want to understand it.
They will just see what the punters pay, subtract their own wage,the cost of fuel, plus a few other costs and assume the rest is for the operators pocket.

GA is a hard scene to make a regular, consistant dollar in. Any one who tries to tell you otherwise has never tried to do it, thus they are not qualified to have an opinion on it!

Bulla...

Well the PUNTER isn't paying enough. Even with my exposure/ education / life experience/ and attitude I can see that, if your company can not retain employees than you aren't paying enough, and to cover this cost the PUNTER HAS TO PAY simple..... It's not the pilots fault that D--k H--D Ga operators consistantly under cut each other and run companies on a shoe string.

If the GA scene is SO hard GET OUT, and leave it the companies that can operate properly.
So I'm not allowed to have an opinion because I've never tried??? Have you, I bet you failed with your attitude.

Bizzy... JUST make the customer PAY. SIMPLE

aircraft
29th Jul 2007, 13:28
Charliethewonderdog said:
Bizzy... JUST make the customer PAY. SIMPLE
If it were that simple, they would, so it can't be that simple.

Generally speaking, if an operator puts his prices up, his customers will go to the opposition instead. If there is no opposition for them to go to, well there soon will be, and that opposition will be cheaper.

I did point this out to you in another thread. I think you are beginning to grasp this reality as you made this comment:

It's not the pilots fault that D--k H--D Ga operators consistantly under cut each other and run companies on a shoe string.They run to a shoe string budget because they have no choice, but when it comes to the GA operators undercutting each other, well now you are on to something!

These GA operators are just exercising their free market right to undertake business ventures. And thank god they do. How many of us got our first flying job with one of them? If you have a problem with them, then you have a problem with free market commerce.

You want the "d--k h--d" ones to stay out, presumably, but just how does an aspiring aviation entrepreneur identify himself as being in that category?

aircraft
29th Jul 2007, 14:04
neville_nobody,
... why then is the QF CEO one of the highest paid in Australia? Why do managers justify pay rises by increases in profit the pilot's can't?I happen to think GD is worth every cent. Most of the shareholders do too. In time, I'm sure that you and most of the bitter will come to feel the same way.

Executives tend to be remunerated to different arrangements than pilots, but those arrangements are approved by the shareholders. You could, in theory, come to an arrangement with your employer where some of your remuneration was based on profit, but you probably wouldn't actually want to do that, as there is always uncertainty with regards profit (especially in the airline business).

Name another industry who compared to pilots have more responsibilty and can destroy a company's reputation by one mistake.Every single industry. If a business has a good reputation, then there will be some people employed by that business that can destroy that reputation by making one mistake. The "some people" could be 1 or 2, in the case of a small business, or hundreds, in the case of larger businesses.

At the end of the day airlines pay pilots what they can get away with.All businesses, across all industries, do this - that is one of those little economic realities.

... so if they don't increase the T & C they will be parking aeroplanes.A little question for you now - where is the money to fund the increase to T&Cs going to come from? There is only one answer to this question; I know the answer - how many others do?

Whiskey Oscar Golf
29th Jul 2007, 14:41
Sorry Racefans for sticking my big ethnic nose into this rather long winded amusing thread, but I just couldn't help it.

Aircarft for a troll you're pretty interesting, are you really 22? Not that age has much to do with intelligence, but you do seem to spout the sort of economics theory that comes from management 101. You may read a bit but nothing goes past being shafted a few times to take off those book learned blinkers. Or are you supping from the silver spoon and not destined to see your hard work get ignored?

Some parts of GA have always been short of a good dollar, but others are chock full of them. I worked in a GA industry that went through a few lean years and we had to wear a drop in dollars. Then when things got good we asked and got more, now I must say I'm not a pilot and my skillset was pretty rare. Our pilots did get more and moved on to grander things quicker when the going got better.

As for airlines, and for a young fella this quote is a goodun, "between the idea and the reality falls the shadow". If the airline industry is so hard up for a dollar why are we seeing such expansion? Why does it seem to be such a growing industry?

Who will pay for an increase in T&C's, either the shareholders or the punters. That or you don't fly.You either drop quality which affects revenue or you pay more and are equal to world rates. If not, your employees go. Same as engineers or anyone else that helps keep the show in the air.

neville_nobody
29th Jul 2007, 16:11
Every single industry. If a business has a good reputation, then there will be some people employed by that business that can destroy that reputation by making one mistake. The "some people" could be 1 or 2, in the case of a small business, or hundreds, in the case of larger businesses.

Mate that is bollocks. If I go to Woolworths, and they screw up my bill completly, Woolworths doesn't wind up on the front page of every newspaper in the world.

Same if I buy a car and I'm told it does certain things yet I find that it doesn't, all they get is a disgruntled cutsomer. Yet look at the QF accident in BKK one mistake and what a mess resulted.

Where is the money going to come from? As said before probably from profit, if they don't want to ramp up the ticket costs. However if you look at the extra cost of a 747 crew on a per flight hour basis per pax the increase is not very large.

Alternately we could outsource the CEO to someone in China, that should save a few million a year.

lowerlobe
29th Jul 2007, 20:52
Let's try another tack with the professor!

Aircraft...Why don't you tell us your history and experience from which you spout these uninformed and unrealistic theories?

Chocks Away
30th Jul 2007, 10:09
:ugh:
Some comments have to be responded to here but the topics moving quickly!

Lets keep it simple for those ignorant amoungst us, with little or no knowledge of the Industry, history or the food chain here...

3 things needed for a flight:
1) Aircraft
2) Fuel
3) Flight Crew to operate it (engineering included)

Indeed ALL other hangers-on are ancillary.

YES, it IS the flight crew who push the show along... get the message out when services haven't been provided (regular occurance now!) ...decide whether to stay or go...try and meet slots, speed up, slow down to keep the network because (AND this is always forgotten nowdays) IT IS THE CAPTAIN WHOS ASS IS ON THE LINE and who signs everything!
There is no respect for the Captain anymore these days and what the crew do. Alot of "silver tails" need a good slap around the chops to realise who are actually making a plane fly!

(off my soap box now):ok:

KaptinZZ
30th Jul 2007, 23:41
I think bullamakanka should change his moniker to bullamaWanka!!

Don't undervalue or degrade yourself son. It sounds to me that you're suffering the Stockholm Syndrome, sympathizing with your tormentors, your employer.

It is YOU as the pilot who generates the revenue. No pilot, no fly, no cash. Managers, sales managers, etc., we can do without, pilots we cannot do without.

404 Titan
31st Jul 2007, 00:43
I think some people need a reality check. While I agree there will always be some hangers on in all companies, most employees play a vital role in the survival of that organisation. Let me break it down for those that are doubters:

Pilots → Can save an airline a huge amount in operating costs.
→ No pilots → no airline → aircraft parked against the fence.
Engineers → Keep aircraft in the air.
→ No engineers → aircraft break down → No airline.
Cabin Crew → Provide a regulatory requirement for the safety of Pax and present a service image to the public.
→ No cabin crew → no airline.
Ground Staff → Organise pax and baggage and freight onto the aircraft.
→ No ground staff → turn around times become uneconomical → no
Airline.
Sales staff → Sell the tickets to those very pax that are boarded on the aircraft by ground staff, looked after by the cabin crew, flown safely and efficiently by the pilots on aircraft maintained by the engineers.

Etc etc etc etc. I’m sure most of you get the picture?

I could go on forever. An airline is made up of many pieces, some big some small. All though are vital in its operation. Remove any one piece and the airline will grind to a halt eventually.

bullamakanka
31st Jul 2007, 04:37
Kaptin ZZ

There is no need to resort to name calling mate, what does that achive? I have a different view to yours, so what. I think the system works as titan 404 has stated. By alot of different parties all working together towards a common goal. You think otherwise.

To say "no pilot, no fly, no cash" is true, but its a very simplistic and imediate view of how a company creates revenue. Take away all those skill sets that you belive are not required and things wont keep going for long. Can you give us the name of an airline that does not have these? Do you think many airlnes would have a gross number of unneeded hangers on? Sure there is some dead wood in all organisations I dont deny that, but at the end of the day many people have an important part to play in the creation of revenue.


Bulla

KaptinZZ
31st Jul 2007, 04:53
You're quite right bullamakanka; my apology.

Thre just doesn't seem to be any shortage of deadwood in airlines though, and they're constantly trying to screw the pilots but leave the real dead wood alone.

It becomes frustrating at times, and I'm glad I've retired to SE Asia.

bizzybody
31st Jul 2007, 05:00
someone said it before and i think it is the smartest thing anyone has said on here.

For a compnay to operate properly, it needs all compnents. Take out accounts staff, cabin crew, ground crew etc, just sticking to the basics for the purpose of te conversation
Pilots = fly the planes
Engineers = fixes them
Chief Pilot. = Maintains compliance
Director CEO. = Manages accounts / funding etc. / marketing etc etc..

I had a massive chat with CASA the other day about something and we got onto the subject to the fact that it is the pilots at the end of the day that have their nuts on the line when it comes to compliance issues..weight balance, weather, etc etc. For that there needs to be a mutual respect between managers and pilot staff.

Having said that it is the director / ceo with his or her nuts on the line when it comes to funding, business planning, aircraft etc etc.

Look, with this topis we are going to have to agree to disagree because we are never going to come to a suitable answer for everyone.

As i said there is a need for mutual respect with everyone on the staff.

If it was sooooooooo easy for someone to start up a new operation and if people on here think it is so easy then whay arnt their more operators because with some of the thoughts on this forum....... why are these people flying for someone else when they can so obviously do a better job at running an operation and make millions


Bizz

(apparent dodgy operator)