Pilot shortage affecting flight safety, analysts say

[a380megacamel]

Associated Press
Jul. 18, 2007 10:01 AM
BRUSSELS, Belgium - As the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 approached Yogyakarta's main airport, veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing.

Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed, careened into a rice paddy and caught fire - killing 21 people. Initial findings from the probe into the March 7 crash suggest a misunderstanding between the pilot and his first officer may have contributed to the crash.

Analysts say such apparent miscues are a troubling sign that a worldwide shortage of experienced pilots is starting to affect flight safety.
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The shortage is the result of extraordinary air traffic growth in the Persian Gulf, China and India; the rise of lucrative low-cost carriers in Europe and Asia; and the sustained recovery of the U.S. airlines from the industry recession caused by the Sept. 11 attacks.

"There is a giant sucking sound, luring pilots to rapidly expanding airlines such as Emirates and Qatar and the budget carriers," said William Voss, head of the Flight Safety Foundation. When experienced pilots leave developing countries in Asia and Africa for the Gulf, those countries must hire replacements fresh out of flight school, he said.

And poaching of pilots and mechanics is expected to intensify as Asian markets like China and India burgeon.

Around Asia, flyers from national airlines such as Garuda have deserted for better paying jobs with new and successful budget carriers, such as Malaysia's AirAsia. In Europe, Belgium's largest carrier Brussels Airlines recently complained of losing an average of 10 captains a month to pilot-hungry airlines in the Gulf, and have requested government intervention.

In the United States, where thousands of veterans were laid off after Sept. 11 and left the industry, regional carriers have been giving jobs to first officers with considerably less experience than would have been required 15 years ago.

At some airlines, such as Northwest Airlines, pilot shortages have led to record-breaking flight cancellations in recent months. In the last full week of June, it canceled about 1,200 flights, or about 12 percent of its flight schedule, because it could not provide sufficient pilots to replace those who were grounded after reaching maximum allowed hours.

After that, the airline said it would continue recalling all of its furloughed pilots and hire additional pilots.

Figures released by International Air Transport Association show that global air travel will likely grow 4 to 5 percent a year over the next decade, though the aviation boom in India and China is expected to exceed 7 percent.

The Persian Gulf, the fastest growing region for both passengers and cargo, registered growth of 15.4 and 16.1 percent respectively in 2006. Reflecting this expansion, in the first half of this year Boeing and Airbus received a joint total of 1,100 new orders.

"Airlines such as Emirates, Qatar or Etihad are getting a new Airbus 330 or Boeing 777 each month, which means they also need to take in pilots at a phenomenal rate," said Gideon Ewers, a spokesman for the London-based, 105,000-member International Association of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA).

India and China alone will need about 4,000 new pilots a year to cope with their growth - the same number now employed by Germany's Lufthansa. Airlines need 30 highly trained pilots available on average for each long-haul aircraft in their fleet, or 10 to 18 for short-haul planes.

Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of classroom training and 50 to 60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License. It takes another 250 hours flying plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which allows the pilot to fly on instruments, rather than only visually, and on airliners with more than one engine. A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet.

According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License.

Paradoxically, flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.

In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations - including the United States - are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years.

"It makes no sense to force experienced, qualified and healthy pilots to retire while airlines are scrambling to fill those seats," Voss said.

Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains. But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance.

"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."

The London-based International Airline Passengers Association said in a statement it cannot tolerate lowering safety standards and is campaigning for global safety regulation so all airlines meet the same criteria.

The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut - the Multi-Crew Pilot License - where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries.

Some pilots' associations have expressed concern that such quick-fix training schemes, where candidates don't accrue any solo flying, ignore the broader safety issues.

"Although all airline pilots are trained to the same standards ... there are certain intangibles that only come from experience," said Patrick Smith, a U.S.-based airline pilot and aviation writer. "The idea of some kid flying a 737 around Africa with 300 hours of total time is a bit scary."

[Dan Winterland]

Beat me to it! I was just about to post the article.

However, the Garuda incident is not a good example as it appears it was the first officer who was telling the 'veteran captain' to go around from an unstable approach, but the captain ignored him.

I'm not sure if lower houred first officers is the issue. Low hour first officers have been getting jet jobs for years, the quality of the training is more of an issue. And using the MPL as a case is irrelevant and the MPL pilot will have had some very valid training.

To me, this articel speaks more about the pilot shortage which is already here and is set to get much much bigger.

[CaptKremin]

And yet pay rates remain depressed below 2000 levels.

Something just doesn't add up.

[Ace Rimmer]

Mebbe worth checking out this for IFALPA's MPL position....

http://www.ifalpa.org/positionstatements/07POS01%20-%20Multi%20Crew%20Licence%20(MPL).pdf

[Vee One...Rotate]

Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of classroom training and 50 to 60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License. It takes another 250 hours flying plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which allows the pilot to fly on instruments, rather than only visually, and on airliners with more than one engine. A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet.


What a pile of tripe.

V1R

[RoyHudd]

After paying for licences, type rating and now A320/B737 Line Training.

Long way from the natural selection of instructing, air taxi, night freight route.

Just a thought.

[sidtheesexist]

V interesting article - if I were a wannabee, I'd be loving the read!

Brussels Airlines - presumably, if they paid a decent wage they wouldn't be losing 'ten captains a month' - supply and demand and all that stuff..........

The comment from the US aviation writer about certain '...intangibles only coming with experience' is IMHO a very perceptive comment!! Wait for the MPL/MCPL advocates to come and try to demolish this opinion/assertion!!

The IFALPA article is revealing if you read between the lines - the fact that they are articulating potential problems with the product of the MPL/MCPL process is significant........

[PK-KAR]

So, the case of GA200 is an example of pilot shortage because a rookie pilot reminded the veteran captain (whose behaviour at that day is out of character) to save the day but the captain decided to continue and end up in a tragedy?
*bangs head on table*

Sure it's a concern, but bloody hell, reword that damn example to make it revant! Geezzzz....

PK-KAR

[ADFS]

I propose the following:

Pilots are trained cost free by interested airline
Pilots are alotted a Career Total of Fight Time from ab initio to end of career
When the CTFT is reached the pilot is retired with benefits, to be established, but based on productivity and profit sharing etc
For example: I begin at age 22....hired and trained. My CTFT is, say, 18,000 hours. Flying 800 productive hours per year should come to about 21 years or so
At 41 or thereabouts I can retire with full benefits, young pilots take my place, and i can spend time with my kids and wife at home that would be normal and probably reduce divorce and uncontrollable kids.....

[fireflybob]

I propose the following:-

That the airlines set up a centre of excellence for training future pilots providing an integrated course of ground, flying and simulator training.

Funny - seem to remember there was a place called the College of Air Training, Hamble which was set up to do precisely that?

[P.Pilcher]

I seem to remember the same situation around 1998 - claims of inexperienced pilots being promoted too early and commentators then whingeing on about safty standards! The only difference then was that airlines were prepared for your type rating training against a bond. They expect you to pay for that as well out of your own pocket today.

P.P.

[GMDS]

Let’s stop barking up the non-existing tree, it’s embarrassing and naïve……….
The world’s population wants air travel and wants to travel for peanuts. The world wide industry needs air travel and it wants it cheap, to maximize profits. Each country wants its citizens and industry to be happy, so they encourage the regulators to “help” the national airline industry to satisfy this demand. To reduce cost, the first measure is generally to increase unit numbers, in this case airplanes. The airlines start massive buying and bargain manufacturers into cut throat price cuttings, which are then generously covered by taxpayer’s money, with compliments of the government to the home industry (thanks for the campaign contribution, by the way). Then they work their existing flight staff to the utmost limit, train huge numbers of new ones with minimum syllabi, all with the incompetent consent of local regulators who are way out of their league, very often un-promoted and unhappy ex-airline clerks. The government couldn’t care less, everybody’s happy, except maybe some airline employees representations, who are most probably the only ones seeing the whole picture and able expose this scam. But their concern would implicate more and proper training/regulation, this means more cost, so discredit them and dump it. The press is of no help either. They need headlines, so why support the right thing, namely more safety? It would bar them from scoops and sensational pictures.
“Safety” has become a word as hollow as “democracy”. But because the chances of being victim of the perversion of either of these terms are slim, nobody gives a toss.

[BOAC]

GMDS - I really cannot fault that!

[00seven]

Royhudd,

Exactly the point I was trying to make on another thread.........

People making job changes in their late 20's & 30's, then responding to glossy brochures and 'buying' themselves an 737 job with ****ty companies like Ryanair. There is no skill in that method. It can hardly be called an achievement to pay for line training!!

We can take comfort in the fact that those who buy themselves a job are rarely the kind of pilot real airlines hire. Luckily we don't often have to work with the likes of these people, but rather sit next to someone who may be ex airforce, or done the hard yards through GA.

[P.Pilcher]

I regret to say it, but the only thing that will really get the regulators to sit up, take notice and alter the current status quo is a large airline "incident" with major loss of life, possibly involving members of the public under the flight path in a major western country. The cause of the incident will need to be squarely placed in the fatigue/lack of training/over zealous security or similar bracket.

P.P.

[Wiley]

P. Pilcher and Roy Hudd are both spot on the money in my opinion. However, it was the European airlines, led, I believe, by British Airways, who started the rot with insisting on taking only cadets who had passed through their own ab initio training schemes and who had "not learned any bad habits" out there instructing or in air taxis. I appreciate that there isn't as big a General Aviation industry in Europe as there is in the US, Canada and Australia, (and perhaps that should be "was", as it has been thoroughly gutted in Australia of late), but I still believe there is nothing better in culling out the dross while giving command and commonsense experience to a young pilot that a trainee will never get in in-house airline training than 1000 to 1500 hours of GA flying before he or she gets to sit in a jet.

With the current shortage, the airlines are beginning to reap what they have sown by making the job so unattractive, both in lifestyle and in remuneration terms, that they simply aren't getting enough youngsters willing to put themselves through the mill for so little perceived reward. However, we, the pilots - or a significently large number of us - have not helped the situation over the years by stabbing our colleagues in the back by being so willing to work for peanuts just so we could fly a big jet by undercutting groups of colleagues who have attempted to stop the rot by taking industrial action. The way so many European charter pilots almost gleefully flocked to Australia for a paid summer holiday back in 1989 to totally destroy the Australian pilots' position in their fight againt unreasonable company practices is a case in point.

[PAXboy]

Non-pilot speaking
CaptKremin And yet pay rates remain depressed below 2000 levels.
Something just doesn't add up.That's because you are not an accountant. :hmm:

ADFS That cosy idea is about 40 years out of date.

GMDS = Spot On!
These are the same kind of shortages that we seeing other areas, such as medicine. In IT, I have seen this: Mgmt want to save money so experienced person will not agree to do the job at that price. They then hire inexpereinced person who is rather cocky about his computer skills. He might scrape through but the company will have a rough ride or, the project is a disaster and they then have to spend the money that they originally agreed not to spend, in order to fix it. Does this sound familiar? Of course, in IT, when the project goes wrong, it is already on the ground ...

P.Pilcher Yes, exactly what I have been saying for some time. The problem, though, is to identify the fatigue element and apportion blame when appropriate.

There have been a number of threads where it is apparent that FC believe that the airline mgmt will reach for their prepared speech. (I have shortened the ten page document prepared by their lawyers):
This pilot was fatigued.
They should have declined the duty.
They know that we place the safety of our clients and staff above all else and are always sympathetic to people that are fatigued.
Since they did not absent themselves from duty .. it was their fault.

Meanwhile, in the background, you will hear many of their employees talking of the threats wielded if you DO report as fatigued.

So, yes, some people must die before anything changes because the only things that changes peoples minds are money and death.

[haughtney1]

Wiley
The way so many European charter pilots almost gleefully flocked to Australia for a paid summer holiday back in 1989 to totally destroy the Australian pilots' position in their fight against unreasonable company practices is a case in point.
You are living in a dream world if you think this has ANY relevance to the argument put forward.
This is a discussion relating to lowering standards of training and experience, not about the over inflated pay packets and ego's of pre 1989 oz airline flying:=

[Riverboat]

The current shortage of pilots is a major problem, no doubt about it. The worst affected are the 3rd tier airlines, who lose pilots to the first and second tiers, and then struggle to find suitable pilots.

But even worsely affected are the training schools, who desperately try and hang on to their instructors, but are largely fighting a losing battle. We now have a situation where, if you want to become a humble (but most valuable) aero club instructor, you have to do the CPL course first and then do an instructors rating on top. Costs plenty and takes a long time.

You can imagine, that after going through all that training, you are tempted to forgoe the aero club experience and go straight into the right hand seat of a Q400, or at least some sort of commercial operation.

Professional flight schools are now having to pay a lot more for their instructors, yet are still very short of them. the result is that the system just isn't working efficiently.

But let's assume that this all settles down, there still remains the problem of the bigger and more glamourous airlines taking pilots off the smaller airlines. I know it has always happened, but now that the cost of training to a Frozen ATPL/IR has gone up so much, and there aren't many ex Air force guys available, the smaller airlines - and maybe some larger airlines, too - are having real trouble getting enough pilots.

I don't agree with Wiley who said that Hamble was a bad idea. I think the opposite; I think it was an excellent idea, and it is a great pity that BA have abandoned this method of recruiting pilots. (Mind you, I accept that BA don't have 748s, ATPs, etc any more, and I think they would have to farm out pilots for two or three years to a smaller airline - rather like Premiership football clubs loan out their young players to Championship clubs.)

BA can afford to train up pilots. So can Virgin, T'Fly, Monarch etc. If they want pilots for the future, they should do their bit to get pilots trained, not just wait for pilots to come to them.

OK, knowing Ppruners, many will argue the finer points, and I accept that I have not made a full case, but I do think the fundamental, and developing, problem is with the training schools and the (soon) crippling cost of training up commercial pilots.

[YesTAM]

With the greatest of respect, like most of the arguments one reads about "shortages" of Doctors, Engineers, tradesman etc.

The problem is not a shortage of pilots at all. It is a shortage of pilots prepared to work for the pay offered.

I can think of many bright young people who might like a flying career....but when they compare lifestyle, risks and personal cost against the rewards....they decide on other careers instead.

To put it another way, it is a shortage of pilots prepared to work for peanuts, under continuously deteriorating employment conditions.

[pfd99]

If you look up Clark Aviation in Angeles City, Philippines you will see they have already set up this type of training facility you are all looking for and as fireflybob said was once around. This facility has nearly 90 new MPL students and some are over half way through their one year training.

pfd99

[Doodlebug]

yesTAM

Finally, somebody hit the nail on the head! :D

[FullWings]

...and just as enough pilots have been trained there'll be another world recession in air travel, with oil at $200+ and huge green taxes applied. Pilot supply has been 180 degrees around from demand for much of the history of aviation...

[Ignition Override]

Let's bring it out into the light of day. This may appear a bit general and subjective, but let's not forget the so-called 'battle landscape' for the last several years. Napoleon was beaten at Waterloo partly because he assumed that the landscape was too flat to hide thousands of British troops (and with von Blucher's assistance to the Allies).

Each US airline, whether large or small, basically has a separate union when you look at the results. Whether unionized by ALPA (or heaven forbid-no representation), the recent results often indicate that each Master Council is an island unto itself :ouch:, despite various MECs' struggles to achieve similar rates of pay and benefits. 9/11 and the economy changed much of this. Some managements have over-reached the bankruptcy process in order to exploit labor groups, as never before. They might have improved upon old "FrankieSmooth Talk" Lorenzo. It was, for at least one US airline, a Dream Come True-with the collaboration of its (former) Master Council. The MEC Chairman and the company CEO were photographed together, as they were enroute to Congress in order to plead for deferred corporate payments owed to the PBGC (the pseudo-private Pension Benefit Guar. Corp.) etc.

ALPA has never set a minimum of pay for the industry, or a standard for a given aircraft/seat position. If most of the US industry is not already in the lowest sewer lagoon, it is headed there. The harsh reality is that within a given pilot group, especially in a large company which has various narrow/widebody operations, there can be three, four or even five sub-classes. Some of them have been treated by their former negotiators :cool: as if they are a bit sub-human, in the aviation sense of the word, somewhere above the Untouchable caste-but not far. You've seen the newer Geico commercials with the Neanderthals?

And years ago 'in the good old days', managements strenuously objected to suggestions of managements' "pattern bargaining" strategies. What do you all suspect happens at ATA (Air Transport Association) conferences, in the back rooms :E?

When Comair and Flight Safety in the early 90's combined forces in order to creatively exploit the vague language in the Delta MEC's 'scope clause' :zzz:, the RJs became the hot fashion-as hot as the EGT yellow arc during takeoff. Those pilots basically bought their jobs in the CRJ, and for about the same price as a jet type rating-but the FOs realized up front that there would be no type ratings, as part of the pre-hire package, according to "Aviation Week & ST". This early "foot in the door" directly contributed to the fact that tomorrow's/today's DC-9 and B-737 is either a CRJ or the newer Emb-170/190. There go thousands of major airline jobs, which thousands of young pilots will never have. In about three years from now, about a third of potential US major airline jobs will be gone, compared to the 70's, 80's and 90's.:(

Added note: to augment (like a 13-stage valve) what later posters describe.
Even if many future (RJs) have 90 seats, what do the new, young pilots believe that they will pay, in today's dollars? Anywhere near 90% pay of the previous (or present...) pay on a 100-seat DC-9, which will be mostly gone in a few years? Back in 86-87, NWA's FO's were paid about $2800/month in the second year ($3500 in 3rd), and it kept increasing. What would that equate to NOW?
Sadly, no matter how despicable the pay is now, (are egos still the basic "pilot opium"?: that's why so many crossed the picket lines at at CO and Eastern, in order to strut around in those gold stripes after marching from a greasy jet:cool:..), the RJs already have replaced a serious fraction of major airline jobs. Almost all DC-9s and 737s (100-122 seat category) will soon be gone and they are not coming back, in terms of pay (the F-100 jets are long gone). "But wait until we make Captain on the ERJ-190....". OK-but at far less than half the purchasing power of a DC-9/737 a few years ago, in equivalent dollars, for flying the Exact Same City-Pairs, and with max. duty days now at 15, instead of 13-14 hours. PS: Compass has no written contract for pay. So promises will be acceptable? JetBlue pays about 85$ as ERJ Captain in about the 1st, 2nd year. "My personal contract lasts 5 years.." Okay Rambo, an "army of one". The Roman army would have dissolved and never survived, without solid shield walls and strict group discipline. "Did somebody say Romans?" Some of todays airline upper mgmts are fiercer and more deceptive than Arminius' (Hermann's) tribes ever were.

[BelArgUSA]

Well put, Ignition Override...
xxx
I look at what is happening now or in the very near future in USA, and already happens in Europe and the rest of the world... And I remember how it was when I got hired by PanAm...
xxx
1966-1969 era... To be hired then, it took a CPL/IR minimum (no ME required, just a C-150 type rating), for some carriers, i.e. Piedmont, Allegheny, Frontier, Air West, Mohawk or Southen Air... 200/250 hours total time would have you to be considered for F/O on a Convair 440, Martin 404 or Fairchild F-27. High school diploma. For the majors, Eastern, American, United, TWA, PanAm, maybe a slight preference for ex-military, but same basic minimums would get you considered. Back then, your initial position with the majors was almost always F/E, where you stayed at least 1 year, learning the trade from the guys who had a "window seat"...
xxx
I remember United, who had the Pilot Advance Acceptance Program "PAAP" where pilots were hired with a PPL, and they signed a bank loan for you to get the $3,000 advance to buy the CPL/IR training. I got hired by PanAm, being from Brussels, I wanted to fly to Europe and be home very often. I had a Green Card... I also had a class date for TWA, but they said that flying overseas required a few years seniority. Back then Eastern was the biggest airline in the US... The DC-6s and Connies were being retired...
xxx
PanAm had wonderful plans back then, a 747 order for 25 airplanes, and the Boeing SST (was it 8 airplanes), possibly even a few Concordes to supplement the SST fleet. According to the welcome briefing, we all would be F/Os withing 1 year, and captains withing 5 years of hiring date.
My initial training was long, took 3 months classroom, simulator and line training in MIA to qualify as F/E 727. I remember my oral exam lasted a whole day. Then I got to be "reserve" for 2 months, I got 2 or 3 flights. Then was informed that they required F/Es on the 707s, so I asked for that transition, this time, only 2 months of training again in MIA. Thereafter, a couple of months of reserve, then flights became more frequent.
xxx
I remember Continental, where they had a crisis with captain upgrades in 1968, because many F/Os were to be upgraded, but did not have the age minimums (23) to hold the required ATPL...
xxx
How was the pay, well, it was peanuts, but livable. $750/mo for the first 6 months, and $850 the second 6 months, per diem $2.oo/hr... Thereafter, you could expect some $1,600-1,800/mo. Back then, gasoline was 29 cents a gallon, I had a '61 Corvair, and at JFK, new hires joined together to rent an apartment on Queens Blvd area, 5 or 6 pilots per 3 bedroom apartment, each pilot paid $100-150/mo. A hamburger meal was $4.oo, coffee and tip included.
xxx
All went fine, I ended up 727 F/O, then soon 707 F/O, had passed my ATPL written, even received the type ratings. Then the 1973 October War... Subsequent months, layoffs and the industry started to self destroy.
xxx
So my friends, compare that to what the industry offers now. Gasoline is 10 times the price it was in 1968. I paid my used Corvair $800, now, a decent used car is $5,000 or more. Dinner is now $20/25... Rent is 5 times as high as it was back then... and if you fly overseas, do not mention what your US dollar pays in the Euro economy. Yet, your salary, is double only, compared to mine in 1970. Your per diem... maybe only double also...
xxx
Shall we also mention that most if not all of you have to reach 1,500/2,500 hours, and the ATPL, and buy a type rating in your CRJ to get a job... All that equates to a minimum of $50,000+ investment. And... were you hired, or are you still working as a CFI and looking for a "regional F/O job"...?
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Bob Lenahan]

BelArgUSA,
I enjoyed reading your post very much, but I seem to remember things a little different, maybe I'm a little confused as to specific airlines or dates.
Here's the way I rember things then, based on your post- comment as you wish as I could definetly be a little fuzzy:
In the mid 60's United had a program that if you had a commercial and two years of college they would guarantee you a class-date as soon as you graduated. I can't say how many were hired under that program. Problem was, by 1969 they had less than a handful of those hirees still with them because they could not maintain United's standards.
As I remember F/E's at United were making 20,000/yr.
I really can't think of any time period when Eastern was the largest airline in the U.S. I am real sure that by the time UAL took over Capitol Airlines they were the largest in the U.S. until American took over TWA. I believe United had been the largest since at least the early 50's.
By the late 60's, commuters were hiring co-pilots with all the certificates and ratings and 1000 hours at about $800/mo, and direct entry captains at $1500/mo- and the a/c back then flew max of 19 pax.
Todays RJ are 50 or more, pay about the same. Apparently too many people are willing to fly for free.

[Orangputi]

I agree that this thread is important as this situation is spinning out of control. It is going to get much much worse in terms of incidents and accidents. Everyone is driven by the almighty dollar and aviation safety and standards is the casualty.Atleast pilots tend to have voice to say something about this situation.

Consider our engineering colleagues, they are further down the slope and they have very little voice in reality. I think long gone are the days you could rely on the guy coming up to sign your airplane to be a walking type specific data-base. The industry really worries me at present technically in terms of who is flying and who is fixing them.

[411A]

Like my friend, BelArgUSA, I too was trained at PanAmerican (B707) and was lucky enough to slot right directly into the LHS, overseas.
This was in the very early seventies, and airline FD positions were very hard to come by in the USA.
I received some very good advce back then from an 'old hand' in the business...get your Command and head offshore.
I did so and never looked back.
The wages for pilots at that time overseas were quite good (and mostly tax-free), and the supply of commanders short.

It's all gone backwards since then, as a close look at the middle east forum will undoubtedly testify.
The bloom has definitely gone off the rose.
Still, at the pointy end, the job can be enjoyable, even if the pay has subsided.

[Ignition Override]

What prevents US airlines from recruiting overseas for the pilot shortage? The FAA or TSA's background security checks?

Years ago, an Asian country (or airline) paid a regional airline in the Midwest to use its new FOs on turboprops, in order to help them acquire real-world experience before returning to the home country.
The airline supposedly spent little or none of its money for these FOs.

Other than language handicaps or security complications, what would stop US airlines from putting pressure on Cabinet-level people in order to expedite this process and cut corners? These VIP career ticket-punchers are appointed by whoever resides in the White House. We know what corners were cut by Reagan and Bush Sr. (in their worlds majority stockholders are perfumed princes-staff/workers the unlettered scum) in order to allow, by rubber-stamping anything, the "glory of deregulation" to blossom (according to John Nance, it directly caused the deaths of many passengers:ouch: By the way, Nance's first edition of the book about Braniff Airlines [and 'allegedly' AMR's Sabre computer res. system], "Splash of Colors" was never allowed into bookstores etc...).

We read in "Aviation Week & ST" in the 90s about various US govt. DOT Administrative Judges who ruled in favor of whatever TAC issues were presented, and somehow found jobs waiting at Lorenzo's Texas Air Corp. after government retirement. Coincidence? Much of the present situation here began when Congress (+Senator Kennedy with Pres. Carter and a motley crew) and others were charmed by the highly flawed economic theories of that formerly academic deregulation 'guru' jackass, Mr. Alfred Kahn. He already owned so much allegedly real or tentative airline stock (allegedly courtesy of the Texas Air Corporation;)) that he was clearly unbiased in his obscure, convoluted arguement$.

What will stop some of these elements from returning to further damage the US airlines via the backdoor, as the nation is focused on the Middle East and the intellectually (for most of the USA...::8) challenging concept of how long celebrities remain in the LA jail?

[Seat1APlease]

yesTAM is quite correct.
There is no shortage of suitable, bright young people who want a career in aviation. Over the last ten years the airlines have been looking for people who will spend £50K of their own money for training, then more for a type rating, then pay for simulator, medicals etc. Work long days including weekends and bank holidays for a salary of around 2/3 of the average wage.
There is no pilot shortage, but there is a shortage of people who are that desperate for flying rather than the law, computing, accountancy or medicine as a career.
When the airllines wake up to the fact that they are going to have to pay the going rate for qualified professionals then they will find plenty of applicants.

[BelArgUSA]

Affirm, Bob, regarding United and its fleet size. I think that Eastern, right around 1968-1970, had more "revenue passenger/miles" than anyone else... PanAm had the most extensive routes in miles (but some flown only weekly).
xxx
Funny is, UAL remained strictly domestic + HNL for decades, and AA was strictly the lower 48 and Mexico City in the same era... Delta was barely more than a "regional" carrier... then the big merges started, United ate Capital, American ate Trans Carribean, Delta ate Northeast and Western and finally the so called domestic majors became international by carving into the routes from PanAm, Eastern and Braniff... Then we saw the Frank Lorenzos and the Carl Icahns coming out of the dark...
xxx
Oh, at times, snotty "PanAmigos" were looking down on the new entrants on the Pacific, Atlantic and South America areas... we were "superior international expert pilots" (right?) - and the dumb-estic pilots were nothing.
xxx
I remember being at home in LA, about 1977-78, being invited to interview for Air California, and declining because I was an "international 707 captain" on an ACMI to Saudia or Pakistan then (and PanAm layoff)... all because for me, a 737 F/O position for an intrastate carrier was next to nothing. By now, all the old timers from AirCal are probably captains with AA on 767 or 777...
xxx
But what disgusted me the most, being finally a PanAm 747 captain in 1989, was to be interviewed by Delta in early 1992 after our Chapter 7... I was offered a F/E 727 position, paying about $1,800 gross (how gross) for the first year. Back then Delta prohibited jump seating on company flights for commuting. Commuting was only cabin seat, space available. And you should have heard some of the personal questions their HR department asked me about my then girl friend (not being married)... and if I was active in church activities, etc... I remember many ex-PanAm F/As crying when they described their interviews and questions they were asked (do you practice birth control...?).
xxx
Dont ask me why I expatriated myself... and glad to have left, sold all I had in California, with a personal Chapter 7 and a foreclosure... My pension for PanAm... you would laugh... And at least where I am, Argentina, I can continue to fly to 65 age, and with 14 years of service with them, my retirement will be double of PanAm's...
xxx
One thing to say, today's salaries and benefits stink. US airlines had to deal with an exponential increase of fuel costs, but never cared to increase the salaries of crews and maintenance to reflect today's cost-of-living proportions. In Europe and Asia, they are behind too, but not as much as the USA. Then read these wanabees from Europe and Asia crying for a pilot job in the USA... they must have a mental deficiency, thereby probably inapt to qualify for a Class 1 medical...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[CaptainProp]

"A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet." - And this was written by another "aviation expert" :ugh:


/CP

[Luke SkyToddler]

Have any of you lot actually read the 'wannabes' forum?
There are literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of young uns sitting there discussing the relative merits of where to go to spend their £50K for licence followed by £25K for type rating followed by £15K for buy-hours-on-type "line training program".

Yes I know from where we sit they are all clearly out of their freakin minds, but they all "seem" normal and intelligent enough.

Lets be honest the desire to get into aviation was never exactly one that was motivated by rational financial analysis of risk benefit reward. Every little boy wants to be a pilot or a rock star or a pro footballer when they grow up, and I'm afraid the chances of a genuine shortage developing at the entry level to this industry are indeed about as high as Simon Cowell running out of candidates for Pop Idol, or Man U running out of kids trying out for their academy. The problem is EXPERIENCE, the one thing that can't be bought and sold (although certain of these buy-hours-on-type programs are trying to kid the punters otherwise).

The pay rates for expat contractors, particularly captains, have in fact gone up a lot in the last 5 years and I reckon they'll have to go up a lot further yet.

The pilot shortage is in fact here but it's a different pilot shortage to what it was back in the day. Cathay and Emirates have historically been the holy grail of big expat gravy trains but ask anyone who works there now and they'll tell you those days are long gone, largely due to pay rates not keeping up with cost of living over the last 20 years (and Hong Kong and Dubai now being some of the most expensive places in the world to live).

The smart expat pilot money now is sitting in a left seat in India (and soon to be China when it properly opens up) where you can still have a good standard of living for relatively cheap and stick most of your take home pay into a savings account at the end of the month, instead of certain other old-school expat jobs where it seems you now have to spend over half your income on renting a decent house. Hopefully as the aviation industry keeps booming in those countries and the packages become lucrative enough to start tempting people away from established western and other expat airlines, the rest of the world will have to start playing catch up.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

For heaven's sake...

Just about every thread on pprune includes blaming whatever problem is being discussed on THE LOW-COST AIRLINES. Get real. The airlines perceived as low-cost are simply businesses that operate efficiently in the face of stiff competition. As opposed to all those "aaah the good old days" airlines who thrived because they had route monopoly and government backing. And they still have not learned their lesson. Just flew with an ex-Connect guy who said the amount spent on needless taxis (one person per taxi please) probably canceled out any chance at making a profit on some routes. We should come up with a new naming convention, where LoCo are called Airlines and (most) legacy flag carriers HiCo Airlines.

To go back to the pilot shortage, there is NO WAY EZY or Ryan would let FOs that don't make the grade pass the line check get into the right seat. They are far too aware of the repercussions one or two crashes would have. If this shortage is to have an effect on safety, it will be with the parts of the world where safety is already questionable. And you can't blame "Low Costs" for that.

Like Full Wings said, the output of trained pilots will eventually catch up. Just in time for the next recession :ugh:

P

[SIC]

Sure the trained pilot output will catch up.

Like the Airline cadet who recently failed his first comm/IF test, then proceeded to crash the Seneca on the second attempt. And the Airline sponsoring him from somewhere East ( India? ) said they are booking him a third IF test - he has to pass cause his 738 simulator was booked and he needs to be online at this airline in three months....

This was in California somewhere I think....

[Bob Lenahan]

BelArgUSA, good post- enjoyed it.

Permafrost, "there is no way..." Are you serious? Are you really that naive? Companies putting in inexperienced AND/OR incompetant pilots (which I have seen) do not expect them to crash. They don't believe they will. Take any flight- the odds are in your favor. Inexperienced pilots are hired because the bean counters can get them cheap.
When I dead-headed someplace I always checked who the flight crew was going to be. Sometimes I waited for the next flight.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

EZY and Ryan have been going for 10 years, where are the crashes? You can't say "it's only a matter of time" forever. Of course it'll happen some day, but EVERY ex-BA, SA, VS, etc. old timer I have flown with at EZY says that the safety culture at EZY is remarkable.

And no I am not that naive. Airlines have been using cadets for decades. It's never been a problem at safety conscious airlines, otherwise they would have stopped. So why would it a problem when it comes down to safety conscious "LoCo" airlines???

Let's look at it objectively. Airline A has paid every penny of the training of Cadet A and they have to make a tough decision because Cadet A has failed his line check twice. Same situation with Airline B, which has spent next to nothing on Cadet B (since he/she is self-sponsored). Now can you honestly say that Airline B would hesitate more before chopping Cadet B than vice versa???

Out of something like 350 pilots to be hired at EZY next year, 50 or so will be CTC cadets. The rest will come from other airlines. That sounds like a reasonable ratio to me. Given the number of unemployed fATPL guys out there, EZY could hire 175 ab initio guys for the RHS if they wanted to...

Like the Airline cadet who recently failed his first comm/IF test, then proceeded to crash the Seneca on the second attempt. And the Airline sponsoring him from somewhere East ( India? ) said they are booking him a third IF test - he has to pass cause his 738 simulator was booked and he needs to be online at this airline in three months....

Like I said in my first post, my opinion is only based on safety conscious airlines (nothing to do with Low/High cost). The pilot shortage WILL make things even less safe at the rest of the bunch. And that's scary.

[BelArgUSA]

Just to mention to the "anglos" here, that "LOCO" in Spanish means crazy...
As my mind is tune to Spanish, maybe is the way I think of these air carriers.
:}
Happy contrails

[RAT 5]

One thing I would say to those who cringe at the thought of a 'cadet' being in a B737 or Airbus cockpit with FR or EZY. The TQ training for both, we assume, is quite good. The line training we hear is also focused and of good quality. What I have observed in this type of enviroment, where pilots are doing 50-60 sectors per month, is that a capable, keen, intelligent cadet is on a very steep learning curve, and after 6 months is a far more capable aviator than someone trawlling the skies for +12 hours in a long-haul widebody. They may start green and wet behind the ears, but those who shape up become excellent handlers very quickly. The stuff between the ears comes with time, but the rate of data processing for the grey matter between those ears is huge. The same was true in the charter world, but at a slightly slower rate due to less sectors. However, the variety of the daily challenges was vast. Again, trolling in an out of major CAT 3 ILS airfields allowing ATC to fly the a/c, does not present anywhere near the airmanship education that Greek island or small French airfield operations does.

I can think of many an 'experienced' old wag in the LHS who scared the pants of me with some of their antics, plus some slightly old F/O's from dubious background airlines, who demonstrated equally shoddy airmanship, despite having plenty of hours. The average + calibre cadets, generally, show good common sense in their early days. It's when you fly with them after 1 year and they have started to copy some of the more gungho techniques they have seen form some fo those 'older wags' that I start to become concerned.

[Airbus Girl]

That is one of the worst examples of "journalism" I have ever read!

"veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing. Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed"

He only took flaps "seconds" before landing? He landed at DOUBLE the normal landing speed? Like to see that one! I'd like to see him fly an approach at 250 knots and I'd like to see what happens to the flaps when you pull them at that speed.

"According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License."

Er, yes, coz most of those are private pilots... doesn't exactly spell it out does it? Obviously couldn't be bothered to find out the actual number of airline pilots.

"In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations - including the United States - are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years."

No mention of Europe already being 65 years.

"Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains."

Yep, that has been happening now for how many years? Must be around 20 or more?

"But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance."

Hmm, so how do they reckon any pilot new to flying airliners gets trained then? Has this journalist not heard of Training Captains?

"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."

No, according to our CAA anyway, the maximum hours limitations are to prevent fatigue. Allegedly.

"The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut - the Multi-Crew Pilot License - where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries."

Well the original Approved Course was only 12-18 months long.

"supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet"
So they mean a Training Captain and a Safety Pilot yes? With the new pilot in the RHS. Like most airlines in the UK do now anyway?

I do believe there is a shortage of experienced pilots. Thomsonfly for example took Direct Entry Captains a couple of years back.

And the MPL has been reduced and reduced and I believe is currently planned with no independent examiner for the final check and no ongoing monitoring or feedback of standards of this licence - something BALPA were campaigning for. The CAA seem to have been a bit rattled by the Unions anti-feeling and seem to be backtracking a bit and now saying they are not in full support of it. Could be interesting...

[ATPMBA]

:ok::ok:Quote -
A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet."
Under FAA, FAR 121.437 for a flag or supplemental operation requiring 3 or more pilots, any SIC needs to have an ATP and type rated. The FAA requiees a total of 1,500 hours for an ATP.
The original poster is correct.

[BelArgUSA]

ATPMBA...
Thanks for explaining the 121 Flag and Supplemental Rules.
xxx
However your first sentence, all by itself, would be incorrect (if you would quote rules applicable to domestic air carriers) or in the case of 2 pilot crews of flag and supplemental carriers NOT requiring a third pilot (i.e. shorter flights).
xxx
I could also make a single sentence, that would be correct by itself, as follows...
"An airline jet co-pilot minimum qualification is CPL/IR/ME and 200 hrs total experience" (total required for CPL/IR).
xxx
All people who are pilots know of this, at least basically, but try to explain that to the general public, as presented by the news media... I can imagine an eager reporter writing "the co-pilot did not even have an airline pilot licence"...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Ignition Override]

Someone stated that airlines will do anything to avoid a crash (Permafrost ATPL?).

Over here in the US, some narrowbody airframes might be insured for up to about half a billion dollars. If insurance is affordable and the Upper/Middle Mgmt. 'gentlemen' at my top-notch airline now have their hands on the hundreds of millions worth of free company stock, just what incentive do they have to feel responsible for an aircraft (loaded with women and children) which runs out of luck, connected to the insatiable financial greed which led to uncontrolled outsourcing, by way of unbridled contempt for invaluable staff experience?

The corporate top dogs here only care about data and numbers, some are 'armed' with law degrees and speak only using grossly-distorted half-truths and lies to the media. Therefore, they can always pin liability on the pilots or others who are considered the Untouchables. This appears to be their job.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

responsible for an aircraft (loaded with women and children) which runs out of luck, connected to the insatiable financial greed which led to uncontrolled outsourcing, by way of unbridled contempt for invaluable staff experience?

Ouch :) Good point though.

I was generally referring to the awareness at LoCo management (especially Ryan) that the public would be extremely biased towards thinking the crash is directly linked to the frugality of the airline. Even if it's a 20000 hour captain screwing up, joe public is likely to think that "if he flew for Ryanair and not BA, he can't have been very good". Nasty piece of work O'Leary (CEO or Ryanair, for those across the pond not familiar with the beast) has said many times that two hull losses would probably spell the end for the company.

Whether top management can retire rich regardless of the status of the airline is another question. I guess a worrying one!

P

[-8AS]

Permafrost, just to correct slightly your earlier post, Ryanair has been operating now for 20 years, not 10. I do agree with you view on public opinion. Low Cost Carriers will always be viewed differently by the travelling public than the Majors (unjustly in my opinion).

[411A]

I think most will find that many countries have tightened up the flying rules just a bit with regard to pilot qualifications...no, not necessarily flight hours, but specific type ratings.
The FAA have now for several years been issuing second-in-command type ratings for when crews operate outside of the USA, in those aircraft that require specific type ratings to be issued, by other countries.
Large US airlines have, of course been doing this for a very long time, for their crews that operate overseas, but those type ratings previously issued were for a full command rating, not just SIC.

[Airbubba]

Large US airlines have, of course been doing this for a very long time, for their crews that operate overseas, but those type ratings previously issued were for a full command rating, not just SIC.

Yep, back in the glory days Pan Am type rated all pilots, even on the 727. And the best time to get the type rating is after the full course (weeks and weeks at PAA), not after a quickie firehose "upgrade" course (I've tried it both ways over the years).

Northwest has started hiring again here are the published minimums:

Required Qualifications/Flight Time Minimums:

1500 hours Total flight time
1000 hours Multi-engine
500 hours PIC
Airline Transport Pilot Certificate, Multi-Engine or ATP Written
First Class Medical
FCC Restricted Radio permit
Valid Passport with the ability to enter and exit all international destinations, including the ability to travel in and out of the United States
Legal authorization to work in the United States
Willingness to work a flexible schedule (including holidays and weekends)
Proficient reading, writing and speaking in English
Effective interpersonal, customer service, organizational, and leadership skills
Pass pre-employment drug screen, medical exam and background check
High School graduate or equivalent (college degree preferred)



http://flight-nwa.icims.com/nwa_flight/jobs/candidate/job.jsp?jobid=1009&mode=view


It is understood in recent years that successful applicants will usually have far more more than the minimums except in cases of underrepresented demographics.

[mark sicknote]

If you look up Clark Aviation in Angeles City, Philippines you will see they have already set up this type of training facility you are all looking for and as fireflybob said was once around. This facility has nearly 90 new MPL students and some are over half way through their one year training.

pfd99


pfd 99

I am aware of what is happening at Clark. From a training perspective, the Philippines is becoming a disaster area. Only last month 2 students were killed at Plaridel airport (north of Manila). THis and other airfields are becoming know as "no go" areas for those of us who fly in the Philippines as the schools are attempting to churn out hundreds of pilots (mostly for the Indian aviation sector) every month.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=84314

If this is happening at "grass roots" level, what will the future hold for those who travel with the commercial airlines in coming years.

I have witnessed many students who have been "fast tracked" this way in the Philippines and would not want to fly with them as passengers in any aircraft.

[00seven]

RAT-5,

The focus and priority of 12+ Hours of Long Haul flying (as you put it), is 'management' of the operation rather than a handling/stick & rudder emphasis.

Your assertion that short haul 737/320 flying is more challenging than long haul flying is ill conceived. There are an array of issue's, threats and considerations that need to be constantly assessed and threat management strategies implemented. The knowledge base required is also greater.

A lot can happen, but more importantly, change over a 12 to 14 hour flight. You will realise this if and when you fly long haul someday. Usually, people who say short haul is harder than long haul are those that most wish they could be long haul pilots!

It is true that high density short haul ops will improve handling skills, however, long haul pilots are nowdays considered 'managers' and certainly my management style will not and does not allow my F/O's to hand fly too much of a departure or arrival, unless required due abnormals.

The safest and most efficient way to fly wide body long haul ops is to make FULL use of the AFDS. The same is and should be true in short haul. Regardless of how well one can manipulate the flight controls, there is no substitute for experience, something some 500 hour cadets falsely believe they have plenty of.

Wide body long haul International ops is REAL experience and highly desirable.

[CaptainProp]

ATPMBA- Get the facts right please.

Who ever wrote the original article claimed that "You need 1500 hrs flight time to co-pilot a commercial jet". Never talked about whats needed to get an ATPL.

Are you telling me that I should call my company up and tell them we have 300+ ileagal FOs flying around our "commercial jets" at the moment? :hmm:

/CP

[CamelhAir]

Nasty piece of work O'Leary (CEO or Ryanair, for those across the pond not familiar with the beast) has said many times that two hull losses would probably spell the end for the company.

Actually no. What he has said is that ryanair can withstand two hull losses. Somewhat different and with frightening implications. The ryanair management have done the numbers and decided it's cheaper to run everything cheaply and pay for the losses.

EZY and Ryan have been going for 10 years, where are the crashes? You can't say "it's only a matter of time" forever. Of course it'll happen some day, but EVERY ex-BA, SA, VS, etc. old timer I have flown with at EZY says that the safety culture at EZY is remarkable.

Sadly for ryanair crew and pax, the safety culture at ryanair is not comparable to easy. The reports from easy on this matter are excellent. The same is not true in ryanair. The number of incidents in ryanair is truly frightening. You will have heard of many in the media, and perusal of the reports will lead you to realise just how lucky we have been. Most, however, don't make the media but you would be truly shocked if you knew what goes on.
Regrettably the standards have shown a very obvious decline in the last year or two and it is the belief of many ryr pilots that a hull loss will happen. When the pilots are of that belief I believe it's legitimate and of enormous concern.

[SR71]

00Seven,

Warning - thread creep!

The thing is, the first thing you LH pilots dicsuss at the briefing table is who gets the bunk first isn't it?

:ok:

How many sectors do you fly a month? 5, 6, 10....God forbid, 15?!

We in the SH business, fly 50-60 sectors/month which means we do a LOT more decision making than you guys....

It starts at the aforementioned briefing table.

We make a bunch more fuel decisions than you, we start a bunch more engines than you, we taxi around crowded ramps a bunch more than you, we receive and digest a bunch more clearances than you, we are likely to experience the potential for a lot more runway incursions than you, we operate our engines close to their EGT limits a lot more than you, we are exposed to the potential of an RTO a lot more than you, we fly more SID's/STAR's than you, we are exposed to more potential CFIT than you, more non-precision approaches, we carry more people/day than you....etc etc Need I go on?

You get the idea?

Arguably then, we've got a lot more to manage then, and alot more justification as a result for the use of the AFDS.

Personally I like it that way. I can't think of anything I'd like to do less than sit in an aluminium tube for 10, 15 or 18+ hours at a time. I've done enough of that kind of thing, although of course even in SH, we're in the FD for 10+ hours at a time.

What I find funny is that LH pilots are often reluctant to admit they got into LH flying because it affords them (or perhaps the perception of?) a better life....

I mean, if it didn't, why else would you do it?

Ah, I see....better when at home, but harder at work is it?

Enjoy.

:ok:

Right, enough willy waving and back to the subject at hand....

Cognizant of the fact that every Ryanair aircraft I hear going by me seems to have an expatriate at the radio, if you take them out of the equation, I don't see much evidence of a shortage here in the UK....

In fact, in Terms and Endearment, they're talking about redundancies on the basis of consolidation in the industry.

:bored:

[00seven]

SR71,

Long Haul wide body international flying has always been prestigious and has a high status level. Short haul narrow body flying......well it's no big deal really.

None of the arguments you present above will ever change this obvious perception, because the advent of the low cost industry has tarnished the image/status of the short haul pilot to a level consistent with public transport bus, train and even truck drivers.

Of course, some low cost pilots have themselves to blame because they project an awful image just by the way they wear (or in some cases), dont wear their uniform. We've all seen these guys on the ramps.

It does not inspire much confidence or respect from our customers, but even worse, it devalues the profession of a short haul pilot, hence the low salaries and poor conditions.

[graviton]

‘Long Haul wide body international flying has always been prestigious and has a high status level. Short haul narrow body flying......well it's no big deal really.’

Arrogant tripe …. comes with the title I suppose!


Mr. 007 or is it Capt. 007 has a thing about ‘prestige’ (see other posts), can you pass class 1 medical with tunnel vision?

[Airbrake]

Guys, 00Seven is full of Bull. Last month he said he worked for Ryannair! I doubt he even has a licence!

[Permafrost_ATPL]

From 00seven: certainly my management style will not and does not allow my F/O's to hand fly too much of a departure or arrival,
Ahhh, now we get to the truth. One of those LHS nightmares who's slowly eaten alive by his own insecurity. There's a couple of them at my company and every FO shudders when their names appear on the roster.
How's your ulcer? :E
P

[The Flying Circus]

Hi YesTam

The problem is not a shortage of pilots at all. It is a shortage of pilots prepared to work for the pay offered.


What do you suggest?

Pilots are unemployable. I don’t sent the builder for training when I contracting him for work. Do you get it?

A CPL pilot with 250 hrs is unemployable. How much money can you make, with a Barron or 210 on your licence and 250 hrs TT? You cannot even pay the access insurance.

How much money can a 1000 hrs pilot ( Scullies daughter excluded) with a 208 expect ? $ 7500 per month?

How much money (if nothing brakes) can a C 208 generate in a month?

How much money can a King Air 90 or 200 generate in a month? - and on ad-hoc charters – like 40 hrs per month if you are lucky ? The income cannot even cover the instalment!
Are you aware that an aircraft is a business unit on its own?

Have you ever calculated possible income, returns on investment, maintenance, unscheduled maintenance, down time, engine, prop and gear provisions, component replacements?

Do you know that there is an upper limit what the market can pay?

Explain to me how you can make money at R 22 – 23 /km on a 1900 based on 40 -60 hrs per month. (This is more or less what the owner gets.)

How much money must go to the crew?

SAA with all the latest (100 ‘s of millions of dollars) toys in the bed are running since day one at a loss (apart from one or two years when the assists were sold and placed in the balance sheet) how many airlines in the USA are under Chapter 11? How many airlines in SA went bust the last 20 years?

The bottom line is - Commercial aviation is a pie in the sky.

TFC

[Ignition Override]

Permafrost ATPL: The problem might be multiplied by the number of highly-experienced ground crews who were "outsourced".

According to one of our Check Airmen who was on the airport shuttle this winter, one of our jets had only one (1) wing de-iced, and the de-icing crew believed that they were finished. Luckily the passengers were alert and told a Flight Attendant about the forgotten wing de-icing.:uhoh:

Another Captain was told by a different de-ice crew that a stick/wand (used to check for clear ice on both upper wings) was stuck in the upper wing. How did the wand become stuck? Well...the tail is much higher than the wing, therefore the ground crew believed that the tail was the upper wing. The Captain was also the Senior Check Airman. Good timing! Location, location...

Apparently, the FAA allows these same companies to continue to operate and service jets full of women and children :ouch:.

[White none please]

Have you read your post before hitting the send button?? the arrogance / inflated self opinion is a tad alarming! Very glad I dont have to share a cockpit with you, on one of your "long haul" flights. I have spent 5 years widebody airbus & 3 years 747, now working for the dreaded Ryanair and without a doubt, it is far more challenging as a captain in terms of : non precision approaches / cat B & C airports, winter ops, low vis, limited duty periods, and extremely limited operations back up. some days a combination of all of the above is the norm. On average far more forward planning/ thinking is required, and in my humble opinion you can get bitten on the ass a lot sooner. I miss the Acars, ops back up and relaxed nature of the long haul stuff, but have a much better home life, 5 on 4 off fixed roster, (no packing!) The knowledge base required for long haul is not greater as you say, just different , I fly with some very sharp people here, and when I think back to the long haul stuff , most days were a piece of cake. Hardest part was packing the suicase.:hmm:

[00seven]

White none please (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=129556)

I am not a user of pprune to make friends.......and yes, one of the many difficult tasks of long haul ops is packing the right garments. Its about the only thing that is correct in your post.

[Right Way Up]

00seven,
The only thing difficult about Long haul is the extreme boredom. Although 11 hrs flying with you must be rivetting. :hmm:

[00seven]

White none please (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=129556)


5 years widebody airbus & 3 years 747........you almost made it as a 'real' airline Pilot but for the huge step down to FR. You should have considered easyjet instead and saved all dignity......you like going backwards it seems. Another FR puppet bites the dust, i'm sorry to say.

[White none please]

Never been happier thanks, living in Spain and better quality of life than I've had with the other outfits. Couldnt give a toss what it is I am flying or to where. Are you in all honesty trying to tell me you believe that LH Pilots are in general ,(cringe) better , superior or any other term you care to use, than their SH, MH, colleagues?
you are sounding to me like one of those sad individuals who's position as an "airline pilot" means everything to them, and within the first 5 mins of meeting people you make sure they know what you do. Its just a job mate, there are far more inportant things in life like family etc. Come on down from your pedestal, its not so bad down here, down with the normal pilots.

ps: your wife must love it when you get one of those really long trips.:ok:

[Right Way Up]

White none please.....so does the milkman!:O

[White none please]

Ha Ha!........:D

[test]

PILOT SHORTAGE! I Know at least 30 people with frozen ATPL first time pass on IR and CPL. No response from airlines and no JOBS. Airlines do not want to pay for type rating and flying schools are making a fortune. My class at OAT had over 30 students! :ugh:

[AAIGUY]

Mate...out of my class in the mid 90's in Canada only 3 of us got jobs (out of 30+). Nothing has really changed. Go out and find a 206 job, then get a Navajo gig.ect...it will take a few years but its the only sure way of getting it done.

[Yossarian]

As someone who does LH, MH and SH I find this idiotic comparison of skills idiotic. I came up through the mill, and find the skills I gained there help me to perform in all environments. I would not want to be 20 years into my career with no tangible back up, which I believe can only be gained by doing your time.

There are certain skills required by each discipline, but a thorough experience base can only help when you have spent too much time drinking coffee and staring at a black windscreen on a LH flight.

[Dan Winterland]

I'm another who has left LH for SH. SH is a far better lifestyle IMHO. LH was getting harder to cope with as I got older, it was literally killing me. On SH, I feel five years younger.

[bomarc]

to me, long haul was boston to orlando...and it felt like an eternity.

takeoffs are fun, landings are more fun. climb is ok, a well planned descent is nice.

trim up for straight and level and engage autopilot...the agony begins.

to me, the ideal routes were:

Boston to New York, to Washington DC.

San Francisco to Los Angeles.

and the biggest treat is: staying in the same time zone and home every night.

[Ignition Override]

Bomarc:
Being aware of how many days it takes for my wife and I to recover from a vacation which is only six/seven time zones away (only narrowbody flying with my job), and what guys need who return from days in the Pacific (or India via Europe) you will probably live much longer and better than many pilots who stay many years on widebodies.

I would rather fly many years (and already have) on a two-pilot jet with no automation than fly a 7-12 hour leg for more money. Quite often our enroute times are only 45-60 minutes, whether near unpredictably bad weather or not. Many flights are much shorter. By the way, our 747 FEs have always earned much more than our hardest-working/lowest-paid narrowbody FOs who often fly 5-7 intense legs per duty period in old jets. A number have left the company by choice, or not returned, also by choice.

How can the extra money (sometimes not much more-if at all-flying a typical old DC-8 or DC-10/747...) make up for what peoples' bodies must deal with :zzz:?

[Phone Wind]

It's interesting that 00seven goes on with lots of talk about 'prestige', 'dignity', 'image' and 'status' and has said nothing about pure exhilaration or enjoyment. He talks a lot about being a 'manager' and nothing about being a pilot. This from a man who only a few months ago was making enquiries about being a cargo pilot and asking about SIAL and KAL. I'd love to be on the same CRM renewal course as him one day - it would make things interesting!

However, to get back to the thread...... I do believe that the pilot shortage is affecting flight safety. It's quite noticeable that the quality of FOs and SFOs has declined in the last few years as companies are forced to employ pilots to make up the numbers, rather than employing the pilots they really want. There are undoubtedly as many young, inexperienced but excellent pilots out there as there always were. Sadly, with the increase in the number of pilots, there are also a lot more young, inexperienced but poor quality pilots out there who have entered the industry with the wrong motivation (things like prestige and money) rather than love of flying. In first world countries people are now richer than 30 years ago and more people can afford to train as pilots than used to be the case. Naturally, this means that along with more good pilots, there will be more bad pilots. Safety is going to be affected when two of the latter are flying together somewhere further down the road.

[Lemper]

...There are the ones who choose this job because they want to fly and then the ones who choose this job because they want to be a pilot.....

[C-17 GLOBEMASTER III]

If there was a pilot shortage, then no one would have to wait to get a job, I came out of an integrated course with BFSAA with 85% score on ATPL exams and 253 hours, came back to UK and waited about 7 months before I got my first job as a 2/O.

If there really is a shortage, then jobs would come looking for you in your FTOs, not the other way round.

[LOC-STAR]

Hi Gents: I flew short Haul (A320's)for 5 years and loved it...I now Fly Long Haul (B744) and love it as well..as a matter of fact if I had a choice I would stay on the -400 even though the actual flying is much more fun on short haul A/C ...However having spoken to lots of other colleagues I think that one thing is clear...Long Haul is definitely not for everyone...If you have a hard time sleeping on bunks, adjusting to different Time zones or If your think your family will not adjust to you being both away and at home for long chunks of time etc...Then don't even consider flying anything bigger than 737 etc...Also consider that this ability to adjust to Long Haul also depends on other factors such as your age or that of your children, fitness, frame of mind and off course the rostering system of your company (mine is very good :E)to name a few... I find it funny to fly with people who are in Long haul just for the money and yet hate the job and struggle at it..Just to have more money..Then again why would you want to have more money if after all you will probably have a shorter life span to enjoy that hard earned money flying longer hours:ugh:!!!!!

[Lemper]

If there really is a shortage, then jobs would come looking for you in your FTOs, not the other way round.
Let us not confuse pilot licence from an FTO with civil engineer degree from MIT or Mba degree from Harvard business school!

[Dan Winterland]

The South China Morning Post (Hong Kong) Business section from this morning has an article about how Beijing is worried about the rapid growth in airlines in China and that they plan to limit expansion of the market until the infrastructure improves. One of the drivers of this new policy is the shortage of pilots.

[Panther06]

Read "the World is Flat" by Thomas Freidman. The jobs will be in India and China for some years to come for airline pilots.

[MarkColeman]

I suppose the shortage is in real airline pilots, not 253hrs-experienced Cessna drivers.
Jobs come looking for some friends of mine and me daily in our mailbox.


Let me guess though....You're too busy sitting atop your high horse to read all the jobs offers in your mailbox?

I wish my mailbox was full of job offers, but i'm just a fake pilot wannabe cessna driver, oh well :{

[MarkColeman]

If you don't, start thinking how to gain experience instead of spending your time on the Internet.

But i was spending my time on the internet using an online question bank!!
Does that not constitute gaining experience?

Back to the drawing board for me!

[Spaz Modic]

Pilot Shortage?
No Problem!
Get a PPL.
Get practice on the numerous PC flight sims.
Buy a few hours on a real sim.
Fill out a couple of thousand hours in a log book.
Get it stamped with a forged signature.
Create a wonderful CV.
Forge a few glowing references.
BINGO!
Job in a minute!

It's been done thousands of times.

[islandjumper]

It's done all the time? Oh well ... too late for me.
Anyway, I liked the original AP article that started this thread.

[arismount]

The airlines will always hire the young bucks (& does) because they are willing to go in debt to pay for training, will take any job no matter what the pay, and will do whatever they're told by management.

Old experienced guys have none of these sterling qualities.

What about when the jets start crashing? Well, they haven't, yet (although I'm at a loss to explain why), but if they do, I think management's plan is to cross that bridge when they come to it.

[Upgrade Please]

I was a little surprised to read this in the FT at the weekend:

"It will take just over a year for Christine Lopez, a 26-year-old Filipino, to complete the transition from catwalk to the cockpit of an Airbus A320"

This will be done under the new 'Multi-Crew Pilot Licence' scheme.

Full article at:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f2939e1c-735e-11dc-abf0-0000779fd2ac.html

With only 70 hours' actual stick time from ab initio to cockpit (+180 hour sim time), can this be safe, or am I just reacting like a tabloid journalist??

[ATSU Misc]

If you had seen the photograph of this pilot trainee when she was still doing the other runway, you wouldn't care if she reads the checklist like a dyslexic as long as she's beside you in the flight deck!:cool:

Could make LH feel like SH.:ok:

[Ignition Override]

SR-71:
Self-delusion is common among some long-haul pilots, even among some short/medium-haul pilots. My company has at least a few in each category. CRM was created due to pompous superiority to the other pilot(s). Some of them go to work so that they can then Be Somebody.

The opposite sex can be fooled for a while, thereby creating the incentive for further self-delusion. Flight Attendants are not so gullible as those outside the industry. FAs know bull***t and frosty contempt from the 'lofty perch' when they see it.

So do we.

Savoring multiple FE/FO/Capt. 'feedings' from the trough of leftover First Class meals on a 13-hour flight, after we have finished the fourth or fifth instrument approach (with tail de-ice back to wing anti -ice) on to slippery runways, is a tasty delight.

Back to the Main Topic: A Check airman for a small airline said that some of their new-hires had no Multi-Engine Rating when hired! Not even with the centerline restriction.:hmm:

This is just one factor among many which have created near-chaos at some smaller airlines here, based on what some of their pilots have described to me. Some are Check Airmen.
One airline recently canceled all pilot vacations for the rest of the year!
Their loss of pilots (maybe 400+ in one year...) to other companies-caused by their upper mgmts' total arrogance and/or mis-management, inspired the pilots to pay for a large billboard sign by an interstate highway.