View Full Version : Flying through Italy
Gents,
I was wondering if those of you with experience in flying through Italy would care to post a few words of advice, describe your impressions, etc. From what I've heard here and elsewhere in the past, GA flying in Italy would appear to be a bit of a challenging experience.
I'm thinking of spamcanning my way to Malta, hence the question.
IO540
19th Jul 2007, 14:17
I've been down that way VFR a few times. It's easier to fly VOR-VOR-VOR at a high level, say FL080, and ask forcefully for transits. Sometimes they refuse and then you have to drop down fast and head well offshore to avoid the Class D zones around the airports. But then I was just transiting along the length of the country, not flying locally. I've sent you a PM.
Cheers for the info and the PM. My idea is to avoid landing in Italy if at all possible (which won't be if heading South to Malta).
In any case, yes I will be VORDME-hoping my way across. Incidentally, I have found that giving full route details (and sticking to them) on the VFR flight plan seems to make things go much smoother, crossing busy CTRs and all.
btw, did you ever manage to get a permit for Libya? I had been working for a Libyan company until last January... would I have stayed a bit longer I could have asked them to arrange for an invitation letter. Terrible timing :(
IO540
19th Jul 2007, 18:10
It does indeed appear that the UK is unusual in its treatment of VFR flight plans (they are looked at only if you crash). Elsewhere they do look at one's intended route.
No, I gave up on Libya. One needs a "sponsor". It can be arranged using one of the overflight permit companies (who presumably have "contacts", in the British Leyland Nigerian Land Rover sense ;) ) but the place is also relatively far from Crete and all in all not worth the bother and the risk of getting stranded there without enough fuel to get back. I am doing Crete (LGSA) and Ukraine instead (UKOO via LRCK, LZKZ) and they are all on email :ok:
Legalapproach
19th Jul 2007, 23:35
I have never had any problems flying in Italy. Have flown a G reg Pitts very VFR down from the UK to Tuscany and have flown an I reg SF 260 within Italy even going into Bologna on a busy day.
The awkward reputation has not lived up to reality in my experience. I have never had a problem with ATC. There are occasional difficulties with avgas etc at some field but if you are simply transiting that should not effect you. That being said - don't simply fly across Italy. It is well worth stopping and if what I have experienced is anything to go by you will receive an exceedingly warm welcome if you stop en-route.
Although unlikely to be on your route to Malta I can recommend the following airfields: Aosta, Parma, Florence, Arrezo, San Sepolcro, Fano.
Here's a map (http://fly.dsc.net/u/Plan?google=1&fueld=12&tas=120&winddir=0&windspeed=0&pid1=16450&pid2=18591&pid3=20375&pid4=20266&pid5=18670&pid6=20212&pid7=14502&pid8=16450) of my rough action plan so far, courtesy of Drauk's fly.dsc.net site (and before anyone is tempted to state the obvious, no, I do not realistically plan on flying DCT from one airport to the next, the lines are just for illustration purposes).
As can be seen, I am feeling cautiously optimistic so have planned a stop in Italy (the island in question looked nice on Google Earth). Should be able to Corsica without needing to refuel.
Whether I will be going over water from Campo dell Oro all the way to the airplane's home base in LEGE is going to be the object of careful consideration depending on the conditions at the time (weather, tiredness, restrictions, etc.) The option to hop to Cannes or even backtrack along the Italian coast remains open.
Anyway, additions/comments are appreciated, especially as regards the Eastern part of the trip.
IO: Did you send an e-mail? Nothing has arrived so far.
stickandrudderman
20th Jul 2007, 09:03
Looks like a nice trip!:ok:
IO540
20th Jul 2007, 09:16
LH2 - I see you don't have an email option in your profile so I would have sent you a PM. It was just a URL to some trip writeups which included Italy - no big deal.
Just bought the Jep charts for Italy. It's full of class D everywhere :eek: Would it be better to practise my RT in front of the mirror so I sound professionally cool when asking for transit, or to work on my fake Italian accent hoping I can pass for one of them? :}
In any case, here (http://www.nippur.net/aero/fpl/slovenia_routes.kml) is a KML file with a slightly more refined route (Google Maps version here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=http:%2F%2Fwww.nippur.net%2Faero%2Ffpl%2Fslovenia_routes.k ml&ie=UTF8&ll=43.786958,7.712402&spn=6.645178,14.72168&z=6&om=1)). Some more tweaking for going around some of the CTR is still in order.
FullyFlapped
24th Jul 2007, 15:44
LH2,
A couple of points to watch out for. Firstly, as you will have seen elsewhere, AVGAS availability is dodgy (at least in the North), so check, double check and then get it in writing!
Secondly, many fields seem to close on a Monday/Tuesday (can't remember which one), so again, check ...
Thirdly, bear in mind that the Italians have their own version of the semi-circular rule (runs E-W instead of N-S like everywhere else), and this applies to VFR flights above 3,000' or 1,000' AGL whichever is higher.
And lastly, I seem to remember that you need to file flight plans for all flights unless you have an ELT fitted.
Great country to stop over in, though ... ;)
FF :ok:
IO540
24th Jul 2007, 15:47
I'd like to know how LH2 does that amazing earth display showing the route.
If he has to enter the coordinates, that would be hard work. But if the website just takes an airways route, that would be amazing.
high-hopes
24th Jul 2007, 15:58
LH2
I've been living and flying in Italy in the past 2 weeks (mostly Milano FIR)
and yes I can confirm
- you need to file a flight plan unless you are carrying ELT. The FIS operator will normally ask you if you are on a FP or not.
-small airfields (in the North, AFAIK) closed on a monday. That's same as hairdressers :)
-semi circular rule as reminded by FullyFlapped. The Jeppesen has a reminder anyway.
Most fields I have visited seemed to join downwind or base, haven't seen overhead joins. A lot of sites (at least in the North, again that's my experience) seemed to have gliders or chutes activities.
I am bilingual and have been using Italian R/T but I've heard pretty decent English comms on FIS and even local AFIS. FIS will liaise with ATC units and CTR whenever you need a transit. Seemed to be a good service overall.
Any questions, feel free.:)
Ciao !
Yo chaps!
thanks for the advice. The bit about FIS arranging your transits sounds reassuring.
I do not intend to refuel in Italy and I will only make one stop, in Elba, if it isn't too much hassle. I should have enough fuel left to get me from Elba to Corsica, only a short hop away.
-small airfields (in the North, AFAIK) closed on a monday. That's same as hairdressers
I intend to stop in Elba on Tuesday, and I've just had a haircut, so I should be allright then :)
drauk
24th Jul 2007, 17:35
I'd like to know how LH2 does that amazing earth display showing the route.
Create the route here http://fly.dsc.net/u/Plan then click Show in Google Earth. That's not how LH2 did it though (because I only just added it).
IO540
24th Jul 2007, 19:04
OK, I can see why it doesn't work for me - I dont have google earth installed on my PC.
There was another way to do GE images without having GE installed... I think I saw it somewhere.
Evidently it works on my office PC.
OK, I can see why it doesn't work for me - I dont have google earth installed on my PC.
There was another way to do GE images without having GE installed... I think I saw it somewhere.
Yep, copy the URL for any KML you want to see into the Search box at http://maps.google.com :)
IO540
24th Jul 2007, 20:55
OK, what I saw was some sort of flash/java script which I guess must have done exactly that for you.
Ok, so we got back on Thursday evening with no loss of life or limb and the aircraft still in one piece. Great trip all around, with the exception of the Austrians--thank god we've got a sense of humour.
I've posted some trip pictures (http://www.panoramio.com/user/498141) on the web, and there is also a rough route diagram (http://www.nippur.net/aero/Croatia_Trip.kmz) for those of you using Google Earth.
Briefly, after a late departure we stopped at Cannes for fuel and latest weather, then Bologna as it was too late to make Slovenia, plus we had to go around some storms. Next day we flew to a small field called Molinella to get some Avgas (which fuel is indeed a bit of a rarity in Italy), then off to Portoroz. Spent a couple hours there planning and talking to people and then we decided to hop off to Vrsar, a small place in Croatia 20 minutes flying from Portoroz, where we overnighted.
Next day we went for lunch and a swim to Unije (the highlight of our trip, I would say), then off to Rijeka to clear customs and refuel, and latter on we departed with the intention of getting somewhere where we could clear customs and immigration for the last time. The closest EU and Schengen country happens to be Austria so there we went.
We found Graz airport and the Austrians in general to be, well, very Austrian in a Kafkian sense. We unsuccessfully spent six hours and over €100 on telephone calls trying to get a simple piece of information (which airports in Germany we could fly to night VFR), so we ended up staying until the airport reopened next morning, at which point I tried to fill in a flight plan to get us out of there. Not going into the details, but we were unable to file with the Austrians (do not ask, I couldn't help thinking of Kafka) so I went for the sure fire way, which is to call one of the BRIAs (Bureaux Régionaux d'Information et d'Assistance au vol) in France and file a flight plan through them, which always works a charm wherever you are.
So once out of Austria, we flew straight back to LEAP, with only a fuel stop in Bale, and another brief stop in Perpignan.
And that's about it, other than to say I was pleasantly surprised with the service we received from Italian ATC. Other than AVGAS being expensive and hard to find, I found Italy to be an enjoyable experience.
Jinkster
6th Aug 2007, 12:01
My experience of flying in italy - from FL330 I'm afraid but:
1) Great Coffee
2) Great Women
3) Air Traffic is shocking!!
My experience of flying in italy - from FL330 I'm afraid but:
1) Great Coffee
Yep! :ok:
2) Great Women
Double yep! :ok:
3) Air Traffic is shocking!!
Try descending FL050 next time :E