View Full Version : Qantas LH.CC EBA

19th Jul 2007, 07:27
On December 17th this year our EBA Expires
Hopefully by then we will have a new Government.
The company has begun some posturing with regard to the EBA.
LG has referred to seniority as the "curse"
Management also sees the Preferential Bid System as inefficient.
Long Range Allowance on Direct Lax is seen as double dipping.
The slipping formula is also a source of aggrivation.
Just what are the alternatives to the bid system?
1.Allocated rosters...where you have no control whatsoever over anything..except sick leave.Those flying couples with children...well.. somebody will have to leave.If you have a partner that flies...you can kiss that relationship goodbye.
2.Squirrell Caging...otherwise known as rotating seniority would also be unacceptable to those trying to balance home and work.
So folks we need to start considering the issues.
This year your opinion and vote will be more important than ever.
Ultra Long Range Flying also needs to be considered.
New aircraft types.. the A380...777 and eventually the Dreamliner(if Jet* doesnt get them all).
LG has indicated we are too expensive to operate the A380.The concept of the "elite fleet" is in the offing.
There are other lesser considerations as well
1.Home transport
2.Drycleaning of Uniforms.
All in all a lot to consider.
There are many self interest groups within in the CC ranks...and no... you cant please everyone.
But lets all try to look at the big picture .
If we dont all pull in the same direction we will be creamed.
Start thinking now...decision time is fast approaching
If you intend staying for awhile try to think where you will be /want to be in five years.
If you are not going to stay awhile try to leave a worthwhile legacy for those that follow.

stubby jumbo
19th Jul 2007, 08:58
Apparently The Terminator has been put on a "special project" for 4 months.

Wonder what he could be working on.????


Syd eng
19th Jul 2007, 09:14
If it expires in December this year, you should not see negotiation until at least the following March. The LAME EBA expired on the 1/1/07, no EBA on the near horizon for us.

19th Jul 2007, 09:22
Quote - If you intend staying for awhile try to think where you will/wantto be in five years.
If you are not going to stay awhile try to leave a worthwhile legacy for those that follow.


Also, don't be afraid [if you are not happy with what is offered] to vote NO.


Bye bye johnny, you lying little toad.:E:E:E

White Pointer
20th Jul 2007, 06:15
The old seniority issue is set to raise its head again. This for one will certainly divide everyone. Think of the perspective of those who are very junior, and will never get any more senior. Lots of these types are well and truly happy with the prospect of any change.

Not saying they are my thoughts, but certainly a common theme among those who are junior out there.

20th Jul 2007, 06:59
Watch out for company stooges masquerading as cabin crew posting in support of the company's interests................The abolition of the bid system.

For many of us, an end to the bid system will have the same effect as a termination notice.

Lives have been built around the flexibility and choice afforded us by the bid system. A system that was imposed on us nearly 20 years ago.

Qantas plans massive expansion in the very near future with 20 A380's, 65+? 787's [shared with jetscar] and continual rumours of the 777.

Those who have languished on the bottom of the heap have done the hard yards.

What a shame to see the system abolished just when things are about to improve, for all of us.

20th Jul 2007, 07:51
senority will be an issue as most of us with medium senority are going backwards, because of reduced flying for LH. whatever the issues, and there are plenty, lets not forget this company is making around 1 BILLION A$ in profits this year. i do agree, they are not going to be in a hurry as other groups have not had an eba for month or years. domestic pilots 18 month (or thereabouts), int. pilots long way off, engineers a long way off and so on.it actually saves qf many millions if the status qou remains. as far as i am concerned we should give up very little.:=

White Pointer
20th Jul 2007, 11:15
The issue of seniority will divide the crew full stop. There are a lot at the bottom who see no chance of ever moving up the list due to the way the company is going. Whether these directions are right or wrong, whether the government is right or wrong, we just have to adapt and move with the times.

With the current threat of new type flying going to others, it could be we will not see the 380 and possibly not LA in the coming years. But do we have to protect the senior at all costs in everything we do? Again not my thought, but you don't have to be einstein to know that this is the feeling among many regulars to certain destinations the LA people only ever see on reserve.

Once again, a united front will require all looking out for each other. The senior people may have to give a little to support the junior crew, and the reverse will also happen. Without this, the bigger enemy will tear us apart.

20th Jul 2007, 14:15
Divide and conquer has always been the qantas way.
Stay firm, united and consider the LONG TERM, STRATEGIC consequences of decisions made on our EBA offerings.

Those who have been before us did so and are the SOLE reason why we still enjoy favourable terms and conditions.

Qantas is going to have to employ hundreds, if not thousands of new flight attendants to crew their new generation of aircraft.

Existing junior cabin crew will shortly see the benefits of a seniority based preferential bid system through this new recruitment, but ONLY if we still have that system.........

Not that it couldn't do with a little tweaking around the edges.

Don't however agree, what ever you do, to throw the baby out with the bath water.

20th Jul 2007, 23:45
As Speedbird said...

Watch out for the company stooges masquerading as cabin crew posting in support of the company's interests................The abolition of the bid system.

If you read White pointers previous posts you will notice some commonality.

He only seems to come out with a post when something is happening that the company wants to influence.ie the LHR Base,the JFK vote and now the next EBA.

Here is a post he made to me telling us to vote yes to the JFK dispensation.

Lowerlobe: if we vote NO then how do we go about getting our NY slips back,

Well,White pointer...

The vote was YES and did the company give us back our slip in New York.............NO

You and others that support the company got what you wanted and what did the cabin crew get from voting YES...........NOTHING

Make no mistake the company does have people who post here that are not crew and push the company point of view and also sew the seed of discontent to divide and conquer.

The company has a lot to gain by splitting the crew.

21st Jul 2007, 05:40
Firstly, before you get your knickers in a knot, I support seniority bidding.

Lowerlobe (ex cabincrew) and Speedbird, how the hell can you say that anyone who opposes your view is a company stooge masquerading as crew?

There are a lot of junior crew who are sick of back to back JoBergs and couldn't give a rats about the company or any senior crew for that matter and would welcome the chance for some different flying.
These are crew who get treated like crap by some of the very senior crew, more so than you perceive you are treated by management.

If you brand anyone who disagrees with seniority as a company stooge, then you are no better than George W branding anyone who didn't support the war, as supporting terrorism.

Get over it, let's have some discussion about the alternatives and forget your childish rants.

21st Jul 2007, 05:54
As Speedbird said...

"Watch out for the company stooges masquerading as cabin crew posting in support of the company's interests................The abolition of the bid system"

White pointer only turns up when there is something the company has an interest in and guess who turns up to support him...Yes thats right the company spokesperson twiggsy girl.

Don't forget some of Twiggs past classics such as ... "why would they bother with crew rest when they have perfectly good jump seats..."

As with aircraft you can make up your own minds.....

21st Jul 2007, 05:55
lets not go overboard on this issue!

The company will be very careful about the "seniority" issue as they are well aware that a lot of Senior people have hundreds and I mean hundreds of days of sick leave up their sleeves, and a lot will use it!

so if they choose to abolish the seniority system then they will have to deal with a massive sick leave, and that will affect the visitors KPI... tch tch

21st Jul 2007, 06:01
Lowerlobe, You certainly love quoting people out of context or take sarcastic comments literally, but get very annoyed when people do the same to you.

When I made that comment about crew rest seats, I was saying it sarcastically because there are many medium haul operators that do not give crew rest seats to crew.

Go and get a job or a hobby Lowerlobe, because your comments on here are pathetic.

21st Jul 2007, 06:05
It's simple twiggsy girl it was one of your many posts that are absolute classics.

It was not out of context and it was your post.....

21st Jul 2007, 06:13
Lowerlobe, you won't give up.
I've explained that comment twice now and you still can't leave it.
Just realise that your 29 years of flying is finished and leave the comments on here to people who fly.

21st Jul 2007, 07:01
Ok how about some ideas of a seniority system that has some modifications that can benefit junior crew?

Here's one:
A certain amount of hours per year (or other predetermined time) that could be bid for in reverse seniority, before the seniority run.
This would probably work best with a one trip per roster limit.

Example: 200 hours per year, so this might mean 1 LA a roster or 4 JFK shuttles a year.

21st Jul 2007, 07:58
block flying seems the only way to go that would please a lot of people.

Well that is please a lot of people but not all the people!

I know of one particular individual that Only does LAX and only does the long slips and only works L1 (first class position) will be very upset at this! unfortunately he is not the only one that has established this kind of pattern, people like him have ruined it for everyone, just too greedy.

My bet is the company will simply "d" day your roster and there is not a damm thing anyone can do about it.......

Crying to the FAAA wont help......... who listens to them nowadays anyway!

21st Jul 2007, 08:14
Incorporating any changes into the current system presents a number of problems.

Firstly,it makes the current bid system more complex and unwieldy and the company will argue against it for that very reason.

Second,The company is only going to do something which is of benefit to them.

Third,if you try to include changes to the current bid system you are accepting that it is not working and if it goes to a commission or other court the company will use this as an excuse to implement another work system.

So we are faced with 3 possibilities.

1:We accept the proposal put forward by the company whatever that is.
2:We put forward our own model for a work system.
3:We do nothing and try to give other compromises to save the company money.

IF we can accept changes that the company likes then we can keep the current system and that might mean that we get more flying and that means promotion for the junior ranks.

21st Jul 2007, 08:22
mmmmm........... replacing a rostering system that offers the choice and flexibility to manage ones family commitments for one that offers none just because some crew have it better than others strikes me as grossly flawed logic.

ESPECIALLY with the company's planned expansion.

QF management [sic] [cough] will rue the day they decide to remove the ability of crew to manage their lives around their flying career.
As Cartexchange mentioned..........

Thousands of us will be left with no choice other than to introduce our own ," forced sick leave burn program". :E

21st Jul 2007, 09:31
qf spends 13 million on the new rostering system and testing it as we speak. it will be operational by 3Q 08. the fine tuning is aleady on the way. the out come of the eba ( i still believe they are in no hurry to have it finished) will dicate your future flying.as always ,united we stand and defend-divided you beg:{

21st Jul 2007, 12:44
why should Qantas care about "family commitments"
they aren't a welfare organisation.

why do they have to change their rostering agreements around your family commitments!

I raised my family around my work commitments!

I chose to have a family and therefore I knew what I was getting into!

The Mr Fixit
21st Jul 2007, 15:23
OCCR = Company puppet :mad:

OH & S and Life/work balance are the big issues twit :eek:

21st Jul 2007, 21:54
boys and girls

I thought that speedy and lobey were being a bit skittish when they said about company plants but it looks like they were on the money.

whitebait tells us the seniority system is at risk and girly twix tells us she wants the seniority system BUT.....the poor junior crew are being shafted and now another plant asks why the company should treat its staff like humans.

as sure as the suns sets in the west the company will try and influence this argument because it is big bikkies for them plus they dont give a rats about employees anyway.money is all that matters.

i reckon the company which is doing their best to hide a profit biger than ben hur is playing games AGAIN and using these so called crew to do it.

remember if we give away conditions we will never get them back.did the company ever give us back the crew they took off because of sars?

we have given in more times than than a nun has gone to church and then dixon still says we are a pain.he is not going to be happy until we are paying to go to work.

the imposters here only turn up when someone is having a dig at the company or something big is on the cards for the company to make big bucks.

stick together and remember what we have to lose and wait for the chicken little scare tactics from girly and her pals.


21st Jul 2007, 23:49
For gods sake. even I can see OCCR was taking the piss.

22nd Jul 2007, 01:39
Twiggs if you are going to post the company viewpoint at least use decent language.

I might ring Darth up and tell him to jump in the lake and then later tell him I was only being sarcastic and not take me out of context.

Remember we have perfectly good jump seats.....

Does anyone know if the union has a different bid system to offer the company?


22nd Jul 2007, 06:15

I agree with LL there is no need to use language like that in this forum.You talk about the childish rants of others but behave the same.

You do seem to take the side of the company in most debates and I can understand why some here believe that you are not crew.

Retracting your statements after the fact and excusing yourself by saying they were tongue in cheek serves no purpose and removes any credibility that you might once have had.

If OCCR is being sarcastic then I'm sure he/she will let us know.

stubby jumbo
22nd Jul 2007, 09:53
'LObe , I have heard on good authority that Tarantula proposed that we take on the Club UK model of the bid system that is:

THE VALIANT CHARGER MODEL with the hemi engine!!!!!

Fortunately, the boyz at the Pie Shop-Central rejected this idea:D

I attended one of the company "rants " in SIN earlier in the year in SIN...........'seems like they are just bumbling along hoping that they might get some inspiration from reading tea leaves.

I'm trying to keep an open mind on this.

What alternative have we got?

We're only getting drip fed 'info from our Rep's and as far as the management(:yuk:) input / 'info :


I still reckon Darth has been a bit too cute lately re: the Changes ahead. I reckon he's going to let fly with some new strategy any day now.

22nd Jul 2007, 21:05

Time I suppose will tell exactly what the union are doing with regards to the next EBA.

The only way out I believe is for the union to have their own bid system developed.Other than that you will have to cop Carmen mark II/III/IV etc...

A change of government might help but we will have to wait and see for that also.A lot can happen between now and the end of the year.....

By the way...you guys apparently have perfectly good jump seats...


23rd Jul 2007, 08:33
So now you are taking the piss RedTBar

23rd Jul 2007, 08:49
watch tomorrow, qf financials are going to be delivered. also on the agenda is the spin-off of the fleet, frequent flyer program, cargo/logistics division and of course the new logo.
nothing like a bit of distraction. watch for the fine print.
dont forget details for cabin/tech crews will follow on the strategy day wednesday.:oh:

23rd Jul 2007, 09:47
how long does it take to get to work from Mt Druitt

you can take the girl from Mt Druitt but you can't take Mt Druitt from the girl


24th Jul 2007, 06:34
News in today that the company has announced a self service bar in the new premium Y/C section of the aircraft.

Assuming that the company will not put anymore crew on the 400's that means the drinks and meal service will start in that zone first and then move into Darth class.

I wonder if they will be on both pacific config as well as the others.

Will the relax and unwind service be enhanced in that zone as well.....you might have powdered cappuccino's to do as well...

I imagine that will be fun....


24th Jul 2007, 09:24
yeah but you can't throw the cappucinos at them from the galley like with the peanuts, lowerlube...

hot drinks, litigaytion, all that stuff, remember? :p

24th Jul 2007, 10:08
is that capt litigaytion there scotty?

did someone spill a drink on you pal,poor scotty

27th Jul 2007, 10:13
25 July 2007

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
I wish to advise members that Qantas has confirmed to the FAAA that it is prepared to enter into EBA negotiations for a new EBA 8. Members would be aware that the existing EBA7 expires on 17 December 2007.

The FAAA is under no illusion that the Company agenda will be extensive and that the Company will be positioning itself to obtain major change, cost reductions and productivity improvements from its Long Haul crew. In its cabin crew forums, the Company and its managers have publicly canvassed increased hours of work, changes to the Bid System, hints at separate arrangements for onboard managers etc.

Qantas has also been telling crew of the need to substantially narrow the gap between its international cabin crew and those of its primary international competitors, particularly Singapore Airlines and Emirates.

Members now need to ready themselves for the most complicated and serious set of negotiations in the history of the FAAA. These negotiations will be conducted in an environment where the unfair and extreme “WorkChoice” laws are the law of the land.

In light of imminent EBA negotiations commencing, the FAAA announces the following meetings of members:

MELBOURNE: SEPTEMBER 10, 11,12,13,14.
SYDNEY: SEPTEMBER 17, 18, 19,20,21,24,25,27,28.

The venues and times of the meetings will be communicated shortly, but we are advising you of the dates with maximum notice in order that all members can bid to ensure that they attend a meeting.

The meetings will primarily be an opportunity to update you on industrial developments, to update you on the FAAA’s activities in the past year and most importantly to provide for an opportunity to exchange information with you and obtain your feedback about the upcoming EBA negotiations.

Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division.

what are yous thoughts??????????????????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

stubby jumbo
27th Jul 2007, 22:44
Me thinks................'conditions for the


.....................................are forming!!!

3rd Aug 2007, 07:46
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
We have been briefed by Cabin Crew Management and a project manager from Jeppesen about new software they are developing and evaluating for the construction of flight attendants rosters.

As you would no doubt be aware the current software that Qantas is using to produce Cabin Crew rosters is over 20 years old. It has significant limitations and often results in very poor quality rosters for even the most senior of crew. The development of the new software heralds the next generation of potential rostering systems and capabilities.

It is important to once again state the FAAA’s position; which we believe is also the position of our members. We have consistently stated that we believe that “choice” is paramount. We also have stated that a flight attendants length of service should also be taken into consideration in the construction of rosters. Our position on this has not changed.

We have also indicated to Qantas that any change at all away from the current “strict” seniority system is a matter for flight attendants to vote on and will not be departed from without considerable consultation and education of members.

I will list the sort of challenges that the Company needs to address with it employees in order to get them to agree to change the current system of work allocation. This list is not exhaustive but will give you some idea of the complexity of the system.

Issues relating to partners needing to bid opposite each other for child care
Issues of partners or friends wishing to fly together
Issues of Commuters and the length and type of trips
Issues related to part- time
Issues related to Fatigue management
Issues related to the ability to guarantee days off without using annual leave
Issues related to general fairness and equity in a stagnant recruitment environment
These are just some of the challenges that our members face in trying to reconcile their home and work lives.

The Jeppesen software is capable of “replicating” the current system of work allocation in its entirety. However it is also capable of allowing crew to vary that system by agreement and vote. The extent of that variance is a matter for flight attendants. It could mean as little as caps on some trips or the ability to have greater levels of roster satisfaction with a seniority system still intact, but also taking into account some of the things I have dot pointed above.
I am writing this newsletter to you because the company will be discussing the Jeppessen software and capability at its upcoming Strategy Meetings.

It is important that you have a say and listen to the presentation. If you do choose to attend we suggest that you go ask as many questions as you need to, in order to understand the project and its capabilities.

At the end of the day, it’s a matter for flight attendants to determine via a vote. We have been and still are of the view that a flight attendants length of service should be important in the construction of rosters and the ability of all crew to exercise some level of choice and be satisfied to the highest extent possible.

The FAAA have only had an overview briefing ourselves and are not expert by any stretch of the imagination. Your questions should be directed to the managers holding the meetings rather than your own CCTM’s or CCM’s or the FAAA at this stage.

In order to ensure that consistent and accurate information is provided only the managers conducting the briefing should be discussing the software and its capabilities. The FAAA will comment further when the Company meetings have been completed.

We will update you when we have more information

Written by Steven Reed – President International Division
Authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division


3rd Aug 2007, 07:55
Preferential bidding
Jeppesen's preferential bidding caters to the specific needs of the airline and the crew Rather than dictating what they shoiuld be satisfied with
Lifestyles are as individual, as the people who live them. People have different tastes, prefer different flavours and have different preferences. Similarly, groups of people have their own customs and values. This individuality is reflected in airlines having their own business processes and pilots and flight attendants having unique agreements.
Preferential bidding follows this general trend supporting individuality and personal crew members’ preferences. Carmen appreciates varying requirements from airlines in general, and pilots and flight attendants in particular. Carmen’s preferential bidding is developed as a flexible system that adapts to the unique needs of users rather than forcing them into a fixed process and a fixed set of bidding options.
The preferential bidding problem is a complex puzzle where the trips are the pieces that need to be put together in the best possible way. Carmen preferential bidding uses unique optimization technology that can solve even the largest and most complex bid award problems. The best available schedules are awarded at all seniority levels with constant consideration of contractual rules and company targets, such as open time constraints.
The optimizer keeps track of multiple, equally good schedules for each crew member and it always chooses the one that even the junior crew member will have the maximum benefit from, as long as it does not affect the satisfaction of a more senior crew member. Keeping track of all the restrictions at each step also means that overall limits are intact throughout the process and eliminate the need for re-building the schedules for example due to stacking problems.
Although Carmen’s preferential bidding system applies advanced optimization methods, the principles are very simple. Schedules are awarded sequentially in strict seniority order. The best obtainable schedule, given available trips and contractual limits, is always constructed. The simplicity of this approach makes the entire process intuitive and understandable throughout its whole life cycle. Comprehensibility

The transparency of Carmen’s approach, combined with the use of unique optimization technologies, makes it straightforward to reason and to understand why certain bids have been granted or denied. The system publishes schedules with detailed reasoning reports that include all necessary information needed to answer any how- or why-questions that might arise. Customized and user-friendly reports offer an easy overview of properties of both individual schedules and the entire solution.
The more feedback given to crew members during the bidding, the better is their chance to influence and appreciate the awarded schedule. The crew member is offered immediate feedback about effects of each bid via Carmen’s bid entry interface, InterBids. It is also possible to provide advanced what-if information. For example, illustrate how the schedule would look if the crew member was the most senior one or if the overall constraints were ignored.
What is a preferential bidding system really? The answer is actually not as straightforward as one might believe. The key property of a preferential bidding system is that it allows the crew members to express and prioritize their lifestyle preferences and by the addition of the built-in flexibility Carmen’s preferential bidding can be practically whatever your operation requires.
The most important factor for a successful use of a preferential bidding system is to understand and capture the uniqueness of a specific airline and its crew. With Carmen’s proprietary rules and modelling language Carmen Rave, we can customize and configure the system according to very detailed and unique requirements. Available bids and their interpretation, legality rules, costs and other constraints are implemented with Carmen Rave and separated from the core of the system. This means that any aspect of the bid system can be timely changed whenever labor agreements and contracts require changes.
Bids can describe anything from detailed flight numbers to a complex combination of layover station, minimum rest-time, late checkin, minimum credit time, etc. There are also various ways to express bids.
Each crew population requires its own bidding model. The main difference between these models is how a crew member expresses personal preferences and how these preferences relate to each other. The most common bid models are weighted bids, strictly ordered bids and bid groups. Different bid models use the same basic optimization approach, ensuring maximum transparency, comprehensibility and predictability.
Weighted bids
Numerical or descriptive weights are attached to each bid. Weights are relative, i.e. are only relevant for comparison and ordering of the crew members’ own preferences.
Strictly ordered bids
Bids are prioritized in strict order with each bid being infinitely more important than any possible combination of less important bids.
Bid groups
Bids are grouped together and the groups are then processed in priority order. If it is not possible to create a schedule with bids inside one group then all bids from that group are disregarded and the next bid group is processed.
Carmen offers a customized bidding system that crew members easily embrace and it improves the company’s productivity. The system allows all stakeholders to strike a balance between lifestyle allocation and operational efficiency.