Heathrow Taxiways

[mr ripley]

Is it just me or is the renaming of the taxiways around the wip around ex Rw 23/A confusing?

I have had clearance M-A-Link23-A1 and M-Link23-A1 for the same routing and the little bit of A off M seems pointlessly named.

Apologies if it seems quite clear as everybody I fly with thinks its confusing, except at night of course.

[Max Angle]

Quite agree, once again BAA have made a total mess of it with pathetic layout and sign posting. I've seen several infrequent visitors go wrong there already and had to stop and ask for clarification myself the other day. It is starting to look like spaghetti junction down there.

[Point Seven]

I know it's a pain in the ass but when they start to dig up the 27L hold (soon) it will all start to make more sense.

Strangely enough, the worst part of it is routing to 27R if you have crossed at S3. The rest vaguely works... Main problem is that as it has all been designed to Code F (A380) separations, it means that the signage is all very spread out making navigating the taxiways even trickier.

If in doubt, ask. I'm sure Gonzo is happy to help:ok:

P7

[Gonzo]

Hence why I use M-A-SATUN, and then follow that up when you're approaching SATUN with Link 23-A1.:ok:

You do yourself a huge disservice, P7, I'm sure even you helped somebody out at some point. :}

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

.7 is right. If you cross at S3 and then receive Gonzo's instruction to route M-A-SATUN it quickly becomes very confusing indeed. The problem is that M and A meet at 2 places. The charts we use show M quite clearly to be a taxiway running east-west on the north side of 27L (the bit with the jink to the north is just a line on the chart and looking at the taxiway designators nearby it appears more likely to be U). Therefore, by looking at the chart the most obvious course of action would be to cross the runway and turn left.

HOWEVER, since I've worked at Heathrow for a while and remember how it used to be before the taxiways were scrambled, I am fairly confident that the controller would want me to route straight ahead. This is where the next problem occurs. The taxiway signage would be a useful way of confirming that my carry on straight ahead hypothesis is correct - but the only sign you can easily see after crossing at S3 only shows M going to the west. The sign which shows the jink to the north is too far away for my aged eyes to see (it is beyond link 28 I think). Confusion tends to reign for a few seconds.

All in all - not very good.

(I think there is another confusing section in the north east corner where the route given by the controllers often misses out a taxiway which we only use for about 50 yards but which is signed much more prominently than the route they give verbally. It's been a while since I've taxied there though, so things might have changed).

G W-H

[mr ripley]

Its reassuring that we sort of agree i suppose.
Our taxi charts don't seem to correspond.

Got to see a few more taxiways and parts of LHR that I never knew existed the other Tuesday.
I digress, anyway thanks to ground for their help that day.

What's happening around 27L ?

[Gonzo]

Of course GWH, I should have specified that I say 'Straight up up M,...etc etc etc.' But yes, the signage is very distant over there.

[Bearcat]

I'll run with with Gonzo says....

Bear

[point5]

As far as I know, the two holding areas will become "squared-off" in a sort of grid-iron pattern with all turns being 90 degree turns - a mirror image of the easterly confirguration when thats finished. If i remember correctly Kilo eventiaully bisects Alpha/Bravo (North) and Alpha/Bravo (South) with Alpha and Bravo both forming a completed loop around the airfield at the eastern edge. Also consider that Heathrow East will essentially be a mirror image of T5 - all taxiways will run north-south or east-west!

[Gonzo]

Of course, we will lose a lot of the concrete that we have now to accommodate a holding point queue.

Oh, that's right, CDM will mean there's no departure queue. Forgot that.:}

[hold at SATAN]

That part of the airfield is a total mess with little or no signage. But don't forget chaps that BAA have discovered a cheap and effective way of pointing out traffic - paint: after crossing at S3 northbound, loook to the ground, there you shall find, the letter 'M' and arrows pointing left(west) and ahead (northish) painted on the taxiways
I always say "ahead on mike..." . Remember 99.99% of the time when you cross at s3 for 27R departure to HOLDING POINT A1, A2, satun etc, we want you to route north on mike, after crossing link 26 join A then Link 23 to A1, etc., not as some pilots do, continue down mike(the old Eagle taxiway) to AY1. Obviously the time we expect you to continue all the way down mike past the bmi hanger is when you are cleared specifally to AY1.
until it's all sorted(?) out - good luck y'all

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Hold at SATAN

Paint - what an excellent solution!!! That must be fairly new as it wasn't there last time I looked?

I can see why some people go all the way up the old Eagle taxiway. It is very clearly marked as M on the chart and as AY1 has an "A" in it, it stands to reason that it must be on taxiway A! This is made all the more compelling as not all controllers mention "link 23" in the clearance they give.

I'm sure it will all make sense when they finish the construction at Heathrow. (I think the public information film link on another thread says that construction will be complete by early 1947, so they must be nearly finished!)

G W-H

[autothrottle]

Anyone for reds and greens?;) I can think of one lighting op at least who would disagree! 'its getting dark, reds and greens on?' -'No, not yet its not dark enough';)

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Any chance of some more paint to mark the place where taxiway B becomes link 29 if you continue straight ahead and a jink to the right is required to stay on B? The paint has worked really well in stopping the taxiway M confusion.

I have heard a significant number of aircraft being told that they have taken the wrong route at the B/link 29 junction, so it is clearly an issue. The signage here (whilst ICAO compliant I'm sure) could give rise to some of the confusion. It quite clearly shows, with yellow letters on a black background on the left of the sign, that you are on B. If you stop reading the sign there and look out of the window a taxiway stretches obviously ahead, and I think it would be quite reasonable to assume that this major taxiway is B. It is only if you read the whole sign that at the far right it shows that B branches off to the right.

A bit of paint showing "B" to the right and "link 29" straight ahead would solve a lot of the confusion here I think.

I have also noticed that many controllers use this place to instruct a frequency change. This diverts a bit of attention on the flightdeck to the radio and may reduce the chances of an error being picked up at this tricky spot.

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think that my suggestion is reasonable.

G W-H

[Gonzo]

GWH,

We know it's a problem, and we are trying to educate people the ensure a/c are going the correct way before transferring to the other GMC.... I go back in to a/c and say 'First right to hold B1' or similar as you come round the corner.

I'd suggest putting in an ASR, so there's a two-pronged attack.

[expediteoff]

Why try and "educate" people to work around the problem.
Why not fix the problem?

[Gonzo]

We are, but ATC don't go out and paint the taxiway. We can only highlight the problem, and while people decide on whether it's worth the cost of paint, etc, we will try and work around it.

What else would you have us do?

[Airline Tycoon]

We are, but ATC don't go out and paint the taxiway. We can only highlight the problem, and while people decide on whether it's worth the cost of paint, etc, we will try and work around it.

What else would you have us do?


What we should do is refuse to use incorrectly signed and therefore potentially dangerous taxiway and create some delays. Maybe then the problems would be addressed. We are our own worst enemy because we just work around it.

Still maybe you could sort it when it's your month in ops!!:ugh:

[Gonzo]

I trust you've filed observational 4114s to that effect, and that I'll come across them when I'm down there then.... :ok: