Flying Into Glasgow International SVFR - tips

[Big Sand]

Can I ask for some ATC tips on flying into Glasgow International from Isle of Man?. I have looked through the UK AIP and checked out the VFR guide but was just looking for some local helpful hints and tips from anyone with current experience of routing VFR in and out of Glasgow.:confused:

The flight would be SVFR in a ex military light aircraft from Ronaldsway to Glasgow International.

Also any suggestions on the most cost effective method of handling etc would be greatly appreciated too! The last time I checked I saw that in addition to major credit cards handling agents would also accept human organ donation too.:{

Many thanks,


Big Sand

[Ops and Mops]

Being that most ex mil light aircraft are DAY/VFR only, I assume you would be planning SVFR due to weather?

In this case, stick to the coast and work your way up the clyde estuary to enter the zone at either Ardmore point (RW 23 in use) or Greenock (RW 05 in use).

This gives you good navigation features, and keeps you away from some fairly high ground in the zone and some reporting points that can easily be mis-identified. It also give you a good "out" in case you need to divert to Prestwick at low level.

Coming along the river from the west, you will normally be cleared not above 2000 or 3000ft routing to Dumbarton to hold, or to Kilmacolm. You probably wont be able to see the field from dumbarton in SVFR, but when cleared continue along the river which intersects right base for 23. Be aware of obstacles such as the erskine bridge and some quite tall wires just to the East of the bridge.

You SHOULD be able to see the field from Kilmacolm, but if not, trackto pick up the M8 motorway as this passes the 05 threshold.
Other routings are East Kilbride to Barrhead to hold (from SE inland), or Ballieston to the Kingston Bridge to hold (from the West over the city).
Remeber to stick the GOW (115.4) and GLW (331) on as a backup. If you are in a Bulldog, the ILS is 110.1 :ok:

As far as handling, the cheapest will be Signature, and they are very GA friendly although still not too cheap! They are also the only supplier of AVGAS at Glasgow. Their freq is 122.350.

BAA will need you to PPR with them directly to give you permission to use the airport. Details in the AIP Textual data. Dont; call air traffic for this, as they cannot authorise PPR, but do call them for an ATC briefing (ask for the Watch Manager)...they are a friendly bunch! Explain what you plan to do and they will give you some sound guidance. Also explain that you HAVE read the AIP entries! ;)

Hope this helps!

[Big Sand]

Hi Ops & Mops,
Many thanks for taking the time to come back on some hints and tips for Glasgow. You are very astute; it will be a weather SVFR and it will be in a Bulldog :ok:

I will call ATC and ask for the Watch Manager for a brief and to let him know our intentions.

In the early 80's I did my basic flying training on the UAS based at Glasgow International so I am pretty familiar with the local area but the procedures and level of traffic etc have certainly changed.

If Glasgow turns out to be rediculously expensive we may try Prestwick who I understand are a little more GA friendly on costs.;)

Ops & Mops thanks again!


Big Sand

[NorthSouth]

OK Big Sand, you've really got me confused! Why would you *plan* to make an SVFR entry to the Glasgow Zone? This suggests that you will only be doing the trip from IoM when you know or expect that the visibility at Glasgow is between 3 and 5km. If it's more than 5km you get a straight VFR entry from any of the VRPs.

If the vis is less than 5km you would almost certainly be flying the minimum 16nm sea crossing at very low level then creeping round the coast all the way from Galloway past West Freugh to Prestwick, where you would also have to do a SVFR transit of their airspace. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me.

Then there's the licence requirements. If you don't have an IMC or Instrument Rating the only routes into Glasgow which you can use in SVFR are up the Clyde or from East Kilbride. You would be able to use other routes but you would have to have vis of at least 10km which then defeats the purpose of SVFR.

Then let's be clear about PPR etc. PPR is not required at Glasgow because it has a public licence. What is required is a handling agent. In addition they say in the AIP that "notification" to ATC is required for non-business GA traffic. That's PNR not PPR and in any case it's made to air traffic (=NATS), not to BAA. Frankly if I was paying Signature Flight Support a zillion for the privilege of a piece of shortbread in the lounge I'd get them to make the phone call to ATC. Save your cash for the extraordinarily long extra routeing and spare underwear you'll need by insisting on flying it in very marginal visibility.
NS

[Ops and Mops]

Ok, so the deal has changed again with regards to PPR.....it seems that just "booking in" with ATC is OK now with regard to private GA. However from recent experience, I would still let BAA Airfield Ops know of your intentions! The last time I flew in there recently I got a bollocking for not getting PPR from them!!

North South

I am sure you are just trying to be helpful, however you come across as bad as the CAA "Thought Police"! I'm not sure that you are in a position to dictate to others about when and how they fly their own aircraft, instructor or not! Big Sand may have a single engine IR for all you know and might be taking into account all eventualities in case the weather turns rotten en route. That's sensible planning in my book!

Big Sand

The other options available to you are:

1) Speak to WeegyOne if you are coming across for the event in Aug, and see if they will "host" you with regard to parking on Apron J and provide fuel. You can then tell the BAA than the UAS are your handling agents, and this would take Signature etc out of the loop. Landing fee would still be collected by BAA though unless the UAS negotiate something in time with them.

2) If you fly into Prestwick, book into Prestwick Flight Centre at Apron E. They have AVGAS and manned ops/eng facilities from 0800-2000, will get you a discount on the landing fee, and help you out with transport etc. No handling fee required!

[NorthSouth]

OK O&M, apologies if it came across negatively, the point I was making was that I couldn't see how planning to go in SVFR would be of any benefit because the circumstances in which you'd need it are so narrowly defined that you'd hardly ever meet those conditions. Even if BS has an IR (but is flying a day-VFR only aircraft so can't do an IFR approach), it all boils down to the difference between 3km vis and 5km vis.
NS

[Ops and Mops]

it all boils down to the difference between 3km vis and 5km vis

Having flown in both regularly, the practical difference in vis between 5km and 3km is quite remarkable, especially at low level when the world takes on a very different hue!

Remember also that SVFR traffic has to be seperated from IFR traffic. Preparing for the differences in clearance limits and also the most "user friendly" route in poor vis helps when entering busy airspace in SVFR where holding is quite likely to generate a gap in inbound IFR sequences to integrate SVFR traffic. SVFR can also be declared by ATC or requested by a pilot when the cloud ceiling is 1500ft or below.

[radar707]

SVFR can be requested at any time, especially if you want to do a bit of low flying (negates the need to observe the 1500ft rule!!)

[Ops and Mops]

the 1500ft rule doesn't exist anymore.....:E

Why on earth would anyone want to ask for SVFR to low fly? Even in SVFR the terms of Rule 5 still apply as well as those of Article 73 and 74!

Not a good message to send out radar707, even if you are no longer at Glasgow!

[Big Sand]

Ops & Mops,
Thanks for the 'Top Cover'. I think you are a few steps ahead of me here and have hit the objective of the 'Glasgow Fly-in' 100% correct.:E
I take N&S's comments on board

I have arranged some 'hosting' over the weekend coutesy of HM. There will be a two ship formation from IOM and of course all is very Wx depending - hence the SVFR and alt. Prestwick. One of the guys has used the Flight Centre at Prestwick and vouched for an EXCELLENT service so it's a useful standby.

I suspected that the Weegy One was ex Park Circus and will take up your suggestion.

As they say 'Hope for the best and plan for the worst'. Will you be at THQ on the 4th Old Boy? I think I owe you a pint for the Top Cover.....:ok:

Big Sand

[Ops and Mops]

No worries.

See PM's regarding the weekend.....

Just for the last bit of info, Glasgow will not allow formation recoveries or departues by anyone than UGSAS. Be aware you may have to split for individual recoveries once inside the zone!

Have fun!

[Spitoon]

Total thread creep - I'm getting a lot of that just now! ButSVFR can be requested at any time, especially if you want to do a bit of low flying (negates the need to observe the 1500ft rule!!)The Rules of the Air Regulations provides the interpretation of SFR as below:
‘special VFR flight’ means a flight—
(i) made at any time in a control zone which is Class A airspace or made in any other control zone in either Instrument Meteorological Conditions or at night....

Last time I looked at Glasgow's airspace it wasn't Class A and therefore a SVFR clearance can only be issued when the weather condition preclude flight in VMC or at night. Of course, there's nothing to stop a pilot requesting a SVFR clearance at other times but it would be surprising if one were issued.

Admittedly MATS Part 1 doesn't seem very clear on this topic but it has changed over the years. Time for another review, perhaps?