SWANWICK MIL - Phraseology

[beamer]

My company frequently utilises the BHX-MOSUN procedure to join control airspace southbound towards BHD. Upon contact with Swanwick we are required to elect a radar advisory service - so far so good. On occasion we have been given the instruction 'turn hard left/right' to avoid what is invariably low-level GA traffic well below our level, normally FL80 +. I just pose the question whether an instruction 'turn immediate left/right' might be more suitable - the former instruction may be more suitable for military traffic rather than a 757/767 with a full complement of passengers on board. This may be simply a question of semantics but a younger F/O may react in an inappropriate manner rather than disconnecting the autopilot and beginning a smooth balanced turn in order to comply with ATC.

Not a criticism of our friends at Swanwick just an observation !

[chevvron]

Surely just the phrase 'avoiding action turn left/right ....' would be more appropriate, that's what we tend to say as it imparts the reason for the turn, and the fact that the controller wants a quick response.

[Diddley Dee]

Beamer
Would your "smooth balanced turn" ensure seperation at FL80 if the other aircraft happened not to have mode C fitted and was also at FL80 unbeknown to you or the controller that issued the hard right / left AA turn?

Incidentally do any of your companies pilots, whilst being handcuffed by policy into electing RAS even when in beautiful VMC ever "state happy to continue" under RAS?

Chev, I'm assuming that the controller has already stated avoiding action & has just amplified the need to turn by adding "hard" ?

DD

[chevvron]

I was in the jump seat going into Schipol once when the instruction came 'turn left immediately hdg...'. Three heads immediately turned to look out the right side of the flight deck whilst the captain also dialled the new hdg in to the a/p!

[Diddley Dee]

Chev

Dont doubt it for a second.

However i have heard on many many occassions controllers ampifying the AA by saying "avoiding action turn hard L / R" This is especially true in the vale of York where we work CAT in class G & some crews take an age to begin to turn...

DD

[chevvron]

We also 'control' CAT in class G. As some pilots are a bit slow to respond to changes of heading, amplification of the urgency by saying 'avoiding action' tends to work wonders with pilot's response time!!

[LXGB]

On occasion we have been given the instruction 'turn hard left/right'

It's not standard phraseology for mil or civ uk ATSOCAS.

When I give "avoiding action" to RAS traffic I find the phrase itself conveys enough urgency. Sounds like you were talking to a wannabe fighter controller :) Did they spill the beverages down the back?

Best Regards,
LXGB :ok:

[whowhenwhy]

I always found 3 options on a theme:

There's plenty of time - "Traffic right 2 o'clock 20 miles, crossing right left, indicating??, if not sighted turn right hdg ??"

There's not a lot of time - "Avoiding action, turn right hdg ??, traffic was ???"

There's no time - "Avoiding action, turn hard right hdg ???, traffic was???"

Generally speaking I've always had to do the last one because, even though I've previously given an avoiding action turn, the pilot has just dialled the hdg into the autopilot and the ac is turning leisurely to ensure no gin is spilt. In Class G where ac are popping up from below the base of radar cover or fast-jets that were 20 miles away diverging, suddenly converge, when we say avoiding action, it means MOVE!!

Hope that makes it all a little clearer!

[Widger]

Doesn't help when a Civvy ATS provider ignores traffic outside their zone (cos they can!) and just chucks the traffic at the next ATS provider........".identified, avoiding action...."


"Good VMC, happy to continue" is always a good phrase!:ok:

[Chilli Monster]

Widger - on a par with the Military ATS provider who runs traffic up to the boundary of CAS promising a handoff for the transit and then tells it to freecall with 2 miles to run.

People in glass houses etc ;)

[Widger]

But surely that should not be a problem within a known traffic environment and you will have already taken account of the joiner!

Touche

;) back at cha!

[Chilli Monster]

Widger

a) The aircraft was a crosser, not a joiner, so unknown (and un pre-noted by the military unit)

b) On this occasion I was the PILOT, not the ATCO and had asked said military zone controller if he would be handing me over in good time for the transit. He promised me yes, then reneged on the promise. (2 miles at 160 Kts isn't funny)

Want to re-think things now? ;)

[Widger]

Obviously, without hearing the other side of the story and without knowing the full facts, I could not possibly comment. Sounds like a terrible piece of control though.

Did you ring the unit up afterwards?

;)

[Chilli Monster]

Yes - funnily enough it's never happened since :)

[ATCO Fred]

I just pose the question whether an instruction 'turn immediate left/right' might be more suitable - the former instruction may be more suitable for military traffic rather than a 757/767 with a full complement of passengers on board
I'll think you'll find the answer is that the instruction is more suitable for the classification of the airspace in which you are flying and has got nothing to do with the airplane or who is providing the service.
This may be simply a question of semantics but a younger F/O may react in an inappropriate manner rather than disconnecting the autopilot and beginning a smooth balanced turn in order to comply with ATC.


Beamer clearly you are somewhat more aware of the Glass G issue than some of your colleagues! In class G see and avoid is the final layer of safety for your passengers and all too often I have been on thick end of cockpit ignorance on this issue: Cue actual incident that happened to me (many times).

C/S Avoiding action turn left hdg XYZ pop up traffic was 12 O'clock 6 miles no height information.
Silence.

C/S Avoiding action turn left hdg XYZ pop up traffic was 12 O'clock 3 miles no height information.
Silence.

C/S Avoiding action turn hard left hdg XYZ pop up traffic was 12 O'clock 1.5 miles no height information.

C/S Was that for us? (putting down Coffee/Paper/Stewardess delete as appropriate)

C/S Avoiding action, turn hard left, ahh disregard! (Blips have now merged and passed). to avoid what is invariably low-level GA traffic well below our level, normally FL80 +. ........ But what if it was a glider or a Mil trainer that can operate FL80+ with a transponder failure!

In class G airspace CAT drivers must be 100% aware of the airspace classification and the limitations of the Air Traffic Services on offer.

Beamer If you object to the phrase "Hard Turn" then you must ensure your crew is prepared for the idiosyncrasies of Class G. When the controller offers avoiding action you are turning before he finishes the instructions and one of you is always clearing the direction of flight (visually). Never get complacent and kick back and relax as you would on the normal ATS route structure.

I always felt vulnerable when providing ATSOCAS to CAT flights in Class G airspace as generally (especially with non UK crews) there was little appreciation of the conditions of a RAS (pilots’ responsibilities)
Quote from a previous thread:
Absolutely agree! The whole essence of the application of a RAS is the formalizing of the VERBAL contract between the pilot and the controller. Cue
Cont " Clear of CAS what type of service do you require?"
AC " IFR Please"
Cont " Do you require RAS, RIS is FIS"
AC " Which one is the best"
This actually happened to me, granted several years ago.

Personally, I would welcome SRG regulating that passengers remain seat belted for flights in Class G airspace and thus the guy's up-front are better equipped to deal with some of the dynamic scenarios that exist. Or as Widger said Good VMC, happy to continue" is always a good phrase! but I don't think the airline insurance company will allow you to do that.
Ultimately the buck stops with you, generally (I said generally, I know a lot of X-Mil CAT pilots) when it comes to a RAS in class G airspace the controller is normally aware of the conditions of the service whereas, from my own personal experinces, the actions of the pilot would indicate that they are not.

[CAP493]

I just pose the question whether an instruction 'turn immediate left/right' might be more suitable - the former instruction may be more suitable for military traffic rather than a 757/767 with a full complement of passengers on board...[/QUOTE
Quite so - indeed, the question that should actually be asked is whether the provision of radar advisory in any form is entirely suitable for "a 757/767 with a full complement of passengers on board" and the answer from a passenger comfort perspective and a safety management angle (notwithstanding the utterances from the CAA), is a resounding "No". There are of course, several areas and airports in the UK where flight in Class G is unavoidable and so RAS is the only solution to the requirement for some sort of separation. However, where there's an option not to do-so, any civil pilot that chooses to fly in uncontrolled airspace must accept sudden and sometimes violent heading changes under a RAS if ATC is to comply with its commitment to provide standard separation from unknown (and intentions unknown) other aircraft.
And before the military flying fraternity starts frothing at the mouth, one has to observe that if RAS is as safe and acceptable for 'heavy transport' aircraft as radar control, then presumably both Brize and Lyneham have controlled airspace for other reasons... :hmm:

[QUOTE]I would welcome SRG regulating that passengers remain seat belted for flights in Class G airspace...
Hang on! Was that a pig downwind in the circuit...??

SRG cannot mandate anything that would suggest that flight in Class G under RAS is less safe than flight in controlled airspace under radar control simply because the other side of the CAA (Directorate of Airspace Policy) takes the public position that RAS delivers the necessary target level of safety.

From an airline operating company's perspective, however sensible, it would also be difficult to impose this sort of measure since its passengers would then be bound to ask why, and the inevitable answer would have to be given.

Rearrange the following words to form a well-known phrase or saying:

a worms it's of can. :ooh:

[Spitoon]

Rearrange the following words to form a well-known phrase or saying:
Sums it up succinctly!

But even though a number of airports are not directly connected to the CAS/airway system I still find it surprising to see flights that choose to take a longer routing through class G in preference to a longer overall distance but a far shorter exposure to the risks of class G.

[beamer]

ATCO Fred

I thank you for your reply which was rather more useful than some others !

My company wishes us to adopt Radar Advisory rather than Radar Information so 'good vmc on top' is not appropriate.

My post was not a criticism per se of military ATCO's and the service they provide between BHX and Mosun - I merely made an observation that some
repeat some controllers use the term in question without any prior information.Of course the uncontrolled traffic in question is 95% of the time low-level GA traffic which is not a factor but of course ATC do not know that when it suddenly appears on their screen. As the handover between BHX and Swan is minimum FL60 this traffic is normally not a hazard but as you rightly say it is class G airspace after all.

As an ex-military pilot I do understand the problems of the guys down at Swanwick - I'm sure they have no great desire to be looking after large civilian airliners cutting across G airspace. I'm sure that a 'hard left' pulling to the buffet would be enormous fun but I'm not sure the cabin crew and pax would be quite so impressed - G & T's not normally served till the cruise anyway. It is important that civilian operators stress to their pilots the potential hazards associated with Class G and particuarly important for more experienced pilots to pass on some gen to their younger colleagues !

We utilise this piece of airspace when it is available for the simple reason that it avoids delays over London and allows a shorter route both inbound and outbound = cost-saving. Whether we should be doing so is primarily an issue for Operations and Airline management - areas sadly in which pilots have increasingly less influence.

[ATCO Fred]

Beamer
I'm sure that a 'hard left' pulling to the buffet would be enormous fun but I'm not sure the cabin crew and pax would be quite so impressed
It is important that civilian operators stress to their pilots the potential hazards associated with Class G
And thus the crux - the SLF (most) are completely unaware that a portion of the flight is conducted outside of CAS and the Airlines DO NOT want them to be aware. However, at the end of the day the burden of risk is being carried by the ATCOs and Flight deck crew - and all credit to the boys and girls on both sides keeping the punters safe day in day out.
Fred

[ebenezer]

We utilise this piece of airspace when it is available for the simple reason that it avoids delays over London and allows a shorter route both inbound and outbound = cost-saving. Whether we should be doing so is primarily an issue for Operations and Airline management - areas sadly in which pilots have increasingly less influence.
True enough: but perhaps quite soon, the insurance companies that underwrite the airline's risk by insuring the airframes might ultimately take a view - and negate the cost-savings achieved through routeing direct in Class G airspace, by loading the premiums...:hmm: