JP1

[JP1]

Qualifying X-country tomorrow (weather permitting), therefore going over the correct RTF.

Basically I find that CAP413 is contradictory.

May 2006 edition of cap413 chapter 6 page 6..for arrival VFR into a zone
"Kennington Approach G-DCDN"

Chapter 10 Page 34 for enroute...
"Wrayton Information G-ABCD request Flight Information Service"


I have been told , by instructors/RTF lecturers that it's

Station
Callsign
Request


I am going to say tomorrow.

Station
Callsign
request zone entry


Why does CAP413 contradict itself.

And what is the general consensus of the correct message

thanks
JP1

[BackPacker]

You just snipped a bit too much off those quotes for me to really understand what you want, and I don't have CAP413 here so I can't look them up. But as far as I'm can tell, your question is about when you only use "station, callsign" on initial contact, and when you use "station, callsign, request" on initial contact.

I'm not sure how the exact rule is formulated, but I think this all has got to do with an anticipation by the controller on how much you're going to say on your second call, and whether the controller should anticipate a lenghty message or just a short thing.

And that, in turn, has to do with what the controller already knows about you.

So if you are entering the zone for landing, and the controller already knows, somehow, that you might be coming, an initial call "station, callsign" is sufficient. As soon as the controller comes back with "callsign, station" he knows he's going to get something along the lines of "station, callsign, position suchandsuch, altitude bla QNH bla, information bla, for landing". Short and precise. Controller doesn't have to think about a minute ahead.

But if you start talking to a controller who might not have the foggiest idea on what you're going to want, but you may have a very lengthy request to pass, the controller needs to anticipate, for instance, landing clearances he's going to have to give in the next half minute. So based on your short description of the request, he's going to have to decide whether to put you on "standby" for a minute, or to let you "pass your message". Imagine you all of a sudden going off with a full message "station, callsign, a Piper Warrior, Pee Aaaa twenty-eight-one sixty one, Vee eF aR from thisunpronouncableScottishname to thatlongandunpronouncableWelshname via reporting point longname one, longname two, longname three (pause to take a breath) altitude 3500 feet QNH 1013 squawking 7000, climbing to flight level four five after B, request combined MATZ penetration (pause to take a breath) via this reporting point and the other, traffic on final and traffic on base in sight (another breath). Also request the weather for suchandsuch and the local QFE and be advised my ETA for XXX is 30" you might just have blocked the frequency for too long to issue a landing clearance to another aircraft in time.

So if you have a short request, just "station, callsign". If you have a longer request, "station, callsign, type of request". At least, that's how I see it. Maybe there's another hard rule, but then I don't know what that would be.

As an aside, in the Netherlands we have "Dutch Mil" covering the whole of the Netherlands with just one frequency. They have multiple transmitters to be able to offer low-level coverage throughout the country. To select the proper transmitter, they've got to know where you are. So on your initial call it's important to say the rough location where you are right now. "Dutch Mil, PH-XXX, south of Rotterdam" is the preferred initial call.

[JP1]

Thanks BP,

At the end of the day I know it's pretty simple stuff, and the RTF procedures give a framework to communicate. The actual situation dictating what you might say.

It just seems that something ( an inital call) that may be considered a basic and fundamental apsect of RTF seems to have a few variations documented in CAP413.

Probably like a few others RTF is my weakest area, so I need to adopt the correct proceudre so that it becomes second nature and then there is one less thing to worry about.

Thanks for the help.
JP1