Quality of posts [Archive]

stiknruda

13th Jul 2007, 08:12

On a different thread, Fuji Abound wrote
In fact (and forgive me if I sound pompous) but I find myself posting less on PPRuNe because of the "quality" of so many more of the threads these days. Is it a worrying indication of the training new pilots are receiving or is it the increased tendency to post wind ups - which are fine only if they are amusing or helpfully provactive rather than just daft.

I find myself whole heartedly agreeing, post far less than I used to and have noticed far fewer posts these days from folk whose opinions I respected.
Are FA and I alone and if not what is to be done about the malaise?

J.A.F.O.

13th Jul 2007, 08:28

Stik

Afraid that you might be right; two or three years ago I'd spend a good deal of time reading, learning, vicariously soaking up the experience of others.

Recently I've found that I look at the topics, maybe click on one or two - like this one - then wander off elsewhere.

To be honest, I'd thought that it was me but maybe not.

IO540

13th Jul 2007, 08:33

I haven't been on here for long enough (believe it or not!) but I do vaguely recall this place being (a) a lot busier, and (b) a lot more full of aggressive idiots. Both seem to have largely departed.

Where have they gone?

They haven't gone to Usenet, which (on aviation) has suffered the same fate in terms of traffic; in fact much worse.

A lot of them have probably gone to the Flyer forum, where they have great volumes but the average quality of posts is as dreadful as ever, and most of the top posters write drivel.

Maybe this is a wider problem?

I've been "online" since c. 1995 and back then Usenet ruled the roost. It remains the #1 technical resource for software and hardware development. However, "discussion" has moved to the WWW (presumably because nobody knows how to set up Outlook Express for usenet) and now there are thousands of WWW-based forums. Everything seems to have a forum these days. Even an obscure brand of a tablet computer has its own forum - even though it is largely ignored by the manufacturer and is thus next to useless.

However, I am not aware of any UK oriented aviation forums where the ex pruners might have gone. There are a few others but they are quite obscure.

stickandrudderman

13th Jul 2007, 08:39

Careful, you might give us new boys an inferiority complex!

BRL

13th Jul 2007, 09:51

I think the very same thing every now and again. I find the forum moves forward and is a great place to read then it will die down and take a step back for a while, then it will pick up again and so on.

The forum (Private Flying) is far busier than it has been for some time now. We regularly get over 100 users at any one time, except of course the middle of the night when it is quiet in the UK but it is still growing as we speak. I have been impressed with the amount of traffic we have been seeing recently.

As for quality of posts, there is very little I can do about that! Can't wade in and delete the crap just on a whim in case it is a genuine question, these tend to get the right answer then go off on one shortly after. I would be here all day deleting posts if that was the case so I will leave them, unless of course the thread really has gone down hill then I will close it.

Are FA and I alone and if not what is to be done about the malaise? Very good question. I just think it will pick up again soon. Watch when the summer flying really kicks in when everyone is out and about, the forum will be busy then, good spells of flying weather tend to have that effect. :)

Mariner9

13th Jul 2007, 09:55

Watch when the summer flying really kicks in

Sitting under the rain and low overcast here in Cardiff wondering when that'll be! :sad:

englishal

13th Jul 2007, 10:05

I only occasionally post nowadays - Maybe it is evolution, when I first started posting on here in 2001 I probably posted as much tosh as some of these current posts but just didn't know it ;) I post of Flyer too, but that has started to become really crap recently. Maybe I'll give up and just start doing something productive instead!

High Wing Drifter

13th Jul 2007, 10:06

I do vaguely recall this place being (a) a lot busier, and (b) a lot more full of aggressive idiots.
Exactly my memory too!

BackPacker

13th Jul 2007, 10:17

Slashdot.org (geek/IT related forum) uses a moderation system where all registered users can mod other users and posts up or down based on the quality of their posts. Slashdot even uses this to hide posts by default unless you select "show all" but a less agressive variant would be to just list the mod points of the poster next to his/her name.

I am not registered on slashdot, only post there anonymously every now and then. Does anybody have more experience than me with such a system, or another system where, somehow, the readers can rate the quality of a post or poster? Would it be an idea for here?

I know that pprune has the ability to rate whole threads, but other than the occasional sticky, nobody seems to be using that system.

Pitts2112

13th Jul 2007, 10:35

In a stroke of bizarre irony, I find myself agreeing with Stik on this one. I've found the posts pretty boring and samey. There seems to be a lot of stuff about which GPS to buy, stuff about IFR flying, and always someone asking the same question about how to fly in the US. All valid topics, just none that particularly interest me. Most of the stuff lately seems to be about information exchange rather than sharing experiences, which I consider much more interesting.

In fact, I've pretty much given up posting and read the site far less frequently than I used to.

For what it's worth, the Flyer forum has become even worse, populated mostly by a few notables who seem to not have jobs so have all day to post really inane rubbish to the point where I don't even go into one of their sub-forums any more and I don't read anything posted by these particular idiots.

Have we all done all the interesting topics to death and have nothing interesting left to say to, or ask of, each other?

Pitts2112

IO540

13th Jul 2007, 10:51

Have we all done all the interesting topics to death and have nothing interesting left to say to, or ask of, each other?

That's the question.

I suppose, if you are looking for quality postings (however that is defined) then you are looking for an intersection between several populations:

a) pilots who do some real flying;
b) pilots who like to write about it;
c) pilots who have the time to write about it;
d) pilots (incl. newbies) who have a question to ask

I know for a fact that most pilots who fly really high hours (200+/year) do not participate on any pilot forum. They have relatively normal busy lives. They have read some forums, waded through the drivel, and never touched them again. Some remain on aircraft type specific forums but TBH those suffer from the same problem of a small group of twats posting drivel.

The best way to deal with twats is to pointedly ignore them or, if they make a particularly misleading statement, ask for a reference.

What destroys a forum fastest is aggression and personal attacks. There is a lot less of this here now.

FullyFlapped

13th Jul 2007, 11:27

It seems to me that most of the threads I read nowadays are rehashes of stuff I've seen before : but then again, I've been reading this board for 5 or 6 years now, and since an awful lot of the stuff on here is of the "I'm new - which pencil should I buy?" variety, which many of us have seen dozens of times, it's not particularly surprising that the board is often yawn-inducing. And of course, the longer you stick around ...

The reactions to posts are often equally predictable (and mind-numbingly so, sometimes) : with the "I've been flying 80 years, and in my day ..." camp on one side, and the "100-hours-in-a-Cessna-152-heavy" team on the other. Both keen to impress with their accumulated wisdom, and both equally keen to refuse to acknowledge the extremity of their experience levels whilst dealing with other points of view.

I think the speed with which the personal aggro sometimes starts is quite possibly higher than it used to be : but perhaps that's just the way the world is going (or perhaps I'm just getting older and more crabby - I certainly have less patience with it than I used to !)

It remains a fact that PPRuNe is an awfully useful repository of information for those who fly : a lot of it is crap, but much of it is great. And there are undoubtedly gems from time to time : threads which interest and/or horrify in equal measure (the one based on that poor kid sent out of the circuit on his 2nd solo who then stalled it in will stay with me for a long time) : and at the end of the day, I like aviation and things related to it, and the forum alternatives are meagre to say the least ! :{

I don't really think it's worth getting too precious about this: it's just an internet forum when all said and done - and there's always the "off" button on that monitor !

FF :ok:

stiknruda

13th Jul 2007, 11:27

Well - in a bitter twist of irony, I find myself agreeing with 2112 and with 540! Maybe I need to change my name to a number!

Perhaps I should write about my latest formation trg wheeze - Battle formation, 500m apart at 500', 150mph - it's the 90 degree turns that make it fun!

Nige321

13th Jul 2007, 11:45

At the risk of adding to the problem...:}

How many forum members does it takes to change a light bulb?

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed
14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently
7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs
1 to move it to the Lighting section
2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section
7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs
5 to flame the spell checkers
3 to correct spelling/grammar flames
6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid
2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"
15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct
19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum
11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum
36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty
7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs
4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's
3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group
13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too"
5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy
4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"
13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"
1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

OpenCirrus619

13th Jul 2007, 11:56

:D:D:D

3 "seniors" who will say that if its not a bayonet fitting its not a proper light bulb and those who use screw fittings don't know they're born. (Light-a-matic pah).

Twiddle

13th Jul 2007, 12:31

Top, you've forgotten the 15 people that will insist that we shouldn't speculate on why the other lightbulb failed in the first place and instead wait for the official report to come out.

And the 21 that will then state that we can all learn from experience and hopefully save another bulb from being snuffed out early in it's bright (although short) career.......

vancouv

13th Jul 2007, 12:47

And those that think light bulbs are responsible for falling standards and everything would be better if we'd stuck to gas lights.

PompeyPaul

13th Jul 2007, 13:39

Private Flying - PPL training
Private Flying - Qualified

That way all the relative newbies can post in "PPL Training" and all of the qualified guys that discuss in the in's and out's of aviation can avoid newbies ?

SkyHawk-N

13th Jul 2007, 13:49

I'm finding myself using this forum less and less and as a result doing more and more 'stuff' at work, this is a highly unsatisfactory situation.

How about talking about aircraft taking off from a moving conveyor belt? ;)

Mariner9

13th Jul 2007, 13:58

That way all the relative newbies can post in "PPL Training" and all of the qualified guys that discuss in the in's and out's of aviation can avoid newbies ?

Speaking personally, I find that the qualifications & experience (or lack thereof) of the posters is irrelevant. However, I can get frustrated by inaccurate or even incorrect responses to questions, and often annoyed at the sometimes personal abuse that can fly about here from people of all experience levels.

BackPacker

13th Jul 2007, 14:38

That way all the relative newbies can post in "PPL Training" and all of the qualified guys that discuss in the in's and out's of aviation can avoid newbies ?

And what happens if a newbie asks a good question which can only be answered properly by a more experienced person?

My experience with such a split is that the newbie forum will quickly become silent while all the newbies migrate to the qualified forum, since that's the place where they can receive answers to their questions. Unless there's enough qualified people who volunteer to keep track of the newbie forum.

What does help, probably, is creating a sort of FAQ list, where the questions that pop up every few weeks, are covered in great detail. Like I did with the sticky about flight training in the US.

shortstripper

13th Jul 2007, 15:06

Light bulbs? :rolleyes: Pah! What tosh!

I sometimes wonder why I bother reading post on this forum, let alone contributing :hmm: ..... Oh! hang on, what was the question again? :ugh:

SS :p

soay

13th Jul 2007, 15:28

How many forum members does it takes to change a light bulb?
Now, is that a spelling or a grammar mistake? ;)

IO540

13th Jul 2007, 15:54

Well, this forum is really famous now

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=34463

:)

Whirlybird

13th Jul 2007, 16:13

I've been reading and posting on this forum since.....it started! Can anyone else here claim that? Come to think of it, where are they all - LowNSlow, Rightstuffer, BEagler, and a few others I can't remember. And Hungry Pilot, who thought we shouldn't be here...who turned out not to even be a pilot. I think BEagle was in at the beginning too. Probably Genghis the Engineer too. We wanted our own forum, and despite complaints that this was a PROFESSIONAL pilots' rumour network, we finally got it.

Since then the main change I've noticed is that it's got bigger - enormously, hugely, bigger. For a while we all knew each other, but that's not really the case any more. We had fly-ins quite often, and we didn't worry too much where they were to - we just wanted to meet each other, often for the first time. And we thought this was so, so much better than the Flyer Email List, which was probably the only other similar thing around back then.

Apart from that...it goes up and down, more serious, more trivial, more or less aggressive, more or less downright bizarre. I come here less because I have less time, and because whereas back then aviation was still new and exciting for me, that isn't really the case any more. It's not that I don't still enjoy it, but in a different way. I've seen people come and go, and topics come and go and come round again, but that's normal and as it should be. Everything changes, and if it doesn't, it probably stagnates. And yes, every now and then people say that the forum isn't as good as it used to be, and that gets discussed for a while too.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....and all that.

rustle

13th Jul 2007, 18:54

A lot of them have probably gone to the Flyer forum, where they have great volumes but the average quality of posts is as dreadful as ever, and most of the top posters write drivel.

With a couple of notable exceptions (keef/'Dutch/'Donkeys) I agree.

I don't bother there any more as some of the top-53 posters are too strange and never accept when they're wrong. (Frequently).

kevmusic

13th Jul 2007, 19:18

Interesting thread. I've been a PPruner for about 18 months, compared with the 26 years I've been in and around flying and flying people. Face to face, I've found nothing but camaraderie, helpfulness, friendship and shared enthusiasm. I've found these qualities on PPrune too, but I was shocked at the level of ridicule, abuse and aggression that I've seen (and suffered!:hmm:) here. The shock was mainly due to the contrast with the way people help each other in real flying. They bend over backwards to help and accommodate and I've never seen anyone talk like that to each other in real life in the flying world. It can make posting a daunting experience.

Agree about the drivel too, though I'm probably as guilty as anyone.......:}

soay

13th Jul 2007, 19:30

I was shocked at the level of ridicule, abuse and aggression that I've seen (and suffered!) here.
The Guardian reported on some interesting research on this phenomenon yesterday. You can read the article here (http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,2123669,00.html).

J.A.F.O.

13th Jul 2007, 19:55

Nige

You are spot on, incredibly perceptive and very funny. Have we just become bored and jaded or have things really changed?

Warped Factor

13th Jul 2007, 20:00

rustle wrote:

With a couple of notable exceptions (keef/'Dutch/'Donkeys) I agree.

I don't bother there any more as some of the top-53 posters are too strange and never accept when they're wrong. (Frequently).

You're not even going to look after your own cricket forum?

Bet you don't get another one here ;)

rustle

13th Jul 2007, 20:17

You're not even going to look after your own cricket forum?

Bet you don't get another one here ;)

Rugby starts soon. :}

IO540

13th Jul 2007, 20:20

I think one factor which kills off a forum is when it gets cliquey i.e. when the top posters know each other personally and use it like a pub. The flyer forum is a lot like a pub now, but the clearest example is ukga.com where practically every thread degenerates into drivel very fast - they all know each other (in fact I gather that forum was started to support a particular airfield community; Sherburn or perhaps Cardiff?).

What I like about pprune is the lack of clique. There isn't much need to read between the lines. I do this stuff for fun while having a cup of tea, and don't have time for posting thousands of one-liners. OTOH I know many will disagree with this, enjoying meetings, fly-ins, etc.

The Guardian article is unsuprising. I know of one forum where people do mostly use their own names, yet I have seen some vicious attacks there. Presumably because they think they will never face the target. However, I would never have anything much to do with the real people afterwards. Also, with nicknames, you never quite know whether the target of your attack might be somebody rather closer to home ;)

Thankfully there are much fewer attacks here now, and it's fairly easy to deal with them.

eharding

13th Jul 2007, 21:27

Perhaps I should write about my latest formation trg wheeze - Battle formation, 500m apart at 500', 150mph - it's the 90 degree turns that make it fun!

Ah - assisted turns....the 90 degree case is the easy one, its the call '37 port....go' from the lead being a comedian that does your head in.

Excellent as a mental exercise, but not a lot of practical use for use piston souls, it being a fast-jet flat-knacker in-the-weeds type of thing.

It was, however, practising the above that I had my first, and hopefully last, experience of taking off as a four ship, and coming back as a pair and a singleton, at the EGSX formation week a while back.

As for the quality of the posts...what are people expecting - a free weather forecast, next week's lottery numbers and a money-off voucher at Tesco with every posting?

stiknruda

13th Jul 2007, 22:10

Ed - Shackle, shackle - GO!

And as for being not much use........... mmmmnn, but hell it's fun!!

Whirlybird

14th Jul 2007, 06:48

Hmmmm...less than two days, and already.........TWO PAGES! Maybe we're a bit jaded with all this discussion of aviation and stuff. Let's start a new forum - maybe even a whole new website - on what makes a good poster, subject, thread, discussion, etc. We could take our findings to....well, everyone! :):):)

rustle

14th Jul 2007, 11:43

Warped Factor, FTAOD my comment about notable exceptions referred only to "notable exceptions within the top-ten posters (who are active)"...

Anyone between #11 & #51 are Good Chaps :ok::E;)

Rod1

15th Jul 2007, 11:26

I thought it would be interesting to get a comparison to Pprune by starting the Flyer thread. If you compare the comments, and the attacks and the language used in the two you gain a considerable incite into some of the individuals in both places.

Both can be good, both can be awful, but a small number of formats being unfriendly can significantly impact the popularity of one over the other. Flyer is more popular, which must mean that more people feel it has the right mix.

I just wish it would stop raining and I could go flying!

Rod1

Keef

15th Jul 2007, 14:24

As someone who reads both PPRuNe and Flyer (and even uses the same name on both), my observation is that both go up and down in quality. The interesting questions and the useful answers have all been done thoroughly, so to the "old hands" they are repeats and boring. To the newbie who isn't adept with the search facility, they are something else. We oldies have to live with that.

Two things have struck me on both forums:

There are folks who don't shout about who they are (or have been), but whose wisdom and aviation knowledge are beyond what most of us could dream of. Yet those folks get insulted by low-houred (or low-brained) self-appointed experts on both forums. Most don't retaliate - they say nothing, or just leave quietly. I had dinner a few weeks ago with a former RAF aerobatic display pilot and a senior training captain for a major airline (not BA). Both had been told they know nothing ... by a PPL stude with an overinflated ego. They'd both also been "corrected" by a qualified but still less than omniscient recent IR. They chose in both cases to remain anonymous, so I will continue to respect that.

There are trolls on both whose sole aim is to drive people away from the forum they have decided to descend upon. I received enough gratuitous insults a few months ago on PPRuNe (not in here, I hasten to add) that I decided to make my visits very rare.

flower

15th Jul 2007, 15:54

I wish people would stop pitting this forum and flyer forum against each other. Both are good and both have their faults.
As I posted on flyer there is room for everyone. One forum mentioned above yes is the worst I have ever come across but I don't think most even consider it any longer anyway but flip both Flyer and PPRuNe have practically all the same membership anyway so why an issue.
There is no doubt for those of us who have been around a while that we see replications of posts but we ourselves probably posted items when we first started that others took a big sigh too.
When we all meet up at fly ins who would guess where each persons loyalty lies and lets face it it doesn't matter anyway they are Internet forums they don't change the world however self important we all may think we are.

rustle

15th Jul 2007, 19:27

IO, don't know if you ever bother with the non-av forum elsewhere, but no doubt you'll be pleased to know that you and I have been singled-out for analysis by the armchair expert. :rolleyes: :ugh:

Fuji Abound

15th Jul 2007, 19:50

you and I have been singled-out for analysis

Mmmm, I liked to read that.

Sadly I dont know where it is.

Whirlybird

15th Jul 2007, 20:42

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=34463&start=45.

I hope that works.

rustle

15th Jul 2007, 21:02

It would have worked, but the offending post has been removed ;)

Not by the poster, but by a moderator.

Moderators: +1 :D
Poster: -1 :hmm:

Fuji Abound

15th Jul 2007, 21:04

Thanks Whirls.

There is some fairly firmly expressed criticism of this place from IO540 on pprune. He knows a lot about his type of flying but sometimes tends to give the impression, perhaps inadvertently, that anyone who does not fly IFR in a fast complex using GPS must be a luddite numptoid. He seems also to have an interest in the further flung reaches of aviation law, although as a mere lawyer it sometimes seems to me that he posits a view or poses a question about a scenario which would test the rules in what looks like a rather pointless fashion, but perhaps there's method in it which I can't see.
On the wider subject of banter, aviation and bantering seem to me to be inseparable. Line shooting, spoofing and joshing are as much parts of aviation tradition as bad food and worse coffee. To this heady mix we sometimes add robust debate, participation in which is entirely voluntary, but here we run up against the curious modern concept that we must all be fluffy and huggy all of the time and aren't allowed to respond scornfully to unreasonable statements on serious subjects.
It appears from pprune that Rustle has flounced, which is a pity, but he has seemed to be really grumpy lately, whereas others of us are just pretending.

Is that allowed - cross posting from anothe place?

However, I just loved it as a piece of English.

PS Wished I had known there was something offensive - I could have cross posted that as well - I wonder whether the moderators would have got together.

rustle

15th Jul 2007, 21:08

Again, ftaod, that wasn't the post I was referring to :8

Gerard's a Good Guy and used to post here a lot until some unpleasantness about Sudan, pilots and donations came up...:O

The offending post and one that referred to it have both been removed.

Fuji Abound

15th Jul 2007, 21:17

Again, ftaod, that wasn't the post I was referring to

I know, I didnt realise there was something offensive anyway, and it is a shame that should have been so - it wouldnt happen in this place :).

Gerard's post caught my eye - and it is a good piece of prose.

eharding

15th Jul 2007, 21:53

Gerard's a Good Guy and used to post here a lot until some unpleasantness about Sudan, pilots and donations came up...

Aye - and all the stuff he posted on the Flyer forum about me, the trainee nuns and the goats....is, well, true....what can I say? :E

Flyin'Dutch'

15th Jul 2007, 23:04

Tis as Keef says; things wax and whane.

First got into on-line aviation banter via the Flyer List and when that took a nosedive came over here.

Great times were had with and I learned a lot, both about aviation and on line communities.

Tried the Flyer Forums at about the same time but their format at the time and the amount of trolls made that unbearable. That got addressed and the lack of people hiding behind aliases does make for better postings and less flaming, as does the fact that people have been meeting up a lot more frequently than the odd bash.

Some say that makes it more cliquey. Think that is a bit of a misnomer as all are welcome.

'Left' Proon at the same time as Gerard as I thought that episode was handled particularly bad by the powers that were. Later had a spat with one of the mods on here (not BRL) and unhappy to have ads next to my name on the medical and health forum which seems to be an unmoveable issue so stopped posting on there.

Pop back every now and then and have a look. At times some interesting threads.

But overall not enough impetus to hang about anymore.

It's a bit like your favourite restaurant.

After some time the menu changes, as does the staff and the clientele so you move on.

Whirlygig

15th Jul 2007, 23:24

unhappy to have ads next to my name on the medical and health forum

If you think that's bad, should see your ad here! :} crewdating.com

Cheers

Whirls

greeners

15th Jul 2007, 23:35

Maybe PPRuNe is a smidge more 'grown up', with all the good AND bad that implies?
And not sure how 'grown up':hmm: I want to be anyway....

Pilot DAR

16th Jul 2007, 02:11

Pompey Paul has it right in my opinion.

I respect the right of "newbies" to participate in our industry, and am willing to reply to help them. Sometimes, though, I'd like to have a better idea of the quality of origin of the comment or question. I chose this place to read and reply because it is called "Professional". I trust that those who use this forum, who are in the earliest phases of being professional, are at least trying to act that way.... You don't have to be employed as a pilot to have a professional attitude toward flying, and conducting yourself with other aviation people.

What if this forum also included a information item for each participant: "Hours flown PIC in the last year". At least we'd know who was flying and writing, and who was just writing...

I read less and less on pprune lately, because there is just enough bunk here to put me off. I have a limited time for such participation, and intend to use it wisely.

Cheers professionals, Pilot DAR

IO540

16th Jul 2007, 06:51

Not sure the above description of me is accurate, but never mind. I try to write bits which have a bit of substance on subjects which I think (hope) I know a bit about. I have no problems with people flying say rag and tube types - why should I ? But I know about IFR so I write about IFR. I would be a complete plonker to write about aerobatics, wouldn't I ?

That piece comes from a practicing barrister (a nice chap as far as I can tell) whose work includes aviation law, and I genuinely wish that he would spend as much time dealing with the aviation law matters that surface regularly (and get discussed, generally in a useless and inconclusive manner, by amateur brain surgeons and wishful thinkers) as he spends on banter. We have too few people willing to put in the time to write up a detailed answer - see below.

I avoid writing one-liners since they rarely convey any useful information and (given that all web-based forums are terribly inefficient to read, compared to Usenet) they just take up space and IMHO are a prime reason for driving out others who might otherwise have been willing to write up something worth reading. The content which I dislike most about certain forums is nearly always in the form of idiotic one-liners. If somebody has an opinion and takes the time to write something with more than 10 words, then at least it can be discussed. It doesn't matter that I might not agree with it; that's what discussion is about.

One can't have a forum which is a chatty place without it getting cliquey, not to mention a few other things, and then anybody who has anything worthwhile to say will clear off - because most people with useful knowledge tend to also have a life and can't be bothered to live in virtual worlds. I have on occassions used some other more specialised forums (one aircraft type specific, one car type specific as I drive an unusual imported car and had to mess around with the fuel injection, and others for specific types of IT equipment which would have otherwise been unsupported) and most have gone the same way at times. Even the aircraft type specific one, which one would have expected to be rather dry, has had its fair share of aggressive idiots.

Whirlybird

16th Jul 2007, 08:04

I chose this place to read and reply because it is called "Professional". I trust that those who use this forum, who are in the earliest phases of being professional, are at least trying to act that way.... You don't have to be employed as a pilot to have a professional attitude toward flying, and conducting yourself with other aviation people.

The Private Flying forum almost never got started because of comments like that. A fair number of people thought that PPRuNe was the place for Professional pilots and wannabees, not PPLs. It was then argued that "professional" was an attitude....anyway, we got the forum. :ok: But that means anyone can comment, including those with little or no experience. Personally, I think that's as it should be. There are enough forums on PPRuNe anyway - you can read the professional training one (whatever it's called) or Instructors, or whatever. We don't need yet more split-offs!

As for knowing the experience level of the posters, try looking at their profiles. Some are recently joined, and/or don't fill them in, and I tend to view their posts with...caution, maybe...and sometimes suspicion. But a fair number of people do fill them in, and that'll give you quite a good idea.

Anyway, it happens in flying clubs too; it's just life. I remember a low hours student explaining to me quite patronisingly (after all, I'm a woman, so he just knew I wouldn't understand these things) why the minimum solo pilot weight in an R22 couldn't possibly be HIGHER when you had full fuel including the auxiliary tank. (It is; it's due to centre of gravity issues, not all-up weight). Then someone dropped by and happened to ask if I'd sorted out doing my instructor's course yet...you should have seen the chap's face. :):D

Final 3 Greens

16th Jul 2007, 08:11

Heroes of PFA, farmstrip flying - the best in aviation and some other people.

That's what the strapline for this forum says.

IO540

16th Jul 2007, 08:27

I think the description of this forum is quite silly. "Heroes of PFA" ??????

Rod1

16th Jul 2007, 08:37

“Heroes of PFA" ??????”

You IFR types got something against the PFA

Rod1:E

IO540

16th Jul 2007, 09:38

You IFR types got something against the PFA

That's another amazing leap of deduction, which totally escapes me :ugh:

The phrase "Heroes of PFA, farmstrip flying - the best in aviation and some other people" is not even proper English.

A much more appropriate name for the forum would be something around "private pilots, covering all powered categories from ultralight to IFR"; that covers more or less everybody.

The glider community has their own forums.

The corporate pilots, and above, also have their own forums here which are quite different by nature and there appears to be virtually no overlap in the interests of these, and private pilots.

SkyHawk-N

16th Jul 2007, 12:27

give us a student forum where we can talk rubbish all day long

Have you tried here?

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=5

maxdrypower

16th Jul 2007, 13:30

Aha ! A thread I can get behind . As a PPL cum budding atpl I regularly look at both the pro training and private flying forums . I think IMHO that there is far more brown runny smelly stuff posted in the pro forums than there ever is here . In the main most stuff here , especially questions is genuine and asked by genuine people . Yes you are always going to get a number of answers and opinions , I think Bruce Lee (not a noted aviator but still) said it best "Absorb what is useful " he based an entire scrapping system on that premise. Everyone here has something to give even if it just inane and ridiculous banter (That be me then) . The biggest pains in the asses I find are the time served manipulators and masters of the long thin tube . There seem to be many who are here to drag down and belittle those less experienced than themselves , be it knowledge professors or the ridiculous spelling and grammar police , why dont you Fxxk Orf . Sorry
At the end of the day where I fly from there are many instructors and pilots who also fly airliners this in my view makes the two inextricably linked , do these people consider themselves pro pilots or private flying types and which forum do they frequent ?
I personally love the silliness and banter that some threads conjur up and enjoy the fact that if I have a silly question I can ask it , then sit back and watch the debate unfold
I dont think however that putting hours and experience is such a good idea , you will always then get the My dads bigger than yours argument . I mean who is better to speak to a newbie and offer advice on flying a cessna 150 an airbus man with 3000hrs who last sat in one 15 yrs ago or a 200hr ppl who flys ten hours a month in one ??? I know which of them would think , sorry know he was in a better position to say
Gemma good luck tmrw all will be well , solo by the weekend then is it ? and the answer is C

IO540

16th Jul 2007, 13:48

Gemma, nobody is suggesting that newbies should not post here. If anybody suggested that, it would be a perversion of what somebody else wrote - a bit like one person saying "a GPS is a good thing" and then another person twisting that around into "you should keep your eyes out of the cockpit and not inside it".

The original debate was over people posting meaningless dross, especially one-liners containing no meaning, and personal attacks, all of which are pointless and drive good people away.

SkyHawk-N

16th Jul 2007, 14:04

I had rather enjoyed talking to with other grown-ups to be honest SkyHawk-N.
I don't quite understand. Are you saying that the guys posting on the forum I mentioned are too young for you and therefore you are dismissing it? If so, I suggest you are wrong. Many of them are more experienced than you and I'm sure you can learn a lot from what they say, also the forum has a lot of input from some very experienced pilots which would also be valuable to you.

maxdrypower

16th Jul 2007, 14:27

The secret to all ppl exams Gem is RTFQ youve heard it before you know it but its there again for you. There will be at least two that are complete bollocks just take your time it will be no probs for you im sure . The only ones I struggled on were bloody flashing lights from towers alwasy confuse me those , I now have them on my kneeboard , never had to use them but there ya go
Good Luck:8:8:8

PompeyPaul

16th Jul 2007, 16:00

I had rather enjoyed talking to with other grown-ups to be honest SkyHawk-N. Hey I've got my air law exam tomorrow any tips
If stuck, and having to guess, then go for the longest most legalise answer available. Good luck. I think air law is the HARDEST of the exams because so much of it is new. Have you read up about QNH \ QFE \ Transition layers ? Every single exam I've taken has asked about that in some guise or another.

Also if they start spouting on about weight and mass, and not using SI units make sure you get up, leave and inform the CFI that "up with this I will not put" and send a stiff letter about it to the CAA.

The original debate was over people posting meaningless dross, especially one-liners containing no meaning, and personal attacks,

Welcome to the wonderful world of the internerd. I think you've got to expect a bit of roadkill on the information superhighway. The anonynomity that forums provide means people invariably say things that they would never do in real life. You've also got to accept that ASCII only really conveys 80% of the meaning. If you read some of the more heated discussions it's usually 2 people arguing about something and they both have a very slightly different take on what the other person is saying (mostly containing the sentence "I wasn't saying that xxxx" or "I didn't mean yyyy"). Although I have to say, for what ever reason, this is probably one of the more vicious forum I actually read. :ouch:

The secret to all ppl exams Gem is RTFQ youve heard it before you know it but its there again for you

What about the golden rule always go with your first answer ? I'm undecided about that. In my initial exams it would've got me a few more marks since I did change right answers to wrong answers. Towards the end I've corrected wrong questions so I've come out even stevens overall. I've still heard it bandied about a few times though, your first answer is more than likely your correct answer.

BEagle

16th Jul 2007, 17:51

Quality of posts ?

Never been quite the same since the end of a particular thread concerning headsets of a roseate hue.........

Just kidding. But it helped some and infuriated others.

As for spelling and grammar? Please at least TRY to make an effort - and leave yoof-speak to when yr txtng yr kewel M8s? OK??

Final 3 Greens

16th Jul 2007, 18:02

BEagle

)*(&(&*^*&^%&&$£&^&*(*&(*^&)(*&*)(*&(*&(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pink headsets to you, too!

high-hopes

16th Jul 2007, 20:06

A newbie here, and a low houred PPL too, so bite me ! ;)

Hey isn't this a free internet forum ? Shouldn't we all take it with a pinch of salt ?

In my short experience with aviation, airports and flying clubs, I've heard more bitching than you probably would at a hairdresser's (not that I have spent much time in a salon, unfortunately, given the state of my hair)

Flying is fantastic, and so are a lot of people in aviation. As in every community there's a lot of w***ers as well. Opinionated, annoying boring sad gits but no different from what you will find in every walk of life.
People that will give you a hard time for a spelling mistake or a typo.

Threads can be incredibly obnoxious, petty or useless, but every now and again you can read something interesting.
Despite all the crap, we still do it, so there must be some good in it no ?

Fortunately it's free and you can choose what to read.
And what to ignore, like my posts for example ;)

maxdrypower

16th Jul 2007, 20:18

Yes HH exactly ,I think that people like yourselves should be encouraged in your endeavours and not criticized for not being an airline captain. It does seem a lot of people on here do forget their roots and very quickly indeed . I wish I had an easy questioning forum like this when I did my PPL to pick peoples brains with . I am now using an atpl one , bugger is I still dont understand the answers when I get them , still ho hum on we go

IO540

16th Jul 2007, 21:06

In my short experience with aviation, airports and flying clubs, I've heard more bitching than you probably would at a hairdresser's

Actually that's another good point. GA is renowned for that. I don't know why but it would make a good case study for a Psychology PhD.

It could be because almost everything to do with flying is such a hassle on the ground, compensated only by the pleasure of being airborne. And because so many people are clearly not able to fly as much as they would like....

maxdrypower

16th Jul 2007, 21:28

I read that book and I must have missed the chapter on gob****e , underachieving, no mark prolls , a category I fit into fluidly , must read it again :O:O

Final 3 Greens

17th Jul 2007, 07:05

Anybody else read the killing zone, Sternone put a link up for it. It's the 'pilot personality' you see IO540. Male or female makes no difference - born to bitch, moan, get one over, be determined they are right and their instructor is being picky etc etc. Not sure if any of it is any more true in GA than any other community but the chapter in the book is worth a read and it might go along way to explain things on here - it's a type of person that learns to fly and I guess the banter and digging goes with that personality.

Can you quote any other references that assert this theory?

It goes against everything that I understand about personality.

IO540

17th Jul 2007, 08:38

I haven't read that book but have seen so many people mention his #1 plank which is that you will probably die when you reach 200 hours, or whatever it was.

The man should have gone on "Statistics 101". Correlation is no evidence for a causal relationship. There are loads of potential reasons why accidents peak around certain points in the pilot experience. It could be down to the alleged excess confidence or it could be a change in the mission profile. Without analysis one can't say much, and even then the conclusion will still only apply to the population rather than the individual. It's like saying that if you take a certain brand of contraceptive pill you are only 10% likely to get pregnant.

I agree that pilots do bitch rather a lot but let's look at why. Here in Europe there is a great deal of cr*p that any pilot has to deal with on the ground, and there a a lot more cr*p on top of that that any aircraft owner has to deal with on the ground. This, together with the relative lack of utility value in GA etc etc, means that most people chuck it in fast, and that the people who do hang in there tend to be strong determined characters. These people tend to be opinionated (no push-over type will survive in this game for long) and this shows up in pilot forums.

There is nothing wrong with being opinionated! When my children were very small, they used to say "Papa, you know EVERYTHING, don't you?". I used to reply "I don't know everything, but I do have an opinion on everything". 10 years later they get the joke.

The problem with pilot forums is that you get a lot of people who are opinionated but who rarely (if ever) fly. These people have nothing to contribute (except idle chatter) but they still manage to run up 10,000 posts within say 3 years. Everybody else then has to wade through this dross. If this was Usenet, one could killfile them but this can't be done with web based forums - unless somebody writes a custom front end. The Usenet equivalent of Pprune or Flyer forums would have large killfiles and would take just seconds to read - per day. Whereas if you wanted to read the whole of say Flyer you would spend several hours per day in there. Web based forums are a massive step backwards in this respect.

Whirlybird

17th Jul 2007, 08:41

I agree with Final 3 Greens. It's not something I've ever heard about, nor does it seem to make sense in terms of either personality theory or what I know in practice about pilots. Anyone can write anything - get it in print, and you tend to be believed and it's taken as gospel. I know, I'm a writer and it happens all the time!

mazzy1026

17th Jul 2007, 08:43

It could be because almost everything to do with flying is such a hassle on the ground, compensated only by the pleasure of being airborne. And because so many people are clearly not able to fly as much as they would like....
Quite possibly the best thing ever written on pprune since I joined 3 years ago - and why? Cos we live in England!

That's another thread though and I'm just ranting. I've been here over 3 years, and in all honesty haven't been posting anywhere near what I used to, but that's mainly because my diary thread (3 years old still going :8) started to come to a close after I got my ticket.

You can't please everyone, and threads like this will continue to pop up for years and years to come :rolleyes:

Wessex Boy

17th Jul 2007, 11:50

I like both the PPRUNE and Flyer forums, but for different reasons. I use both as a way of maintaining a connection to aviation during the working week, and for prompting thought about my approach and technique when I am away from the airfield.

I like the sense of community on the Flyer Forum, with it's fly-ins, impromptu gatherings and fast-paced repartee, but PPRUNE has a wider base of experience (perceived or real I am not sure?), and I find the mil forum as a great way of keeping in touch with what the RAF culture is turning into.

I heard a great quote yesterday:
Opinions are like @rseholes, everyone has one, but they don't tend to show them in public:cool:

G-KEST

17th Jul 2007, 12:04

Wessex Boy - "I heard a great quote yesterday:
Opinions are like @rseholes, everyone has one, but they don't tend to show them in public"
Some do and some don't............ most of the time anyway.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:cool:

PompeyPaul

17th Jul 2007, 12:05

Although I have to say, for what ever reason, this is probably one of the more vicious forum I actually read. :ouch:
Sorry, after reading this http://boards.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=922&p=16&style=1&forumId=3253&action=1&replytoid=2117564918 I take that back.

Wessex Boy

17th Jul 2007, 12:15

That's nothing, you should see some of the US tropical fish fora....:}

Gipsy Queen

18th Jul 2007, 04:56

As has been suggested, these things do tend to be a little cyclic.

But, being an old fart and able to see things from a perspective broader than most, I am inclined to think that there is less to talk about these days than once was the case.

People now have shared experiences of the same legislative and operating restrictions, usually fly one of only three types of generally uninspiring aircraft in largely similar conditions and circumstances and spend more time in discussion of airspace infringements and the like than in actually flying which is not a particularly edifying topic in itself due to generally uninspiring aircraft . . . blah, blah, blah.

This is not necessarily a criticism; just an observation of how things have developed into a regimented blandness. To be asking questions concerning the legality of flying into a private field seems to exemplify this Orwellian condition.

Now if someone were to ask whether the direction of rotation of the Pobjoy had a marked affect on which side to approach slip a Comper Swift, or seek a special technique enabling a Miles Gemini to make a non-porpoising climb out whilst the gear was being pumped up, we would really be cooking with gas . . .

Oh dear, showing my age again.

Wessex Boy

18th Jul 2007, 08:27

Miles Gemini....now you're talking!
Saw one for sale recently, very nice!
any views on what they are like to fly/own? Not serious yet, but in 10 years or so maybe? (in my dreams probably)

englishal

18th Jul 2007, 08:29

Actually that's another good point. GA is renowned for that <bitching>.
Actually it is European, and particularly UK GA which is renowned for that. You don't see it in the USA or the much in the rest of Europe for some reason? I think a lot of it is to do with cost.....If something costs more, it must be better...right?:}

Personally I don't care where someone comes from, what they do, or who they are. I had a look around someones hangar in the USA. In his "toy box" were:

A cessna citation
A Jet ranger
A classic ferrari
A brand new ferrari somethingorother
A Mclaren sports car
A Lotus racing car
2 mercedes classic convertibles
A ducati
A T28 warbird

I did feel mildly envious :O

Whirlybird

18th Jul 2007, 09:00

Personally I don't care where someone comes from, what they do, or who they are. I had a look around someones hangar in the USA.

But just out of interest, what does he do? I'm always curious
as to how people make enough dosh for multiple fancy aircraft buys.

When I flew a 3 million quid EC135 for Today's Pilot, I asked what the owner did. Owned a bank, apparently. OK then, that explains it. And the chap who owned the EC155 that I'm still angling to fly sold an internet business for some massive figure that I wouldn't even know how to write, or how many noughts it had on the end.

I guess I'll just have to make do with flying and writing about these sorts of aircraft. I'm not complaining though. :ok: