FAA ticket and flying G-reg

[Blue Albatross]

Hi All,

I've seen many times people writing about how you can fly a G-reg on an FAA ticket. Is that something that the CAA has granted permission on or is it a JAA thing? In other words, can an FAA licence holder also leagally fly a PH, D or F reg plane also, or is that determined by the local aviation authority only?

I'm also assuming that one is restricted to daytime VFR only and no IFR or night flying is permitted even if the FAA holder has those ratings?

Thanks,
Claython

[172driver]

Others will reply with all the legal niceties, but in a nutshell:

The CAA recognize the FAA license, so you can fly a G-reg worldwide. At least in the UK you are limited to day-VFR (in my understanding).

Some other countries also recognize th FAA license, notably France, however, there are all sort of restrictions. IIRC, in France you have to be non-EU resident.

This whole thing is actually an ICAO issue, where basically all ICAO countries should recognize each other's tickets.

Now, we know that the air is VERY different in Europe....:ugh: hence most countries here don't. Check with your local authority.

[Dave Gittins]

You can bring yer FAA ticket over here and hire a G- reg and away you go.

But for me to fly an N- reg, I have to pay the CAA £38.00 send off various communications, receive others in return, wait for a minimum of 6 weeks while all this occurs, drive 50 miles to find an FSDO in the US and then get a bit of paper and then do an FR before I can rent a 172.

How fair is all that ???

Mind you I do have a nice picture of Orville and Wilbur which says I am a member of the club that they founded.

[IO540]

The rights (if any) that a license gives you are according to the state of aircraft registry, which for G-reg is the UK CAA.

The 2005 ANO is here (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051970.htm).

I don't have time to look it up but I think it is article 26 which automatically validates any ICAO license for VFR flight in a G-reg aircraft. There is no territorial restriction on this, so it is valid worldwide. This automatic validation is a very unusual thing and I am not aware of another European country that does it (for its own reg aircraft).

There is another one which validates any ICAO (but not JAA) instrument rating for IFR in a G-reg but only outside controlled airspace i.e. Class F or Class G. This is much less useful because most airspace thus usable outside the UK is Class E or higher. To do IFR in CAS you need a JAA IR.

[OpenCirrus619]

The 2005 ANO is here.

and the 2007 version (OK - it is the "non-authoritative" CAP393) is here. (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF)

OC619

[IO540]

Traditionally, CAP393 is the ANO.

Until very recently, there was the 2005 ANO and then there was a 2007 amendment (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/20070274.htm). Then, to correct the c0ckups in the amendment (like having to have type approved life jackets (which don't exist) there was an AIC (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&newstype=n&mode=detail&nid=1457)amending the amendment....

Now it appears they have revised the ANO itself but I don't have the time to read it all.....

Article 26 rings a bell re automatic ICAO license validation.

[Whopity]

Traditionally, CAP393 is the ANO.
No, Traditionally the ANO is part of CAP393!

Whilst Art 26 validates your pilot certificate, it is often not recognised that the FAA certificate has no RT privileges outside the USA and must be accompanied by a FCC Radiotelephone Certificate http://wireless.fcc.gov/aviation/fctsht4.html

[Dave Gittins]

Interesting thought ..... my PPL (as it stands) has no R/T license, that is separate. Thus as I have an FAA - based on - license, do I have an "authority" to use the radio in the USA or not ???

The FSDO didn't check my R/T license while they were checking my PPL and medical.

If the answer is that an FAA PPL incorporates a radio license I am OK. BUT I guess that a UK PPL without a radio license (of which there may be some but not many) would get a radio license "based on" when he/she didn't have one to start with.

Hmmmmm

[julian_storey]

An FAA licence doesn't 'include' an RT licence - however the US authorities do not require pilots to hold an RT licence when flying an 'N' registered aircraft in the USA.
Technically, if you are flying an 'N' reg aircraft OUTSIDE the USA - you SHOULD have a radio licence. You can get one off the web from the FCC for about $60.
Pretty much all you have to do (apart from paying the $60) is confirm that you speak English :O

[N727NC]

Now the possessor of an FAA PPL, and enroute back to the UK, could someone steer me in the right direction for the regs on what I need to operate at home - Air Law? Radio Licence?

Also, is it sensible and/or practical to convert it to a NPPL or a JAA PPL?

[IO540]

For an N-reg in Europe:

Certificate of Airworthiness
Certificate of Registration
Radio station authorisation
FCC Restricted Radiotelephony Operator Permit
POH (Pilot Operating Handbook, known in the USA as the "Flight Manual")
Weight and Balance schedule (usually contained within the POH)
Pilot Identification (a passport is the only legal option outside the USA)
Insurance Certificate showing the appropriate coverage area and the amount of cover
Plus:
Pilot's License showing the privileges for the aircraft being flown and the conditions of the flight (e.g. an IR if arriving IFR)
Pilot's medical certificate

[172driver]

Now the possessor of an FAA PPL, and enroute back to the UK, could someone steer me in the right direction for the regs on what I need to operate at home - Air Law? Radio Licence?


N727NC you can fly a G-Reg on your FAA ticket as is, no need to do any conversion.

Also, is it sensible and/or practical to convert it to a NPPL or a JAA PPL?

You can do that and it does make sense if you want to fly JAA (other than G) registered a/c. I am referring to a JAR ticket here, AFAIK the NPPL won't give you any advantage. There are two ways to do this: immediately, in which case you have to do a series of exams, or after you've gained some experience, in which case the number of exams is reduced. Check the LASORs for the most up-to-date info re this, IIRC it's 100 hours PIC and 50 X-country. The LASORs will also give you info what to do if you want to convert immediately.

Again, as it stands, you don't NEED to do anything to fly a G-reg :ok:

[gyrotyro]

I live in France and have a UK issued JAA PPL and operate a N registered aircraft.

How do you think this stacks up on the validity question ?

[IO540]

I live in France and have a UK issued JAA PPL and operate a N registered aircraft.
How do you think this stacks up on the validity question ?

I don't think it's valid outside the UK.

It is up to the state of registry what privileges (if any) a foreign license gives you - unless prohibited in the airspace in question (which is AFAIK very rare).

In this case (N-reg) it is up to the FAA.

As I wrote in the other N-reg thread:

FAR $61.3 (a) (1) says: "when operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used".

[my bold]

I know some people have taken the view that a JAA PPL is a European PPL and should thus cover you for an N-reg all over JAA-land, I don't think "JAA" is a "country". JAA works by automatic mutual validation. A UK issued JAA PPL is still issued by a country called UK.

If the FAA clarified this otherwise, that would be fine. But until then, 61.3 (a) (1), if read exactly as written, says "issued", not "issued or validated", and it uses the word "country".

[Fuji Abound]

but as it stands the FAR is quite clear.

I am not certain it is.

The UK is not a country - but a collection of countries.

Equally, there is a difference in international law between the way the countries that make up the EU and the UK conduct themselves.

Is the place of operation of an aircraft where it is usually kept or based? That might be what you would expect, and in itself does that preclude the aircraft making a jouney from its base in the UK to another country and returning.

Perhaps the intention of the drafter is more straightforward. So far as the US is concerned if the aircraft is based outside the US, as long as the pilot operating the aircraft is licensed by the country in which the aircraft is normally based then under the FARs the pilot is entitled to command that aircraft.

I dont know?

As IO says if the FAA give you their interpretation that is probably good enough although as is always the case the regulators interpretation is one thing but ultimately it is for the courts to determine what the legislation mean.

[IO540]

Fuji-

if the FAA give you their interpretation that is probably good enough although as is always the case the regulators interpretation is one thing but ultimately it is for the courts to determine what the legislation mean

Agreed, but with a suitable letter/email from the FAA it would be awfully hard to get done for the alleged breach.

As one barrister said in a similar context (concerning a statement by an CAA employee, IIRC), a statement made by an [presumably not totally clued-up] employee of a regulatory body does not in itself create an estoppel, but there is a reasonable expectation on the part of the public to receive a correction.

SoCal App -

The N-reg aircraft is registered in the USA. I am not aware of anything relating to a "place of operation" (in Part 91) - planes can move about and there are many, esp. corp jets, which move about so much that one can't really say they are based in any particular place.

The only other factor is the current airspace and that is what FAR 61.3 refers to when it talks about "country".

IMHO of course :) All valid points made by you two above.

We could have a debate about what the FAA intended and then IMHO a JAA PPL would work in an N-reg all over JAA-land.

In support of Fuji: A colleague recently had an interview with a corp jet outfit (not in the UK). They required a JAA ATPL; he has an FAA one so didn't get the job. But they operate some N-reg jets (and some EU-reg jets) around the world and they told him that the JAA ATPL would be good for the N-reg ones in JAA land. I would find it hard to believe this firm didn't get a legal opinion on this, but equally they are not going to post it on pprune...

[Fuji Abound]

For the purpose of Administration, it is governed by the CAA and they issue the license for those countries contained therein.

You have a good point.

However, for licensing the CAA is not surely the governing licensing authority - it is merely authorised to issue a JAA license to members of the EU who are UK resident. It is interesting to compare this when EASA takes over, when presumably they will become the licensing authority and will not subrogate their authority to member states.

I think the FAA would consider the 'place of operation' as being where the N reg aircraft is itself registered. So if the FAA registry shows the aircraft as registered in the UK - that would probably be what the ruling is based off.

I dont understand your second point. If there is an N on the tail the aircraft is registered in America. The aircraft can only be registered to either an American citizen living outside the US or through a trust controlled by an American citizen(s) who may or may not live outside the US. That has nothing to do with the place of operation. The place of operation of an N reg aircraft based at lets say Birmingham is clearly England or perhaps the UK.

Do the FARs really intend that if that aircraft is flown from Birmingham to France and back to Birmingham the flight becomes illegal when the aircraft crosses the FIR?

In short a N reg based at Birmingham commanded by a CAA licensed pilot is clearly fine flying in English airspace and probably UK airspace,

the same commander may be fine if he takes the iarcraft to France and returns,

a commander with a CAA license living in France and operating an N reg based in France would clearly seem illegal,

and permutations of JAA licenses mixed with different places of operation would seem to me to be unclear.

[Fuji Abound]

So that implies that you can fly a N reg within the local country license but not cross the border into another country..

I am not sure it does.

There are two aspects to this.

Firstly, what the FARs say you can do with one of their aircraft and secondly what the sovereign authority of whose airspace the aircraft is flying within says.

Cleary DGAC is saying so far as our airspace is concerned if you are operating the aircraft within the terms of the FAR then we are also happy. I dont think in the reference to which you are referring they are commenting on the position outside the FIR, and nor could they. They are simply warning that becomes a matter for the sovereign state concerned.

[Fuji Abound]

A good analogy is if you write to DCAG and tell them you have an FAA IR, live in the UK and wish to excercise its privilges in a G reg aircraft they will tell you you cant, but given the same scenario but tell them you are temporarily living in the UK and are not a EU citizen ordinarily resident in the UK and they will tell you you can!

In other words its up to them - their airspace and all that.

For waht it is worth the CAA could take a different view, although as it happens they take the same view.

[Fuji Abound]

Head spinning

Yep, me to, going to call it a night on this one, but an interesting debate - thank you.

I agree the simplest solution is just get yourself the FAA ticket on the back of what ever .. .. ..

[172driver]

SoCal, just had a look at the French website linked to in your post. This is interesting, as it confers the FULL privileges of a French license to flying an N-reg. In other words, it allows you to fly an N-reg privately or commercially (!!) IF you hold the relevant French license and if you remain within French territory. The latter is crystal clear here. You could, therefore, fly said a/c up to the FIR boundary.... but not beyond, at least not on the strength of your French license. Now, does a CAA-issued JAR license qualify as French in these circumstances.....:confused:

There is, btw, a very interesting paragraph further up on this webpage, where the French state that they accept a foreign IFR license.

[IO540]

Can someone please translate the above mentioned article?

For an N-reg, the French are merely restating the FAA position (which is that you can do whatever the FARs allow you to, in foreign airspace) and it appears they have not explicitly prohibited commercial operation. This is interesting but is probably not the whole story otherwise French schools would all go N-reg! It can't be regulated by AOC issue either because schools don't need an AOC, do they??

Whereas the UK CAA has prohibited commercial operation in all foreign reg planes (ANO Article 140 prohibits EASA reg planes too, even though certain people has stated that the DfT denies this).

For an F-reg, my previous information was that France does accept the FAA IR but only for non-EU residents (by bold in text below):

TO OBTAIN THE FRENCH VALIDATION AS A PRIVATE AIM
OF A FOREIGN ICAO LICENSE
Ø Photocopies of the license.
Ø A certificate (in French or English) from the country of issue confirming the authenticity of the license and that the pilot is permitted to exercise the privileges mentioned. Should the end of validity not appear on the license, validity of your ratings and medical aptitude should appear on the certificate. For pilots holding an American license, this certificate will be requested directly by District aéronautique to F.A.A.
In other cases, the pilot will request the certificate to the country that delivered the license, and join it to the complete file.
Ø Photocopy of a recent medical aptitude certificate attached to the valid license. For pilots over 40 the medical certificate must be less than 1 year old and less than 2 years for pilots under 40.
Ø Photocopy of the last page of the flight notebook certifying the overall total of flying hours as well as those flown as captain / pilot in command. The last flights should also appear.
Ø Photocopy of the passport or National identity Card.
Ø 2 identity photographs .
Ø A letter requesting the validation of a foreign license including both the home address and French address (if possible) of the claimant. A phone number should be included. Please specify clearly to which address you want the validation sent once established.
Ø For pilots from European Economic Area (E.E.A.) country members, photocopy of the resident's card or consular in state still valid of the country having emitted the license or another country outside E.E.A. If your resident's card is no longer valid we will be unable to provide a French validation of your license.
Please send the complete file to :
MRS THOMASSET
DISTRICT AERONAUTIQUE ILE DE FRANCE
BUREAU DES LICENCES
ORLY SUD N°108
94396 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX
FAX: 01.69.57.74.71.

which is from a PDF which somebody found on the DGAC website but I don't have the URL anymore. I do have the PDF, if anybody wants it.

[172driver]

Can someone please translate the above mentioned article?

IO, I take it you are referring to the IR part I mentioned. This is, alas, not 100% clear, inasmuch as it does not make any reference to the registration of the airplane. However, in my (and my French wife's) reading this should be valid on an F-reg, in France, as long as the underlying license and rating remain valid and the issuing country is an ICAO member. This can probably only be cleared up with certainty by a call to the DGAC/FCL or by a French aviation lawyer.

HTH

[Fuji Abound]

For an F-reg, my previous information was that France does accept the FAA IR but only for non-EU residents (by bold in text below):

I have it in writing from DGAC that is the case for a G reg. In other words G reg, CAA license, FAA IR and EU citizen - no IR priviliges, same circumstances non EU citizen IR proviliges. It was important to me at one time as I am also a non EU national.

As I said previosuly be very careful to read too much into what happens when you cross the FIR - almost always what the state of juristiction is saying is it is not up to us any long, if the state of juristiction that you are now in says it is OK then so far as we are concerned it is as well. In short we cant speak for them.

For example, many many years ago I also received a written reply from the Germans that they would accept an IMCR as equivalent to their IWR. The CAA wrote to me and said that was fine, if the Germans were happy with it!

(PS The above reference was over ten years ago, the reference to DGAC within the last couple of years).

[IO540]

For example, many many years ago I also received a written reply from the Germans that they would accept an IMCR as equivalent to their IWR. The CAA wrote to me and said that was fine, if the Germans were happy with it!

The above is reasonable. The words "within the UK" (which would prevent it working) were inserted into the ANO only in recent years.

I have it in writing from DGAC that is the case for a G reg. In other words G reg, CAA license, FAA IR and EU citizen - no IR priviliges, same circumstances non EU citizen IR proviliges. It was important to me at one time as I am also a non EU national.

Does the above contain a typo, Fuji? The DGAC have no business dictating the privileges of any license in a G-reg. Only the UK ANO can do that. The ANO gives you worldwide IFR privileges OCAS with any ICAO (non-JAA) IR in a G-reg, but France is full of Class E which is CAS for IFR so it's not useful.

[Fuji Abound]

IO540

I think the logic is that the FAA IR is an ICAO compliant instrument rating. The CAA do not recognise the FAA IR as conferring IR priviliges in CAS other than in an N reg, however it would seem to be within the remit of DGAC to recognise the rating in the circumstances I gave - the key being that the pilot is NOT an EU resident.

If you write to the CAA I suspect they will tell if the French are prepared to recognise the ratiing in France that is a matter for them.

[N727NC]

SoCal App (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=147034)
My work took me, unaccompanied, to the US for 6 months, so I used my weekends to learn to fly - achieving a long-frustrated goal the day before I returned to the UK. Even if I never fly again, it will have been well worth it.

IO540 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=71715) and 172driver
(http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=116576)
Thank you for your assistance - from what you tell me, so long as I comply with the terms of my FAA PPL, I can fly any G reg ac that anyone will let me at - and which I could afford to rent.

[gcolyer]

N727NC

The one limitation that you will have is you will not be able to fly at night in G reg and an FAA license. You are restricted to day time VFR.

[IO540]

The one limitation that you will have is you will not be able to fly at night in G reg and an FAA license. You are restricted to day time VFR.

That one is a grey area.

On the one hand, the FAA PPL includes night privileges as standard.

On the other hand, the FARs require an "instrument rating" for any flight under IFR, and in the UK night flight is under IFR.

It is up to the CAA to decide which (if any) night privileges the FAA PPL would have in a G-reg. I wonder if anybody has asked them?

[englishal]

The one limitation that you will have is you will not be able to fly at night in G reg and an FAA license. You are restricted to day time VFR
Old wives tale. I did once write to the CAA to ask them to clarify (I have lost the response now) but they pointed out that there was no limitation to "day and VFR" in the ANO. There is however a limiation to not being allowed to fly IAW IFR within Controlled Airspace.

But there is also the thinking that in the USA to fly IAW IFR you MUST be on an IFR flight plan. In the UK no IFR flight plan is required to fly at night, and hence IFR is not really IFR in the FAA sense.

I think the lawyers would have a hard time prosecuting one for flying at night with an FAA PPL.

I did ask the CAA if I could have a NQ added to my JAA PPL by virtue of my many hours flown at night in the USA, and they sent the usual vague response that I'd have to do my training with a JAA instructor and have it signed by a JAA examiner - so I thought bugger that, what can they teach me about night flying that I don't already know (I also hold IR and IMC ratings).:hmm:

[Zulu Alpha]

I flew for G reg aircraft for many years in the UK on an FAA PPL.
The main difficulty was renewing my US medical and Biannual flight review. I had to find a doctor who had FAA approval ( there are a reasonable number of these) and an instructor ( less frequent). However if combined with holiday/business trips to the US I didn't find it too difficult.
I eventually changed to a CAA (pre EASA) UK PPL as I wanted to add an IMC rating. This involved doing a few exams, airlaw and radio if I remember correctly. Also the CAA had to check my logbook for the required experience. This just took time (they had it for about a month) and money.
One advantage of the US PPL is that I am colour blind. In the UK this means there are a some restrictions on my licence. In the US I passed a practical test (they shone coloured lights at me from the tower) and the FAA issued a certificate of demonstrated ability which frees me from the restrictions of colour blindness even though my US medical still shows I am colour blind.
I did keep both valid for some time by finding a doctor and an flight instructor who could do both the UK and US medical/flight test. This often then involved one medical/flight test plus a bit of extra money for the US and UK paperwork. However after 40 yrs old the renewal frequencies occur at different intervals so they get out of step with each other. I now just keep the UK licence up to date. The US could always be reactivated with a medical and a flight test.

[englishal]

You don't even need a flight test for the US one....just a flight review with an FAA CFI will do it.