Easyjet - UK JAR Licences only.

[Bumby]

Easyjet are now insisting that all all pilots convert their various JAR Licences to a UK-JAR Licence.

Surely this makes a mockery of JAR by one of the biggest operators in the business and has to be contrary to EU law as it infringes on the rights of those holding non-UK JAR Licences.

Has anyone any idea as to the thinking behind this latest policy?

[Blinkz]

I thought it was something to do with allowing their trainers to sign the licences? :confused:

[despegue]

Any JAR approved TRE (and any CAA TRE is JAR approved) can sign any JAR licence.
They just want to be xenophobic. But guess what, civilisation doesn't end in Dover EasyJet (more the contrary...)!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A mockery you say?

I think you'll find easyJet employs HUNDREDS of pilots from Continental Europe and has done for years. How many British pilots have employment with Air France/Alitalia/Lufthansa/SAS/Iberia et al?

At the end of the day its the companies trainset and if they find it easier to manage their license compliance by having all flightdeck on the same authority then so be it. Can you imagine having to liase with every National Authority in the JAA in each language? Specifically the company operates a company unique FTL scheme under a special exemption granted by the UK CAA who closely monitor its implementation and effect. Its far far easier to get all the pilots on the same CAA's books than to have any additional hasslr dealing with multiple CAA's.

Conversion to a UK issued License is merely a matter of submitting a form and your logbook. If that's too big a deal for you then don't let the door hit your ass on the way out and mind the queue as you go.

WWW :ugh:

[Dutchjock]

When I joined a couple of years ago they also insisted everyone had to convert their license to a UK license. Because they asked everyone to do so the CAA had a massive backlog and I and many others couldn't fly for quite some time. They then stopped asking people to do so.

Seems like their short term memory loop has just started a new cycle and they've forgotten all about it...

[MD12]

Any JAR approved TRE (and any CAA TRE is JAR approved) can sign any JAR licence.

Not at all. That's the way it is suposed to work but there are a few countries not accepting signatures from foreign instructors, or if they do, they require a hell lot of paperwork.

EZY is not the only airline doing this.

[mcdhu]

The voice of reason (I hope). This is wholly due to the current situation whereby a UK TRE cannot sign certain JAA State licences. The following States are some of the offenders:

Belgium, France(surprise, surprise), Germany, Holland, Sweden and Switzerland.

Thus, the UK TRE has to issue a Form SRG1119 and a copy of his TRE Authorisation to the candidate who has to prevail upon his State Authority to update his licence.

If this process goes wrong, takes time or falls between the cracks, there is a high liklihood that the pilot will fly when out of check - not good for the health of any airline. So who can blame easyJet for taking steps to ensure that pilots do not fly out of check?

Cheers all,
mcdhu

[Kraut]

@ WWW
...........Conversion to a UK issued License is merely a matter of submitting a form and your logbook. If that's too big a deal for you then don't let the door hit your ass on the way out and mind the queue as you go.........

I like your friendly european style!

As somebody said: hell lot of paperwork - not true- Fill out the papers, send it in to the required authority as you do with your "british" papers. However, do not plan the sim on the last day, so that the TRE can sign direct to the licence. Matter of good airmanship to maintain a pilot licence!

And WWW, look careful into the regulations and you find that some pilots with a valid i.e. german JAR licence would loose their TRE status changing to a UK JAR licence.
I bet, if you are a TRE you would not accept to loose your TRE status!

Fazit, there is more to it than "hit your ass"! :=

[Stampe]

My company has people flying on other states JAR licences and I know it causes administrative difficulties due to varying degrees of interpretation of the regulations.Some European countries very much do their own thing regarding the regulations often pandering to the whims of the "state carrrier".Can,t say I blame Easyjet for this one they have a joint responsiblility for this one with their pilots and just one interpretation of the rule set will make life much easier.The bottom end of the seniority list of my company reads like an European phone directory and the "guest workers" have been made most welcome some even marrying British girls.I wouldn,t rate my chances of a job in in many of the parts of Europe and many Dutch can,t get a job with their state carrier because they went to the "wrong college".Job won,t be worth having for the next generation why are we worrying.VBR Stampe

[JW411]

mcdhu:

That's interesting; unlike you I can sign Belgian and Swedish licences.

Strangely, I could sign Dutch and Swiss licences BEFORE they became JAR compliant but not any more.

Common licence my foot; the whole set-up is a farce located in the middle of a minefield.

As someone else has already said, getting all pilots on to a common (in this case UK-JAR) licence makes a lot of sense.

[Say again s l o w l y]

If this is the case, then really, what's the point of having a European wide licence?
I know how difficult it can be for a company like Easy and WWW's points are valid, but for a TRE to lose their status just because they are moving from one JAR licence to another is a mockery.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I know nothing about the exotics of TRE rights.

I don't think it is unreasonable for EZY to ask all its pilots to apply for a UK issued license.

Any bitching from Continental pilots about the process has to be weighed in context.

WWW

[Kraut]

Dear WWW

I am not bitching as a continental pilot. I am considering the regulations which give some pilots a disadvantage.
By the way, the company did not complain about this issue for a long, long time.
Just with the change in the training department it came up!

Additionally lot of pilots have it written in their contract, that a JAR-licence is sufficient!

Anything wrong with legal arguments from the continent!?:confused:

[despegue]

I have a belgian licence, and TRE's from the UK, Iceland and Germany have signed my licence without any problem. The Belgian CAA has to accept the signatures and they know it. No forms to be filled in.

[ICING AOA]

UK CAA should be the only one authority in Europe and that's IT ! :ok:

[Kraut]

I think some people are seeing a national priority issue!?

Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the world!?:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm answering the original post.

WWW

[neil armstrong]

UK CAA should be the only one authority in Europe and that's IT
you must be joking ,nothing but trouble they are!
Neil

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Neil

We rule the world, get rid of all jonny foriegners and send them to Germany is my view (oops that's happening anyway :) )
The licence issue these days in the UK is straight forward, down to the CAA for 0800 and out by 1000 if your first in the queue. Done a few Dutch and German licences and they took 7-10 days, nothing that bad :\

[Man Flex 37.5]

There are European states that will not allow UK TRE's to sign revalidations / renewals and as mentioned above there are additional forms to fill in (SRG1119). This isn't the only reason, if a non UK rating expires on say the 10th of the month, then that is the date it expires. If a UK rating expires on the 10th of the month, we can extend the validity to the end of the month, the aims software which tracks rating validity will assume that all ratings expire at the end of the month and potentially someone flying with an invalid rating. I have seen this before on a UK licence where the rating had not been extended for some reason and the person flew illegally.
Regards
MF

[haughtney1]

I still say we should fire the chinless wonders...and sink the Belgrano...:E

Bloody good cafe on the top floor though!:ok:

[F4F]

£216 for a non UK JAR to a UK JAR conversion...
Worth every penny considering the huge task for the CAA of copying one's licence data to the other one, just wonder why it is that cheap :rolleyes:

Sure love Europe :E

live 2 fly 2 live

[Kraut]

A word here to the EZY pilots:

I think, we have more important problems to solve at the moment than the "UK-JAR Licence" issue.

Management sure will laugh about us, if they see our "problems" (licence) we are taking so serious.

If the pilot community is split that easy at EZY, oh dear!:(

[High_Altitud]

I agree with you Kraut..
but anyway this is what the company is trying to do:
divide us.

First of all they are trying their best to give the impression Balpa is not rappresentitive of the pilot's feelings (see MC's and JP's letter) and then to break the pilot comunity by pushing hard for local contracts and etc..

This managemt is just like all the others: they only want money, and only for theirself...

And we have been too naive to see it coming..

HA

[ElNino]

I think, we have more important problems to solve at the moment than the "UK-JAR Licence" issue.

Look at the bigger picture. The reason EZY insist on the UK licence is the reason why EZY is a vastly better employer than ryanair.
As the CAA won't validate licences from anywhere in the world, giving a 1 year dispensation of doing the theory exams, EZY are forced to choose from a much smaller pool of pilots. Hence they must offer decent terms and conditions.
The flip side is the corrupt IAA that offers validations to anyone. So ryanair can choose from a worldwide pool of pilots, most of whom are willing to work for peanuts, undercutting everyone else.
Far from being a problem, the UK JAR licence is the reason why you work enjoy T&C's vastly superior to ryanair. You should be down on your knees giving thanks, not bitching about it.

[High_Altitud]

Elnino, are you sure?

Having a France issued Jar license or a English issued Jar license does it make me a worse pilot?

And are you sure about the superiority of U2 compared to FR.
The conditions would be the same if a union would be involved in FR or vice versa...
The mngmt is not that better, they are just more politically correct:yuk:

[Kraut]

@ ElNino

you say.........As the CAA won't validate licences from anywhere in the world,..........

I am talking about "JAR-FCL"!!Not about any validations! This is a different story!

And now I am really worried (after reading the latest published matters) of the real problems in EZY!

[Aslak]

Ladies/Gentleman,
I guess I have been completely wrong for many many years if this is and have been happening. When I convalidated my european/ICAO issued ATLP into JAA-FCL paper about 4years ago, at least then, by signing the application I also promised NOT to apply for an other JAR ATPL in any other JAA country, since you do not need to do it nor you are allowed to do it. That was one of the main goals of the entire idea! Has that regulation changed?
We have guys flying with at least UK, Swedish, German and Finnish issued licences. We are not UK based, but most of the guys signing our licences are UK approved TRE's and they do sign all the papers and most of the times everything is going fairly smoothly. Of course, not always...:ugh:
Last fall in Brazil I run into interesting situation w/ this licencing thing. After arriving into our initial destination, we still had a couple of legs within Brazil and for that we needed a " waiver". For the issue of such a document we needed to present all the relevant documents. The problem began when local CAA officer noted that the F/O had UK CAA CPL and he was flying with an other european country registrated a/c. It took us more that 2 hrs to solve the situation. When I was initially trying to explain him the system of JAA-FCL he first looked at me like I would be completely out of my mind. Luckly my Spanish skills helped me a bit, while same amount of Portugese would have helped greatly... :p

[ElNino]

High altitud,
It's nothing to do with being a better pilot. It's simple economics. The IAA will validate a licence from anywhere in the world subject to the applicant doing the 14 JAR exams. However, there is a dispensation of a year before the exams need to be done. The Irish immigration authorities will also issue illegal work permits for these pilots (illegal, as work permits should only be granted to non-EU citizens if it is proven that there are no suitable applicants in the EU, which is patently not the case. Although perhaps ryanair have managed to prove there aren't enough people prepared to work for slave wages).
Hence ryanair take contractors from around the world, work them for a year until the dispensation expires and then discard them.
For ryanair this has many advantages: the pool of pilots they can draw on is effectively worldwide. More supply keeps wages down and as many of these pilots are from poorer countries, what are low wages to us are high to them. The vastly disparate group also reduces cohesiveness and unity, thus reducing the liklihood of forming an effective union.
Make no mistake, the employment market is global and too many people are prepared to work for little enough that we will all suffer eventually.
The only remedies are an end to the banana republic that is authority in Ireland or persuading the scab labour in ryanair to join a union.

And are you sure about the superiority of U2 compared to FR.

Are you for real? As an ex-ryanair colleague said to me recently: "ryanair isn't as bad you think, it's ten times worse."

[High_Altitud]

and I would say easy is not as good as it looks like...
HA

[fred peck]

Whatever the reason, every prospective pilot is told during their interview that they will be required to obtain a UK/JAA licence, and asked if they are happy with that.
They then sign a declaration to that effect.
QED

[Kraut]

And, again, the older pilots have it written in their contract, that a JAR licence is sufficient.
From my side that is enough attention on this issue.

[Flying Torquewrench]

MCDHU and JW411,

Sorry guys, but make sure what you post on here is right.

There is no problem at all for a CAA approved instructor to sign a Dutch license. In our company we have several guys with a Dutch license and so far there have been no problems with the Dutch authorities.

[JW411]

Flying Torquewrench:

"Sorry guys, but make sure what you post here is right."

I take great exception to that comment old son. I suspect that I have been signing Dutch licences a bit longer than you.

What you say may be the accepted practice in your (I assume) UK-based airline but it is a different matter on the other side of La Manche. I was employed as a UK TRI/TRE for many years for a Belgian airline.

Before JARs, I had authorisation to sign Dutch licences and did so on many occasions. Since JARs came into being I have been given specific instructions that I cannot do this any more. At the end of the test, I complete the JAR ATPL/TYPE RATING/SKILL TEST AND PROFICIENCY CHECK form. The Dutch pilot then has to take it (or post it) to Amsterdam to have his licence dealt with. The Dutch pilots are as incredulous as I am.

What you do in your empire is not necessarily what happens in the rest of the JAR region. In any event, I would take it as a kindness if you didn't tell me how to do MY job and perhaps concentrate on your own.

[Farty Flaps]

El nino has it bang to rights . Not all jar fcl departments are quite as jar as they should be. Back doors are wide open and the last line of defence is a company requirement that the jar licence is from a signatory state whose integrety is intact. That narrows it down to a couple in europe and one specifically you can bank on to follow the screening /requirement rules properly, and that is the UK jaratpl. end of. If were so bad go get a job in eurotrash land..Why worry about the uk. As for germany thats oly a bus ride from austria and lauda licensing corporataion, oops i mean caa. Allegedly.
Xenophobic..damm right. But not as xenophobic and protectionist as our colleagues in europe.
Licence Administration is a PC cover story to reintroduce some bladdy standards. And not soon enough I say.:ok::E.

And block that bladdy tunnel while we're at it.

[Flying Torquewrench]

JW411,

Fair enough, my apologies. Mistakenly thought that you worked for a UK outfit.:ugh:

Within the UK company i work for there is no problem for a UK TRI/TRE to sign a Dutch license. :ok:

[JW411]

Flying Torquewrench:

But that is exactly the point; the so-called common licence is no such thing in actual practice.

I can sign Swedish and Belgian licences but others can't. You can sign Dutch (and probably Swiss) licences but I can't (anymore). Just where exactly is the commonality?

I'm afraid there is no such thing as a standardised European bureaucrat! That is where the problem lies.

[boeing737-700]

I don´t see a problem with easyJet asking pilots to change their licences to UK state of issue.

As others have mentioned earlier, this has been the norm for years at easy. And they have paid for the conversion as well.

When I joined they said that f.ex. the Belgian CAA would not accept a UK examiner signing the licence.

Another example is Sterling Airlines in Denmark, they require all pilots to have a Danish JAR licence, who in my experience are a lot more difficult to deal with than the UK CAA.

Furthermore, in Denmark the yearly fee (yes you normally pay for a yearly renewal, not like a 5 year renewal in the UK) is almost identical to what you pay for 5 years in the UK. (Makes economical sense to have the UK licence, no)

My two cents worth,

[CarbHeatIn]

Don't Ryanair insist on converting to Irish JAR licences?