Crossair/Swiss Xenophobia...?

[126.9]

Resulatant to recent events in the (Oxymoron) Swiss Aviation Industry: foreign pilots employed by Crossair, and working on "B permits," (Swiss work permits) have had their premits delayed or issued for a reduced period of 6 months. No big deal; yeah. But ALL of these people are employed on permanent contracts in the company. All of these people are dedicated Crossair employees. All of these people will be up the creek without a paddle if their permits expire. Yes, there are a load of Swiss pilots out of work. But, all of these guys and ladies have Swiss ATPL's. All of them have given big-time to the company and country. Even if ignoring their advice over the years has resulted in yet ANOTHER fatal accident. And please don't shoot me down for saying that: I HAVE dated proof of experienced foreign crews warning the Crossair bosses of the liklihood, in my posession; as an ex-Crossair employee.

My objective here is not to shoot Crossair (as a company) down, my objective is merely to enlighten the aviation public on what is actually going on there. What has been going on there for years! If you think I'm grinding an axe: get your hands on a Crossair Operations Manual and read it; read their interperetation of the JAR's. Check out their FTL rules. Work out how a normal duty day can be 14 hours and how a split duty is easily over 24 hours for a 2 crew operation. How they bug radalt below minimums on all approaches, (Check Out the RECENT Accident) and how they emphasise welcoming the passenger aboard; over and above cockpit preparation checks and flight-deck crew briefings. I'm angry, yes. But not because I felt I had to leave them 2 years ago: because my mates working there as foreigners are in deep sh!t, and they don't deserve it! Because yet more innocent people have died, and once again they blame THE PILOTS!!! Was the Captain of the latest Crossair disaster *****? I don't know. But if he was, read his history in the company and ask yourselves; why the hell did they let him accumulate 19000 hours having failed numerous type ratings?

So, shoot me down...null

[Hold at Saffa]

foreign pilots employed by Crossair, and working on "B permits," (Swiss work permits) have had their premits delayed or issued for a reduced period of 6 months

Nonsense. One individual (a New Zealand national) has been reissued with a 6 month permit because he failed to apply for it correctly. Standard procedure.

But, all of these guys and ladies have Swiss ATPL's.
No they don't. They have validations based on foreign ATPL's. Full JAR-FCL licences are available to holders of validations on successful completion of JAR-FCL ATPL theory subject examinations, as is standard practice in all member states.
If you think I'm grinding an axe: get your hands on a Crossair Operations Manual and read it; read their interperetation of the JAR's. Check out their FTL rules. Work out how a normal duty day can be 14 hours and how a split duty is easily over 24 hours for a 2 crew operation.
Wrong again, I'm afraid.

Operations Manual Chapter 7A
Paragraph 7.2.9.4
Maximum duty time is limited to 12 hours and 6 sectors for a 2 pilot operation.
Under Swiss Air Law, an operation up to 14 hours is authorised and MAY be used in case of daily irregularity. The final authority lies with the commander.

As for split duty.
7.2.12.1
Two duties separated by a break. Maximum 4 sectors TOTAL. Second duty within a split shall consist of maximum 2 sectors, or one sector plus positioning/DH.
Maximum extension of duty is half the break where where the break period is between 6-7 hours, and two thirds the break where between 7-11 hours (or half the break if at least 7 hours of it fall between 2000-0800.
7.2.12.2
If the break covers 3 hours or more of the period 2200-0600 local, hotel accommodation shall be available for the crew.

Hardly a sweat shop, is it!
I'm angry, yes.
And anger does cloud the judgement, doesn't it. You do yourself no service, however, by spreading falsehoods and casting aspersions on the safety of an excellent operator based on, by your own admission, a fit of pique.

Like you, I am a foreigner. Unlike you, I work for Crossair as a commander, and am honoured by the opportunity to work for what is, in my considered judgement based on over 20 years command experience on 5 continents, a first rate airline, with excellent training and operational standards.

Crossair is a SWISS airline. How many non European foreigners do you see working for BA, AF, LH, SAS, KLM, AZ et al, who aren't citizens of the European Union at very least, or who've been granted validations based on foreign non-European licences? Not very many, that's for sure!

The dust is yet to settle on the changes occuring in Switzerland, and false accusations of Xenophobia are not only deeply offensive to those of us who work hard here every day and know it to be untrue, but are likely to damage the cause you claim to support.
http://www.airlinecrew.net/images/Airline_logos/crx.gif

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]

[126.9]

You poor, sad, uneducated tos...! If you're going to quote God's Swiss Law; get it right. I'm reading the FOCA Copy right now... 14 hours max for 2 pilots! Not to mention the 15 minutes check-out compensation Crossair claim to have.

One Kiwi you might know of screwed his B permit up; the rest are cra..... in their pants for the re-issue of their residents status! Not to mention South Africans, Canadians, Aussies and Eastern Europeans. If you knew the law governing the issue of a B Permit you'd know that it has a fixed period attached to it: 1 year buddy-boy! Only Crossair can arrange to have them shortened. Automatically converted to a C permit after 5 years uninterupted residence! Trust me; I KNOW! I have a C permit issued under the same circumstances!

ATPL's - they have!!! A validation under the JAR's is only valid for 12 months (most have been there longer), by which time the holder should have obtained a JAR-FCL. Again, I did; I know! The Crossair pilots however, hold SWISS NATIONAL Licences, issued by the FOCA for eternity!

Your Mickey Mouse OM: Chapter 7.2.12.1; do the math kiddo: more than a day, in layman's terms, or can't you calculate it?

20 years command on 5 continents: So who the heck do you think I am JUNIOR!

Foreigners in BA, AF, LH, SAS, KLM, AZ: Do you mean besides myself?

Crossair is a SWISS airline: operating out of BSL as it's headquaters; I'll remind you; Basel - Mulhouse - Freiburg. Besides ACTUALLY being in France, it is also in the EU!

false accusations of Xenophobia: talk to your colleagues mate, I spent long enough living in Basel not to be fooled by (as the Swiss say) "Brown Tongues" like you. I still live just a few kilo's from the place and socialise with many living there. Their sentiments are reflected in my posting.

I notice you pick your bullets well; no mention of why this pilot (whom, as we all on the inside know, would have been fired 18800 hours ago, had he been foreign) flew into the ground. Would you like me to post the official Crossair notices-to-crew on the subject?

I've read ALL your posts. Wind your neck in and face facts. Stop shooting at all and sundry who have an opposite view of Crossair to what you do. There are many ex and present Crossair employees out there who, funnily enough, know the truth. Now's the time to lay it bare. And believe me; I'm happy to post ALL the paperwork I have on Crossair.

[Hold at Saffa]

And believe me; I'm happy to post ALL the paperwork I have on Crossair.

Go ahead. Something tells me it'll be as easily discredited as the rest of your factually inaccurate rantings.
I still live just a few kilo's from the place and socialise with many living there. Their sentiments are reflected in my posting.
Who appointed you windbag-in-chief for the timorous?

I suspect you're probably a hack journo trying to trawl up a bit of smut, or perhaps an Aeropers agent provocateur. Either way, if you're pretending to be a pilot, you should go easy on the insuting outbursts...tend to rob you of credibility a bit, don't they! :rolleyes:

[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]

[crosspilot]

I'm also an ex-crossair pilot. Having read this thread a few times now, I'm inclined to express that it's about time somebody said and did something about it. The Crossair manner of blatant disregard for too many legal aspects to be covered here, their Xenophobic reaction to the foreign pilots permit situation, their bullying management pilots, the "almost landed on a motorway" stories, the ZRH near miss incidents, the LUG IGS procedure, the manner in which FOCA legislates to keep Crossair profitable, and worst of all, the way they cover up sub-standard performance for their kind until there's an accident.

In August of 2000, I warned AB of the fact that 1 accident in 25 years did not necessarily mean that it would take another 25 years to the next one. I told him that I thought it was clear that the next one was only around the corner. He replied that I was being "dramatic" about the issue.....

As for you Hold at Saffa: perhaps you should stay in the hold until you run out of gas.

[Brenoch]

I´m certain SAS also employes foreigners..

[Engineshutdown]

Permits have only been renewed for 6 months, mine has, I have been told (haven't seen it for some months-Swiss efficiency for ya!). I personally know of may others that have also only had their permit renewed for 6 months. But some I know have had there's renewed for the normal 1 year within the same time frame we're talking about :confused: Work that one out!
But this also affects EU citizens(Flight Attendants) working for Crossair but living in Zurich on permits. They have also only had there's renewed for 6 months, so they'll have to move to Basel to keep there jobs, however Crossair want them in ZRH :rolleyes:
The problem is that most of us came here when there were not enough Swiss pilots/Flight attendants for the jobs going and so that's where we came in, now all of a sudden there's extra Swiss people out of work and it seems the Government want to dictate who should have what jobs where. :rolleyes:
Is that democracy?
Others are affected ..engineers, office workers etc. problem is it would cost the company a considerable amout of money in retraining, which has not been allowed for in the new Airline budget.Don't know who is going to supply this money.
It's a wait and see game. :(

[Hold at Saffa]

Bogey.
I'm also an ex-crossair pilot.
Odd that being an EX-employee seems to be the pre-requisite for a chorus of "I told you so" and Swiss bashing. Truly disgraceful how the vultures circle following a tragedy.
The Crossair manner of blatant disregard for too many legal aspects to be covered here, their Xenophobic reaction to the foreign pilots permit situation, their bullying management pilots, the "almost landed on a motorway" stories, the ZRH near miss incidents, the LUG IGS procedure, the manner in which FOCA legislates to keep Crossair profitable, and worst of all, the way they cover up sub-standard performance for their kind until there's an accident.
Tabloid style 'grabs' of this kind are meaningless and devoid of any informed merit. I you have facts to back up your sour grapes, POST THEM, and we can debate the issues like professionals.

The problem is that most of us came here when there were not enough Swiss pilots/Flight attendants for the jobs going and so that's where we came in, now all of a sudden there's extra Swiss people out of work and it seems the Government want to dictate who should have what jobs where.
What exactly is the problem here, Engineshutdown? Jobs were offered in good faith as a function of supply and demand. Until the human race abolishes nation states, Ex-Patriot employment will always carry elemental risk in respect of tenure.

Is that democracy?
No, it's a fact of life in the Airline Industry. Jobs are few and far between and companies elsewhere are failing at an alarming rate with enormous amounts of enemployed pilots as a consequence.
Knowing this, the VP Flight Operations has already sent EVERY non-Swiss pilot, myself included, a letter several weeks ago reassuring us that our contributions are highly valued, and that our jobs are absolutely not at risk. Hardly the act of a Xenophobe!

The issue of B and C permits is a matter for the Cantons (States) and although an employer sponsors the application, one of the criteria for issuing a permit is the amount of unemployed and qualified Swiss citizens available to perform the same job.

How is this unique, unfair or Xenophobic?

[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]

[Robert Vesco]

As a non-Swiss pilot I can confirm the xenophobic feeling within Switzerland and Crossair and (let´s not forget) Swissair. Instead of joining another alliance SR (and thus compromising a small part of national pride) SR had to do it all by themselfs and look at the result.

I am an EU national, so I am forced to be based in Basel but I can not live in Switzerland. EU nationals working for Crossair have to live either in France or Germany. Welcome to paranoia-land !

The fact that Switzerland is not a member of the EU, NATO or even the UN is truely a joke and again gives a bit more background information about the way the Swiss view the rest of the world. The only reason why Switzerland is as rich as it is, is because it launders money like no other country in the world, however they prefer to call it “private banking.“

So, now let´s look at Crossair.

Tabloid style 'grabs' of this kind are meaningless and devoid of any informed merit. I you have facts to back up your sour grapes, POST THEM, and we can debate the issues like professionals.


Posting negative things about Crossair is not a bright idea, especially on a PUBLIC forum. On the CCP forum (PRIVATE !) a lot of critisism was posted and somehow ended up being published in the Swiss tabloid Blick. CCP´s reaction : they closed down the forum for about one week. Instead of better checking who has been issued a password, CCP´s reaction has been to ban the use of an alias in order to tone down critisism ! The company culture itself is not very open towards critisism either, so where should people go when they have new, or different ideas about procedures ? This is very unfortunate because the current transition LX is going through would be perfect to change a few totally obsolete rules and procedures Crossair still has in place. Procedures that no longer belong in a Western European national airline ! A lot of foreign pilots have been pushing for different procedures for a long time, but the Swiss regard them as ´trying to take over´ instead of accepting this constructive critisism to make LX a better and safer airline.

The seniority issue of merging the seniority list of SR and LX.

Although there is no official proposal on the table, most probable result will be that the two lists will be horizontally merged and that the last portion will consist entirely of LX pilots, as the LX pilots corps is larger then the SR pilot corps. Now let´s look at who will be at the bottom of that seniority list. Not Swiss pilots ! It will almost entirely be foreign DE captains and foreign FO´s. We will be the first ones sacrificed if the ´new Crossair´ enters more turbulent economic times. Don´t count on Swiss LX pilots to come to our rescue either ! They tell you straight in your face that “Swiss tax money should not be used to subsidise foreign jobs“ despite the fact that many have helped the company continue to grow and have established a live here. As Hold at Saffa said : Ex-Patriot employment will always carry elemental risk in respect of tenure. Thank you for the support Saffa !

the LUG IGS procedure It is still a total mistery to me why one of the richest countries in the world can not afford to build a decent airport at Lugano or Bern ! Why is there no ILS for runway 28 in Zürich, or ILS for runway 34 in Basel ? Too expensive, or maybe because then approaches will be flown over Swiss houses instead of German or French ? I suspect the later…

Switzerland truely is an island within Europe, if not the rest of the world, and (believe it or not) the Swiss are proud of it !

[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Robert Vesco ]

[penguin]

Robert Vesco:

>>Although there is no official proposal on the table, most probable result will be that the two lists will be horizontally merged and .... <<

What do you mean by "horizontally merged"? Is that DOH? LOS? Ratio?

[flufdriver]

I am following this debate with great interest, as I am a Swiss national employed as an airline Pilot in a foreign land.

Our airline is also experiencing difficulties and is "downsizing" the expat pilots are the first to go, one months notice, and any outstanding vacations. Bye, Bye and thank you for your contributions, you see it is not politically acceptable to have native pilots unemployed while keeping expats employed.

It is not easy to deal with this, especially so close to Xmas and/or if you have a Family, but we knew that is how it could go and now it has.
Life can be a bitch.

[Momo]

Well, I'm Swiss, so potentially biased. However, B permits are of course not specific to the airline industry. They are normally issued for 12 months and are renewed automatically, if you are with the same employer. Most EU country citizens automatically become eligible for C permits Some countries need 10 years. C permits give the same rights as Swiss citizens, except for voting.

Contrary to popular belief, especially among employers, B perimts are transferrable from one employer to another, on request. The receiving employer has to be willing to go through a very small amount of administrative hassle.

Also contrary to popular opinion, requests to move B permits from one canton to another, if you move house, are normally approved. Both cantons have to agree, but normally do so. You pay far lower taxes in Vaud than Geneva, so quite a number of people move, to the frustration of the authorities.

Momo

[Engineshutdown]

However, B permits are of course not specific to the airline industry. They are normally issued for 12 months and are renewed automatically, if you are with the same employer.

This is of course what we were all told when we were employed and had happened until now.Decisions were based on this fact, after all many were viewing this as long term and not contract employment!
Our airline is also experiencing difficulties and is "downsizing" the expat pilots are the first to go, one months notice, and any outstanding vacations. Bye, Bye and thank you for your contributions, you see it is not politically acceptable to have native pilots unemployed while keeping expats employed.

Problem with this is we are employed under a collective contract which nowhere states we require a B permit to be employed and unless we do something that results in disciplinary action of dismissal or we resign we are still employed under a valid contract until 2005! Crossair also still want all B permit holders to work for them (we don't cost them extra crew requirements/money due to military service, one reason) and so have no intention of giving us marching orders. The contract has specific steps to follow in the case of overstaffing, ie last on first off.
Also what about F/O's (on B permits)completing upgrade training who are required to sign a bond for another 3 years of service to the company or pay back about 60000 CHF-how is this handled.Under contract law you are required to give 3 months notice of termination of contract, how does this work out when none really knows what is happening at the moment?
There are still many issues related to this that I haven't mentioned here which also underscore just how difficult this situation is and will require further talks with the government.
As yet there has been no company wide statement or communication regarding this issue!
the VP Flight Operations has already sent EVERY non-Swiss pilot, myself included, a letter several weeks ago reassuring us that our contirbutions are highly valued, and that our jobs are absolutely not at risk.

Yes I received this letter also but this was sent out before the renewal of B permits became an issue as such!
Xenophobic?

Yes I have personally seen may examples and know personally of may more, I may write a book sometime about it! Some foreigners that live here for a long time sadly begin to lose the plot and start to become Swissnalised. However those Swiss that venture outside the borders are somewhat more open minded and become more rounded individuals.(Swiss people I know have said this to me!)
This all must be balanced of course with the fact that there is some form of Xenophobia present in most countries. ;)

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Engineshutdown ]

[Cisco Kid]

I think it´s important to realise that ALL rules are subject to change at the employers/governments/local authorities´convenience in Switzerland,
usually at very short notice & often illegally.The term Banana Republic is not inaccurate.

Couple this tendency with an unscrupulous Employer & general lack of sympathy for foreign employees (the feudal system)& you can expect the worse.My advice to any non Swiss LX employee if you can find another job do so.If not,fight any restrictions placed on your B permit, Swiss authorities have small balls & will cave in under collective pressures, particularly as they may have acted illegally.

Having said that, there are (were) Swiss Airlines,proper ones , who valued & defended the positions of their foeign employees only to lose the plot in moments of crisis, a Swiss characteristic it seems, oooohhh!am I being xenophobic.

[Hold at Saffa]

We meet again, Moriarty!
Having said that, there are (were) Swiss Airlines,proper ones
There still are, Cisco. And the one at the top of the tree is called:-
http://www.airlinecrew.net/images/Airline_logos/crx.gif (http://www.project-phoenix.ch/en/project/businessplan.html)

[Cisco Kid]

Hi Saff, don´t be silly,.. my little predictions are coming true! AD next to go...wanna bet ?.

Merry Christmas.

[Tricky Woo]

Mr Vesco,

The fact that Switzerland is not a member of the EU, NATO or even the UN is truely a joke and again gives a bit more background information about the way the Swiss view the rest of the world. The only reason why Switzerland is as rich as it is, is because it launders money like no other country in the world, however they prefer to call it “private banking.“

Quite so, quite so.

TW

[380]

envy is human, envy is human

[Hold at Saffa]

Dear, dear Cisco.
If AD goes, I will run naked the length of Bahnhoffstrasse, shouting in Swiss German "Cisco Kid For President".

Happy Christmas to you and those you love.

[romeowiz]

Oh oh Saffa - won´t you better run across the Bahnhofstrasse instead of its length? It is pretty cold outside and firing AD would not be unusual I think.

[Cisco Kid]

Dearest Saff,
I´ll be waiting for you at the Lake end with a fur coat (Fake of course) and a warming mug of "Gluhwein" something cooler if it´s in Spring. Actually it sounds pretty good..I´ll meet you half way if he´s only demoted....deal?

[Crosspilot]

:D Hold at Saffa

If AD goes, I will run naked the length of Bahnhoffstrasse

Best you keep your shoulders covered;
Lest your chips are shown in public! :D

[126.9]

I picked this up from another thread on PPRuNe which is discussing Ryanair's Charleroi base. It's a quote from the one and only very angry little man who's had a lot to say here and on other threads, in defence of the xenophobic Swiss reaction to it's foreign pilots. What a little gem. Does this guy contradict himself or what?

Hold at Saffa said: Flying from a Belgian base and not having a single Belgian pilot is just sensible.
"We would rather see Sabena destroyed than restructured."
Belgian Cockpit Association.

Thanks to the outrageous industrial behaviour of Belgians in recent history, I'd say your prospects are a bit grim for the next couple of centuries or so. But then again, you could always strike!



Go boy! :D :D :D

Edited for atrocious spelling! But only the ones I could spot...

[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: 126.9 ]

[Hold at Saffa]

It's a quote from the one and only very angry little man
Neither angry or little, I'm afraid. I stand by my comment 100%, and so it would seem do Ryanair. Naturally, my comments do not extend to all Belgians, but you have to admit, the available collective impression of the Belgian work ethic and propensity toward militancy is legendary.

Does this guy contradict himself or what?
No, actually. Not in the least.

[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]

[Bonaero]

And there we all were thinking (and hoping) you'd finally wound your neck in and buzzed-off! (PLEASE?)

[Raas767]

Commander Saffa!
I always enjoy your posts and at at the risk of drawing considerable fire from you, I have to say that if you think LX has any loyalty to you, your 20 years of flying command not withstanding, than you are smoking crack!
It may even promt you to rethink that whole union thing.
Merry Christmas. :D

[Brenoch]

I do think he is smoking crack... :D

[Hold at Saffa]

Hello Raas, and happy Christmas to you and your family too.

I am under no misapprehension about special treatment being given to me or any other non-Swiss pilot. Crossair is a commercial venture, not a sheltered workshop for airborne gypsies. The simple fact is, that there may well be a political dimension arising from such a large number of unemployed Swiss pilots consequencial to the failure of Swissair.

The initiator of this thread and others have claimed that the Swiss are somehow Xenophobes for seeking to protect the rights of their citizens. This is simply not true, and claims to the contrary are destructive.

The best prospects for employing the largest numbers of non-Swiss pilots for the longest possible time is to redouble ALL our efforts on making the expanded Crossair work, and work well.

[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]

[Crosspilot]

The initiator of this thread and others have claimed that the Swiss are somehow Xenophobes for seeking to protect the rights of their citizens

That's not the way I read it. I believe that what they are claiming is that the Swiss are Xenophobes! That they were xenophobic before the collapse of Swissair, that they are still xenophobic after the collapse and that they would be xenophobic whether or not Swissair or Crossair ever existed.

Furthermore; with comments like: ...a sheltered workshop for airborne gypsies... you seem to have taken a little of that xenophobia (or is it your own personal, racist background showing) on board yourself.

[Aviatrix69]

Thank you, Saffa, it had to be said!!

Quote:The best prospects for employing the largest numbers of non-Swiss pilots for the longest possible time is to redouble ALL our efforts on making the expanded Crossair work, and work well.

it's also the best way of keeping low-seniority swiss copilots in the job.